Roy Bourgeois threatened with excommunication

This is another horribly sad threat in a recent series of canonical punishments in our church. We can not afford to keep silencing voices who speak up for those who have already been silenced by our church. Thank you to the women who have courageously been ordained and thank you for our sisters and brothers who continue to support them. I have hope that others(maybe even whole orders) will follow these women and men in prophetic obedience. Thank you for listening Roy!

Traditions change as culture evolves. We no longer sell indulgences for those in purgatory. We may or not eat meat on Friday. And the support of women as priests
is another culture step (review Marie Louise Von Franz) directed toward an all male clergy, that has defied abortion, but not the death of innocent others in an Iraqi invasion that left children (and intra-uterine fetuses) in rubles and refugees suffering and wandering.

To exclude a Maryknoll from the Church is foolish theology and more foolish politics. We are all imperfect, but those of us that still accept a Church that has killed, or tacitly supported killing, shows dedication to our history, as we continue to discriminate the wishes of Christ on earth, and seek a benevolent vision of God almighty.

I suggest a stance excluding threats toward some of the faithful, lest those faithful exclude rejecting, dogmatic top-down authoritarianism.

Dear Anon.

I'm very saddened that you cannot trust the authority of the magesterium of the catholic church, as well as that you cannot comprehend that the issue of womens ordination is a closed issue, not up for debate.

To quote John Paul II:

"Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4)."

It doesn't get any more black and white than that.

We already have the American Episcopal Church available for those who want women priests. Why not just join them?

Dear Pope Benedict,

The world needs more people like Fr Roy Bourgeois in leadership positions so that peace can be made and injustices righted.

Fr Roy Bourgeois has been my friend, client, confidant and spiritual inspiration for the past 19 years. We met when he was on assignment by Maryknoll in Minneapolis in 1989. I was practicing law in Minneapolis at the time. His courage to face injustice, name injustice and act in true conscience against injustice is legend. He is in character in this dispute.

Fr Roy Bourgeois has acted again consistent with these ideals. By raising the issue you have placed the Catholic Church clearly in the light for the world to see as an agent of injustice. This is not only an embarrassment politically, it is a misuse of the call of the Gospel. One of the most prominent Christian Ethics professors in our part of the United States, Dr. James Nelson has written of the central message of the Bible, as follows:

The central overarching principles of the Bible involved “Jesus setting aside…every false tradition that violates the oneness of God, the oneness of God’s human community. It pictures the Jesus who lived out the life-changing reality that God’s oneness cannot be compromised by human prejudice, human fear, or human ethics.”

I believe Dr. Nelson has spoken with truth and wisdom. In light of this standard, your position on the banishment of Fr Bourgeois is blasphemy. The oneness of God is compromised by excluding anyone from the fullness of God's love, and, therefore, both the exclusion of women from God's service and the excommunication of Fr Bourgeois violates the fundamental teaching of Christ.

A theology of exclusion is a serious sin. Christian discipleship knows no boundaries. Christ crossed the boundaries: of nations in negotiating with the Syro-Phonecian woman [Mark 7: 24-37]; of social place in communing with lepers [Mark 1: 40-45]; of violence in forgiving his persecutors at the crucifixion [Luke 23: 34]; of gender in offering “living water” to the Samarian woman [John 4]; of race in helping and then commending a Gentile centurion [Matt. 8: 5-13]; and of enemies when he counseled “love your enemy.” [Matt 5: 44].

Show the world that the Catholic church can be redeemed. Ordain women before your Church collapses; reinstate Fr Bourgeois before you bring more theologic disgrace on your institution.

Peace,
Peter Thompson

November 13, 2008

Dear Fr. Roy,

As your classmate all through the seminary for seven years and who was ordained with you on the same day, I ask you now, while there is still time, to reconsider your stand, and make a courageous act of submission to the Church. I know how difficult this will be for you after all your public statements and the great show of public support that has backed up your stance.

This is a different issue from SOA. Here the magisterium of the Church is involved, which we all submit to as priests. Please save yourself and your priesthood while you still have time. Please take the courage after much prayer, and make an act of submission to the teaching authority of the Church. Do not incur excommunication.

Fr. Steven Scherrer

Ossining, NY

God bless Fr. Roy , a visionary who has a legitimate Christlike concern for humanity and is willing to challenge the staus quo.
Keep up the fight!
Peace
ABQ

Within us as YOU are; so shall be YOUR Church! We are the CHURCH!

Let each of us do what we can,as a matter of conscience and our own initiative,to modernize our out-dated Catholic Church.Why,may you ask,were there so few Catholic conscientiuos objectors during the Vietnam War.I was clasified as 1-0,that being,opposed to all wars at all times .To strive and exist in this world without violence,is not for wimps.I signed on with my draftboard,that I would go to jail for 5 years if they decided to nix my claim.I got what mind inner voice was telling me.All of us are inherently peaceful.Even inside the womb,national geographic shows how quadruplicates share their common space and roll with the "punches" and not shake their fists.Or watch .as I did in Costa Rica,a three year old not hitting a paper pinata of Barney the purple dinosaur filled with peanuts,candy and a few colones.Even under the encouragement of her primos and primas."Barney is my friend,Adriana said as she put down the stick.Shministim is the word Jewish people use.Do we have the purity of heart and mind that Adrianna has?Or has the violent video games,incessant war news and our own version of 'staying the course' that has been tried throughout the history of Me First.The "Our Father" starts with Him ,later,"Give Us This Day"comes into play.As a great friend said to me:The Fatherhood of God,The brotherhood of Man.Standing O for Rev.Roy,to whom I personally know and salute .Wecome Brother AND Sisters.Come and join us in this Good Fight with Peaceful Minds.I pray the Pope will listen.My Mother's brother,Tom Mannion ,from Bed-Stuy,Brooklyn,had Lenny Wilkins as his alterboy.Read Lenny's book Unguarded and find a beautiful role model.Rev.Mannion received a lot of flack from the Catholic Church with shared beliefs that Roy Bourgeois.Google up Mannion,25th year anniversity and see what I found to be true .I believe the average age of priests in the US is 62.Shoulder to shoulder with Roy,looking in the same direction,please.No sissy wimps need to apply.Yours,in Christ,Tom Schmidt...I give permission to publish my e-mail

In my mid twenties, I started drifting away from the church because I would sit there listening to the readings at mass, and the homilies of the priests and say to myself "I don't believe some of this stuff". I think voucher codes or coupons are more important than ever to people trying to save money on their shopping online.

I can never understand what those opposed to the priesthood of women are afraid of ... for surely there can be no other explanation than fear in the face of such closed minds, hearts and spirits.

Jesus was a Jew, but G-d sent him to all people. The church didn't say because Jesus was a Jew, only Jewish men can be priests.

It's fear of women, that's all I can figure.

This persons response is not unusual coming from a member of my Church. I have been a RC for 66 years but have most of the time tried to use the intellect God has given me and to THINK. Fr. RAy, thinks, and some RC's feel that is evil and wrong.

Church teachings by cannon law standards are not teachings until accepted by the faithful. This teaching along with all have never been put out for the acceptance of the faithful, some times not even by the "boys club" of bishops. It's time we start to say NO! No! to an all male priesthood, no to the lowering of the age of Confirmation and no to children in the Diocese of Phenoix not being able to receive the Eucharist for the first time until they are confirmed. Some children there are having to wait until May or JUne of 2009 to receive the Eucharist for the first time, these kids will be 10 or even 11 years old. Pope St. Pius the X lefted this old way of doing things and all kids at seven to receive. So to these and many others we must say NO! No! No!.

Bishops are floating around who hid and hide issues of abuse and some like Law are honored. God Have Mercy on the Men with the pointed hats.

Instead of name-calling, why not address the issues!

Your comments are abusive and self-righteous,. a good dose of love of God and neighbour would do you the world of good.The church (those in Rome, at least) have never got it all right, and they haven't got it right now.People come before rules and regulations, even if those are necessary. Ask Jesus.

The real question that must be asked here is:
Can a woman be CALLED to the priesthood when the Magisterium, in UNION with the Holy Spirit, says this call is for men only?

What is really SAD is when a priest believes the Magesterium is not in union with the Holy Spirit. This error in belief brings about rejection of CHURCH TEACHINGS & is what excommunicates religious and lay persons alike.

What is truly SAD is when many who profess to be Catholics are really far from the FULLNESS OF TRUTH since they CHOOSE, by the gift of their own FREE WILL, to be their own Pope.

What is beyond SAD is when the people who are excommunicated by their own CHOICES don't even know they are excommunicated because they didn't get the official decree from the Vatican, but from the quite whisper of the Holy Spirit Who has been squelched out by the 'noice' of their sinful rejection of Holy Mother Church.

May the faithful few who are not excommunicated PRAY for their conversion!

To Annonymous: My only comment is: What you are afraid of??

Judge not lest you be judged.

Sir (and I think that is a safe assumption),

I feel confident in asserting that Fr. Bourgeois is not even a little confused. As an educated person, talented writer and orator, and a priest who has gathered hundreds of thousands of people over 20 years to stand with the oppressed and speak truth to power, I think he knows what he is doing and saying. Labeling him as "intellectually pointless" or "reckless," and asserting that he does this out of ego or pride is just slander. Just abuse. Just manipulation. Save it for the pundits. It seems ironic to suggest that HE is the one stubbornly staying the course. We are not in the 50s anymore.

Jesus denied his religious authorities when they did not look upon the face of every human as an equal and valued child of God.

I pray the leaders of our Church accept and respect the voice of a prophet as one who speaks truth, speaks for the poor, and can see what the future holds.

There may be a place of anonymous remarks (when one's position would draw inordinate attack and prospective harm) but your anonymous criticism of this brave priest must be heavily discounted. It is almost craven to write as you have -- and ask us to believe you "know" -- when there is no one there whose credibility can be assessed.

I wish to make a stronger statement.

I am a practicing Catholic primarily because my parents grew up in Catholic households, got married in the Catholic Church, and raised their family of 8 children as Catholics (birth control was forbiden, you know).

In my mid twenties, I started drifting away from the church because I would sit there listening to the readings at mass, and the homilies of the priests and say to myself "I don't believe some of this stuff".

After my first child, I joined a local Catholic parish to bring my child(ren) up in a structured religious environment. I found my small parish to be a welcoming, loving community, and so continued to become more involved. I was a member of the parish council, and for the past 10 years have sung in the church choir and become a member of the Peace and Social Justice commission.
I am also one of the 20% of the parish members that financially supports the parish.

But I still have issues with the Roamn Catholic Church. And this is a big one.
I have met many women who are more capable of leading a Catholic community than many priests. Women as priests just makes sense. Whats more, the holy scripturees have many passages that suggests this.

To have this group of patricians in thew Vatican threaten to excommunicate Father Roy because he voices an opinion, is unchristian and foolish. This Vatican group has their collective heads buried in the sand.

Many theologians have suggested the ordination of woman can enhance our church. I share their beliefs.

So maybe the Church should excommunicate me. The only regret I would have, is that I could not gather with my friends who belong to the church. Otherwise, I would be happy to "take my baseball bat (money and talents), and go home".

I'm truly curious what your opinion would be of a priest who is associated with a fundamentalist, evangelical (501C3) group who violate the separation of church and state by supporting right-wing candidates for office. They do it in a very public way with both his physical and vocal support. They decry the teaching of evolution and believe only in "intelligent design" along with a literal belief in the bible. Their major rallying point is abortion. This priest does not allow people who have politically liberal bumper stickers to park in the public parking lot of the church where he is pastor. He supports the "leafletting" of cars with right-wing political leaflets in other private church parking lots. Do you think he should be allowed to do these things or is he in the same category (he publicly proclaims his private confusions) as this priest? I really am curious about your reply. Thanks

Jesus calls whom He calls into His service in whichever church or denomination where He calls them, where they stand. Like the Anglican Communion of the 1970s in the USA, Women declared themselves ordained and the church recognized it. It's high time that God's female priests within the ranks of Catholicism did, the same, and that clergy were allowed to marry.
Compulsory celibacy is unnatural, and when you force that on people,you get what you pay for. Many people leave Christianity, or leave Catholicism to more woman-friendly and gender-egalitarian Christian groups, like Pentecostalism, Holiness movements(Church of God, Anderson, Indiana, Salvation Army, Quakers, United Pentecostal Church International, Assemblies of God, United Church of Christ, Episcopal Church USA, United Methodist Church, Wesleyan Methodist Church...to name a few...Catholicism is not the only Christian way....Jesus is the way and any one of us must do and go where He tells us to go..our marching orders come from the King Himself...not from people, even though they may hold high ecclesiastical office) and some of the more mainliine Protestant groups which ordain women. When God calls someone to preach, you DO NOT get in the way of that on a human level. To do so invites divine judgment, so Roman Church, get out of God's way already and let His people go! God is closing your churches because people have had enough of your hypocrisy.

Actually, what is sad is that people like you cannot see the beauty and honor of this act. Fr. Roy would rather put his priesthood, indeed his entire identity, at stake rather than recant support of an oppressed population. He has done nothing but support oppressed populations since he became a priest. He is a standing example of the courage we should all have as Catholics. If more people stood up for what is right, rather than what is "tradition" - and I use that word lightly - then the Church would be a much more open and accepting place for all people.

Shame on this hypocritical writer, a direct descendent of the Sadducees and Pharisees. Fr Ray has not put himself between a rock and a hard place - the Church has put itself between the people and Christ. It's the Church's insistance to hold on to male-domination that separates itself from God's message that "all are welcome here."

Fr Ray, you "are a priest forever, of the order of Melchizedek of old." You are a true preacher of the gospel message, a true Christian. You have the support of millions. More priests, nuns, monks and lay hold your position than that of the pre-Vatican II holdouts, but they only lack one thing - your Christ-like courage.

I wish that more Catholics (esp. those in power) could hear Christ first, and their archaic, sexist, racist hearts could be softened to the message of Christ.

It is frightening to me to have anyone put an institutional authority over and above an individual man's conscience. Opposing magisterium with ego/pride as if it were the only possible opposition is faulty logic, at best, and frightening hubris at worst.

Where is your argument? It's not the 70's anymore? Please tell why this man is wrong instead of stating silly illogical finger pointing and name calling as a valid argument. Your response implies judgement and creates anger and hate. Talk about intellectually pointless, he would excommunicate the Congregation for the Doctrin of the Faith...really?

"His letter is nothing but an intellectually pointless effort to deflect attention from his own reckless actions... and pass judgment on the Church. Would he excommunicate the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith if he could? You bet he would." exactly!!

Mister "Anonymous" or are you female? (Doubt that!) I believe you have Father Roy confused with our "pro-life" president, George W. Bush.

"We are not in the 70's anymore." --- You are right about that and we are not in the "Dark Ages" where your "Magisterium" can threaten us with the fires of Hell or the Inqusition's infamous stake.

Father Roy is as much the Church as those pompous men, well-nourished and clothed with the trappings of silliness. Do you think Cardinal Law is safe from the wrath of an Old Testament Father, safe in his luxurious apartment feasting upon the fruits of his labor?

You're damn right it's not the 70's anymore; Holy Mother Church is on the run thanks to the men who've managed Her foolish politics to this point.

I spent 13 years of my formal education with the Sisters of Mercy, four years at a Jesuit university and I know Jesus; Jesus is a Friend of mine; Jesus has vomited the so-called "Magisterium" right out of His mouth.

Mike Pelepko (former Maryknoll seminarian)
Lebanon, PA
mpelepko@yahoo.com

A large band of Angels called fallen

"The hierarchy and magisterium are terrified of women." So are the Islamic fundamentalists. Could this be the reason the Vatican and the Imams are getting along so well?

You clearly have no understanding of the Church's teachings. Nobody has the "right" to be ordained! Furthermore, the Roman Catholic Church cannot "ordain" women even if it wanted to do so! It is a matter of the fundamental differences between man and woman.

And I think you would be shocked to know that those martyrs - men and women - wouldn't agree with you on this point.

Friend, women will never, ever be ordained in the Catholic Church. This is a wishful fantasy that will never come true. May I suggest you join the Anglican communion there you will find women bishops, priests and gay marriage.

..... Thus nullifying magisterial teaching, a number of bishops making political statements prior to 11/4, and Cardinal George in his recent address to the bishops' conference - all of whom claim to speak with a prophetic voice.

Did Fr. B. say he was a prophet?

When did he call himself a prophet?

"The Church is truly divided on too many fronts" So let's divide it some more by starting our own Vatican... Good thinking? Oh, maybe not.
Please excuse the sarcasm, but really is this person serious?

What a challenge it is to be a saint. Father spoke of conscience. As we know it reigns supreme, yet we must constantly be forming and informing it. My worry for Father is the example of the many persecuted reformers of the past. The thing that marks them is their obedience. Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, and many others suffered greatly for their reforms, yet they consistently 'emptied themselves and took the form of a slave'. The Gospel speaks of Jesus' silence in the face of his persecutors; Jeremiah spoke in private with the king while imprisoned. Lord, teach us prudence and humility so that we might ever proclaim your prophetic message and not our own. The word of God proclaimed at Mass this morning was from 2 John:

"Look to yourselves that you do not lose what we worked for
but may receive a full recompense.
Anyone who is so “progressive”
as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God;
whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son."

It is getting harder and harder to stay inside the Catholic Church. This might be the last straw for me, a 51 year old woman.

Say, where was it written that Galileo was wrong??? Seemed to me the Church was wrong...or the bible, but Galileo might have been burned to death had he not recanted. When was St. Joan wrong, but the Church burned her and then canonized her???? There is no place in the Bible that says that women can't be ordained priest. Jeez, Mary made Jesus perform his first miracle, Mary Magdalene was very much by his side and ministered also. And, what about Priscilla. And, to whom did he first appear after his death. Let's face facts, Fr. has a different point of view and that can't be tolerated. The Church is an autocracy/theocracy and change comes slowly, but it does come. What was wrong 100 years ago is not so wrong now. Perhaps, the HOly Spirit might move a bit faster now...everything else does. And, speaking of those Bishops that covered for the pedophiles. I would think God himself would excommunicate those guys from the world. Can't think of too many more heinous crimes. How awful can a female priest be? What's so awful? It's a church of old men when the world is filled mainly with women. Think about that.

It is people like you who drive members away from the Church.
Thanks to people like you. I became an Atheist. It finally liberated me from a Paternalist and Imperialist society!

Michael,
I have read the comments about Fr.Roy's excommunication over the ordination of women. Many folks disagree with his position, but i have yet to hear why other than because the Church or the Pope said so. Could you please give me more information about why the ordination of women should not be talked about.

I am not myself a Roman Catholic, so perhaps my comments here don't count for much in this context. However, I too think it is sad that Father Bourgeois is threatened with so harsh a punishment as excommunication, simply for holding to conscience in his belief in the veracity of the call of women to the priesthood.

If the hierarchy actually goes through with this excommunication, as I hope they will not, I believe strontly that the Episcopal Church (very similar in theological teachings to the Roman Catholic, though perhaps more accommodating of differences in interpretation) would welcome him with open arms. This would, of course, depend on whether he would even consider changing denominations. But if excommunication forced him to leave the R.C. Church, the Episcopal Church, which has for years ordained women priests, might provide a new venue for such a man of faith and principle.

"To reference Jagerstatter is pretty appalling; Jagerstatter died for upholding the truth as he understood it from Catholic teaching; any reading of Jagerstatter's letters would convince you that he fully accepted the authority of the teaching Church."

Your understanding of Jagerstatter is confused and erroneous. Yes, he 'died for upholding the truth as he understood it from Catholic teaching.' But he rejected the authority of the teaching Church. Both his priest and his bishop informed him his Christian duty was to obey the secular authority of the state & serve in Hitler's army. He was mocked by the prison minister, who asked how he could put his conscience above his bishop's clear instruction to submit to serving the Nazi state. He replied, "Because God has not given the bishop the Grace to see otherwise."

Conscience in its very being requires that it be a matter of personal conviction. If there is truly no room for dissent in Catholic teachings, then there is no room for conscience. One cannot adhere to a body of teaching without reflection or question and then call such adherence a matter of conscience.

As a woman I have to say, it doesn't feel "all about Roy's ego" to me. It feels like its about me, my gender, my life and my church. Roy's ego one way or another means very little to me. He is standing for a cause I believe in, and he is risking more than most would ever in their lifetimes. When someone is in a position of taking risks to be true to their conscience, its easy for others, who do not take risks for their beliefs, to say its all about ego. It doesn't change what taking a stand means for those with whom you stand in solidarity. Thank you Roy.

Dear Tom:

You stand up for our Catholic Church's teaching about "women being priests" and that's your version of the truth, but not binding on Father Roy Bourgeois in the eyes of Jesus; an individual conscience is never "formed" by any religion's teachings, which can only "inform" the individual who is called by God to live his/her life according to that conscience. Can you imagine a Jesus whose conscience was formed by the Torah alone?

Recently in South Carolina, in the Diocese of Charleston, a Catholic priest named Newman allegedly informed his parishoners if they voted for Barack Obama they could not receive the Eucharist under the pain of "mortal sin?" Whatever? I'm certain from the content of your letter you would know some of Father Newman's parishoners were intimidated and thereby prevented from receiving the Body and Blood of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Speaking nothing about voting your conscience, the secret ballot, or the separation of church and state --- where's the self-proclaimed "Magisterial Council" in this case?

Then also, you completely ignore Father Bourgeois's reference to the murdered Archbisop Oscar Romero while using your own interpretation on Blessed Hans Jagerstatter; in light of the fact that Vatican politicians stood side by the side with the "nobility" of El Salvadore against the poor peasants of that country --- you're "pretty appalling" and that's the truth you've chosen to ignore.

It's not, like you state, "all about Father Roy" --- it's all about pompous men, well nourished and over-clothed with the garments of Satan.

A hundred years from now, when women are finally Catholic priests, that's of course if God even allows this arrogant Church to remain visible --- a hundred years from now the Truth will have set us free.

God help us if you're the one who's right.

"Peace through Justice"
Mike Pelepko (former Maryknoll Seminarian)
Lebanon, PA

Good durma about Koxp