Religious women question Vatican probe

I am extremely dissapointed and concern at the position that the Vatican has taken. I am aware that we are all human beings but the double standards of the Vatican is very palpable. All the good in me I owe it to my parents and specially to all those nuns that thoughtout my entire life gave the courage to stand against what it was not right. I bless every single day of my life for the gift of the education that they gave me. My children have not been so lucky because nuns where taken out of Catholic Schools - religious education is not the same without their presence in the school.
What is wrong with the Vatican - I do not want to think that it is so corrupted.
I will keep you all in my prayers. God Bless!!

I have been outraged about this latest Vatican "investigation." The nuns have built the church in the United States. They influenced my life and the lives of my children. If there is any investigation that should go forward, it shoudl be the nuns investigating the self-satisfied, power-intoxicated Vatican.

THERE IS TRANSPARENCY…AND IT’S NOT PRETTY

If women religious kept their eye on canon law, which is mostly concerned about men’s authority and Vatican history of women’s support they would have no problem being bold before the face of their inquisitors.

Think! When did the Roman Church do for women religious what they do for their male priests and bishops? When did they educate a nun or sister, when did the Roman Church support your ministries with funds, when did they build you a retirement home or pay for your infirmed sisters’ care, or pay for your health insurance, or your retirement plan? They do all these things for themselves. Many of our older sisters spent much of their religious lives cooking for priests, doing their laundry, cleaning rectories and acting as their secretaries, but rarely their partners in ministry.

All they have done for women religious is ‘give’ canonical status for which you have sent hours working on and then sending to Rome dozens of community documents which are often returned for clarification, correction (theirs) before the final ‘acceptance’.

Some communities have let their ‘canonical’ status go and lived to tell about. No community ever lost a thing by leaving this ‘status’ behind. There is no longer anything honorable about canonical status so why jump through all their hoops? Go in peace!

How about this... I say all Catholics who use birth control, have gay friends or family or are gay themselves, ever divorced and...hmmm, what else am I missing... while we're at it get rid of the female altar severs. Throw them all out. And stop bringing those pesky kids up during communion to be blessed- they waste time and it's annoying. Then the church would be perfect. Sure.

I will pray for the sisters who were and are a very big part of my life. As for me and my family, we aren't going anywhere. This is OUR church. We believe the majority of Catholics are regular people and families trying their best to follow in the footsteps of Jesus. They are spirited, God loving people who just happen to be the backbone of this church. We are in the business of building His kingdom, not in tearing it apart.

THE ONLY WAY ROME LEARNS IS THROUGH POCKETBOOK PENANCE. HOPEFULLY THEY WILL NOT TRY TO TRANSFER THIS PENANCE TO THE SISTERS UNDER THE GUISE OF LOVING CONCERN FOR THEIR QUALITY OF LIFE THROUGH FORCED CLOSINGS, MERGERS AND CONFISCATIONS.

Aug. 18, 2009

Is there any room in the psyche of the conservative elements of Catholicism to embrace and rejoice in the Second Vatican Council's call for reform and renewal?

peace,
jbk

I don't think it is the habit (if you are meaning you have to wear a veil) that draws women. People want to see an authentic living of the Gospel. Families use to have 3-5 children. Now they may only have 1 or 2. One newspaper cited that families are having .8 children. This means some couples are having 1 or no children. Where do you get vocations? Couples must have children and raise them to be open to a religious vocation. There are many people, age 40 and under, who have never really seen long term commitment.
Also, there are many families that are not committed to going to Church, or relgious education classes. I have had parents relply to me that they asked their child if they wanted to go to relgious ed. classes. The child did not want to (but they will go to a baseball practice at this time). The child/teenager made the decision about Mass and religious ed class, not the parent.
If a child or young person is really never taken to Mass, how are they going to develop a relationship with Jesus-- that will in turn develop into a religious vocation.

Dear Admirer,

I suggest you read Sr. Sandra Scheiders' essay, published yesterday on the NCR website, to learn more about vocations, reasons for the "decline" (NOT what the popular assumption is, but what the real historical reasons are), and why we who have stayed do stay and continue to remain.

Plesae find and read the complete text at:
http://ncronline.org/news/women/why-they-stayed

The nail you and others hit on the head with your point is the one driven into the body of Christ. Nowhere do you mention Jesus, just the RCC magisterium whose teaching authority chooses too often to interpret holy writing in favor of its own selfish ends. This is the same dynamic Jimmy Carter says of his own church regarding the religious opression of women.
There are two churches in the Catholic church. One reflects the history of power and control that puts Jesus on a wall much like a hunter hangs a trophy in his office. It's hierarchy at times acts as if it is closer Nicolo Machiavelli than God. It can be tracked often in history attempting to stamp out that part of itself it cannot contain.
The other church reflects the history of salvation and faith through selfless act of kindness, healing, and education struggling to see the face of Christ in the widow the orphan and the poor. It rises again and again in history to give life in abundance.
It is not that the Sisters have abandoned the church rather it is the church that has abandoned Christ. Sinning against God is small stuff compared to sinning against the Vatican. Cardinal Law's ministerial upgrade vs the threat of excommunication of some whose conscience won't allow them to be muzzled on issues of homosexuality, female ordination and optinal celibacy ilustrates this.
Since 1727 this face of Christ in America is clearly seen in the corporate works of mercy, healng, and education the sisters have spent their lives bestowing on many grateful and ungrateful but very lucky catholics.
If we do not protect them and we lose the opportunity to help them we should beat our breasts and beg for a forgiveness we do not deserve!

It would be so helpful if you knew what you were writing about. Sisters never abandoned schools. They recognized that the laity had a vocation to teach and were fully prepared to do so.

Any number of sister sponsored closed because the competion for HMO's and doctors placed them in positions where they would have to compromise their values.

Any number of intelligent, free and gifted women do not want to be part of a religious community because of the refusal of Church officials to recognize women as equal to men. They don't wish to serve Church which patronizes them and insults them.

So, please, stop commenting on something you know nothing about.

Dottie

If people get their ideas of religious sisters from EWTN, they will only see them prostrate on the floor before men at mass. I'm not sure how that would attract anyone to religious life, are you?

Please read Sr.Sandra M. Schneiders article "Why They Stayed", available on NCR for the real reasons for the supposed 'decrease' in vocations. It's nice to postulate that it's because of habits and presence, but it has nothing to do with that. The bottom line is that when population figures decline and when joining an order is not the only game in town, the numbers won't match the 'salad days.' Learn your history, please.

As to the inability for the orders to see the final report, well, that's a quintessential example of Rome's incessant need for power and control. Those guys just get more arrogant by the day.

O, that it was as simple as fashion.

Another possible cause of the decline in vocations parallels the decline in church attendance over the past 25 years - the institution of the Catholic Church has alienated its own people by refusing to mature in its understandings about human dignity and equality of women and people who are homosexual. Those of us who are committed to gospel service and feel called to religious life have very few healthy options in which to explore our vocations because the institutional leadership of the church puts its energy into keeping the people of God infantilized rather than growing and flourishing in ways that bring Christ's love to bear in the world...

Please remind me....What was it that The Christ did with the "professional religous" of his day?

You are dreaming in the 16th century, and WHY should religious orders of women go about in 16th century garb?
And the "official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church"? What? Subjugation and demoralizing of women? Is that any different from the Taliban? Everything that comes from Rome is NOT the way of Jesus Christ. Do some reading, for God's sake, and I don't mean the Baltimore Catechism. Try Edward Schillebeecx, who just died, God rest and bless him. His spirituality and intellectual reach shook Rome, too.

"Universality" does not mean that you believe anything you want to believe and the suggestion that the re-assertion of this truth is in some way medieval and therefore by implication erroneous is, quite frankly, nonsensical. Without the recognition that there is an orthodoxy to safeguard the Church might as well fold up. I don't know who advised you to join another church but, whoever it was, he had a point if you genuinely hold the view that there is anything reprehensible in this visitation (which is long overdue if the statements forthcoming from some of the representatives of these nuns are anything to go by). You are welcome to take your dollars with you; I would sooner see the entire institution bankrupted than permit the truth to be betrayed.

I agree with R. Dennis Porch's comments. Most people today are very selective with their church contributions either giving to specific charities or to specific church groups whose ministries they know about and support.

As far as parish church contributions are concerned many more people are restricting their contributions and directly depositing monies to their parishes via accounts set up for building maintenance, heating and AC, parish outreach programs, etc., etc., etc. Gone are the days of the blank check. People I have talked to are very cautious about giving to diocesan fund raising campaigns.

If there were some way for the sisters of the United States and LCWR to organize for a vote of "No Confidence" in the U.S. bishops I would certainly add my own NO vote. The bishops' credibility on the whole is gone and there is no way to get around that fact.

Transparency & Accountability are not among the bishops' strong suits.

Sister Maureen Paul Turlish
maureenpaulturlish@yahoo.com

Bravo, Dr. Porch! As long as leadership remains the province of men, and only men, the church will suffer. Humpf..."join another church", indeed! ;o)

Dr. Porch,
Thank you so much for your comments. You so eloquently expressed exactly how I feel. Keep spreading your message to anyone who will listen.

Dr. Porch, leaving aside whether womens religious orders ought to be investigated by the Vatican at this time and for these reasons, there is one area in which an investigation would be well-deserved and is certainly in order.

And that is the same issue which you cite in counterpoint: the sexual abuse and exploitation of children and vulnerable adults by nuns. Victims and their advocates have long been asserting that the orders have tried very hard to perpetuate a myth that "it didn't happen here." Certainly the orders of women have been as intransigient and hard-hearted towards those who would accuse their peers of abuse as have the orders of men and the dioceses. Their response has been every bit as corporate and institutional.

So have a care when you directly or by implication use abuse survivors as rhetorical pawns in this discussion. For those survivors who continue to march outside, asking to be heard at the LCWR conference, and those they represent in their protests have been just as wronged by nuns as others have been by male religious and clergy.

The irony is that, if anything, the men have now accepted that it happened, that it was a major problem, and that justice was necessary by and large. The women seem not to have gotten to the that point, yet. Their denial seems both deeper and wider.

There are many religious communities that could use your financial and moral support. Don't leave this dysfunctional Church. We need some people with sense.

My family has also pulled all of its contributions to the 'church' and have elected to donate them to organizations that are transparent and serve all God's people, regardless of belief or affiliation. We tired of the hypocrisy and the demand to 'obey' when the obeying meant bowing and scraping just because someone was supposedly a priest, bishop, pope. It's all baloney, and we feel more Catholic than ever.

We've been criticized in these forums for this decision, but we are convinced that the guys in charge only response to money, nothing else. And I wish more people would join us. They sure don't have any respect for the laity, despite what they might claim.

The fear is that good programs and services will fail if we pull the money. We are convinced that the programs will continue, maybe in another form, or under another banner. And without the bishops controlling them, maybe better.

If all of the church structures all over the world imploded tomorrow, the church would still remain. WE ARE THE CHURCH. And not just Rome and the bishops, even though they think they are.

Dear Dennis,                  

You have made some cogent observations.     I too,   find all of this secrecy and political intrigue within the institutional church,   along with the shadowy investigation of our women religious,   to be most distressing.     However,   THE Church is God’s people,   His Mystical Body — all of them flawed human beings and sinners,   including those people who smugly look down on their other brothers and sisters in Christ,   and casually invite them to leave.     Unfortunately,   many (including some bishops),   have come to view the sacraments as a “reward” or badge of merit for how well one keeps the rules,   and how little one questions injustice and legalism, — as opposed to understanding the sacraments as a source of grace and life which are necessary to heal our human brokenness.     One holy man has referred to such unofficial sacramental police as the   “most holy order of petty snipers”.
.

The institutional church is a hospital for sinners,   not a country club for saints.     Unless one subscribes to the heretical notion of salvation by one’s own sinful bootstrap effort,   we need all of the sacramental graces we can get — not arbitrary,   punishing exclusion.     ‘Nuf said on that.
.

Historically,   it was often the non-ordained who took the lead as reformers from within,   when the ordained hierarchy had taken her far off course from her holy mission of saving and healing souls.     Some were male or female religious,   and some were ordinary laity in the pews.     Many of those reformers and prophets were harshly persecuted in their own time,   but have later been vindicated and declared saints of the Church.     Holiness and effectiveness in a vocation are not validly determined by numbers.     Our Lord was not impressed with numbers.     He turned the legalism and religiosity of His day on its ear when He spoke of the Father's tender concern for the least of creation,   and heaven's rejoicing over the restoration of even one lost soul.
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When our bench of bishops met to discuss the “abuse problem” and the measures they would take to prevent abuse in the future,   they voted privately to exclude themselves from any investigation or disciplinary action.     Since that time they have been busy investigating everyone else within the Church outside of their exclusive hierarchical group.     This was/is a ham-handed abuse of power,   having nothing to do with spirituality and holiness,   and everything to do with politics and damage control.     They have brought suspicion and mistrust upon themselves,   individually and collectively,   because of it.     Many holy priests,   truly honorable men,   have been tainted by association.     Never-the-less,   the bishops are not THE Church,   merely flawed human institutional leaders having no claim to infallibility in their words or deeds.     Neither Holy Orders nor elevation to the episcopal office bestow perfection or holiness... but rather sacramental graces that one may choose to accept, or not.
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While we are praying for our women religious in their time of secretive investigation/persecution,   we should also hold prayerful intentions for the hierarchy at the source of it.     Like all of us,   they will one day face our Lord in the Particular Judgment — where those who have been given much,   will have much required of them... and hidden things will be revealed.

Thank you, Snowdrop. Do you know anything about LCWR and what a gifted group of women make up LCWR? If not, it is best that you remain silent.

The picketing survivors of sexual abuse by nuns who have kept vigil at the LCWR conference would tell you that such an investigation would be leaving the vixens to guard the roosters.

Women religious have not shown themselve to be sufficiently trustworthy in such matters to investigate any such thing.

Ken writes so vehemently: "It's one of the tools for accountability and transparency in the Church."
Here's another one for you Frere Charles! Accountabilit and transparency???

Alex, your naïveté is astonishing, really.

They might hear the results, but can they verify the accuracy? The report can say anything it wants. If YOU were quoted inaccurately, wouldn't you want to opportunity to correct that?

Why should anyone trust a group of men who spent so much time avoiding AND covering up sexual abuse among their own ranks? There's no trust left anymore, and those in charge created the situation.

I guess you missed the reporting on the FACT that the report of the investigation WILL NOT be shared with the religious communities. They will have no opportunity to question the assumptions made or conclusions arrived at. I have done enough organizational reviews to know that when you don't fully discuss what your conclusions are and how your arrived at them with the people you just reviewed then you are just begging for trouble.

Thanks for the historical conext, Alex. But also, try drinking less coffee. We're among friends.

Obviously you like many NCR readers fail to use logic. Even if the bishops were wrong, how does that make the sisters not wrong?