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Burke's influence is set to grow
Vatican names pugnacious prelate to congregation
Nov. 06, 2009
Archbishop Raymond L. Burke (CNS/Paul Haring)
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Archbishop Raymond Burke’s Oct. 17 appointment to the powerful Congregation for Bishops offers an illustration of how in the Vatican, even the ordinary can be extraordinary.
The appointment means that the 61-year-old Burke, a frequently polarizing figure during his 12-year run as a bishop in the United States, is now in a position to put his stamp on the next generation of Catholic bishops all over the world.
At one level, Pope Benedict XVI’s decision to tap Burke for the role was the dictionary definition of pro forma. Of the 33 members of the Congregation for Bishops at the beginning of 2009, 25 were current or former Vatican officials, including Burke’s predecessor as prefect of the Apostolic Signatura, the church’s highest court. (Burke was actually appointed on Oct. 17 along with another recently installed curial official, Spanish Cardinal Antonio Cañizares Llovera, who heads the Vatican’s liturgical office.)
That preponderance of Vatican prelates is partly because the Congregation for Bishops has to vet nominees from around the world, and Vatican officials control the archives where possible skeletons may lurk. In addition, the Congregation for Bishops meets for an entire morning every two weeks, and it’s simply more practical to expect prelates based in Rome to show up.
Yet seen through American eyes, Burke -- who’s widely expected to become a cardinal in the next consistory, the event in which new cardinals are installed -- is hardly just another Vatican official.
As the bishop of La Crosse, Wis., from 1995 to 2003, and then as archbishop of St. Louis from 2004 to 2008, Burke earned a reputation as a strong conservative voice on matters of both faith and politics. During the 2004 election, Burke publicly said he would not administer Communion to Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, a Catholic and at the time the Democratic nominee for president. He also once blasted a benefit concert by pop singer Sheryl Crow for a Catholic children’s hospital in St. Louis because she’s pro-choice.
Since being called to Rome in 2008, Burke has hardly gone quiet. In a September 2008 interview with an Italian newspaper, Burke said that the U.S. Democratic Party risks becoming the “party of death” because of its positions on bioethical questions. He’s also insisted that nothing can justify voting for a candidate who’s “anti-life” and “anti-family.”
As a member of the Congregation for Bishops, Burke now has a seat at the table when possible new bishops are evaluated and proposed to the pope. (The Congregation for Bishops handles most appointments in the Catholic church, except for those in mission territories, which are prepared by the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, and those in the 22 Eastern rites in communion with Rome, which are handled by the Congregation for Oriental Churches.)
Burke becomes one of five Americans who sit on the congregation, the second largest national bloc after the Italians, who have 12 -- nine cardinals, including Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, the congregation’s prefect, and three bishops. The other four Americans are Cardinal William Levada, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith; Cardinal Justin Rigali of Philadelphia; Cardinal Francis Stafford, former head of the Apostolic Penitentiary; and Cardinal Bernard Law, archpriest of Rome’s Basilica of St. Mary Major.
Like other important Vatican offices, the Congregation for Bishops has a staff that handles its day-to-day operations, but policy is set by the formal members of the congregation who are appointed by the pope. While many offices have full meetings of members only once a month or less frequently, the Congregation for Bishops meets more often because of the high volume of nominations to be reviewed.
When a diocese becomes vacant, it’s the job of the papal nuncio, or ambassador, in that country to solicit input on the needs of that diocese and to work with the local bishops and bishops’ conference to identify potential nominees. The nuncio prepares a terna, or list of three names, which is submitted to the Congregation for Bishops, along with extensive documentation on the candidates.
Members of the congregation are expected to carefully review all the documentation before meetings, and each is expected to offer an opinion about the candidates and the order in which they should be presented to the pope. Ultimately, it’s up to the pope to decide who’s named to any given diocese, but in most cases popes simply sign off on the recommendations made by the congregation.
To be sure, Burke’s nomination doesn’t mean he can single-handedly control who becomes a bishop, whether in the United States or anywhere else. For one thing, he’s simply one of five Americans on the congregation, and the least senior. At least initially, his input on American appointments is unlikely to be decisive.
Most observers say that aside from the pope himself, the two most powerful players in determining who becomes a bishop in the United States today are the current nuncio, Italian Archbishop Pietro Sambi, and Rigali of Philadelphia. (Rigali is a longtime veteran of Rome himself, and a close friend of Re.)
By itself, Burke’s appointment doesn’t alter that calculus. Sambi in particular is believed to have reservations about the pugnacious, and occasionally partisan, episcopal style that Burke came to symbolize.
On the other hand, Burke’s influence may grow with time.
He’s by far the youngest of the current crop of Americans on the congregation (the next youngest, Levada, is 73, and Rigali is 74). Since appointments are for five-year terms and may be renewed until a prelate reaches the age of 80, Burke could be involved in bishops’ appointments for the next two decades. At some point he may well become the senior American in the process, with a correspondingly greater impact.
Whatever happens, one thing seems clear. If anyone suspected that the decision to bring Burke to Rome last year was a way of muzzling him, or limiting his influence in the United States, it certainly doesn’t seem to be playing out that way.
John L. Allen Jr. is NCR senior correspondent. His e-mail address is jallen@ncronline.org.
"Burke earned a reputation as
"Burke earned a reputation as a strong conservative voice on matters of both faith and politics"
I think "a strong orthodox voice" would be a better way of saying it.
"The Church in this world
"The Church in this world will always have her sick, will always have sores in her members, great and small...."
from The Spirit of Catholicism by Karl Adam.
The Crossroad Publishing Company (November 1, 1997)
ISBN-10: 0824517180
ISBN-13: 978-0824517182
"So it may happen, and it must happen, that pastor and flock, bishop, priest, and layman are not always worthy mediators and recipients of God's grace, and that the infinitely holy is sometimes warped and distorted in passing through them. Wherever you have men, you are bound to have a restricted outlook and narrowness of judgment. For talent is rare, and genius comes only when God calls it. Eminent popes, bishops of great spiritual force, theologians of genius, priests of extraordinary graces and devout layfolk: these must be, not the rule, but the exception. God raises them up only at special times, when He needs them for His Church. We may and should pray for them, but we cannot reckon on their coming. And so as a rule it is the ordinary and average man who bears God's truth and grace through the world. The Church has from God the guarantee that she will not fall into error regarding faith or morals; but she has no guarantee whatever that every act and decision of ecclesiastical authority will be excellent and perfect. Mediocrity and even defects are possible. "The weak and the little hath God chosen that He may confound the strong." It is true that the power of divine truth and grace is manifested all the more gloriously because of this weakness. But reflective Catholics must feel and be pained by the conflict which arises out of the contrast between the sublimity, depth and power of divine revelation and the weakness of the human, too- human factor. The same phenomenon is repeated in the history of the Church throughout the centuries which so tragically moulded the relation of our Lord to His disciples. They were unable in their small mirrors to receive all the rays of light which went forth from His divine Person and to transmute them without loss into living forces."
"Still more palpable and painful does the conflict between the power of God and the weakness of man become when the in-streaming life of grace and truth is checked by human passions, by sin and vice, when Christ as He is realized in human history is dragged through the dust of the street, through the commonplace and the trivial, and over masses of rubbish. That is the deepest tragedy, the very tragedy of the Divine, when It is dispensed by unworthy hands and received by unworthy lips. An immoral laity, bad priests, bishops and popes—these are the saddest wounds of the Body of the mystical Christ. This is what grieves the earnest Catholic and inspires his sorrowful lamentation, when he sees these wounds and is unable to help. "The Church," says Cardinal Newman, "is ever ailing, and lingers on in weakness, 'always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in her body.'" It is an essential property of the Church to be so, because of her vocation to save men. Nowhere else does evil become so visible, because nowhere else is it so keenly fought. "She can never work out of the sphere of evil." As her Master came not for the whole, but for the sick, so the Church in this world will always have her sick, will always have sores in her members, great and small."
God bless,
Moses
That was one of the
That was one of the profoundest things I've read in a long, long time. Thank you for submitting it.
The terms "Orthodox" and
The terms "Orthodox" and (politically) conservative are not one in the same thing. One can be orthodox- invested in the Church and its teachings- without being politically conservative-at least as that term is currently used in the U.S.. Burke muddied the lines between those definitions for years in the U.S.- by supporting the conservative wing of the Republican party and in doing so polarizing the members of his own Church- especially the Archdiocese of St. Louis where he did irreparable harm. The members of the Polish parish that he all but destroyed were nothing but orthodox but failed to acquiesce to a power play over funds. Archbishop Carlson will likely be cleaning up the sex abuse cases for decades - because his predecessor was so involved in politics that he closed his eyes to real matters of faith. Receipt of the sacraments is not a political act - but an act of faith from which grace flows and draws believers to Christ. Burke would push them away. What next- nomination of Rush Limbaugh to an episcopal position??!!
"The terms "Orthodox" and
"The terms "Orthodox" and (politically) conservative are not one in the same thing."
--Not in these United States. Come now I would think that at this point you have realized that the American bishops are genine GOPers by now and ahve been as long as I can remember and I am only 40. (Don;t touch that 'only 40 quip)
One can be orthodox- invested in the Church and its teachings- without being politically conservative-at least as that term is currently used in the U.S.. Burke muddied the lines between those definitions for years in the U.S.- by supporting the conservative wing of the Republican party and in doing so polarizing the members of his own Church- especially the Archdiocese of St. Louis where he did irreparable harm.
--in the Chuch, there's no such thing as irreperable harm just look at Chrysler back in 1980 and, wait, not a good example...........
Archbishop Carlson will likely be cleaning up the sex abuse cases for decades - because his predecessor was so involved in politics that he closed his eyes to real matters of faith.
--Won't every bishop? Those knucklheads made a mess of things. Lucky for them, American shave short memories
Receipt of the sacraments is not a political act - but an act of faith from which grace flows and draws believers to Christ. Burke would push them away. What next- nomination of Rush Limbaugh to an episcopal position??!!
--Limbaugh as bishop wouldn;t surprise me. if they're smart, Mullally at Ford Motor should be the next Pope so he can re-brand the proudct and sell :)
Burke is known for confusing
Burke is known for confusing all his opinions with the truth. He has an opinion on everything, which he thinks everyone is entitled to hear. Apparently he thinks everything he says is the truth and most everyone else is in error, at least those not agreeing with his opinions are in error and their souls are in danger. When he speaks, we would be led to believe that we are hearing the voice of God. However, I never found his voice sounding like the voice of head of the Church, Jesus,the one who proclaimed good news. Burke is one of those people clearly full of himself, full of unsolicited opinions, thus frequently manifesting a large ego. I prefer prelates with great intelligence and big hearts, hearts that are pastoral and understanding of all of us poor sinners, qualities possessed by so many of our bishops at one time, the bishops that lead the Church during Vatican II and prior to John Paul II taking the helm.
Bringing the likes of Burke
Bringing the likes of Burke to Rome, at such a relatively young age, is clearly "stacking the court" for the future in the direction of reactionary, ultra-conservative selection processes. Look at the trends: Bp. Trautman standing as a lone, sane voice against the ridiculous English "transliteration" (not translation) of the old Latin liturgy insisted on by Rome--all to recapture "transcendence" vs. immanence. The current politburo at the Vatican under Benedict's ultramontane hand is moving rapidly in the direction of totally reversing the spirit of Vatican II (ad orientem position???), trying desperately to recapture that which had been "lost" over 40 years. Above all, I detest the high-handedness of beaurocrats in Rome who simply ignore good American English, think they know it all better, and reverse the good opinions of the USCCB as submitted to them and reinstate their own bad English.
Folks, the RC church is going full speed ahead in the direction of an older fascist, controlling style--one inspirinmg fear in anyone who disagrees or even has an opinion. Big Brother is not only watching but is ever ready to punish.
Where is another Roncalli when we so desperately need him??? Start praying!
As a cradle Catholic, I have
As a cradle Catholic, I have been to the top of the mountain and back into the valley. During the 1960's, I was a member of the Community of John XXIII. These five years were the best years of my life regarding Catholicm. We took the message of Roncalli and lived our faith.
Now is a different story. It is time to put the Catholic Church into Chapter 11 bankruptcy, clean house from the top down and reformat a Church that would have folks knocking down the doors to participate and join. It is time to stop the Vatican power games and start to live as Christ did.
Burke will definitely leave his stain in Rome just as he did in LaCrosse and St. Louis. Instead of sending our rejects to the Vatican, send them to the Missions in South Dakota to do some good.
AMDG
Bob Lutz
It seems like the church is
It seems like the church is picking Bishops in the US from the lunatic fringe of the clergy. Burke is mearly one of the more extreme examples. If Rome was trying to do its best to destroy the church they couldn't be doing it any better than many, perhaps most of the Bishops appointed in the last 20 years. The church had beetter bishops in the pre Vatican II 1950's. To quote Chester A. Reilly, "What a revolting situation."
"Burke earned a reputation as
"Burke earned a reputation as an" ultra conservative sicko who gets his identity by 'cozying' up to the Pope. It worked, didn't it? This is a strong message from the Vatican: "Play my game and there will be rich rewards."
"a strong orthodox voice" is
"a strong orthodox voice" is not divisive.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that
Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Theologians and scripture
Theologians and scripture scholars call this "Jewish hyperbole", typical in classical Judaistic/Rabbinical writings and was NOT to be taken literally. So Veritas is going to kill progressive Catholics w/ a sword? You need to take a good course in systematic theology.
I agree.
I agree.
I would be cautious about
I would be cautious about granting Archbishop Burke any personal influence he might not be due. By custom, the head of the Signatura is a member of the Congregation of Bishops. Archbishop Burke's appointment falls within what is expected for his position. A better check on his influence will be to see wehether he becomes Cardinal in the next consistory. If he is passed over on the first time around, then we can think that he is not as important as some make him to be.
God help us!
God help us!
One of the best illustrations
One of the best illustrations of how the Vatican utilizes the Peter Principle.
For sure!
For sure!
Darker days are on the
Darker days are on the horizon for decades to come.
This is one more disaster for
This is one more disaster for a chruch already in need of Hospice care.
Richard Earl on Nov. 09,
Richard Earl on Nov. 09, 2009.
You stated:
"This is one more disaster for a chruch already in need of Hospice care."
----------------------------------------
You stated this very well and, sadly, you are most correct.
This is so very unfortunate.
This is so very unfortunate. Again, the deck will be stacked and there will be no serious and balanced leadership in the US until we experience a true unbiased balance in the Vatican. Can we wait another 100 years? I think not. It's up to the laity to demand this balance.
"It's up to the laity to
"It's up to the laity to demand this balance."
As long as the laity continue to drop their shekels in each weekend's collection basket, Rome will have no incentive to strive toward balance.
Money talks.
"the deck will be
"the deck will be stacked"?
"balanced leadership"?
What does that mean? You looking for some bishops that support ordination of women, and some that don't? Perhaps some bishops that are OK with liturgical abuses and some that aren't? A nice mix of pro-choice and pro-life bishops? Some who show concern for the poor and some that don't?
How about if we simply stick with leaders who are faithful to their vows, and faithful to church teaching. Is that asking too much?
Thanks for your examples of
Thanks for your examples of dichotomous, i.e., black-and-white, thinking.
This kind of thinking is typical of folks who gravitate toward authority figures and symbols of power.
Which is precisely what we have in the person of the pope and his royal retinue.
And thank you, for avoiding
And thank you, for avoiding the underlying question: What does "balanced leadership" mean to you?
Hoping that question is not too black-and-white for you.
"What does 'balanced
"What does 'balanced leadership' mean to you?"
It means (in matters ecclesial), inter alia:
+ Not seeing things in black-and-white
+ Not telling people "my way or the highway"
+ Not encouraging people to believe that everything from the boss is
infallible
+ Not confusing doctrine with truth
+ Not ignoring or diminishing the lessons of history
+ Not leading from fear
+ Not ignoring the reality of change in the external and internal environments
+ Not promoting divisiveness
+ Not going on public display with artifacts of imperial power
+ Not habitually using threats, coercion, intimidation, and other negative
behaviors to get one's way
+ Not confusing giving orders with leadership
Joseph Jaglowicz
MA, Human Resources Development & Management
Retired Human Resources Specialist, U.S. Civil Service
How about bishops who not
How about bishops who not only follow Canon Law (what Burke was best at) but the civil law of the United States, and turn in their priests who abuse children to the civil authorities for prosecution? That would be a start.
You can talk about all the liturgical abuses you want. In reality, how often does that happen, and do you have documented evidence of that? The documented cases of child abuse, though, and the inaction of the bishops (STILL) in terms of submitting the guilty to civil authorities is astounding.
GOD HELP US ALL
GOD HELP US ALL
Who knows anything about the
Who knows anything about the machinations of the Vatican? It is all secret. It is hard to imagine what it must be like living in that secret world. You'd have to go to the archives of the old Soviet Union to find anything else like it. Who was responsible for Burke being there? No one knows. Amazingly Law is there. My own diocese has not had a bishop for some time.
Who knows what's happening? Who's been investigated? Are secular investigatory agencies used, like Kroll associates?
Perhaps Mr. Fox could also
Perhaps Mr. Fox could also write an article about him in his series "The Emerging Church"!!!
Doesn't sound much like the
Doesn't sound much like the Gospelvaluews to me.
Out of the five Americans on
Out of the five Americans on that congregation, I have lived under two of them as my Archbishop, Rigali and Burke. All I will say is that their poor examples are one of the many reasons I have chosen to leave the formal Church (comprised of power-hungry men), although I still hold the Catholic religion in my heart. If this appointment is a sign of future trends, may God have mercy on the future of the Church.
Nonsense! Poor example
Nonsense! Poor example indeed.
You hold the Heart of Jesus Christ by being obedient to His Way, His Truth, and His Life.
Return to Christ. Be Obedient.
God is NOT a democracy, and neither is His Faith Community. How arrogant to comtemplate that you may interpret the Truth of Jesus Christ without His Authority.
Blind obedience. That's all
Blind obedience. That's all the Church has ever wanted. I'll happily follow God without question, but not ridiculous man-made rules. I don't care how many times they claim divine inspiration, rules based in secrecy, discrimination and personal vainglory do not come from God.
If you'll happily follow God
If you'll happily follow God without question, then certainly you know that the words of scripture apply to you, as Jesus said in sending out the 72:
"Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me." (Luke 10:16)
And further validated by the Second Vatican Council:
Therefore, the Sacred Council teaches that bishops by divine institution have succeeded to the place of the apostles, as shepherds of the Church, and he who hears them, hears Christ, and he who rejects them, rejects Christ and Him who sent Christ. (Lumen Gentium #20)
It seems that the only "personal vainglory" on display is by those that think they are above the teaching authority of the Church.
A most beautiful example of
A most beautiful example of circular reasoning if ever I have seen one.
Don't confuse doctrine with
Don't confuse doctrine with history.
"[F]acts, as history teaches, carry greater weight than pure doctrine" (Joseph Ratzinger, HIGHLIGHTS OF VATICAN II, Paulist Press/Deus Books, 1966, p. 17).
Jesus did not establish the institutional church. All its structures, etc. were man-made.
Everything we need to know for our salvation can be found in the gospels, the teachings of Jesus.
You don't make any
You don't make any distinction between folling Jesus Christ and being blindly obedient to the leaders of The Catholic Church. Yet, there are times when I see quite a difference and, at those times, after study and prayerful discernment, I will comfortable stand apart from the authority of The Church and not feel that I am a lesser Christian or less of a Catholic for it.
Christ's peace be with you.
And from where does your
And from where does your authority come from? You may stand apart from the Church based on your own understanding of the truth. I will stand with the Church based on the promises of Christ. Who is the wise one.
I believe that Christ remains
I believe that Christ remains with me when I feel compelled to stand apart. I believe that is one of the promises of Christ. I also believe that he remains with you as well. We may have different positions, but the God I believe in, the Christ whom I believe died so we may be saved does not make the kind of distictions that you make about who is "wise".
Just the Facts on Nov. 09,
Just the Facts on Nov. 09, 2009.
You stated:
"Nonsense! Poor example indeed.
You hold the Heart of Jesus Christ by being obedient to His Way, His Truth, and His Life.
Return to Christ. Be Obedient.
God is NOT a democracy, and neither is His Faith Community. How arrogant to comtemplate that you may interpret the Truth of Jesus Christ without His Authority."
------------------------------------------
In other words, you are stating that if one is obedient, one can manipulate God? We can placate, control and bribe God to do what we want by being obedient. You said, "You hold the Heart of Jesus Christ by being obedient to His Way, His Truth, and His Life."
Actually, it is the Heart of Christ that holds us. Christ does not force submission upon anyone. Jesus told us that he "is meek and humble of heart" (Matthew 11:29), and our Church authorities, loving their power, turned Christ into the Righteous Judge that we see in the Sistine Chapel or the "Pantocrator" of Byzantine and modern cathedrals. And we have a duelistic picture of God.
The God that you are presenting in your posting is that God, the Father, is angry and distant. Jesus is an all powerful emperor, sitting on a throne that he refused to claim in his earthly life, and well, we'll forget about the Holy Spirit.
You stated that "God is not a democracy." Of course not! In your vision the Kingdom of Heaven (and certainly the Church) is an absolutist dictatorship that needs law, order and a clear system of who belongs and who doesn't. Forget about mercy, meekness or a transformed heart!
You are presenting a Church of God, where clergy are trained, dressed up and are largely rewarded for following role and function, rather than their ability at fostering relationship, spirituality or even showing competence. And of course in your Church, the clergy covet all forms of power: titles, costumes, precedence, roles and perks.
This is "Churchianity" and bears very little resemblance to Christianity. Your 'Churchianity' is populated by people afraid of hell. And you are certainly a spokesperson for such a stance---'If you are not obedient, groveling, before the authority, you will end up going to Hell!'
Christianity only makes sense to people who have been through hell, that is, who have drunk deeply of life's difficulties. It was Jesus who taught us to "Go, learn the meaning of he words, what I want is mercy, not sacrifice. I did not come for the virtuous, but for the sick." We are all in need of mercy---and we do not earn it by being obedient. Remember, Jesus did not come to change the mind of God about humanity; Jesus came to change the mind of humanity about God.
What you are presenting is a pre-Christian concept---it bears no resemblance to Christ.
"Anonymous" rightly
"Anonymous" rightly distinguishes between faith and church. The institutional church, of course, should facilitate one's growth in faith, but when matters ecclesial prevent such development, the Christian/Catholic must confront the question, "Can I afford to continue my personal participation in, and financial support to, this dysfunctional body?"
For many people, the answer was/is an unequivocal "No." They see continual involvement as enabling sick and sinful organizational behaviors. They see continued participation and support as dangerous to the larger Body of Christ.
"Just the Facts," you have not given any "facts" in your reply. Instead, you have revealed values and assumptions that many good Christians would regard as inimical to the gospel message.
Before calling other people "arrogant," please look in the mirror. We often see in others what we fail to see in ourselves.
I don't see the reasoning
I don't see the reasoning behind this article. From everything listed about the past performance of Archbishop Burke, it appears he is doing exactl;y what he is supposed to be doing - following the Magisterium. Isn't that what we are all supposed to be doing as well?
NO! We are supposed to be
NO! We are supposed to be folllowing Jesus who showed us about relationsips: loving, inclusive. How comfortable would Jesus be in the Vatican with all that wealth on display and all the princely garments and titles? If this appointment was at the behest of Benedict, it tells us a great deal of what we can expect from him. I am sad beyond words.
You obviously do not know
You obviously do not know Archbishop Burke. He is an extremely kind and humble man concerned for the souls of his flock. Burke is caring like Christ when He told the woman caught in adultery to "go and sin no more."
Problem is people do not like items contrary to the truth brought to their attention, it is easier to ignore them.
BTW the article fails to mention that Ms. Crowe did several advertising spots for the embryonic stem cell intitative that ended up passing in Missouri in 2006. Thus she was publically working against elements at the core teaching of the Church. Her headlining a benefit concert for a Catholic Charity several months later was completely inappropriate. Burke called a spade a spade.
Finally, I would like to thank the Vatican. I had the opportunity to travel to Rome a few years ago. I toured the Vatican Museum and the Basilica's. If the artifcts which were donated were stuck away in some private collection I (and everyone else) would never had the opportunity to view them.
Further there is nothing stopping all the people who would buy the so called "wealth" of the Vatican from just donating their proceeds to the poor instead. The wealth diatribe is such a straw man argument.
It may have been
It may have been inappropriate for someone to advocate for embryonic stem cell research, but it certainly is not inappropriate for someone to raise money for a charity. This is where Burke, and many others, make a mistake. They do not look at the deed, but rather condemn the individual who did something of which they do not approve, such that no matter the good or bad of whatever else the individual does, he or she is shunned.
Tip, You are a fool, if you
Tip,
You are a fool, if you knew how we suffered under Burke and the nonsense he did in St. Louis. Bringing fringe groups (yes men and women)into the Archdiocese to fluff his ego and ignoring the priests who have served so faithfully. Closing churches and setting the Archdiocese back 100 years.
It is sad that he will influence the next generation of Bishops and chase more of the faithful away from the church.
And the most seminarians in
And the most seminarians in decades.
Please, don't confuse
Please, don't confuse quantity with quality. Not the same.
Last I heard, the Church is
Last I heard, the Church is the Bride of Christ. Following Jesus means following the teachings of the Church. I have no idea why so many who read NCR are so quick to follow thier own conscience and not the Magesterium. A properly formed conscience MUST conform to official Church teaching. Otherwise, you are lying to yourself and we know where the origins of all lies begin. I am not here to tell anyone it is easy to accept official Chruch teaching. Hell, it makes my life more difficult. But if the Church errs on a teaching of a personal sexual matter, who is to say it did not err on more fundamental matter, like the ressurection for instance. It is like a house of cards. Take away one teaching and the rest will slowly follow. It is what happened to protestants these last 500 years.
How can the Church be the
How can the Church be the bride of Christ---that means that the Church would have a feminine association---remember, women are weak, inferior, misbegotten males...the bride of Christ reference is pure heresy.
Tom, if, as you write, "a
Tom, if, as you write, "a properly informed conscience MUST conform to the offical Church teaching", then I don't see that there is any point in having a conscience at all. And I do agree "that if it turns out that The Church can and has erred on a teaching of a personsl sexual matter, who is to say it did not err on more fundamental matter..." I think this is what has so frightened the leaders in Rome. But, the solution to stubburnly hold onto to something false because of fear that it may challange the credibility in other areas, seems a bit dangerous and cowardly to me. Why not be open to and admit err and trust The Holy Spirit to help in moving forward? Those who are unwilling to do this, including some of our leaders, seem to me to have very little faith.
The term "Bride of Christ"
The term "Bride of Christ" would seem fitting for Burke and his French-cuff types. If you follow the gender idea through, it would mean that the leaders of the Church are to be wives of Christ, hence they need to be feminine, not masculine.
I know its a metaphor, but for a religion that likes to confuse metaphor and fact at will it is quite humorous.
Tom A. on Nov. 09, 2009. You
Tom A. on Nov. 09, 2009.
You stated:
"Last I heard, the Church is the Bride of Christ. Following Jesus means following the teachings of the Church. I have no idea why so many who read NCR are so quick to follow thier own conscience and not the Magesterium. A properly formed conscience MUST conform to official Church teaching...."
------------------------------------------
'A properly formed conscience MUST conform to official Church teaching'.
Really? What about people who are not Catholic? The official Church taught that the Church "is the Bride of Christ". In the book of Revelation---the new and heavenly Jerusalem, is the Jerusalem at the end of time. The official Church appropriated the title "Bride of Christ" to themselves, the Official Church.
We have the dogmas of our faith---that which is expressed in the Nicene Creed. But every 'burp' coming from the Vatican does not constitute matter that we have to conform our consciences to. As far as Burke is concerned, even other churchmen disagree with him. If you don't believe me, ask Cardinal Sean O'Malley, OFM, Cap. of Boston.
I you feel that way then
I you feel that way then become Protestant! It is amazing how many people here have a Protestant view of ecclesiology and then complain that the Catholic Church is to Catholic!
Veritas on Nov. 09, 2009.
Veritas on Nov. 09, 2009.
You stated:
"I you feel that way then become Protestant! It is amazing how many people here have a Protestant view of ecclesiology and then complain that the Catholic Church is to Catholic!"
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Are you aware of how CORRECT the Protestants were in so many of their criticisms? The Catholic Church just recently agreed with almost all of Luther's 95 points of disagreement with the Catholic Church (at the time, Luther was an Augustinian priest). Luther taught correctly that Christians must be free in their relationship to/with God. What makes them free? Purely and simply the salvation won by Jesus Christ. And one receives that freedom through faith in Jesus Christ. Nothing one does MAKES one free. No ordained priest/minister, no Church practice, no outward observance of rules and regulations can make one free.
By the way, Luther did not condemn good works such as serving the poor, or fasting and almsgiving. But he stated "Good words do not make a man (woman) good, but a good man (woman) does good works."
Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior won for us freedom as St. Paul cites in his letter to the Galatians 5:13 "Christians, you were called for freedom!"
Hmm. I'm unaware of any
Hmm. I'm unaware of any directive from the magisterium to champion the cause of a certain political party. Anyone familiar with Burke's history in St. Louis would be legitimately forgiven for presuming that Burke is not only a card-carrying member of the GOP, but a sworn advocate of it's causes on the public stage. "...following the Magisterium"? --phooey.
When did Archbishop Burke
When did Archbishop Burke champion the cause of any political party?
Very good question! "When did
Very good question!
"When did Archbishop Burke champion the cause of any political party?"
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0804933.htm
I don't hear him or the pope threatening to refuse the eucharist to very many war-mongering Republicans, do you?
Logically, criticism of one
Logically, criticism of one party does not equate "championing the cause" of another.
It is important to recognize the Archbishop Burke has also said he would withhold communion from Republicans as well. This policy is clearly related to abortion, not membership in a political party.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2007-10-03-burke-giul...
Unfortunately your premise
Unfortunately your premise and comparison are faulty. Abortion has been repeatedly condemned in every situation and every circumstance and is absolutely gravely immoral and evil in every circumstance. War has never been so condemned by the Church; the Catechism even holds out the possibility that, in certain circumstances, war is not only acceptable but morally obligatory.
The pope's efforts have the
The pope's efforts have the unintended consequence of assuring marginalization of Vatican Catholics in the spiritual world of the future. Without open-minded members in the official Church, Catholics will either leave or form alternative congregations, and groups like Catholic Womenpriests will flourish.
Pope Benedict is a devisive,
Pope Benedict is a devisive, scholar who is trying to undo Vatican II and move the Church away from the importance of the "people" as Church and refocusing on the majesty of priesthood. The people are not being served well by this retro conservative attitude and it will have long negative impact on future generations. This Burke is just another example of Benedeict's bubble.
Name one thing Pope Benedict
Name one thing Pope Benedict has done that has undone Vatican II! I bet you can't.
Goodness...polarizing...pugna
Goodness...polarizing...pugnacious and partisan... ?? The good Archbishop is only polarizing to those who wish to scorn the teaching of their Church. Only a heretic would have reason to find a problem with Archbishop Burke, as he is very true to those teachings. God bless him with good health, continued strength and wisdom, and long life.
IMO, this is bad news for
IMO, this is bad news for Catholics who have been trying to engage in reasonable, intellectually responsible debate on "life" issues and who wish to keep the respective powers of the church and state from contaminating one another
This is the problem with some
This is the problem with some 'catholics'...There can be no debate on 'LIFE' issues. It is settled and has been since the beginning of the Church. Read the Didache! "You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born."
The teaching of Christ through His personally selected apostles...There can be no debate, only heresy. You accept the teaching of the Church or you do not.
God bless Archbishop Burke for having the strength to stand up against heretics.
I am from St. Louis, where
I am from St. Louis, where Burke was an unmitigated disaster. Instead of being a bishop who was a pastor and symbol of unity, he caused havoc, discord, excommunications,decreases in number of contributors, well-deserved media ridicule, and anguish among all Catholics who were not fans of Karl Rove and his ilk. Now his malevoent influence can run world-wide.
Can a Catholic really
Can a Catholic really consider, clear direction consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church, and the largest ordination classes in decades unmitigated disasters?
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