Self-mortification must be moderate, monitored

Self-mortification is NOT an instrument of "perfection", it is PATHOLOGICAL behavior. If Pope John Paul II was really trying to UNITE himself with Christ. he should have started with his own behavior in regards to treating women in the Church with some measure of equality by opening up ordination to the priesthood and office of bishop. John Paul II and the present Bishop of Rome, are DIVIDERS and no amount of spin, which is exactly what these latest statements from Cardinals Cottier and Martins are, will turn fiction into truth. The real spiritual direction should come from Christ NOT from men who call themselves "princes" of the Church and parade around in watered silk and expensive gowns that belong to an imperial model of the Church. These cardinals are just too much. The entire College of Cardinals should be abolished. None of these imperial trappings remotely reflect the ministry of Christ and self-mortification is another example of the sickness that runs deep in the institutional Church.

"Pope John Paul, like St. Paul in the New Testament and other saints throughout the centuries, are examples of uniting oneself "to Christ with self-sacrifice and by participating in his sufferings," the cardinal said." Redemption has been achieved and completed by the sufferings of Christ; there is nothing else that man can add to that. To think otherwise is to deny the redemption achieved by Jesus and to continue in pre-Christian ideas of human sacrifices and doing works of atonement to the gods. By faith in God and the sacrifice of Jesus, redemption is complete.

Self sacrificing, self denial, striving hard for perfection as an athlete or an opera tenor, modest living, hard work, reasonable penance or restitution for sins, and all that are fine, maybe wonderful and saintly at times.

But self-flagellation, inducement of pain for the sake of suffering to reap holiness is a very bad thing despite the fact that some purported saints have done it in the past.

Who was spiritual director to the pope?

God, if he/she is a loving God, does not take pleasure in human suffering, piously done or not. It is a theological contradiction to somehow say that what Pope Paul II did was okay. It also reeks of hypocrisy because he never mentioned it in his theology that glorifies the body.

Baloney! Lots of double talk and backtracking.
The cardinal stated: "...are examples of uniting oneself "to Christ with self-sacrifice and by participating in his sufferings,"
Also stated: "In addition, Cardinal Cottier said, while "suffering itself is an evil and a scandal that must be alleviated," Christians can also try to deal with suffering the way Christ did, by transforming his suffering and death into "the total gift of himself for our salvation."
BUT JPII wasn't sacrificing or suffering for following Christ, he was SELF sacrificing, inflicting pain upon himself, not for Christ but for himself.

SO TAKING THIS NONSENSE to its final conclusion then, as Christ did, give oneself totally by self sacrificing ourselves to death, death as Christ experienced, then we too, BY OUR OWN ACTIONS and self inflicted death have secured for ourselves the "the total gift" of ourselves for our own salvation "by participating in His suffering AND death".

The only way suffering and sacrifice have any merit is when one suffers for Christ by being persecuted for following Christ and the gospel. Period.
Self inflicted sacrifice is just masochism. It's a psychological/psychiatric disorder, the ICD-9cm (International Classification Of Diseases, 9th Clinical Modification) is 302.83. Furthermore, it's a distortion of the gospel of Jesus Christ. As St. Paul said, if you're taught a different gospel than what I taught you then avoid it, even if I come back and teach you a different gospel. St. Paul is turning over in his grave.

Spin, spin, spin.

Speaking of which, since JP2 was an athlete why did he not simply find healthier ways to build health and character through pain, such as spin
training or a treadmill?

In latter years, wouldn't physical therapy to improve his ability to get
around created sufficient discomfort to "offer up."

No, in this day and age, when someone uses whips or flails to inflict
pain on his or her self it really is pain for its own sake and without
any redeeming value. A spiritual director worth his or her salt will
direct their charge to find some more productive way to experience and
to overcome physical barriers.

An indifference and disrespect for one's own body makes it very easy to overlook the victims of abuses by others ---

No wonder the last couple of Popes have not dealt adequately with the ongoing scandal of clerical abusers and their superiors who covered up and ignored the victims. They don't think that it is wrong at all-- criminally, morally or psychologically...

Most normal people realize that deliberate abuse of their own or others' bodies are signs of serious dysfunctional mental problems and impaired personalities. Such people should be in NO POSITIONS OF LEADERSHIP AT ALL, since there is no way to protect any victims of such tyrants!

There is one thing the previous six commentators have in common-they are all wrong. The second premise in which they err is in their judgement of what means the Lord Jesus has ordained for the late Holy Father to advance in holiness. I submit that is especially between God and His Holiness alone. What hubris and presumption on the part of these commentors! You cannot possibly know of the intimate relationship between anyone and the Almighty God, and to assume such is the height of arrogance and pride.
Mr. Smith is under the delusion that he knows what is best for the Pope and the Church. Fortunately, for what is left of Christendom, Mr. Smith is not in charge. Mr. Rethinking is also wrong in his conclusion. St. Paul relates how grateful he is to suffer in the name of the Lord to "make up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ", and furthermore exhorts all disciples to imitate him as he imitates the Lord. Dr. Dale is patently wrong when he says that suffering as a result of persecution is the only means of merit through suffering. Instead of reading ICD he should read the scriptures and Fathers of the church. It makes me wonder if the same ICD and similar publications by mental health professionals were used by those same "pros" to tell so many bishops that homosexual and pedophile clerics were "cured" and ready to rejoin the ranks of their mentally healthy peers. Mssrs. bullough and Anonymous are confident they know wherein the path of holiness lies not only for the Holy Father but most other "normal people" as well. We are not here to save our lives but to lose them for the sake of the Lord and his word. "The Lord delights in the death of his holy ones."

No! Self-mortification is weird! Try to sell self-mortification to those contemplating a religious life. Try to explain the virtues of self-mortification to CCD students and religious education classes. Do something positive or uplifting with your time and talents. Self-mortification is self-torture.

From a former Roman catholic..... The Roman church is presenting "another gospel", which is no Gospel at all. They make the centuries-old error of holding up their "traditions of men" higher than the simple Good News of the New Testament....... Martin Luther got it right! ... FAITH in the completed work of the crucified, risen Lord Jesus Christ....plus nothing! Wasn't He enough?! Wasn't the blood of the Son of God enough?! When you cast off the lies and deceptions and burdens of the long-robed hypocrites, and embrace the Jesus of the Bible, Life will come to you, and you too will know the simple Truth. Don't gamble with Eternal Life..... place your faith in the only One that is trustworthy, and recieve His Gift. Rome is offering sickness and death. I was once there, but I was rescued....I got found! Ralph Gaily

roman catholic church = "another gospel"

A very sick Curia if they try to defend self-mortification. Jesus tried to have this cup taken away from him, remember his prayers in the Garden, asked God if God had forsaken him during crucifixion. Not a self-mortifier at all.

Yes God's will be done, yet Jesus did try to bargain a bit out of it. Jesus did not seek to be flogged or tortured or crucified. He used his wisdom and wits to stay alive too, for preaching, healing, teaching as long as he could. Jesus told us he would give us words of wisdom to use to keep on spreading his good news. (James, Judes I think has passages about this too.)

No justification for the sick behavior of JPII and other people who do this self-abuse. Likely a way that individual supposedly tries to suppress their sexuality. Jesus was not obsessed about suppressing sexuality either. Look who he praised. Woman of the city anointer and samarian woman. Sex was not disgusting to Jesus.

Our Lord Jesus Christ according to scripture, "spent whole nights in prayer as was his custom" Thus depriving his humanity of sleep. Our Lord also fasted for 40 days in the dessert. The Holy Roman Catholic Church of Jesus Christ, calls this self-mortification. "Man does not live by bread alone" So! practice some mortification. Who knows? It may just bring you closer to Christ.

Why all the critical comments of the late Holy Father? Many of the great saints of the Church used similar disciplines, such as St. Francis and St Benedict. Maybe we should try to imitate the great saints who imitated Christ so well?

I notice that the progressive, rational and healthy comments consistently outnumber the ultra-conservative defenders of the "faith". The truth is the faith. The truth shall set you free. Jesus is the truth. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth. Where you find lies and deception you do not find truth.If not the truth, what then? The devil?
A far as Pope Benedict wanting to suppress dissent, I have this to say: "You conspire with crimes against the "least of these" when you try to suppress the free exercise of conscience, which is a God-given right. Had you the fear of God, you would not exalt yourself above the Gospel."
Dissent is a moral obligation and a necessary exercise of our rights as children of God. I would go so fasr as to say, that if you are not thinking critically about the church in these times, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
I will say it again: Pope Benedict has lost one of the gifts of the Spirit, the FEAR OF GOD. Of course, "Perfect love casts out fear". I do not believe the Pope is perfected in love. To defect from his pastoral responsibility in the interest of preserving clerical privelege is to engage in the same behavior that gave us the sex abuse crisis. Period.

Hey Anonymous,

You will find mostly only dissenting voices on these comment sections. This is true. The young people are looking at the catholic blogs. I only come over here the odd time to take a look at hwat is still going on after 40 years. It is pretty sad. 'Liberal Catholicism' is a dead project. There is nobody to keep carrying the flag once the old guard die off. I am a young catholic and all my friends who are into their faith are orthodox and supportive of the Holy father and the Magisterium. They are tired of the destructive dissenting voices on matters of faith and morals (these voices are the people who want gay sex accepted as morally ok, contraception, abortion, women 'priests' etc...). The liberalism and the dissent is dying off, trust me. For one thing, they don't reproduce, plus their idealogy is not at all attractive to the young, who desire beauty, truth, and goodness, as well as the challenge of the authentic catholic faith in its fullness.

As regards abuse crisis, yes it is awful, but you must bear in mind some things: one is that the abuse really came about because of the relaxation of sexual morals that came during the sixties and infected the Church. If you do some research you will find that penalties for clerical abuse were most severe before Vat2 but were relaxed (understatement) afterwards. Also the majority of the abuse was by gay priests against adolescent boys, not children. For this, see this link: http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/sep/09092910.html Then we had morally compromised bishops who covered up and protected the fallen priests.

If we live our catholic faith in its entirety there will be no abuse crisis, just a vibrant Church and lots of saints for heaven.

One thing I forgot: you should read the book GOODBYE GOOD MEN: HOW LIBERALS BROUGHT CORRUPTION INTO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, by Michael S. Rose, to see how the sick project was conducted, in order to destroy the priesthood. This whole mess is as a result of dissent, disobedience, and apostasy. Then the very people who contrived the scandalous project, who did their best to destroy authentic Catholic Faith over the last 40 years, can sit back and say ''See? Catholicism doesn't work - we need more changes!'' And what are these changes? Relaxation of sexual morals. Allow women 'priests'. Allow abortion. Ingenious. But alas, it is from the pit of hell.

Liberals have distorted and misappropriated the 2nd Vatican Council. But enough is enough. The faithful have woken up to the lies and perversions which liberals, modernists, and dissenters have foisted upon them. Enough of this rupture. We want our faith back, and we want our Church back!

Long live our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI!

Jesus loved dialogue and discussions. In Matthew he tells us to make requests of God, to ask, to knock on the door and it will open, to pray and ask of God. Jesus encourages thinking, change and debate.

Jesus responds to the arguments and requests of the Cananite mother and changes what he does. Jesus no longer just ministers and heals the children of Israel, because of her Dissent on behalf of her sick gentile child, Jesus now ministers and heals Gentiles, all the world.

The pope defies God and Jesus by shutting down requests and discussions and dissent. He does not image Christ.

Jesus did not mortify his flesh at all. Yes he fasted, yes he prayed all night, but he did not seek out whippings and scourgings. He was wise when speaking against the persons who tried to trap him. He did not seek out to be beaten and made bloody. In the garden of Gethesame Jesus wanted the cup of suffering to be taken from him. He asked God in the crucifixion why was he being forsaken, not 'give me more pain."

It is not all about the sufferings of the pope JPII it is about helping the suffering of the people, those who need shelter, food, clothes, who thirst, who need love.

Helping, serving others, loving others, is being the Christ to one another. NOT beating oneself or kneeling on rocks. That is selfish self-aggrandizing attention-seeking narcissism! Shame on Pope JPII!

Inflicting physical pain on oneself or others is sick and often sinful. This latest revelation, especially in the cause of "sainthood," will make the church seem even more "out of touch" than it already does, and I shudder to think about any emotionally ill people who might be encouraged to emulate John Paul II's method of "mortification."

I would like to ask most of you a few questions...you speak of the hypocrisy within the Catholic Church, and all the wrongs priests and bishops have committed...yet which one of you can say he/she is perfect? The preists and bishops of the Church do not claim to be. They know far better than most that no man is perfect. after all, they spend plenty of time hearing confessions. People always complain that the Catholic Church is led by a bunch of hypocrits. That it is led by a bunch of old men who never practice what they preech. Yet when a protestant pastor is caught cheating on his wife, abusing someone, stealing, it is excused by people saying, "No one is perfect." DO NOT expect the Catholic leaders to be perfect either. NO ONE IS. All I ask is that those who read this continue their arguments with a little humility and do not be so quick to bash the Church with slanderous words. All you who claim to know better than the Church fathers and say they know the truth and the way to follow Christ's teachings, how about you reread your Bibles and see all it has to say about slanderers and prideful men. The Popes do not claim to be all knowing. They do not claim to be perfect. Stop searching for reasons to prove them wrong and look for the Truth. Be open to the possibility that they may know something you do not and look at it from an unbiased position. Let me end with a few words from our Lord, that I think can be used to represent the Church. "Let him who is without sin be the first to throw the stone at her." (John 8:7)