On banning girl altar servers

Actually, the cathedral website promotes, not the exclusion of girls for its own sake, but the differentiation of roles based on gender, with girls serving as sacristans. The justification for this differentiation is the success of the Diocese of Lincoln, where priestly ordinations are said to abound, and the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist, a relatively new community that has an average age of 28 and more than 100 members. I don't happen to agree with this differentiation, but I wonder why some communities are wildly successful and others are dying out. - Monica.
(P.S. No one is trying to take the right to vote away form anyone.)

I wish to make a proposal that should resolve all the lingering tensions within the Catholic Church between orthodox Catholics and 'spirit-of-Vatican II' Catholics. I suggest that Pope Benedict XVI and all Catholics who wish to join him, surrender all the institutional organs of the Church (buildings, parishes, universities, all property, the Vatican itself, Catholic publications, etc.) to the 'spirit-of-Vatican II' Catholics to do with as they please. Give them absolutely everything they want. The Pope and his orthodox followers could then quietly practice the faith in house churches free of all the wealth and trappings of 'churchiness' which are so coveted by the 'spirit-of-Vatican II' Catholics. The 'spirit-of-Vatican II' Catholics would then control all the levers of 'Church' power as they have always demanded. They will hae everything ... except the successor of Peter; we orthodox would keep him, but nothing else. He, and the Christ of whom he is the vice-regent, is all we need.

Phoenix is merely following in the wake of the Arlington VA diocese.
Last fall Fr. Michael Taylor, Administrator of Corpus Christi Mission,in South Riding, Virginia (Arlington diocese), announced to the community that he would no longer invite young girls to be altar servers. The present female altar servers could finish out their term but after that all girls were declared “Persona Non Grata” for service at the Lord’s Table. At a subsequent confirmation in the parish, Bishop Loverde was handed a letter signed by parishioners and CTA members asking him to reverse this decision. There has been no response or reaction to the letter.

What will it take to mobilize women in the RC church ? I just don't get it. In response to another article last week about domination submission that woman in the general population have internalized, where I stated that it was true of women in the RC church as well, someone took great offense to my remark and yet here is another example of how young girls are "oppressed" by the institutional church.

Whew, I almost thought we were going to go 48 hours without someone in the church hierarchy doing something foolish and embarrassing.

The boys in that diocese should refuse to serve. Solidarity.

I can't believe this is happening! What a sad time in the Catholic Church. I guess the 'boys club' is feeling a little threatened.

I can't believe this is happening! What a sad time in the Catholic Church. I guess the 'boys club' is feeling a little threatened.

Bravo for the rector at Phoenix Cathedral!

Interesting that you mention the right to vote because the Catholic Church was one of the major institution that opposed it. The hierarchy has shown over and over again what they think about women despite their supposed devotion to Mary.

"...because the church and the world are moving toward the full equality of women (the world usually more quickly than the church), and there's no going back."

Unfortunately, I have to disagree. Women have been de facto chattel in the church as in the wider society/civilization since time immemorial. The women's movement towards equality does not seem to be reflected in the Catholic Church nor constitute a significant lever towards equality and/or inclusion. Worse, they are the 'breeding stock' and 'gates of hell' diversions from saintly focus of male determination. And the women have gone along with it - taking up the slack from the men in administrative and servitude (oops, I meant service) roles that men have found demeaning and irrelevant to efficacy.

Has anyone found a substantive rebuttal to the 2004 letter of Card Ratzinger on "...the collaboration of men and women in the church and in the world" ?
What religious order or congregation, male or female with stand....?

Do you want the really bad news? A Cathedral rector is a guy on his way up!!! phew..of course it Arizona with mostly snow birds for residents who could care less...and Latinos who have ignored the hierarchy for centuries..

The trouble with all these arguments, on either side, is blaming the Holy Spirit for the obvious actions of human beings. How dare we presume to know God so well that we can say what He/She/It would want. Put the blame where it belongs, and in the instance of reinstating any ban against girls or women in the Phoenix cathedral, blame the rector and his boss, the bishop. Also blame Benedict because he has followed John Paul II in setting the the whole tone of this restoration to the dark Pre-Vatican II times. Benedict has chosen to preside over a dying church. And the lay people of the Catholic Church should not sit or stand--or kneel--meekly by and accept those royal decrees with no input of their own, nor should the lay people of the diocese of Phoenix accept the sexist decrees of their cathedral rector. The church might not need go so far as revolution because we have the grand model of Reformation set by Martin Luther, John Calvin, and company. We already know it can be done. We already know it works true to the spirit of Jesus. And we know it should be done. It's up to the people who warm the pews and drop their money in the baskets to make sure their voices are heard--loud and clear--and quit silently accepting these outrageous royal decrees from a monarchical hierarchy.

photos taken a month ago in the Cathedral in Ciudad Juarez

http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlesjscanlon/sets/72157627241910949/detail/

come to Mexico, and practice our Faith in her fullness, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, housing the homeless, comforting the dying, healing the sick, bringing joyful hope to the downhearted, bringing real Good News to the poor. And watching the Altar Girl in the Cathedral load the censor from the incense boat.

I disagree with the premise of the writer, "Despite consistent moves toward more openness and acceptance (of laity, of women, of gays and lesbians) in both society and the church, these folks fail to recognize this movement as coming from the Holy Spirit."
I am not against female altar servers. I am against "political correctness" and the consistent undermining of the theology of the faith. The devil, if you believe in one, was predicted to attack the Church on all fronts. I see the endless media tirades against the doctrine and traditions of the Church. If one studies history, the pagan religions of the Roman Empire had gender and sexual equality. They also attacked the Church. You should do a study of the early church, without the psycho-history and conjecture.
I believe that the secular attacks by Hollywood and the media on a persistent basis has done great damage to society in general.

the church will go back to a time when no laity were allowed on the altar

Now then, women were allowed on the altar when I was first an altar boy in the late 1960's. Indeed they were indispensable. They (under auspices of the "Rosary Altar Society") laundered the altar linens and the washable vestments.

That is what the rector in Phoenix sees women's roles as; to do his cooking and his cleaning.

This comes in the same diocese of a Bishop (Olmstead) that excommunicated a nun heading an ethics committee at the once Roman Catholic St. Joseph Hospital in Phoenix. It was also a female Marquette University theologian who elegantly explained why the nun and not Olmstead used correct Catholic Theology. MOre misogyny pure and simple!!! This is why I and this hospital are apart of an independent Catholic Church. Perhaps most of Catholic Ireland is close to doing the same!

What is always stated in these objections to girl altar servers is that boys won't serve if girls are on the altar - they need to feel special. Why would boys not want to serve? Why do they need to keep girls away to feel special?

Will this exclusion attract the same kind of boys who are not women-friendly, who may even be gynophobic?

Doesn't this attract and even foster the homophilic culture Richard Sipe writes about?

Young men cite a number of reasons they decide against pursuing ordination: parents' objections, other priests' warning them off - not alienation from seeing girls on the altar or from not participating because there were girls on the altar.

Why stop at this? Why should we let girls and women in the church during the Eucharist? They weren't there 2000 years ago at the Last Supper. There is no instance recorded in scripture of women being baptized or going to confession either. Why allow these misbegotten males, as Aquinas called them, to enter church buildings at all?

I say we do away with girls and women at Mass alltogether. Better yet, let's do away with the laity. Oh, wait, we've already done that.

If the principal church of the Diocese bans females from serving at the Altar of the Lord, then the message to all the females in the Diocese is "STAY HOME -- YOU ARE NOT WANTED HERE!!"

No womder at least 1/3 of the Baptized Catholics quit going to unhealthy places like this!!

There are people in the Church, who even though a minority, want to drag everyone else back to the middle ages. Put the clergy on a pedestal, as "aristocrats" and make the laity back into ignorant serfs. JP II and Benedict have encouraged these people and given them far too much power. If you take exception to this medievalism, you are accused of being "disloyal" or "not faithful" or some other nonsense.

Unfortunately, quite a few of these reactionaries are in positions of power in the Church and they have done everything possible to roll back Vatican II. If you don't like what they are doing, the typical statement is to "get out." Perhaps so they can have their "pure" cultlike SSPX style Church. Well, I am not shutting up and I am not getting out. I have gotten into more than a few spirited discussions over the years, some of which turned ugly, but I am not going to be quiet or leave. THis is my Church too and I will fight the medievalists every step of the way.

This ban is ridiculous! Will the other Phoenix diocesan clerics correct their brother priest Lankeit on this issue, or will they remain silent? How about Lay folk? Putting money in the collection basket this coming weekend? Every day our beloved Catholic Church gets further and further into extinction.

It's idiotic. He is either a chauvanist or just plain stupid.

But, it's up to the women in the cathedral parish to do something about it.
If they don't have the guts then they really don't care about the issue all that much.
In my parish, he would have already been hung out by the petard by now!

serving at the sanctuary is not a question about rights. it is not that males have a right to serve which females inherently do not have. Holy Mother Church has not and will never discriminate against women.

Males and females are different, and as such will be treated differently. For example a father may encourage rough and tumble play with his son, but would not do so for his daughter. Reason being that they are different, not because he is discriminating against his daughter.

The long-standing tradition of having males serve at the sanctuary is linked to the fact that it helps promote and foster vocations in young males towards the priesthood, who are so close to the priest as he carries out his sacred duty. In their observing the priest, hopefully they will be inspired by the great love he has of the Eucharist and this in turn would develop in themselves a great love for the Eucharist also. Females cannot, and will never become priests and to prevent such difficulties from occurring, Holy Mother Church prefers that males serve at the sanctuary.

serving at the sanctuary is not a question about rights. it is not that males have a right to serve which females inherently do not have. Holy Mother Church has not and will never discriminate against women.

Males and females are different, and as such will be treated differently. For example a father may encourage rough and tumble play with his son, but would not do so for his daughter. Reason being that they are different, not because he is discriminating against his daughter.

The long-standing tradition of having males serve at the sanctuary is linked to the fact that it helps promote and foster vocations in young males towards the priesthood, who are so close to the priest as he carries out his sacred duty. In their observing the priest, hopefully they will be inspired by the great love he has of the Eucharist and this in turn would develop in themselves a great love for the Eucharist also. Females cannot, and will never become priests and to prevent such difficulties from occurring, Holy Mother Church prefers that males serve at the sanctuary.

Hey Tim,,, the exact opposite of your proposal is happening. The Vatican II Catholics are having Masses in house churches and condo social rooms and the 'orthodox ' are to be left holding on to the property. Slowly selling it off to keep up maintenace with what's left.Say hello to the Pope John Paul II center in Wash. DC a money loser if there was ever was one.

The current indult, and it is an indult, not canon law, does not mean that the celebrant priest MUST use altar girls, he may if he wishes, he isnot bound to do so. The use of altar girls is the option, not the requirement.

Furthermore, Rome has clearly stated, though it is not the case here, that altar girls MAY NOT be used during an EF mass.

This article is laughable at best. Firstly, it should be acknowledged that having female altar servers is at the discretion of the bishop and NOTHING requires him to permit it. For those complaining, you can read http://www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur19.htm to get a better grasp of the issue pertaining to female servers.

Secondly, who cares about what the Womens Ordination Conference says? Pope John Paul II closed the issue pertaining the ordination of women, and it is not allowed in the Roman Catholicism.

"I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful." (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/h...)

Cor Iesu sacratissimum, miserere nobis.

The Vatican, Boys in Red and the bishops had better get of this misogynistic thing pretty fast in this fast paced world. Blatant discrimination without reasonable basis will have a big blowback, I shake my head in astonishment at the stupidity of Church leaders. Now I wonder if women who have read the gospel at mass and acted as deacons are guilty of sin!!! And what about the priests who allowed equal treatment on the altar? Sinners too? STOP GIVING THESE BOYS YOUR MONEY! There are many more worthy charities which are not headed by women hating dunces.

The hierarchical Church has no other concerns except these petty ones. It will try its very best to destroy values of goodness, love, compassion, understanding etc.etc. How unlike Christ are some of His representatives in our Churches! When the Church is suffering so much and when the people are looking out for someone to show them the way these so called representatives are further misleading them. Still I believe God will forgive us all.

This is one of the silliest editorials I have read in a long time. Have you ever paused to consider that you, and not the "conservative Catholics" you like to put down, are the ones obsessed with sex and gender? It seems that way to me.

Misogyny. Women hating. "presence of girls deters boys" Ridiculous and seriously wrong if males resent females so much that the males refuse to be in the presence of girls or women. That is not Church, not community to leave out the women and girls!

Jesus had both female and male apostles! Junia, Samaritan woman, Martha, Mary of Bethany, Mary Magdalene.

Only women anointed our Messiah, the anointed one, it is recorded that two different women anointed Jesus. Just like our bishops anoint. Women. In the presence of Jesus. Instrumental as anointers.

Women as witnesses of Crucixion and Resurrection. Without Mary Magdalene Apostle there would be no Christianity! All the men ran away and hid.

Jesus appeared to a woman first upon Resurrection and bid her teach the men, bid her be his Apostle.

Women were present at Last Supper as they are at all Seders along with children too. Women were present at Pentacost too.

Stop this insane harmful misogyny and abuse of women and girls. Girls and women shown not welcome, then all women and girls must refuse to attend that bishops or any bishops/priests celebrants cathedral or church or church meeting. Jesus included girls and women, even knew girls like Jairus's daughter were worth raising from the dead. Be dead to such abuse women, and refuse to give time, money, talent, free labor to such misogynist and misinformed, disordered RC who turn females away from the altar.

I am a woman and I believe it is a shame that Catholic women are so weak that they give into the feminist revelotion, a ploy of satan.

Altar boys have been traditonal for many years as it lets them be close to the priest and helps them in choosing to be a priest. Since women cannot be priests they should let the boys have this time with the priest. We are greatly lacking in vocations of priests, so for our Catholic church to continue, we need more men for vocations.

This is just another way of the ego totally lacking in humility bringing destruction into the church by women. I have been told by a bishop and two priests that it is not the girls who want to even be altar servers, it is their mothers. There are many honorable ways that girls can work and help the church.

Can you imagine Blessed Mary leading the procession into Mass, she was humble and nuturing, we might all follow her lead.

The reason the church and the world are moving toward the full equality of women is because the devil has infiltrated the church and the devil is the father of this world. Those who are still trying to acquire worldly satisfactions and not heavenly ones are working for their father, the devil. He is the father of lies.

God already has offered all of us, both men and women, eternal salvation. That is equality. God also created us differently, 'male and female', with different jobs to do for HIM.

'The serpent was the most cunning of all the animals that the LORD God had made.' ...... 'But the serpent said to the woman: You certainly will not die! No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad.' ......

Are we ever going to learn!

The truth of the matter is clear in Genesis, it wasn't about getting to eat all of the fruit in the garden, as it isn't about women getting to do all that men do in this world (it's physically impossible anyway). It's about what lucifer always wanted and is still working for: to have equality with our one and only LORD GOD. The devil is working through us to lead the church to be what he wishes it to be - everything that God's church isn't and never was. And he wants to mock God and have people come and worship his ways, not Jesus' ways. The devil is stil trying to tell us that we are equals with God. Like when some people within the church try to preach that Jesus was only a mere man even though the Catholic faith teaches what the bible says, JESUS IS GOD.

But nothing's changed since the beginning. Many people want God and the church to change for us, when we're the ones who are supposed to be changing for HIM.

Thank you Lord for our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary. She is the greatest role model for all of us women. And she definately never belittled herself in doing what she did for all of mankind. Thank you Mother Mary.