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A map to the future church
'Jesus struggled his whole life with his religious tradition'
Jul. 16, 2009
Sr. Christine Schenk, executive director of FutureChurch
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PDF versionPart of the "In Search of the Emerging Church" series
She is listed on one Web site as belonging to a "set of people" who "are unfortunately acting like JUDAS -- Just Undermine Doctrine And Spirituality," the designation complete with garish red upper case letters.
OK, so it's not difficult to find off-the-wall extremes in the Catholic ether, and Sr. Christine Schenk, executive director of FutureChurch, is somewhat accustomed to being depicted, in her words, as heir to "the bad girl of the Bible."
All of that, however, may say more about how deeply invested we are these days in caricature rather than truth about such matters. In most cases the reality -- conservative to liberal -- is usually less jagged around the edges and more complex than the opposing side would like to think.
In the case of Schenk, the sound bite composite of what she's about -- ordain married men, ordain women, solve the priest shortage -- is as unfair as it is easy to construct.
The reality is that FutureChurch, an organization based in the Cleveland diocese, was one of the first, if not the first, Catholic church groups to understand the deep implications of the growing priest shortage and to begin to act on information that was available to many but spoken about by almost no one. There is, at this point in history, a certain poetic balance to FutureChurch's existence in the diocese, which is going through the throes of a realignment caused largely by the priest shortage.
FutureChurch was organized here in 1990 when the parish council of the Church of the Resurrection, following an eight-month study, passed a resolution in response to a decision by the U.S. bishops to initiate the ritual permitting Sunday worship in the absence of a priest for parishes that didn't have access to Mass on Sunday.
That was a time when parishes in some dioceses could still imagine doing such a thing and when organizers like Schenk could go to the local bishop (it was Anthony Pilla at the time) "to be clear that we respected church leadership and that we respected his leadership. We knew that the decision-making for these issues rested not with him but in Rome," Schenk said in an extended interview in Cleveland in April. The group told Pilla that "we would always do everything we could to be respectful of his leadership, but that we would be public about our concerns." In return they asked that he "avoid undercutting the legitimate theological presuppositions about married priests, and certainly in 1990, the whole discussion of women's ordination, which had not been opposed yet by Rome."
The group was ahead of its time in understanding the problem and took advantage of the leading edge of research that eventually would define one of the fundamental realities that now shapes any conversation about where the church is headed -- there just aren't and won't be enough priests to continue to organize the Catholic community as it has been.
Anyone searching for what might be emerging in the church of the future would do well to pay a visit to Schenk.
That is not to suggest that Schenk and her organization -- which has grown from 36 people representing 16 faith communities in the Cleveland area to 5,000 members from across the country and internationally -- have an inside track at the Vatican or influence with U.S. bishops. Quite the contrary. As one writer once put it, she is among those Catholic idealists who advocate for change but are under no illusions about what they might change. Groups like FutureChurch are at a point in history where they keep assembling the information, educating and wondering what will come of it all.
Let's organize
What about doing nothing and waiting to see what happens? One gets the sense that Schenk is genetically incapable of such passivity. There's a community organizer in her background, and an activist in the Civil Rights era. "It's not good to sit on your anger," she said at one point in the conversation, "You've got to organize."
And so she has.
One of the first things that FutureChurch did was exploit the data that had been generated by sociologists Richard Schoenherr and Lawrence A. Young for their groundbreaking 1993 book, Full Pews and Empty Altars: Demographics of the Priest Shortage in the United States. Schoenherr had been working on the issue for years and the project that resulted in the book was originally sponsored by the then United States Catholic Conference (now the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops) with a grant from the Lilly Endowment. However, as the picture emerged of a church that would increasingly suffer a shortage of priests, some high profile bishops began to disparage the work and ultimately the conference pulled its support.
The work continued under different auspices. Schoenherr's and Young's gloomy predictions may have proven an inconvenient truth for the hierarchy, but it was solid social science that has held up in the years since as the numbers of ordained clergy continued to fall off.
If the bishops didn't like the data, they couldn't refute it. "We were able to use that data diocese by diocese when we went out with our work to let Catholic people know what was going to happen. Over about three years, I probable spoke at about 60 or 70 dioceses," said Schenk. "I lost track after a while."
The organizer had a strategy. She coordinated often with chapters of Call to Action and other local reform groups who would notify the religion writer at the local paper. "We would go in with the statistics from Schoenherr-Young. The news media would go to the diocese and say, 'Is this true?' The diocese would say, 'Yes, it's true,' and then the whole story would come out. Very often it was the first public acknowledgment that the diocese made that yes, the priest shortage was real and it was happening."
All of that occurred between 1995 and 2000.
The group had also developed a program called The Future Priestly Ministry that "laid out all the other ways of meeting the sacramental needs of Catholics besides a male, celibate priesthood," Schenk said. "It had information about a married priesthood and the history of celibacy. It also had materials about women's roles in the church, going back to Jesus and the women [of the New Testament] and the whole history of the suppression of women's leadership in the church."
But then came Pope John Paul II's 1994 apostolic letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis that declared ordination is reserved to men and slammed the door on any discussion of alternatives to an all male celibate clergy. By extension, most parishes slammed the door on the discussion, so FutureChurch had to adjust. The group developed a second project inspired by a study done by the Leadership Conference of Women Religious that named 15 things that could be done now to advance women's roles in the church.
Rehabilitating Magdala
The new program meant "putting the whole issue of ordination on the side because women's roles in ministry in the church is a much more convoluted effort politically than the issue of a married priesthood. There was a lot of work that needed to be done on that, so that led us into the whole issue of our Mary of Madgala celebrations."
Schenk and FutureChurch probably had the greatest effect of any single group in rehabilitating, at least for a U.S. audience, the woman who had previously been depicted by male preachers as the reformed prostitute of the New Testament. It all went with raising awareness about biblical women. "When we first launched the study in 1997 or 1998, we were actually written up in The Wanderer saying this is terrible and heretical. In fact, when they checked their facts, they found out that in 1969 the Vatican had acknowledged that she wasn't a prostitute."
FutureChurch began with a few Magdala celebrations, 23 to be precise, around 1997, and the following year the number grew to 153, "and ever since then, we've had between 250 and 400 a year."
"What I realized is that this Mary of Magdala, retrieving historical memory, was touching something very deep in the psyche of women because much as we love Jesus and revere our Catholic Christian tradition, most of us never saw ourselves in the Jesus story because it has always been presented to us as Jesus and 12 men," Schenk said.
"Lo and behold, once we get into the biblical scholarship that's not the case at all, because we know the Galilean discipleship had both women and men."
Schenk speaks with certainty of such things now, and she acts with assurance even though Vegas would give slim odds on her accomplishing the kind of radical change she has in mind for the institutional church. It is difficult to imagine a time when she thought of herself as "a little corn-fed hick from Lima, Ohio" convinced that she'd never get the scholarship to Georgetown University that a priest in high school had encouraged her to pursue. But even back then she thought of herself as "high energy and pretty smart." She got the scholarship and eventually the degree. Then a master's in nursing from Boston College. And later, in 1993, a master's in theology.
All of that and experience as a community organizer with the United Farm Workers Union in Philadelphia and a nurse midwife in Cleveland working with low-income pregnant women. She was 25 before she joined a religious order, the Medical Mission Sisters, with whom she stayed for six years. "But I kept getting depressed and I wasn't so sure about the celibacy thing, so I left. About five years later, I found out I was horribly hypothyroid, and that cured the depression once I figured it out."
In the meantime, she had become deeply involved in her parish and fallen in love with a guy, but it didn't work out. She stayed in touch with her Medical Mission friends, and kept dating, but "it seemed like every time I was dating, I was two-timing God. I just couldn't shake it."
She also kept going on retreats and ultimately realized that religious life "was really my life path." So she joined the Sisters of St. Joseph but not before confessing "that my whole life I seem to end up getting into these causes that can be edgy, and if that was a problem, we had better talk about it." Apparently they were then and continue to be just fine with "edgy." "They have been terrific from the beginning," she said.
The order supported her work with FutureChurch for the first three years until it was clear that it "could become a real organization." The order's leadership "really believed in what we were trying to do, and it's because of them and their belief in the mission that we are around."
Pursuing a bigger God
As much as the mission may appear to be advocating for ordination of married men and women, it is just as much aimed at preserving Catholic communities. She knows all about the demographic shifts underway and the effects of the clergy shortage. She doesn't believe all parishes should be saved, but she does believe that instead of simply mandating downsizing to better match the number of parishes with the number of priests, dioceses should look into alternatives -- from greater use of lay parish coordinators to encouraging greater economic sharing among rich and poor parishes. And, somewhere down the road, even ordaining people who now are excluded from that level of leadership.
Her motivation at times is personal. She took her master's degree in theology at St. Mary's Seminary and Graduate School of Theology in Cleveland. Her thoughts initially didn't run to ordination. "I was just so glad to have the opportunity, but when I was finishing and my classmates were being ordained and I wasn't, I got it at a whole other level how wrong this was." Her teachers loved to hear her preach and wished they could hear more of her, but there came a time when the pulpit became off limits to her as her male classmates moved on.
"It was at a much deeper level that I recognized what a violation this was of the call of the Spirit in a person. I went through a pretty big grief time, but I have always been blessed with wonderful spiritual directors and I still am."
Since then, she said, she's "come to the realization that my deepest call is more about reform than ministry. I have to say [being prohibited from ordination] was extraordinarily painful because I loved all the theology. I was growing by leaps and bounds inside, and then to see that that was cut off by something as arbitrary as gender. If anything, that fuels my passion for the work I'm doing now."
Her consolation now is the understanding that "Jesus struggled his whole life with his religious tradition. He was about helping it come to a fuller awareness of the breadth and depth of the love of God and stretching their own boundaries. I feel like I'm following a good path there."
She says she regularly checks her motivation. "I ask myself, 'Where is this coming from? Is this coming because you're mad or because it's a passion about being about that big and wide reign of God like Jesus was?" If it's done out of some sense of political correctness, she said, it won't last. "The other thing is far deeper. I console myself that Jesus was rejected by his own tradition and so was Paul. He was thrown out of all the best synagogues in the Mediterranean world, so when I get upset that one diocese or the other won't let me speak on church property, I just remind myself that it's all part of it. … The end result is going to be so worth it."
What is the end?
"The end result is that we can come to a bigger knowledge of how wide the love of God is."
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Tom Roberts, NCR editor at large, is traveling the country reporting on parish life. He is on the first of several trips he plans to take, this time moving through Ohio, eastward into New Jersey and on to the nation’s capital. His e-mail address is troberts@ncronline.org. Read the full series here: In Search of the Emerging Church.
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The Roman Catholic church is
The Roman Catholic church is very blessed to have Sr Christine Schenk. The Vatican should listen to her suggestions and her very fine research. Jesus shows us to use all the talents of everyone to help our church, not just males. Jesus had both male and female disciples/apostles and so should both men and women be ordained, and Jesus had married apostles. Jesus did not just choose celibates to preach and teach and be apostles. Sr is right on track with her many great ideas for helping the Roman Catholic church.
I whole heartedly believe
I whole heartedly believe that the American Church is blessed to have a Sister such as Sr Christine Schenk. However, I believe that Sr Christine, like all of us needs to ask the question "Is my Conscience properly formed?". Even the greatest scholars among us in the past lived through controversies, I think of Origen and Tertullian who to this day contributed greatly, however inexplicably deviated from the Faith and to this day are not canonized Saints of the Church. Bottom line is that it is impossible to be correct all of the time; that Faith in Christ Jesus-God come in the flesh and in His Church is pure Gift. No one "earns Salvation". We are all poor sinners...
Remember the Feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary on Saturday! Alleluia1 Alleluia! Alleluia!
"the reality -- conservative
"the reality -- conservative to liberal -- is usually less jagged around the edges and more complex than the opposing side would like to think."
This isn't about conservative to liberal though, those are political terms, much of what this person advocates is outside the boundaries of the Church. Perhaps we should look at those dioceses which are ordaining plenty of Priests(i.e. Lincoln) and duplicate what they are doing successfully. Instead this woman has her ideology, perceives a crisis in the Church and wants to exploit it to advance her agenda.
The statistics that Sr. Shenk
The statistics that Sr. Shenk uses are not lies, they are fact. The priest shortage has passed crisis stage. She is advancing the agenda of any Catholic who desires access to Catholic sacraments. There are thousands of parishes world wide who have no consistent access to the Sacraments because of the declining numbers and aging of the existing priesthood.
Perhaps you are still able to attend Mass at your convenience as you live some place where Mass is still readily available. Imagine living in rural dioceses like North Dakota, Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho. Circuit priests, who have three or four parishes, are literally driving themselves into the ground, and this has been going on for decades.
In Ireland the Church is dieing and not just from abuse crisis after abuse crisis, but because the demographics of the priesthood mandate it's death.
For every Lincoln, Nebraska, there are hundreds of dioceses which are keeping up with the number of priests who are dieing or retireing, much less the numbers they really need for effective parishes. Wishful thinking about Lincoln is not going to change any of this. There are now thousands of laity qualified to lead parishes who happen to be married or women and some 50,000 of them are already ordained married priests.
What is Catholicism really about, the supposed truth of man made doctrines, or the real grace and truth of the Sacraments instituted by Jesus?
When adherence to doctrines compromises delivery of the the truths, things are truly backwards.
I didn't say her statistics
I didn't say her statistics are a lie, but any proposed solution which involves "women priests" is impossible.
With God all things are
With God all things are possible.
with God ..... and a church
with God ..... and a church leadership finally willing to face facts.
Nothing is impossible with
Nothing is impossible with God.
so, just to cut through the
so, just to cut through the puff piece verbage here:
"FutureChurch" is still pushing for the ordination of women, correct? in spite of the teaching authority of the church declaring that it is impossible. they still doing this, right? i notice the article here very gingerly tries to avoid coming directly out and saying it.
short answer: yes, they do. they continue to defy the teaching of the church in this matter.
"so, just to cut through the
"so, just to cut through the puff piece verbage here:" I'll do the same. The church said the sun revolved around the earth and they were wrong. Sometimes we have to be at odds with the church no matter what they say as there are times when they are dead wrong!
It is truly amazing to read
It is truly amazing to read about the ministry of Sr. Christine Schenk as she works to bring to "birth new realities" within the Catholic Church. With my imagination, I see married men and women presiding at the Eucharist and engaging in the pastoral care of the People of God.
I have come to the awareness that the teaching authority of the church refuses to ordain married men and women because for the hierarchy (men in leadership)it is impossible. Therefore, these men are stuck (paralyzed) in their own mindset!!! I pray for the power of the Holy Spirit to heal their paralysis and enable the male leaders to recognize the ministry of married men and women as priests. It is only with acting on the possibility of ordaining married men and women that it will happen!!!
No one denies that ordaining
No one denies that ordaining married men is possible, I wish you people would realize that the issues of ordaining married men and ordaining women are completely different in this regard.
really? I hadn't heard that
really? I hadn't heard that ordination of married men was so near. If this is so and women priests are still impossible it is merely further evidence that the ban on a female priesthood comes from male fear of letting women in. Business dealt with it, the military dealt with it, the government dealt with it, I'm sure Catholic priests could adapt to having women in the seminaries.
People who claim that somehow God truly does not trust women to lead has spent too much time reading Vatican pronouncements and Catholic writings and not enough time reading whats in the bible and talking to actual women. I think its pretty obvious that if you want a community leader, who's empathizes with the needs of their flock, and guides them to a fuller understanding of God's lover for them and their responsibility to love one another, then you'd probably do a lot better having a woman in that role than a man, in general.
Bb
Bravo Sr. Schenk! It's
Bravo Sr. Schenk!
It's obvious that the Church respects and follows tradition, but which tradition? If we can show that there were indeed women priests and bishops in North Africa up until the 11th century then those arguments against women clergy, ie Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, especially when based on tradition, can be shown to be false and eventually vaporize when examined by intelligent people. Furthermore, if I am correct, aren't there mosaics in one of the basilicas in Rome depicting women priests and bishops? Maybe that's why the pope doesn't wear his eyeglasses when saying Mass there!
Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, is
Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, is more then "an argument against women clergy" it is intended to be the last word on the matter of female ordination and an infallible teaching of the church. It's not as if anything Sr. Schenk says is of equal weight. This matter has been closed.
It's not an infallible
It's not an infallible teaching.
Lets look at the reply that
Lets look at the reply that Pope John Paul II approved and ordered to be published when some questioned whether the teaching that priestly ordination is reserved to men is to be held as infallible:
This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfrespo.htm
If he ment it to be
If he ment it to be infallible then he needed to go through the recognized process to declare something infallible. J2P2 was very intelligent, he knew the process. Of course he was a real dumb %&* in some things.
In its better wisdom, the
In its better wisdom, the Church set up a very specific formula for declaring something as infallible teaching. That is precisely to dissuade the abuse of it by a leader who finds that he cannot otherwise get the opposition to shut up.
Pope John Paul II did not apply the tradition, and therefore no matter how much he and others might "say" his teaching on ordination of women is infallible, the reality is that it is not.
BUT, let's say that he had, and that it was... there is another piece missing here, a piece also set in place by a wiser magisterium than we seem to have today... the acceptance of the faithful... the sensus fidelium.
85% of Catholics world wide approve of married priests (which was also taken off the table for discussion by the current magisterium), and almost 65% are open to ordination of women. I'd say that means that 2 of 2 requirements for declaring the issue "infallible" have not been met.
The doctrine of infallibility
The doctrine of infallibility is itself in error. It's also gravely arrogant. Pope John 23 himself said he would never invoke it.
Nonsense!!! The Church is
Nonsense!!! The Church is protected by God from teaching error as dogma.
Nonsense. God has always let
Nonsense. God has always let man (and men) get caught up in his (their) own folly.
Do you claim to be Catholic?
Do you claim to be Catholic?
Yet another point belonging
Yet another point belonging to the deposit of faith that is not up for debate.
The early Christian church
The early Christian church did not believe in Apostolic Succession. And for the first six centuries, the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) was elected by popular (read the people's) acclaim. It was only later---with the Dark Ages, that the election of popes was moved out of the people's hands.
The "deposit of faith" was acquired over centuries (read up on what occured at ecumenical councils--there were 21 of them). Canon Law was not written on stone and presented to St. Peter by Jesus. That law is completely man-made.
According to Vatican Council II----every baptized Catholic is equal to every other baptized Catholic. Nobody is greater than another. But Canon Law, gives precedence of the clerical state over the laity. However, the purpose of Canon Law is for the people. If the law is FOR the people, than it should be OF the people as well.
If the laity have no say in a church that states, in theory, that all are equal--why should they stay? Canon Law, man-made law, places all the authority, and direction in the hands of the clergy, and hierarchy.
It is only when the hierarchy needs money for their projects, that they appeal to the laity. Hmmm.
I know you all mean well. I
I know you all mean well. I understand the pain that many of you feel. Over my time I have always demonized progressive Catholics such as yourselves feeling you were out to destroy the Church. But as I have read this I understand that many of you are probably not bad people and really are concerned for the Church.
BUT (yes there is a big but)...is this the way?
Friends if we are rejecting the doctrines and traditions of the Catholic Church then how are we Catholic? Writing from a traditional Catholic perspective I believe the Church must do several things:
1) Restore Catholic Identity- I believe our pope understands this. A divided house cannot stand. We cannot have people who reject elements of the Catholic faith running Catholic seminaries, schools and parishes. A Catholic identity, what some derogatively call the "pre-vatican II ghetto mentality" is utterly neccessary! Catholics must stand strong and together.
2) Returning sacred traditions. Yes, I am speaking of those "horrid pre-vatican II rituals." I am not saying abolish the Ordinary Form of the mass. But, as Pope Benedict intends, to have the EF and OF forms of the mass complement each other. Could not both help each other? Many of the traditional Catholic orders are having an explosion in the number of vocations they have! Surely we can agree this is a good thing?
3) A sense of the sacred is neccessary. We absolutely CANNOT have the attitude of "modernizing the Church" or "updating what is outdated!" Nor the whole "are you a conservative or liberal Catholic?" I believe it was Cardinal Newman who stated that we should either accept or reject the faith in it's entirety otherwise we are merely worshipping ourselves. Either we are Catholics or we are not. Either the mass is about God or it is merely a community gathering. Either the Catholic Church is the path by which humanity can be saved or it is not.
Yet most of all I think we need to be humble! Please, to everyone posting, we need to pray to God for guidance. I disagree with virtually everything this magazine says. But, above all, please let's be prayerful. I know many of you are angry towards the hierarchy. But recently I have had some deep thought. And I have realized that anger does not work in our faith. As a young Catholic traditionalist I have been resentful of the way the Traditional Latin mass has been treated. But I am realizing that the best way to serve the Church is to try and become more devout and more knowledgeable in my faith. I believe Pope Benedict said "the Church does not need any reformers. It needs saints." Perhaps we are looking in the wrong direction?
When I read that the writer
When I read that the writer believes we can not "update what is outdated", it makes me wonder when did this rule start to apply to the Catholic Church? Certainly our liturgy today in no way resembles the 1st century church, nor the 5th century church, nor the 12th century church. As we know there was a time before there were priests or before their was a rule priests could not marry. If inheritance rights did not become an issue in the Middle Ages, I imagine our priesthood would look much different, ie., most straigt priests would be married today and most gay priests would be pressing for same sex marriage. I believe Jesus must chuckle at all this and wonder why we let all this stuff overshadow his message to love one another.
I don't think Jesus is happy
I don't think Jesus is happy or chuckling. all of tis is the results of the original sin, the big lie of the Devil, the father of all lies. These are deversions that keep us from our prayers and from our honor and glory to God her on earth. When we do these things, we are cruxfing Jesus again, crowning Him with thorns again, I'm not kidding or a nut, this is the truth; p;ease donn't listen to the lies of the devil!!
Dear "A Sinner": Your post
Dear "A Sinner": Your post oozes good faith but in its periferals it is an obituary. "Restore Catholic identity" you propose. Benedict preaches this too, so you are in good company. The problem is that we (followers of Jesus) will be known for how we love one another not how many medals, novenas, masses, priests, buildings, collars, we amass. You missed your very own message: be kind, love, patient. Sure we will have some difficulty distinguishing the "Catholics" from the equally good, kind, patient, loving Protestants, Jews, Moslems etc., but that would be a good thing. No?
"Return to sacred traditions"? Respect them, understand them, but keep them in the museums. Keep them and their essential meanings before us but return? Not until they return in spiral and invited not in circle or imposition.
"Sense of the sacred". I might define your phrase differently from you: "sense" - human capacity to ability to percieve through the body; "sacred" - might be that to which we ascribe value or that which "whelms" or "overwhelms" the senses/perception, that which evokes awe. You seem to mean abject obeissance to authority. No? The church, we catholics, have a long way to go to rediscover, understand and begin to merit use of that profound relational concept "sense of the sacred".
i'm sorry but when will these
i'm sorry but when will these folks just go away?
Well, it seems the average
Well, it seems the average age of these "progressives" is quite old, and so many of their young have been birth-controlled and aborted away that its hard for them to get younger. Also, few young Catholics want to be the bad Catholics these older folks enjoy being, they tend to either want to be good Catholics, or non-Catholic.
What are you afraid of?
What are you afraid of?
When Sr. Christine says,
When Sr. Christine says, "there just aren't and won't be enough priests to continue to organize the Catholic community as it has been", it sounds like my family members who says, "he is an Athiest, or they will never Baptize their children...". It sounds like a lack of faith. If you pray and have faith the circumstances will change. If more young men are encouraged to say, "yes", and if more people pray, we will have enough priests without having "priestesses".
Well, as usual, NCR
Well, as usual, NCR introduces us to yet another progressive Catholic who seems to be working for the good of the Church, but, in reality, is working contrary to the good, though I doubt that she is doing so intentionally. The so-called priest shortage is a self-made crisis. Following Vatican II and the attempts by many, such as Sr. Schenk, to marginalize the ordained ministry and to exalt the ministry of the laity (completely devoid of the authentic role of the laity promulgated by the Council), many priests left the priesthood and many young men who, prior to the Council would have been encouraged to answer the call to the priesthood by priests, sisters, and laity alike, were now less likely to both hear and answer the Lord's call. Why should they? The excellent example of priesthood that they had been given was now missing, priests had been reduced to either sacramental machines or glorified social workers.
Even the former role of altar boy had become "altar server" as girls were permitted to serve the Mass. In my experience in parishes throughout the midwest, and in speaking with priest friends from all over the nation, it has been extremely difficult to recruit and retain boys as servers; since the advent of "girl servers", boys don't want to do it. As a result, what was once a proven and fertile ground for the growth of vocations, being an altar boy, has become an empty field. Thanks be to God, many priests have realized this and are reverting to the use of altar boys, if not completely doing away with "girl servers", at least giving the boys special roles that only they can fulfill, and allowing them to wear cassocks and surplices, and girls, albs only. Slowly, but surely, the number of young men serving at Mass is increasing, and with that increase, will inevitably come an increase in vocations.
Many dioceses in the US are seeing an upsurge of vocations, as bishops make attracting and recruiting young men to the priesthood more of a priority. The new Archbishop of St. Louis, for example, has made recruiting vocations his primary responsibility in his other dioceses, even going so far as to act as his own vocation director. He is responsible for single-handedly turned the Diocese of Saginaw into one of the most vocation-rich dioceses in the country, after the previous bishop, Kenneth Untener, did everything in his power to discourage priestly vocations. In Archbishop Carlson's first year as bishop of Saginaw, the number of seminarians quadrupled from four to fifteen. In other dioceses, such as Sioux City, Lincoln, Tyler, Savannah, Peoria, Denver and Arlington, vocations are quite high. Under the leadership of then-Bishop Myers in Peoria, for example, the diocese saw a "re-priesting" of its parishes. In dioceses where the bishop is orthodox and takes an active role in recruiting and retaining his seminarians, or has an outstanding priest in the office of vocation director, the diocese has seen an influx of seminarians.
Of course, the Church is not out of the woods, and the numbers of seminarians can change quite quickly. The Church needs to continue its active recruitment of young men (and older men, as well!) to answer the call God is giving them. We need to continue to pray for vocations and to be always ready to encourage a young man that we may know to consider the priesthood.
The one thing that the Church does NOT need, though, is more of the same nonsense from people like Sr. Schenk and her "FutureChurch" colleagues, telling us that the only answer is to abandon the Church's teachings (ordination of men only) and disciplines (celibate priests) and to encourage more laity and sisters to take over the running of our parishes. That is all that we have heard since Vatican II and is has patently not produced a stronger Church, nor has it produced a Church that is vibrantly challenging the evils of the world. Rather, it has produced a weaker Church, a Church with fewer of her priests to carry on Christ's salvific work and a Church that is divided into ideological camps debating issues of the very nature of the Church herself. Some wit once defined insanity as "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results each time". If that is so, then FutureChurch clearly falls into the category of insane.
Clint: Sr. Schenk and Future
Clint: Sr. Schenk and Future Church are working for the GOOD OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! I find your last paragraph actually pointing to the reality of what is wrong about the present day condition of the Catholic Church.
I would change the wording of the last paragraph as follows: The Church's teachings (ordination of men only) and disciplines (celibate priests)..... have patently not produced a stronger Church, nor has it produced a Church that is vibrantly challenging the evils of the world. By "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results each time," the institutional church with its ongoing male celibate leadership continues to experience decline with bishops closing churches because of the lack of leadership from both married men and women (i.e. ordination).
The changes recommended by Future Church have not been implemented - thus, the status quo within the Catholic Church has been maintained. The institutional church creates on a daily basis its identity crisis with decreased vocations, closing of churches and limited availability of the sacraments.
And as usual, Clint Green, is
And as usual, Clint Green, is urging us to return to the "thrilling days of yesteryear"---only even the Lone Ranger can't solve this problem. Maybe the problem is that Clint and many of his ilk think that by going back to the 'good old days,' that the problems of today will be solved.
Well they won't---because the situations of today and the people of today aren't the same. We no longer have families with 5-8 children in them. We no longer have Catholic families with both parents Catholic (and presumably educated in Catholic schools or catechetical centers). We no longer have parents who are encouraging their sons to be priests. And we still have in our recent history (and it isn't going away any time too soon), the memory of the sexual abuse scandals---where many former altar boys were abused by priests. Parents are very wary of having their children (girls, as well as boys) being around priests, unsupervised.
And reverting to a 'males only' at the altar will not cut it, either, Clint. After all, it is still the women in the Church that keep it moving---not the men. Even, back in the 1950's---with all males at the altar---the women worshippers outnumbered the males by 3 to 1. And Clint, you weren't prepared for the sacraments by priests. It was either the Sisters or lay women who got you ready, as a child, for them. But the women of the Church---have also changed and are not willing anymore to be merely consigned to the "pay, pray and obey" status that the Church had and is still trying to inforce upon them. That was not the way it was in the early Christian churches---and those who have received higher education in their religious faith, understand that---and no amount of patriarchial ballyhooing is going to erradicate that knowledge.
Sister Christine Schenk, and others who write editorials here, have a much broader vista than you and your priest friends do, who wish to return to the 'good 'old days'. Here are TODAY'S issues which require today's responses.
According to Vatican statistics, as quoted in "The Catholic Leader" (28 June 2009, p 9) there were 408,024 priests in the world at the end of 2007. The total number of priests has been increasing slightly in recent years, but has not kept pace with the increase in the total number of Catholics. The number of Catholics per priest was 1830 in 1977, and had jumped to 2810 in 2007. And many of those priests are elderly or infirm. Even the 95 year olds are counted in the number. In ordinary circumstances, how can one priest provide Eucharist every Sunday for 2810 people?
Please remember, when we speak of "Catholics" we are speaking of CATHOLICS of all rites (not just the Roman rite). The Catholics of other rites are not St. Peter's step-children, either. Your comment about 'orthodox bishops' is amusing. The only people who have the right to call themselves "Orthodox" are the Christians who separated from the Western Church in 1055 A.D.---nobody else.
The bishops from the dioceses that you listed are not 'orthodox'---they are reactionary! And while they think that they are making ground in recruiting young men to be priests, they are driving away the laity that held positions in the Church as Pastoral Associates---and who worked to supported its ministry to the People of God. I have received letters from a good number of folks who belong to NALM---National Association of Lay Ministers (under the auspices of the USCCB). Many are from the dioceses that you mentioned. And they are seeing their positions as lay ministers (a legitimate 'calling' which is supported bythe documents of Vatican II, the Codes of Canon Law, and by pastorals by the American Bishops, most recently "Co-Workers in the Vineyard" of 2005), being slowly snuffed out---by these very bishops. As one gentleman wrote, "The bishops seem to be speaking out of both sides of their mouths." On one hand, the bishops write about how much they need the laity and consider them co-workers---and on the other hand, the bishops are surpressing accrediation as pastoral associates, and also eliminating positions, ability to meet or attend conferences---also supported by the USCCB.
A creative plan must be devised which will take into account the neeeds of today's Catholics. It must include the laity---men and women (not just little altar boys), and it is going to need to include a vision of the fact that the Eucharist, not the priesthood, is the center and summit of who we are as Catholics (all rites). Unless the world's bishops, who seem to be at a loss for coming up with anything really creative, can do better in solving this situation, I would suggest that you, Clint and your cronnies, abstain from critizing Sr. Christine (and the other feature writers on NCR). We aren't living in the days of the 1950's anymore. The world began its real change in the mid-1960's and it isn't going back and it isn't going to stop growing and changing.
Mr Green refers to the
Mr Green refers to the pre-vaticanII rituals and liturgies as something that should not be disgarded out of hand. The Holy Spirit has worked in the Catholic Church since it's inception. The Holy Spirit still works in the established traditions of the church, weather pre or post vaticanII traditions. Catholics who profess their modernism tend to want to throw out many of the traditions of the church that have served the faithful well for centuries. There is great value in the traditions of the church and the magisterium has recognized this good by embracing them as teachings of the church. I trust the church heirarchy to guide the church in the way of the Holy Spirit. They have the knowledge and history to best guide the church.
Many modernists believe they are theologians yet fall woefully short because they are agenda driven, not Christ driven. There is no discerning of the spirit in much of what they say, only an attempt to get their misguided opinion in the mainstream thinking.
If you want to drift to protestant beliefs and liturgies, drift over to protestant sects, leave my Catholic Church alone.
"your" Catholic church????
"your" Catholic church????
If the Holy Spirit doesn't
If the Holy Spirit doesn't work in the whole world (and not just your catholic church), she ain't much of a Holy Spirit, is she?
The ideas proposed by
The ideas proposed by "FutureChurch" have been implemented, by and large, in the Episcopal Church. So, faithfulness to one teaching (the literal meaning of orthodoxy) aside, how have they fared?
Their numbers are declining, congregations and whole diocese who want to keep some standard of common Christian belief are leaving. Ecumenical efforts have been set back generations.
Meanwhile the number of ordained ministers in the Catholic Church in America holds more or less steady (number of priests and deacons is about 1000 less than at the time of the council, and rising). The number of Catholics at Mass, however, has declined by some 6.25 million. (~70% of 45.6million is greater than 40% of 64.1). (All stats from CARA.)
---
Side note on "Co-Workers": this document is severely flawed in its understanding of the role of collabertaion by the laity in the ministry of the priesthood.
Dear Heretoday, Then would
Dear Heretoday,
Then would you kindly write to the USCCB and inform them that in your brilliant opinion (as a postulant) that their pastoral "Co-Workers in the Vineyard" is "severely flawed". I'm sure that the bishops will be delighted to know this. Also, perhaps in addition to your other studies, you can point out to them their errors.
LittleBear, We're also not
LittleBear,
We're also not living in the '60's anymore....you know, the days of burlap altar cloths and felt church banners.
Your brand of Catholicism is wholly unattractive to young and old alike unless, of course, they underwent the same touchy-feely indoctrination you did.
Clint Green's analysis of the current situation is stellar.
About the only thing that
About the only thing that makes sense in Clint Green's post is that ordaining women and married priests will not revive the church or solve the priest shortage problem. If one looks at protestant denominations which allow married and female clergy, the same situation prevails in the big picture.
If Green thinks that the exclusion of girls from alter serving or a hierarchy of uniform (allowing boys to wear "cassocks and surplices") and the return to doglike obeisance is the answer he warrants the appelation he ascribes to Future Church.
For a start, we Christians must meet in the field of peace and reconciliation and fundamemtally reflect on the calling of Christ and on the Christ of the calling. Let He who is in our midst when we gather in His name lead us to a contemporary acknowledgment of God and the need to gather together in church. Time's gittin' on bros and sisters.
Oh, I see, your peace,
Oh, I see, your peace, reconciliation and reflection, includes dehumanizing people and referring to them as doglike. How inclusive of you.
Dear, dear Esther: The post
Dear, dear Esther: The post read "doglike". I do not "dehumanize" anybody; they "dehumanize" themselves by their behavior. To be more precise, lest you raise from your comfortable pew/pedastel, they behave as if they were operant conditioned rodents (a la Skinner) or more popularly noted "domesticated canines". By the way, I see that as worse than dehumanized.
The same name calling and
The same name calling and arguments Protestants have been using toward Catholics for hundreds of years.
The views you express toward these people are wrong, shallow, mean spirited and counter productive.
What? "Let He who is in our
What? "Let He who is in our midst when we gather in His name lead us to a contemporary acknowledgment of God and the need to gather together in church" -- what does that mean? What is a "contemporary acknowledgment of God"? Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, says the Scripture. He does not change just because we decide that we want Him to. His Church does not change just because we want it to. What Christ calls us to is greater and greater fidelity to Him and to His Church. He calls us to embrace ever more fully HIs teachings and His commands.
The people you call "doglike" are those who have embraced that call. They are the ones who, in humility, acknowledge that God created all, and holds all in the palm of His hand. They understand that His wisdom is far greater than ours, and therefore they obey His commands (or try to, it is, after all, a daily journey of faith) and His teaching. They know that the Church possesses the fullness of revealed truth and they embrace that truth, even when they may not fully understand or agree with a particular teaching or doctrine. They are the people who know that, if their salvation depended solely on them and their knowledge, they would be great trouble. But, thanks be to God, salvation depends upon faith in God and in His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.
Faith means we accept what we do not truly understand. Indeed, if we understood everything, there would be no need for faith. There is nothing "doglike" in that. Dogs obey through training out of reward or fear. Human beings obey the Church and the Lord out of love and through an intellectual choice, a bending of the will to say with Saint Paul, "I live now, not I, but Christ who lives in me".
Finally, the solution to the shortage of priests is to encourage more men to answer God's call. God calls the same number of men He always has, the problem is that there is so much noise that it is often difficult to hear that call. And, if a man hears that call, often he looks at the priests he knows, men who are little more than sacramental machines, men who seem surrounded by folks who criticize his every move, who seem to be trying to supplant the priest in every circumstance. Priestly identity, which used to be obvious when Father was seen in cassock and/or clerics in every public situation, is now minimized. Boys who thought of serving Mass as an honor and privilege, now find that anyone can serve Mass. Most priests, if asked when they first thought of a religious vocation, will answer that it was in serving Mass, in getting to know the priest and being so close to the Altar during the most important moments of the Mass, that they first got the inkling that priesthood might be for them.
It is sad that all you took away from my comments is that boys should wear cassock and surplice and that girls should not serve Mass. It is sad that you are incapable of understanding and apprehending the deeper realities that are present. It is sad that you condemn all those who follow the Lord's commands and the teachings of His Church as "doglike". Sad, but not entirely surprising.
Dear Clint Green: You vastly
Dear Clint Green: You vastly underestimate even my limited capacity. I take from your comments their substance, stripped of the gloss. I do not condemn "...all those who follow the Lord's commands....", I condemn noone. I do however, from a long standing with church folk, recognize the verbal distinction between the sanctimonious and the religiously spiritual. "Priestly identity, which used to be obvious when father was seen in a cassock and/or in clerics...". Come off it. Human charity, product of God's good creation, elevated and infused by Christ is the Christ identity I seek and too often see replaced by the worldly substitute of "cassock" and "clerics". I respect priests for as and when they display Christ. I disdain any attempt to elicit respect for "collar" or any trappings, accidentals. Your response confirms my opinion rather than your own profession. Read your words Mr.Green, reflect on their imperious clericalism which died, not with Vatican II but with the 1950's at the latest.
While do you read NCR? It
While do you read NCR? It just seems to upset you. Read the National Catholic Register. After all, it is your newspaper.
Tom Robert's articles are
Tom Robert's articles are really wonderful. I grew up in the north, spent quite a bit of time in the west and now on the gulf coast love to read what these regions are doing, especially with the US going through so much termoil and change.
Love of God, and even our church, shines through. "Even Our church". Some things make us so unhappy, the hierarchy in so many ways needs to wake up, but we still love our church.
The Tradition of Jesus was to
The Tradition of Jesus was to have both female and male apostles. There are 7 women apostles and 12 male apostles named in the NT.
The Tradition of Jesus was to have women doing what priests do in the Early church. Take a look at the bible. Jesus includes the women, invites the women, chooses women to do what the men do in the church.
Talk tradition from the source, the bible. Have women ordained, as that is the real tradition. This nun is correct in the ideas she suggests to help the church today. As it was, so should it be, women ordained.
More on the tradition of
More on the tradition of women priests and bishops:
A tombstone found in Centuripe, Sicily, and dates from 350-450 based on the script, which reads simply “Here lies Kale the presbyter who lived 50 years irreproachably she ended life on the 14th of September.” The inscription ends with a chi-rho.
The tombstone of Leta was found in Tropea, Italy, and is dated by scholars to 320-470. Her inscription reads: “Of blessed memory Leta presbitera who lived years 40, months 8, days 9 whose husband prepared her burial she departed in peace the day before the Ides of May.”
Vitalia is known from a fresco in the Catacomb of San Gennaro in Naples. The fresco shows Vitalia dressed in a red chasuble and standing at an altar with her hands raised above two cups and a flat loaf of bread. Portrayed above her are books of the gospels with the names Joannes, Marcus, Matteus and (illegibly) Luke. The fresco is dated between 350-500.
Also, The Catacombs of Priscilla in Rome house a number of underground chambers in which women are depicted celebrating Eucharist, in the robes of a deacon, and dressed in priestly vestments being ordained by a bishop. The early church also flourished in North Africa, and Hippo (present day Annaba, Algeria) was the seat of St Augustine. On the floor of the cathedral is a mosaic with a Latin inscription covering the tomb of Julia, which reads (in English) “Julia Runa priest (feminine) passed away in peace she lived 50 years.
So much for the tradition of an all male clergy. We need to keep stating the facts, eventually it will sink in.
If there were priestesses in
If there were priestesses in the Catholic Church the early Church Fathers would have written about them. The "presyters" you refer to were most likely knostic or Arian followers. You cannot prove otherwise. The documents and ancient writings are on the side of the male priesthood. Art can be deceptive. Produce something in writing.
If you know biblical history,
If you know biblical history, which is based on patristic society, you know that men were the only ones "worthy" of education; they learned to read and write, etc. while women managed the home AND religious practice. It is the foundation of why Jewish heritage rests on the blood of the mother, NOT the father.
The Bible is indeed the divinely inspired Word of God, but it is not magic. Nowhere does divine inspiration hold that there may not be human error (accidental, not on the order of sin) in the recording of the Bible. Surely you cannot imagine that the writers took dictation from God? Biblical scholarship shows that the Books of the Bible were written over decades and centuries, in some cases, and was the eventual writing down of oral tradition, in order to protect it from dying, the way oral tradition is dying today. If you've ever played the game of telephone, you know what can happen to oral tradition. Perhaps you've told a story - have you successfully retold it time after time without ever embellishing the facts?
It is Jesus who is both God and man, and is like us in all ways except for sin. Accidents in retelling an writing are not sin, they are a part of our human condition.
One final thought: where were the men when Jesus died? Where were they when he rose again? Look at Matthew 27:32 and 28:1-8; Mark 15:21 and 16:1-7; Luke 23:26-27 and 23:55 - 24:12; John 19:25 and 20:1-2. Why do the Scriptures for the most part, record nothing about the 12 men who followed Jesus (except Peter's denial) when Jesus dies and is buried, instead claiming that a stranger was appointed to help Jesus carry the cross, and then that secret disciples asked to bury Jesus? Why do the Scriptures, for the most part, record that it was the women who found that Jesus had been raised? Where were them men, and what were they doing, while this man they claimed to love, was dying on a cross, and then lay dead in the tomb?
"...documents and ancient
"...documents and ancient writings on the side of the male priesthood...." Yes, if history teaches us anything, it is that it is written by the winners.
Thank you, Sr. Schenck. She
Thank you, Sr. Schenck.
She says she regularly checks her motivation. Those who oppose her should do the same.
Oppose Sr. Schenck? is that
Oppose Sr. Schenck? is that what you call adhering to the teachings of the Catholic Church? What a man centered view of things you have.
I agree entirely with you
I agree entirely with you Christine.You say you regularly check your motivation. "I ask myself, 'Where is this coming from? Is this coming because you're mad or because it's a passion about being about that big and wide reign of God like Jesus was?" If it's done out of some sense of political correctness, she said, it won't last. "The other thing is far deeper. I console myself that Jesus was rejected by his own tradition and so was Paul. He was thrown out of all the best synagogues in the Mediterranean world.." I find myself in the same boat.
Well done also to NCR for the courage to give voice to the prophets.
Neil Chapman NZ
In rural America we have
In rural America we have fewer and fewer priests. Sister Schenk has offered a reasonable solution. Maybe there is another solution---but who knows what will happen to us. We will shortly lose the one priest who comes 40 miles round trip once a week. Some of our members have already left for the local UCC church. Does anyone have a reasonable solution for us out here. Our parish was founded 125 years ago and sadly it will close soon
Dear Northcountry: We rely on
Dear Northcountry: We rely on existing structures not only to meet our needs and wishes but also in so many ways we rely on existing structures to actually define and determine the needs which they then satisfy, usually at a cost, but we are content with the benefits.
One solution, while you have your priest still with you, even if only once a week, would be to meet in community to express, define and come to some understanding of the what and why of your need and its satisfaction. Begin with the belief that "For where two or three meet in my name, I shall be there with them" (Matt.18 v.20). I doubt that "two or three" is a literal limitation. You may find that Christ is and will be among you.
"A house divided cannot
"A house divided cannot stand."
I agree, but a household that fails to deal consructively with conflict is a sick place. For over 40 years, there has been a small but vocal and influential group of Catholics who have fought the renewal called for by Vatican II. JPII and Benedict have ruled with a "my way or the highway" mentality. Authentic adults today will not succumb to this approach.
"The excellent example of priesthood that they had been given {before Vatican II] was now missing."
Except the U.S. bishops in Dallas yielded under pressure to look at clerical sexual abuse of children back to 1950. And God only knows the crap --- sexual, financial, otherwise --- that occurred before then in a church culture that elevated the ordained and subordinated the laity. "Father knows best." Episcopal coverups, intimidation, payoffs, etc.
Boys don't want to serve Mass with girls? Sounds like socially retrograde communities, the kind I've never encountered where I've lived during my government career.
As for certain dioceses seeing an increase in priestly vocations, I'm reminded of the work of the late sociologist Dean Hoge and colleagues who concluded that while the laity --- old AND young --- move in one direction, the priests inspired by JPII move in the opposite direction. "Those who don't learn (or want to learn) the lessons of history..." But life moves on for the rest of us Catholics despite the attempts of gutless and authoritarian hierarchs to turn us into dumb sheep. It was Jesus, after all, who said "I am the good shepherd" --- the operative word here being "I," not Pope, Bishop, Father.
Regarding the supposed inability of the church to ordain women to the priesthood, all we've gotten to date from JPII and Benedict are excuses (and sorry ones at that!), not reasons. The burden is on the proponent of a purportedly infallible teaching to demonstrate it is infallible. To date, neither pope has succeeded in doing so. As long as we have Catholic biblical scholars, theologians, historians, and other specialists who can successfully challenge the nonsense of Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, the ball will continue to remain in the other court. Scholarship = 1, Popes = 0.
JP II and B16 were actually
JP II and B16 were actually present at the Council and have studied the documents over and over. I think they know both what the documents say and what the bishops discussed at the Council. It seems like the small but vocal minority you mention are those who have ACTUALLY READ COUNCIL DOCUMENTS. Every time someone on here mentions that the Pope is trying to "undo the reforms of Vatican II" I ask them to cite exactly what reform and how it is being "undone"--and they NEVER RESPOND!
Dear Anonymous, Where the
Dear Anonymous,
Where the Documents of Vatican Council II are being "undone," is in Canon Law. Canon Law was 'updated' in 1993-4. It is a man-made law---but it restricts much of what was written by Vatican Council II. Canon Law, by the way, is the 'darling' document by most American Bishops. In fact, if a bishop sees a bright younger priest, (who might be a future bishop), the bishop pulls him out of parish work and sends him to Canon Law studies to Catholic Univ. of America. The priest can either go during summers (five summers' worth of work), or the priest is sent to earn a PhD in Canon Law.
The number of priests who study theology, pastoral studies, spirituality is, sadly down for the last 10 years. It is the laity (and religious) who are studying in these areas.
And what is it that is being
And what is it that is being undone? There is no allowance for a female priesthood anywhere in the documents of Vatican II.
Dear Esther, The Vatican II
Dear Esther,
The Vatican II documents do not forbid a female priesthood, either. It is in Canon Law that women are forbidden to be priests (Canon 1378).
Canon law is a human, man-made law arising out of Roman culture and formulized as the Law of the Church in the 13th Century.
Everything about Canon Law, that Americans know, they hate. It is secretive, in that the various Roman dicasteries make up laws as they go along and the Vatican courts make judgments in secret tribunals.
Upfront, forthcoming, and transparent---Canon Law is not.
Again, you've failed to site
Again, you've failed to site a single instance of Canon Law and Vatican II contradicting. You can't possibly think that something being forbidden in one place and not mentioned in another is a contradiction.
Research what the church teaches on this matter, it is entirely logically and historically consistent, and I think you'll find it interesting. Much more interesting then the bitter and hateful ramblings of the power hungry.
I must apologize for
I must apologize for accepting the word of one of the Fathers of the Council, Pope John Paul II, and a theologian of the Council, Pope Benedict XVI for their interpretation of "what the Council intended." Next time I won't rely on those who were actually there and responsible, or on the documents themselves, but only what Richard McBrien, Joan Chittister, Futurechurch, and call to action tell me the Council said.
Those of us here in Cleveland
Those of us here in Cleveland who know Sr. Chris personally, know that she is a credit to humanity and 'salt-of-the-earth' to boot. Her wonderful community of the Srs. of St. Joseph have always been on the side of the poor and marginalized and the fact that they support Chris and Future Chruch, is a blessing to observe.
The 'higher'archy of our church continues to disappoint us in many areas, but the sad fact is that they have known about the pending priest shortage for 25 years or more. The official reason given for not even talking about womens ordination is a simple 'Jesus didn't select women to be his apostles.' And now, viable churches are being closed in Northeast Ohio and beyond because of this lack of vision.
I once belonged to the Serra club [we prayed for vocations to the Roman Catholic priesthood] but years ago when I read that Pope John Paul II stifled discussion on ordination of over half of us, i quit, saying that the Holy Spirit is calling women and married priests - but the Vatican - well, you all know the rest of the story. But do we...?
Tim Musser - Cleveland
Jesus chose women as his
Jesus chose women as his apostles too, and made them highly significant apostles with big tasks to do : preaching as a priest does the Gospel to the gentiles to Samaria : Jesus in John 4 tells the male apostles who return with food that Jesus is too excited and happy to eat, Jesus praises the Apostle Samaritan woman as doing a better job than the men do.
Jesus makes Apostle Mary of Magdala the one who both witnesses his Crucifixion and who teaches then rest about his Resurrection. Without the Resurrection there would be no Christianity.
Junia, lady Apostle, is called by Paul "Foremost, Most Outstanding Among the Apostles.
Other women apostles/disciples are named too. So how can the pope say there are no women apostles? Has the pope never read the bible? Quick, get the pope a New Testament and please give him scripture bible lessons as he does not know the New Testament at all! Yes women were apostles, and very important ones too.
Anonymous states: If there
Anonymous states: If there were priestesses in the Catholic Church the early Church Fathers would have written about them. Produce something in writing. Here is a comment by Pope Gelasius, but I don't expect it to convince any obtuse thinkers like "Anonymous". In 494, Pope Gelasius I (a pope known for his liturgical reforms) sent a letter to four episcopates (dioceses) in the south of Italy when he discovered they had traditions of women priests: "divine affairs have come to such a low state that women are encouraged to officiate at the sacred altars and to take part in all matters imputed to the offices of the male sex." His "low state" doesn't refer to the fact there were women priests but rather the "low state" refers to the few men available for ordination.
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