Pastor says it's time to 'let go,' accept new missal as inevitable

The same criminals who held the safety of your children in such low esteem also hold your intellect and your determination in low esteem. If they think they can fool the world with empty measures since 2002 to protect children from priestly perverts, do you think for a moment they give a damn what you think by insulting your intelligence and your taste by foisting this badly composed, stilted English missal upon Anglophone Catholics? Time to get a life.

I agree that there are more important issues before the Catholic community at this time than changes in the texts for liturgical practice.

I'm not crazy happy about the sexist and non-inclusive language that has been proposed. I think we see the political agenda of the right-wing reactionaries in the curia at work here.

Is it possible that the hierarchy is throwing this grenade into our midst just to divide the people between traditionalists and supporters of Vatican II?

Is it possible the hierarchy hopes to distract their easily distractible "sheep in their flocks" from noticing their abject failure to provide meaningful pastoral leadership, and in fact have repeatedly betrayed the interests of the people for decades?

Is it possible that some hierarch "got to" Fr. Michael Ryan of Seattle and made sure that he got back in line?

You know, the Canadians, who as a people have a special sensitivity to the multiplicity of cultures within their society (not just Franco-Anglo divisions), have told the Vatican that they will implement these proposed changes in the liturgy only after years of consultation and practice among different groups among their people.

In other words, using "church-speak," they told the Vatican to take a hike!

What is it about American bishops that makes them so willing to be led around like cows with a ring through their noses by Vatican curial bureaucrats? Why can't they stand-up for us, as a people and a culture, and just say, "Not So Fast, Eminenza!"

Last night, I attended a talk at my parish by Lizette Larson-Miller who outlined that changes in liturgical texts have been evolving and changing on a regular basis every so many years since the Vatican council, and probably will continue in the years to come. What is the big deal?

I'm sure if the bishops let it slip during their next conversation with CDW (until last night I didn't know there was a Vatican curia for the liturgy!) that their future contributions to Vatican coffers may be reduced and/or delayed in order to implement this new very expensive change in the liturgy, they could at least get a rise out of their patrones in the Vatican.

What did Sarah Palin say? "About time they grow a pair!"

Pro multis (for many) heretical? In the Douai, King James, RSV, NRSV, NAB, revised NAB, etc., the Greek "peri pollon" or "huper pollon" are rendered as "for many." Pro multis is the Latin Vulgate's and Missale Romanum's rendering of the Greek, and thus "for many" in the new translation.

It means, while Christ died that all MIGHT be saved, only "the many" foreknown by God will accept that offer of salvation and actually BE saved. It reminds us to avoid a real heresy, "universalism" (all IN FACT are saved, regardless of how they live). Salvation is wasted on the ungrateful who do not cooperate with Christ's grace, benefitting only "the many" who do.

Matthew 26:28 (NAB) for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14:24 (NAB) And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

Thank you for the link to your well articulated thoughts on the sad state of the Church of Rome today.

Perhaps your pastor is a so-called "JPII priest" described a few years ago by sociologists of religion James Davidson and Dean Hoge in their COMMONWEAL article "Mind the Gap: The Return of the Lay-Clerical Divide"???

It's available free at http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1252/is_20_134/ai_n25436496/

Personally, I intend on say the responses I am familiar with... Perhaps if, as a visible sign of protest to the "new" missal, people would wear black armbands to mass, it might just show how many are disinclined to go along with the new liturgy.

Just a thought.

I totally agree. I read Jamie Manson's article and I thought it was excellent.

Excellent Joanne Marie!!! Thank you for this!!

Joanne Marie, you are awesome! I'm/was a lifelong Catholic, now I'm definitely a Christian! I have taught public school high school for over 30 years; about 18 yrs. ago, one of my students [non-denominational Christian] asked if he could attend a Catholic mass with me on Sunday. Of course, I agreed. Afterwards, I asked him his observations about his first-time experience at a Catholic mass. He said that it was like a bunch of robots responding to another robot! This was an epiphany for me! I was born and raised Catholic and had never [under pain of serious sin] questioned ANYTHING about the Catholic church! Now, a 17 yr. old had taken the scales off of my eyes! From that point on, I stopped saying the 'required' responses and said what was in my heart in response to the priest's rote statements during the Mass.

Thanks to the grace and insight of that student, I began to study other religions and their theological and philosophical views as developed in the 20th and 21st centuries. I studied with professors from all over the world and discovered that Catholicism is NOT what Jesus was teaching and modeling. The good news is that the philosophy of Jesus is still alive and well in other places [not necessarily in so-called Christian churches.]

So, don't be discouraged by the pettiness of liturgical forms and missals, rites and rituals, superstitions and meaningless rote responses of the Catholic church; instead OPEN yourself to the love and grace of Jesus and be free to enter into a personal relationship with him, a relationship that is being constantly blocked by the institutional Catholic church. The Catholic church has now perfectly established itself as the very thing that Jesus came to replace with his message of hope, freedom, and love so that his followers could grow into the people [the People of God] that the Divine created. God bless!

Just to answer this question:

"My question is, why do we need a missal now since we haven't used one in 30 to 40 years?"

We have had a missal the last 30 to 40 years, but the title has been translated differently. You may be thinking of the personal missals that people used to own to try to follow along in the Latin mass.

But "Missal" in "New Roman Missal" just refers to the book containing all the prayers of the mass -- the "order" that we use every week (like the Creed and the Lamb of God) and the "proper" prayers that are specific to each specific Sunday or weekday or feast (like the Opening Prayer and the Prayer after Communion). For the last 30 to 40 years, the priest has been praying these prayers from a book with the translated title "Sacramentary" (the big, usually red book up on the altar with him). But the Latin title is "missalae", and so in line with all the other very Latinate translations, in the new edition it is going to be called "the Roman Missal." By the way, the Spanish version has been called "misal romano" all along ...

Just a little clarity, though I thoroughly sympathize with your frustration ...

OPERATION SHRED.

Darn good idea!!!

(and put the confetti in the collection plate next time)

I, for one, plan to vote with my feet. Presbyter is right, nothing can be done. The Bishops and Priests will use these texts, even if they end up saying mass alone.

Like Camelot, it was only a vision that we enjoyed for a little while.

Good thinking, Jim. I also wonder, is there a time when we finally give in and say it's all right to go along with an injustice? Courage of convictions and the truth only go so far? Paul needs to continue to speak up to Peter when Peter is obviously wrong and especially antipastoral.

"without consulting people or the priests who will for the most part be using it!"

They don't need to be consulted for this decision to be made, period. If there was a reason for the new translation on principle, e.g. faithfulness to the Latin, then speaking to the priests would have only been useful insofar as those making the decision were not convinced that they should be more faithful to the Latin. If they were resolute, however, this doesn't hold.

"Those of us who lived through the Vatican II experience came to hope in MORE consulting, not less"

Why just you, arbitrarily?

"And, a pilot program could have saved some of the millions of $$ spent on new books - I don't understand why a pilot program would be a bad precedent - it does not take away from the universality of the Mass"

It by definition takes away from the universality of the Mass.

Plus, you touch on several different issues of universality here. First, there are different languages, but the universality can be maintained within the Masses celebrated in a particular language.

Second, Vatican II called for the use of vernacular when appropriate, not throughout the entire Mass -- or show me otherwise, because nothing I have read of Vatican II documents suggests the latter. Therefore, the argument regarding the use of other languages falls apart when that's not even something to be defending inherently anyway.

Penny Scott on Mar. 17, 2011.

You stated:

"I have no idea how stilted language and Latinate constructions reinforce strong catechesis. The Church will survive the ludicrous expressions of this mediocre translation, as it has other manifestations of its highly imperfect government style."
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Penny, I have on my desk booklets, brochures from every company that produces catechetical materials for children, youth, young adults, and adults in the country. Each one of them is selling information about how their texts 'catechise' all about the Revised Roman Missal.

They give a brief history as to why, what, how and a pep-talk to all catechists about how they are to be 'part of a broad-based effort in catechisis throughout the English-speaking Roman Catholic Church.' They are 'joining in a process of bishops, priests, liturgists, theologians and other catechists to help priests, people, including even the youngest child, become ready to pray reverently, intelligently and together at Mass.'

What bunk! This Roman Missal was handed to the English bishops and they were told---'Here, this is what you are to use.'

Theologians weren't invited to this process nor were the large pool of liturgists.

Everything is from the Latin-point of view----as though the staid, immovable world of ancient Greece and Rome---really presents a valid point of view.

It should be interesting to see what happens in parishes across America on the first Sunday of Advent.

Jesus was of this world. And he was also God, and not of this world. He also called us to be, in some ways, not of this world as well.

Hence the Mass being the union of Heaven and Earth, not just Heaven.

A.J. Boyd on Mar. 17, 2011.

You stated:

"Anonymous, consider reading the Holy Father's recent address for the 45th World Communications Day.(http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/communications/d...)

Posting anonymously is not communicating with authenticity and integrity - your argument is invalid."
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A.J. Boyd----if you are a layperson---with no 'official' postion in the Church, you can bloody well use your real name. Nothing will happen to you.

But those who work within the Church----could loose job, health benefits, and their good name----for posting their names(the official Church does HAVE A BLACK LIST----and it is not filled with names of those who have sexually abused kids. It is filled with those who have criticized even one little iota of 'pronouncements'). And nothing that "Anonymous" stated is invalid.

For all that the Pope stated in World Communications Day---is null and void.
He states ONE thing verbally or in writing----but the actual PRACTICE of the Church is just the opposite. It is part of the Vatican Double-Speak---that so many of us know.

Please get the horse blinders off of your eyes!