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The man at the center of the storms
Life under communism formed Cardinal Franc Rodé's pull-no-punches style
Oct. 28, 2009
Cardinal Franc Rodé (CNS)
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PDF versionROME -- This year marks the 20th anniversary of the fall of communism, a process in which Catholics often played a critical role. All across Central and Eastern Europe, stubborn pockets of the faithful, many essentially untouched by the reforming spirit of the 1960s, helped keep resistance alive. In so doing, they not only changed history, but they also helped shape the personality of the man currently at the center of two ecclesiastical storms.
Slovenian Cardinal Franc Rodé, 75, heads the Vatican’s Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life. That gives him jurisdiction over religious orders, and makes him the man behind two high-profile, and highly controversial, Vatican investigations: one of American women religious, the other of the Legionaries of Christ.
Both are currently underway, and it will be up to Rodé’s office -- if not necessarily to Rodé himself, since he’s already reached the usual retirement age -- to decide what recommendations go before the pope.
A Vincentian, Rodé comes across in person as charming, capable of putting people at ease in at least five languages. Yet to call him a controversial figure among many leaders in religious life, both men and women, is almost certainly an understatement.
Cardinal Franc Rodé talks with Fr. Peter-Hans Kolvenbach, superior general of the Jesuits, in January 2008. (CNS/Don Doll, S.J.)Since coming to his job in 2004, he’s become famous primarily for flinging down gauntlets. Well-known examples include a homily he delivered for the Jesuits in January 2008, bluntly demanding obedience to the hierarchy, and a lecture at Stonehill College in North Easton, Mass., in September 2008, raising the “necessary and brutal question” of whether important sectors of religious life have broken communion with the church, even if they’ve physically stayed in place. Rodé also recently raised eyebrows by asking the U.S. bishops to cough up $1.1 million to fund the investigation of American nuns (see story).
Yet for a man who once spent three years in an Austrian refugee camp after fleeing a hostile communist regime, the pique he elicits now probably seems tame by comparison.
“You have to see the problems directly, look the situation in the face,” Rodé said during an Oct. 3 interview with NCR in his Vatican office, linking his pull-no-punches style to his experience under the communists. “It’s useless to try to hide it, or to pretend that there’s no problem. It’s not only useless, it’s dangerous.”
Not extensions of Rodé
Rodé agreed to the interview on the condition that there be no questions directly about either the investigation of American nuns or of the Legionaries of Christ. He did not want to prejudge the results of either process, he said, or to usurp the roles of the people in charge. He was willing, however, to talk about his personal background, and his views on the general state of religious life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Read more about Rodé here: Cardinal Rodé photos should trigger some serious meditation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It would be a mistake to regard either investigation as an extension of Rodé’s personal interests.
In the case of women’s religious orders in the United States, sources told NCR that Rodé would not have initiated such an investigation on his own. Rather, they say, he was responding to requests from younger members of religious orders (expressed in part during the Apostolic Religious Life Symposium at Stonehill College where Rodé spoke), as well as pressure from American cardinals in Rome who felt that such a review was long overdue.
As for the Legionaries, an order founded in the 20th century and with a reputation for being conservative, Rodé is seen as a friend. Privately, he’s told people that he admires the “human qualities” of the Legionaries he’s met, as well as members of Regnum Christi, an affiliated lay movement. Given that sympathy, it’s widely regarded as improbable that Rodé is the driving force behind the apostolic visitation. The review was ordered in March by Pope Benedict XVI, after revelations that the founder of the Legionaries, Mexican Fr. Marcial Maciel Degollado, who died in January 2008, had carried on a long-term affair and fathered a child.
It’s entirely possible that neither investigation will be complete before Rodé steps down. A Vatican official told NCR that Rodé recently said he expects to be out of office by the time the review of women religious in America is finished, and hence someone else will have to deal with it.
That said, there’s little doubt that Rodé’s personal experience has influenced the way he’s tackled his Vatican post, including the two investigations.
Slovenia was among the most scarred corners of Europe during the Second World War. As the war wound down elsewhere, communist partisans loyal to Yugoslav strongman Josip Broz Tito hunted down the anticommunist “Slovene Home Guards,” regarded by the partisans, and by some Allied leaders, as pro-Nazi collaborators, but who professed allegiance to the Catholic church and to an independent Slovene state.
Many Catholics hoped the British would occupy Slovenia as an interim step toward independence. Instead, the British handed over roughly 12,000 imprisoned Home Guards to Tito. The disarmed troops were put on trains, taken home, and promptly shot to death. The mass graves have only recently been unearthed.
“We were on the losing side, and we were vanquished,” Rodé said. “We were like the South in the United States after the Civil War.”
After 60 years, the wounds are obviously still fresh.
“We put all of our hopes, all of our political and military faith, in the Anglo-Americans. In the end, they betrayed us,” Rodé said. Laughing, he added: “Anybody who reads just 40 pages of English history should realize that you can’t trust the English!”
With the handwriting on the wall, Rodé’s family followed tens of thousands of other Slovenes into exile. After spending three years in an Austrian refugee center (which Rodé described as a “concentration camp”), they eventually made it to Argentina. Just 13 at the time, Rodé said he never really fit in with the swelling Slovenian émigré community, whose ferocious anticommunism sometimes induced, he said, a one-sided view of the past.
“I wasn’t attracted to the somewhat closed, reactionary view of many anticommunist immigrants,” he said. “There were also errors on our side. The others, some of them to this day, insist that we were entirely right and the others completely wrong.”
No inferiority complex
Rodé eventually joined the Congregation of the Mission (usually known as the Vincentians), a community he had first known in Slovenia and then rediscovered in Argentina. He said the order’s simplicity and humility is still part of his spirituality, even if he doesn’t trumpet his affiliation.
“I don’t run around proclaiming the glories of being a Vincentian, but neither do I have an inferiority complex about it,” he said. “You know, if you listen to a Salesian, they hardly say anything without talking about Don Bosco! I don’t do that with St. Vincent.”
Rodé took perpetual vows in 1957, then headed off for studies at the Gregorian University in Rome and the Institut Catholique in Paris. Especially in Paris, Rodé was exposed to the new ideas swirling in Catholicism in the period before the Second Vatican Council (1962-65) and then during the council itself.
Unlike some freshly minted priests, however, Rodé seemed nonplussed by the experience. In his Stonehill lecture, he described testing the council’s reforming spirit in a series of pastoral assignments in the 1970s in Slovenia, where believers were struggling to survive.
“I soon realized that what I brought with me from my studies in Paris was of very little use,” he said. “I needed to be close to the people and to respect the traditional ways of expressing their faith.”
Looking back, Rodé believes that Vatican II, while designed to generate a moderate reform, instead triggered “the greatest crisis in church history.”
“In the 16th century, during the Reformation, many religious left the church and many convents were closed, but it was geographically limited, more or less to Northern Europe,” he said. “In the French Revolution, there was another catastrophe, but it was limited to France. The crisis after the Second Vatican Council, however, was the first truly global crisis.”
“We’ve paid a very steep price due to a secularized, worldly mentality,” he said.
That cost has been especially acute, Rodé believes, in religious life.
“The statistical data make the point,” he said. “Take the case of American nuns: There were 180,000 in 1965, and now they’re just 59,000. Most are getting older, and the vocations just aren’t there. We could say the same thing for the Jesuits, and for most of the great traditional congregations.”
Hope in new congregations
Ask Rodé where he sees signs of hope, and he almost invariably talks about new congregations founded in the last several decades, rather than established orders such as the Dominicans, Jesuits and Franciscans.
Cardinal Franc Rodé addresses the Apostolic Religious Life Symposium at Stonehill College in North Easton, Mass., Sept. 27, 2008. (CNS/Gregory L. Tracy)“Here in my office, I meet people every week who are founders, men and women, who come here with new projects, new ideas,” Rodé said. “Last week, a Brazilian with an angelic face was here. He’s founding a community that’s a new edition of the Franciscan spirit. They go around with the tonsure like St. Anthony, in sandals, dressed like the poor. They’re in the favelas, working with at-risk youth, the homeless, and they’re itinerant preachers.”
“The new congregations are a reaction against the tendency [in religious life] toward secularization,” he said. “They wear the habit, always; they insist upon prayer and eucharistic adoration; they insist upon the common life; and they also have a great, great focus upon poverty.”
As for the more established orders, Rodé says, “At least at the level of the governments of these congregations, the major superiors, there’s an awareness that we have to change.” He said he’s cheered by data, such as that contained in a recent report by the National Religious Vocations Conference in the United States, indicating that orders with a more traditional spirituality often have better luck attracting new members.
Rodé insists he still has great faith in the perennial vitality of religious life.
“Religious have always been, as the French say, le marchant … those who take the lead in a battle,” Rodé said. “Innovation, new ideas, fresh responses to the problems of the society and the times almost always come from the religious, and then later they’re taken over by the hierarchical church.”
“I think that the most dynamic element, the most innovative element in the church, where the new energy of the Spirit makes itself seen, is the religious,” he said.
Rodé clearly believes some kinds of innovation are better than others.
He cited the United States, which has two groups for women’s superiors: the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, which tends to represent the older and more liberal communities, and the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious, with the newer and more conservative groups. While member communities of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious represent 80 percent of American women religious, Rodé asserted, the communities of the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious have 80 percent of new vocations.
“In my opinion,” Rodé said -- with a twinkle in his eye, but obviously not entirely in jest -- “the spirit of Anglo-Saxon pragmatism for which you’re known ought to lead to the obvious conclusion.”
"As for the Legionaries, an
"As for the Legionaries, an order founded in the 20th century and with a reputation for being conservative, Rodé is seen as a friend. Privately, he’s told people that he admires the “human qualities” of the Legionaries he’s met, as well as members of Regnum Christi, an affiliated lay movement. Given that sympathy, it’s widely regarded as improbable that Rodé is the driving force behind the apostolic visitation. The review was ordered in March by Pope Benedict XVI, after revelations that the founder of the Legionaries, Mexican Fr. Marcial Maciel Degollado, who died in January 2008, had carried on a long-term affair and fathered a child."
He certainly IS a FRIEND of the LC, if not more:
"Religious centers typically send gifts to church officials in Rome at Christmas, said Father Giovanni Adena, an inactive priest and editor of Adista, an independent religious news service in Rome.
Adena considers the Legion extreme in gift-giving, but he said it has been encouraged by Cardinal Franc Rode, the Vatican prefect in charge of religious orders. “When Rode’s congregation asks groups for gifts, those who want the support will send money and presents. Rode loves this kind of stuff,” said Adena.
Rode has spoken glowingly of the Legion in speeches and sermons since Maciel’s dismissal. In 2007, according to a Legion insider, the cardinal was a guest at a Legion conference in Atlanta on family values, where Jeb Bush was keynote speaker. He said Rode went on to a Legion-paid vacation in Cancun.
Rode’s office said the cardinal was not in Rome, and unavailable for comment."
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/italy/090717/vatican-investigates-leg...
NO WONDER he didn't want ANY questions about the Legionaries of Christ during this interview.
""...he said. “I needed to be
""...he said. “I needed to be close to the people and to respect the traditional ways of expressing their faith.""
Is he showing respect to the ways of American nuns and their traditional ways of expressing their faith??? Without the American nuns, the Catholic school system, Catholic colleges for women, home missions, & Catholic health care institutions in the U.S. would've been non-existent.
By their works ye shall know them.
When I taught in a 'catholic'
When I taught in a 'catholic' high school here on long island new york,I was appalled at the attitude of the two orders of nuns teaching at the school..they seemed to care more for soup kitchens and being dem-symps then saving any souls or teaching values ! I was the only teacher that assembled a program that was anti-abortion..playing with the slides of a developing baby the song by Seals and Crofts..unborn child!Many of the orders have died out since they offered no real difference for the young ladies to choose from...after all the salvation army does just great with soup kitchens..but it takes guts to part with the establishment on so many issues of real imp;ortantance and the sisters at my school just did not have it....once they changed from their habits to contemp.dress it was the beginning of the end..and so be it..soon someday maybe when the brooklyn dodgers come back..Notre Dame will be investigated and ordered to remove its 'catholic' title ...........lets all wait and see.....Nino
You say "It takes guts to
You say "It takes guts to part with the establishment on so many issues of real importance..." This may be true, but it usually tends to be a subjective analysis. We don't often see the guts it takes when someone is taking a position that may not have ones sympathies. As a conservative I wonder if you are willing to acknowledge that, for liberals, it often takes guts to part with some of the decisions made by Rome or to stand up to some Religious authority. I tend to be left-of-center and when I have come to a different conclusion than the conservative leadership of The Church, it was never easy. Often times, it too had taken "guts". Fortunately, a good prayer life and the comfort of the Holy spirit was a big help. May you have a good prayer life and the guidance of the Holy Spirit as well. Peace be with you.
You're an "if its not my way
You're an "if its not my way its the hiway Catholic". My biological sister was a pro-life catholic until she experienced the same kind of condemnatory attitude you display. Your "modus operandi" is to wrecklessly slander. The title Catholic should be removed from your name.
Rodé took perpetual vows in
Rodé took perpetual vows in 1957, then headed off for studies at the Gregorian University in Rome and the Institut Catholique in Paris. Especially in Paris, Rodé was exposed to the new ideas swirling in Catholicism in the period before the Second Vatican Council (1962-65) and then during the council itself...
“I soon realized that what I brought with me from my studies in Paris was of very little use,” he said. “I needed to be close to the people and to respect the traditional ways of expressing their faith.”
CONSIDERING the fact that some of ther greatest theological minds of the 20th century were shuttling back and forth from Paris to Rome during Vatican II and community rooms at the Couvent S. Jacques (Dominicans) and the Centre Sevres (Jesuits) were buzzing with intellectual activity at the service of the Church, for Cardinal Rode to make a statement like this is more an indication of his own intellectual mediocrity and continuing need to assert his own superiority over "the people," than an accurate assessment of the quality of his teachers. It's kinda like someone sitting in a roomful of fully-lit electric light bulbs asking "WHERE ARE THE CANDLES?"
Unlike company man Cardinal Rode, I find that what I have brought with me from MY studies in Paris has been extremely valuable, if only to equip me with the tools to combat xenophobic, misogynistic hierarchs like himself by using what Pere Congar always used to refer to as "une bonne dose d'histoire!" (a good dose of HISTORY!)
"While member communities of
"While member communities of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious represent 80 percent of American women religious, Rodé asserted, the communities of the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious have 80 percent of new vocations."
This says it all. Critics of the current visitation ignore this crucial fact. Their congregations are dying. Young women are voting with their feet. The more traditional ones are growing, a number of them rapidly.
The "80 percent of new
The "80 percent of new vocations" will in no way --- no way whatsoever --- meet the needs of a church in which the great majority of Catholics, both young and old, are moving in one direction while the JPII priests and hierarchs are moving in a different one.
According to sociologists of religion James Davidson and the late Dean Hoge, if trends continue, there will be a point at which the church will see the widest "expectation gap" between an educated and informed laity demanding greater "say" in church governance and administration, on the one hand, and a more traditional/conservative ordained group demanding final "say" in such matters, on the other hand.
These "80 percenters" will make barely a dent in this growing scenario. In no way will they be able to staff Catholic schools, universities and colleges, hospitals, orphanages, and other outreach ministries.
But keep on a' dreamin' if it makes you feel good and smug!!!
Well, maybe after this
Well, maybe after this investigation, the LCWR will be no more?
Isn't it possible that the liberal leadership of the LCWR is actually oppressing the majority of nuns in the orders they represent with their liberal agenda? Should we as a Church not be concerned for the liberation of those women?
paulte on Oct. 28, 2009. You
paulte on Oct. 28, 2009.
You stated:
"Well, maybe after this investigation, the LCWR will be no more?
Isn't it possible that the liberal leadership of the LCWR is actually oppressing the majority of nuns in the orders they represent with their liberal agenda? Should we as a Church not be concerned for the liberation of those women?"
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Unlike priests who are assigned to parishes by their bishops, and unlike bishops who are assigned to dioceses by the Vatican, Religious men and women
ELECT their religous leaders----have done so for centuries and centuries and centuries.
Religious are not permitted to 'campaign' like political candidates do in American elections, but the religious know the work and achievements of those proposed to be their leaders. In fact, all of the finally professed religious attend the Chapters that nominate new perspective major superiors.
Individual members (along with a 'second' approval) comprise the slate of their nominees and then after a period of prayer, personal reflection---usually anywhere from a day to three days---the voting takes place.
By the way, the names of the Provincial/Super General elect are sent to the Vatican---to, golly gee, Cardinal Rode's office---where approval is given. A few more months pass before the newly elected major superior takes place. Her/his council members are nominated and elected the same way---and all names are submitted to the Vatican.
So if religious with a 'liberal agenda' (higly suspect in the Vatican since 1978) is placed in authority----guess who has to accept, at least, partial blame? THE VATICAN!
Good one LittleBear! Paulte
Good one LittleBear! Paulte should remember that the "truth shall set you free"!
I concede one point. I
I concede one point. I shouldn't have said majority. But there were a minority of nuns oppressed by these women. I know of what I speak since I was a school teacher in a Catholic school where at least four of the nuns who still wore habits hated their order, the Dominican Sisters of Sparkill, NY. We were very good friends. The principal & her assistant both Sparkills were liberal loons. One of the laywomen who taught there and I used to refer to the two of them as "Peace & Justice!"
As far as the Vatican approving things, I know things were not good in terms of authority under JPII but Benedict is a new beginning and Rode has just been there under him.
I will just tell you that as
I will just tell you that as a member of a congregation that is represented by LCWR, the answer is no.
""Young women are voting with
""Young women are voting with their feet. The more traditional ones are growing, a number of them rapidly.""
And what about the disturbing lack of priestly vocations? What is more important in the life of the Church and in Catholics...a celebate male clergy or regular Eucharistic celebration??
Let's see...Catholic priests can't be married, but "priests" who convert from other Christian religions can bring wife & kids with them...married deacons whose wives die can't remarry...
Why would a woman want to be allied with and under the thumb of hierarchy who have no respect for women? And they were made in the image of God...
The Church is being split...and the hierarchy are blind to the real resons.
“The statistical data make
“The statistical data make the point,” he said. “Take the case of American nuns: There were 180,000 in 1965, and now they’re just 59,000. Most are getting older, and the vocations just aren’t there. We could say the same thing for the Jesuits, and for most of the great traditional congregations.”
Why do we assume that the energy of Religious Life is in numbers? It's about discipleship, not book-keeping. And the women I know in Rel. Congregations who are seeking to minister in present day North America are, IMNSHO, the Creme of the Crop".
Presbyter simplex on Oct.
Presbyter simplex on Oct. 28, 2009.
You stated:
"While member communities of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious represent 80 percent of American women religious, Rodé asserted, the communities of the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious have 80 percent of new vocations."
This says it all. Critics of the current visitation ignore this crucial fact. Their congregations are dying. Young women are voting with their feet. The more traditional ones are growing, a number of them rapidly."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Yes, but the numbers of young women who actually stay to profess Final Vows and stay after that---is not so great!
I personally know of two young ladies who entered Mother Angelica's community (a cloistered group) after high school. One lasted 3 years after professing first vows and then left (she had to be hospitalized for double pneumonia and for being generally physically run-down). The other gal lasted until she was ready to profess final vows---and then she left.
She stated that she felt that she was surrounded by women who needed to be in mental health institutes. And she was afraid that she would be just like them. So she left.
Both are getting their lives back together---going to college and completing their education. They don't advise this life-style for any but the very strong mentally and physically.
Here we go Little Bear
Here we go Little Bear boviating again are we? Two disgruntled ex-members does not paint a complete picture. You seem to have a great affinity for this form of reasoning. If that weren't enough you fall back on emotive discourse seems to be another one of your specialities!!
If these communities do not have commited members why are they turning away new members or building new convents? How about the Sisters of Life? How about the Dominicans of Nashville? Or the Francisican Sisters of the Renewal? Little Sisters of the Poor? One could go on and on! If one visits these convents not many grey heads like us!! Young vibrant and intelligent!!!
Now everyone don't expect Little Bear to respond to my argument like I responded to her's. She'll just threaten and bloviate some more. Blah. Blah. Blah. Blah. Blah. Blah. So sad!
This is an astounding story
This is an astounding story and coupled with the majestic photos it makes for such a monarchical view of the church as to be mind-boggling. Here is a man who likes finery, likes the long ago kingly medieval church of fur-lined long capes and gowns, rings, attendants, princely vestments. He's everything the Second Vatican Council opposed. And he knows it; he makes no bones about it. The last two popes have done well putting such a man in charge of religious, especially women religious. He not only wants the nuns back in the semi-cloistered convents doing priests' ironing and washing he wants the whole church to return to the 1950's, the church as he knew it as a boy, the church of cover-ups, the church of his compatriots in Rome.
Do you think he will start
Do you think he will start burning deemed heretics at the stake? History supports such assumed infalibility by the Church. Did the Church do rightly or wrongly with heretics?
The Bishops of Vatican
The Bishops of Vatican council II yanked women religious in one direction in the 60's and 70's . The resulting attrition of vowed Sisters as well as greatly decreased vocations was the grave and exceedingly painful result. Nevertheless, the Sisters, though diminished, persisted in obedience to their Bishops.
Now comes some men of the church who have decided to yank them around again! The result is and will continue to be further damage.
Yanking back and forth and the slanderous comments of the propnents of such vile manipulation is cause for damage. It is the way you kill fish on a hook. It is tyranical.
Religious allegiance or not, women do not leave their rights at the church door.
Exactly correct, it's called
Exactly correct, it's called abuse.
You say "women do not leave
You say "women do not leave their rights at the church door". This is true for most of us in many ways. I cannot leave my experiences and what they have taught me at the church door. I cannot leave my God-given intellect at The Church door. And, finally, I cannot leave what my heart is telling me at The Church. Thinking leaving all of this at The Church's door was what God expected of me, I spent years trying to do just that. The results were disastrous. Yet, with the help of The Holy Spirit, I have reclaimed my right to think, feel and, at times, descent. And my relationship with Jesus and, in an odd way, The Church is stronger for it.
The Church is not a
The Church is not a democracy. It is a monarchy. Christ is the King. If you do not like being beholden to a king, put your allegiance elsewhere. Don't use the name Catholic in describing yourself when you disagree so strongly with its tenets. I don't know what it is with you radicals---all you want is to destroy what is good in order that you may feel justified in your tolerance of immorality.
"Christ is the King." So
"Christ is the King."
So true.
If only our popes and hierarchs would remember this truth ---
--- instead of prancing around in their gold capa magnas, dainty red shoes, purple rings, monarchical robes, ad nauseum.....
Far from Christian.....
....but Roman Imperial to a tee!
Signed,
Joseph Jaglowicz
Disgusted Catholic
Where do you get the idea
Where do you get the idea monarchies are allowed to abuse? They are not. Perhaps this is one for the world court at The Haigue. Christ is the King of kindness, compassion, and forgiveness. Christ is the Suffering Servant. Christ is not the Lord abuser of power and priviledge.
Not being a democracy is not an exuse for abuse.
We believe in one Holy NOT unholy/unhealthy Catholic church.
Perhaps it is your version of catholicism that destroys what is good in order that YOU feel justified in your tolerance of sexist oppression. Unattended secret pervisions of any kind such as priest pedophelia and wicked visitations are not what true Catholicism defends.
Defending the indefensible by calling it a holy catholic monarchy flies like a brick.
You are absolute correct,
You are absolute correct, Christ is the King. Please let some of those in Rome in on this secret.
"“I don’t run around
"“I don’t run around proclaiming the glories of being a Vincentian, but neither do I have an inferiority complex about it,” he said. “You know, if you listen to a Salesian, they hardly say anything without talking about Don Bosco! I don’t do that with St. Vincent.”
Well, I think you just did.
Given Rode's penchant for the
Given Rode's penchant for the monarchical, one must note the glaring disparity between this man and his religious community's founder.
A scandal, to be sure!!!
Given the LCWR member
Given the LCWR member communities penchant for the heretical, one must note the glaring disparity between these women and their religious community's founder(s)/foundress(es).
A scandal, to be sure!!!
Do you spend a lot of time
Do you spend a lot of time off-topic?
What you don't know can hurt
What you don't know can hurt you and others. Study for a few decades before you speak about things you don't know anything about.
Give 'em hell, Rode' is all I
Give 'em hell, Rode' is all I have to say!
paulte'
I'm sure he can. But that's
I'm sure he can.
But that's not the way Jesus behaved during his ministry --- except, of course, toward the religious authorities who put pomp and form above Godly substance.
"Give 'em hell!"
Where's Jesus in this exclamation???
(ANSWER: He's not.)
Jesus told someone, "Get
Jesus told someone, "Get behind me, Satan!" Close enough for paulte!
Paulte you and I both know
Paulte you and I both know that someone was none other than Peter, he of the keys. Maybe Jesus was being prophetic.
If Jesus can use that kind of
If Jesus can use that kind of language then so can paulte! Peter needed a good kick in the pants now & then as scripture shows. Even St Paul had to take him to task. Like my namesake, I've taken John Paul II to task on a few occasions.
Peter died a martyr, choosing to be crucified upside down because he felt not worthy to be crucified as his Savior was. And who among us cannot relate to Peter's denial of Christ, at least in terms of doing something stupid and cowardly and then instantly regretting it?
People always confuse Christianity with sentiment. This is a liberal ploy. Compassion is a Christian attribute but it must be properly applied. One should show compassion for the repentant sinner for instance. But the spiritual works of mercy remind us to admonish the sinner! Liberals validate people in their sinfulness. Christians validate what God has created in the human person, not personalities deformed by sin.
"Christians validate what God
"Christians validate what God has created in the human person, not personalities deformed by sin."
Exactly.
No wonder your blogs are so vile. Faulte paulte's personality is deformed by sin!
The Church actually says that
The Church actually says that not everyone should be practicing all the spiritual works of mercy because they are not all competent to do so, and perhaps you should consider that admonishment before you assume you are one considered competent.
The Church, however, says that all should be doing the corporal works of mercy.
Be that as it may, I do make
Be that as it may, I do make a point of instructing the ignorant but don't make a habit out of admonishing sinners! I agree with the adage that people in glass houses should not throw stones!
I love that response to
I love that response to church teaching: "Be that as it may"...
The best of all the Peter
The best of all the Peter 'learns and grows up stories' is Acts 10. You should read it Paulte. You might learn something important about the application of the spiritual works of mercy.
As I recall, our Lord said
As I recall, our Lord said that to the first Pope.
He said that to Peter,
He said that to Peter, considered by Catholic tradition to be the first pope.
"American cardinals in Rome "
"American cardinals in Rome " according to this report brought pressure for the review of American Religious Sisters and their lifestyle.
"American cardinals in Rome. " Now, who might they be, I wonder?
Law, Levada, Rigali....anyone
Law, Levada, Rigali....anyone I missed?
Rigali is in Philadelphia.
Rigali is in Philadelphia. Last time I checked, Philadelphia is not Rome.
Well, of course he is...but
Well, of course he is...but he pontificates like he's already in Rome...it won't be long.
Archbishop Raymond L. Burke
Archbishop Raymond L. Burke
Rode touts the austere life
Rode touts the austere life of the traditionalist religious communities but in looking at the photos of him processing with his long trained red vestment and pomp and ceremony gives testimony to the hypocrisy of the Catholic hierarchy. As a cradle Catholic in my senior years I find myself losing all respect for what I always thought was the true Church. There seems to be nothing remotely evident of the teachings of Jesus reflected in today's Church. Pope John XXIII had the right idea. He spawned a new era of God's greatest commandment but this idea has since been gutted to the extent that we who were enthusiastic participants of the post Vatican II Church cannot find any evidence of love or compassion in John Paul II or Benedict's church. It's time they put their words into actions, give up their fancy trappings and live like Jesus did.
As another cradle Catholic in
As another cradle Catholic in my senior years, I agree with you absolutely. And as to Cardinal Rode, he says "...the order’s simplicity and humility is still part of his spirituality..." Flaunting his rediculous clothing sure doesn't seem to support his "simplicity and humility" - unless I misunderstand what those terms mean. What was it Jesus said about the dress of the Pharisees?
The pomp, ceremony &
The pomp, ceremony & circumstance renders respect & devotion to God. The robes & all that are designed for worship, not personal use. You Conciliarists sound like a bunch of Marxists which I'm sure a lot of you are! Before you start throwing rocks at the hierarchy, get rid of your cell phone!
Jesus says in Matthew (twice,
Jesus says in Matthew (twice, in fact), "I want mercy, not sacrifice."
Elsewhere, the Lord says, "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."
To associate ecclesiasical finery with God's desires is rubbish.
Rode's penchant for all this fancy crap is not just shameful and disgusting. It is scandalous.
No matter what you say, the
No matter what you say, the intent of the finery like a gold monstrance is to show honor to God. How do you know what God thinks btw? Even if God could care less, a person like Rode' in his finery is following his conscience! So there, Vatican IIer!
But as St Thomas would say, On the contrary, God does expect us to show him respect in all ways. Didn't Christ tell his disciples to pay attention to him & not the poor since "The poor will always be with you."
"...the intent of the
"...the intent of the finery..."
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
"How do you know what God thinks btw?"
I know based on what the Son of God revealed to us by word and deed in the gospels.
"Rode in his finery is following his conscience!"
Rode's behavior shows us just how far removed he is from the poor Son who trod the highways and biways of Palestine. Rode's ecclesiastical dress and what it represents suggests a poorly informed conscience if the Lord's example in the gospels is any indication.
"Didn't Christ tell his disciples to pay attention to him & not the poor...?"
No, Christ told his disciples in word and deed to go out among the poor to proclaim the Good News and show them God's unconditional love. "When I was naked...When I was thirsty...When I was imprisoned..." At no time did the Lord tell his disciples to wear imperial robes and behave in imperial fashion. Indeed, Jesus instructed his disciples to take not much more than the clothes on their backs during their journeys.
Instead of defending a church monarchy with all its imperial trappings, paulte, I suggest you pay more attention to the gospels.
"I want mercy, not sacrifice." Jesus wants mercy toward the poor, not the imperial crap we see flowing out of the Vatican.
Christianity challenges us to get our priorities right, paulte!
Funny isn't it that when it
Funny isn't it that when it comes to conservatives, conscience doesn't seem to apply! The Liberal Vatican II set is always touting conscience but it only seems to apply to their dissent on defined Church teaching. And of course, they always know the mind of Jesus!
In one of Christ's parables, a man was reprimanded for not wearing his wedding garment.
As far as wealth goes, it is not something wrong. Freely chosen poverty as well as celibacy has a value but neither is expected of everyone. The world wouldn't function very well if everyone was poor & it would die out if everyone was celibate! In a free market economy there is a need for some concentration of wealth in order for the system to work. It is also possible for a person to have wealth but be detached from it. Look at Lady Marchmain in "Brideshead Revisited."
It is one thing if people are poor because they literally have no opportunities but it is another if people are poor because they are stupid, lazy & undisciplined.
Paulte, here is what the
Paulte, here is what the current concentration of wealth has meant for our twenty somethings, about 40% of recent college graduates are unemployed, part timers, or underemployed. These are not stupid, lazy and undisciplined young adults. They are our next generation whose dreams are being destroyed so Wall Street can concentrate more wealth.
If you want to wax eloquently about the wonders of capitalism, feel free to do so, I only ask you don't ignore the very real shadow side.
C1, There is no paradise on
C1, There is no paradise on the earth. But in terms of managing the earth down here, people are better off overall with a free market system than with a socialist system where everyone is poor.
As far as the college kids go, maybe the free market is saying too many people are going to college nowadays! They've dumbed down the standards in colleges too! How many young college graduates have ever read a classic let alone 100 of them? Let these college kids spend more time studying & less time binge drinking! That's paulte's advice to them!
"[Liberals] always know the
"[Liberals] always know the mind of Jesus!"
It's really quite simple, paulte: Just peruse the gospels.
Jesus himself said that those
Jesus himself said that those were not the kinds of things that showed our respect and devotion. He wants your heart and he wants that heart to love others. It's all there to read in the New Testament.
Even the lilies in the field
Even the lilies in the field are more beautiful than these...
Cardinal Rode expects us to
Cardinal Rode expects us to believe that it was not his initiative behind the investigation of American nuns. Who’s he kidding? He claims that the investigation stems from the concerns of younger (meaning, inexperienced, immature, not even born until after Vatican II) members of these new conservative religious orders and the few American cardinals in Rome. Where does that leave the US bishops? Apparently they don’t run the US dioceses at all. His Vatican office too must be taking its marching orders from the younger members of new conservative orders and the likes of Cardinal Law and who else, Cardinal Levada? I find that explanation pathetically disingenuous, especially since it comes from a man who appeals to his past experience of oppression in his admiration of straight forward honesty. The pragmatic conclusion that I come to with regard to the increase in vocations that Rode finds so heartening is that 80 per cent of minuscule is still minuscule. Check the numbers Cardinal, and check their level of education. You are not making nearly the headway that you think you are, pragmatically speaking that is. One other pragmatic point. Wait to see how these younger, concerned members of new religious orders fare after they tire of doing the bidding of dominating, arrogant male clergy and decide to follow Christ instead by developing a ministry of their own. Cardinal Rode seems blinded by the good old days when nuns cooked for, cleaned for, and wiped the noses of priests, bishops, cardinals, and popes and were satisfied with those menial tasks. Spiritual maturity demands more, and the US nuns have given in full measure. If Rode wants to keep nuns down on the farm, he better insist that these concerned new members of the new religious orders remain uneducated. Obsequiousness demands it.
"It's time they put their
"It's time they put their words into actions, give up their fancy trappings and live like Jesus did."
That'll be the day!!!
Cardinal Rode is a coward and
Cardinal Rode is a coward and a bully! He needs to be retired as a result of his damaging and backward thinking policies. This is but another clear example of how much damage these right wingers have visited on the People of God and their Church. I am also encouraged by his actions. These actions are expediting the decay of the hierarchy and hence, the Church of Rome. Reasonable and decent people, both Catholic and non-Catholic, believer and non-believer, have had it! The actions of the boys in Rome have been so egregious and arbitrary that most people have lost their patience. Rode is just the type of person that will bring this corrupt and decaying system to an end. His hatred for progressive thinking women is obvious but his tenacious battering of those who hold very different views on what it means to be Church, will be the final nail in his coffin. Shameful and disgraceful behavior, Cardinal Rode.
Absoluely true! And, hurrah
Absoluely true! And, hurrah for you for saying it Chris!
"Simplicity and humility"
"Simplicity and humility" part of his spirituality? With a 40-foot cerise silk train and acolytes bowing and scraping fore and aft? Vestments glittering with gold embroidery? The personal friend of Marcial Maciel and the recipient of gifts from Legionaries of Christ, solicited and unsolicited but always expensive? And now he's "investigating" them? Give me a break.
John Allen should be too experienced to be charmed by this ecclesiastical equivalent of Zoltan Karpathy, "oozing charm from every pore," oiling his way around the floor of the Vatican and right-wing venues, looking for witches to hunt and heretics to sniff out.
Today's hierarchy have absolutely no connection with Jesus, the poor and the marginalized and the sinful he associated with, or with the church he founded. I am disgusted by and ashamed of the lot of them.
Very well put. I don't know
Very well put.
I don't know whether to cry out in anguish at these peacocks, or to be glad that they are hastening the inevitable dissolution and ensuing fresh start the Church so desperately needs.
Rode is of the same ilk as
Rode is of the same ilk as the pope. As young people they were raised under Nazism and/or Communism. Although they are highly educated and speak many languages, the 'isms' had major influences in their personalities, their interpersonal skills and the way they deal with the opposite sex, even if they did not willingly accept the philosophies of the 'isms.'
It was probably very confusing, especially for the young, future pope, who witnessed the German bishops submitting to Hitler at one point.
These men should be pitied, but, of course, they should be in charge of nothing.
At the end of the interview above, Rode effectively says of the women religious, 'by their fruits you shall know them.' Well, we have seen the fruits of the all male hierarchy, chosen with no input from the laity. A Canadian Bishop was recently found to be deeply involved in child pornography and we still have the fallout in the US from the scandals here.
In the early church the laity had a major voice in choosing church leaders. Pope Gregory I, 590 to 604, coined the phrase, "servant of the servants of God" to describe the papacy. He believed in the old Roman adage, "What touches all, must be approved by all," i.e., everyone affected by a decision should have a seat at the table. The laity should have a seat at the table to choose our own church leaders. The incestuous way that they choose each other for leadership positions has not worked; it has brought scandal and corruption to the church. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
In the history of the church there have been corrupt popes and popes selected through nepotism. In the 1300s there was a pope in France and a pope in Rome at the same time. There were two popes for 31 years, then a third pope was elected when a general council was assembled to solve the matter. However, neither of the deposed popes stepped down, so there were 3 popes for a while.
We do not have to be tied directly to the "Roman" Catholic Church to be Catholic. (The "Roman" Empire ceased to exist some time ago.) An argument can made that due to nepotism, corruption, etc., there is no true papal line back to Peter, anyway. We need to choose our own bishops and be able to hold them accountable. We should no longer claim connection to, or support, the "Roman" Church.
You're very arrogant in your
You're very arrogant in your comments about Pope Benedict XVI. I know nothing about Rode except that he is doing what the instant saint should have been doing from day 1. If Sr Theresa who showed disrespect to Pope John Paul II had been expelled from her order back then I doubt we would have nuns today escorting women to abortion clinics!
Pope Benedict is a highly intelligent man; he is eminently qulaified to be Pope and he was elected Pope. In him we probably have the most intelligent man that we ever had in the papacy. He is a true defender of the faith. For you to try to disparage him based on what he had to endure during the Nazi regime shows how very stupid the lot of you Liberals who post on this forum really are!
The liberals in the Church are nothing but a scourge & a plague. You are a Fifth Column and you all will pay the price in the flames of Ghenna! For all your "Jesus" talk, you are the type of people Christ was talking about when he said you would be vomited from his mouth!
Paulte you said "The liberals
Paulte you said "The liberals in the Church are nothing but a scourge & a plague. You are a Fifth Column and you all will pay the price in the flames of Ghenna! For all your "Jesus" talk, you are the type of people Christ was talking about when he said you would be vomited from his mouth!"
You words are colder than lukewarm when it comes to Jesus and vomit. Obviously, His standard of Love, forgiveness, and gathering-in has no sway with you and others in the church and hierarchy like you.
Your above refenced tirade is the "exemplum horrible" of what your brand of corruption in religion can dangerously and destructively become.
The foul odor of your words are vapors from the dead corpse you choose to believe in. Death envies life and wants to possess it. Springtime and Easter leap from its grip like gazzelles. The spirit of your death-dealing words is is so profoundly ugly that it makes one wonder if it does not hearken from the flames of Ghenna that you seem to know so well.
Once in a great while paulte
Once in a great while paulte makes a mistake. The vomit comment didn't really apply here since Jesus said "Be hot or cold but if you are lukewarm, I will vomit you from my mouth!" And I think that everyone here will agree (no matter what you think of my posts) that paulte can't be described as lukewarm!
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