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Editorial: Torture as a wakeup moment
Apr. 27, 2009
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Printer-friendly versionSend to friendPDF version“The thought of Jesus being stripped, beaten, and derided until his final agony on the cross should prompt the Christian to protest against similar treatment of their fellow human beings. Of their own accord, disciples of Christ will reject torture, which nothing can justify, which causes humiliation and suffering to the victim and degrades the tormentor.”
-- Pope John Paul II, before the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva, June 1982
“Whatever is hostile to life itself, such as any kind of homicide, genocide, abortion, euthanasia and voluntary suicide; whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, physical and mental torture and attempts to coerce the spirit; whatever is offensive to human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution and trafficking in women and children; degrading conditions of work which treat laborers as mere instruments of profit, and not as free responsible persons: all these and the like are a disgrace, and so long as they infect human civilization they contaminate those who inflict them more than those who suffer injustice, and they are a negation of the honor due to the Creator.”
-- “Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World,” Second Vatican Council
No longer is there any doubt; no longer can there be any denial. The U.S. government has tortured in our name. It has tortured detainees, in some cases scores, even hundreds, of times. Torture practices were not aberrations done by a few errant jailers. They were approved by top government officials and became an essential ingredient of U.S. policy in the fight against terrorism.
President Barack Obama’s ordered release of four FBI torture-related memos last month confirms an ugly reality. We are no longer the people we once professed to be. And even if we do not lament, much of the rest of the world does. They prize our democratic ideals, and now we must reclaim those ideals. We have arrived at a new moment of clarity. And now we must act.
Fortunately, pressure is growing for full disclosure of the means by which torture entered our working lexicon. In order for our nation to reclaim its core democratic values, founded in Judeo-Christian human dignity, we need to know: Who first ordered and approved torture? What was its nature? Who carried out the practice? How widely and in what forms did it take place? These disclosures will lead to others and will widen a discussion, and, we hope, lead to purging and renewal.
Of course, there are some who argue that a congressional or congressional-appointed investigation into U.S. torture practices will distract us from other pressing national agendas, such as solving the current economic and environmental woes. Their arguments have merit. But in the final analysis we think we are big enough and wise enough to move forward on more than one front. It should become increasingly evident that, as a nation, we will not regain our core moral foundations, now so clearly lost, unless we are confronted with truths we might not otherwise want to hear. Covering the truth, hiding it from the people in whose name our government exists, will only further damage our nation and weaken our posture in the world. On the other hand, disclosing the most sordid mistakes we have made shows a unique strength in our character that, in turn, offers renewed hope to those around the globe who want us to succeed, who respect us for our values and not for our might.
We are, after all, a nation of law. If laws have been broken, if lies have been told to us, then consequences must follow. To do less is to cheapen each one of us, as citizens of this great nation.
There are many lessons to be learned. More that we might not have yet imagined are likely to come forth as this story and its cover-up unravel, as they have been doing in recent weeks with more torture-related disclosures surfacing in the media.
It should be evident by now that in some troubling ways our nation is not unlike many others that rationalize the use of torture. Amnesty International reported last year that 60 years after the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which condemns torture, was adopted by the United Nations, people are still tortured in at least 80 countries. That report singled out the United States as an offending nation.
It should be evident by now that, under pressure, it is easy to lose our moral bearings. The New York Times reported April 21 that in a series of high-level meetings in 2002, Bush administration officials “without a single dissent from cabinet members or lawmakers” approved brutal methods of interrogation. “This extraordinary consensus was possible,” the Times article stated, “largely because no one involved -- not the top two CIA officials who were pushing the program, not the senior aides to President George W. Bush, not the leaders of the Senate and House Intelligence Committees -- investigated the gruesome origins of the techniques they were approving with little debate.”
And what were the origins of these torture practices? Incredibly, they were patterned after the failed practices of communists in the Korean War, methods that had wrung false confessions from captured American soldiers.
Many will assess the wider implications and results of those 2002 government officials’ torture-initiating decisions. For the moment, we are struck by the ease with which a seemingly intelligent group of people, who profess decency and morality, are capable of losing their moral compass. Part of their explanation rests in the fear climate of the time following the attacks on the World Trade Center and the unknown nature of possible pending attacks. Nevertheless, the reported total absence of discussion or analysis of the meaning of what they were setting in motion and the consequences of their decision is mind-numbing.
It should give all of us pause. At a personal level it might lead us to re-examine our own moral blind spots. It is no secret that our church is divided in aspects of its moral analysis of contemporary society. Virtually every Catholic professes to be “pro-life.” Who among us does not applaud the paragraph cited at the top of this editorial taken from the “Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World”? Who among us does not feel he or she echoes the sentiments of Pope John Paul II cited above?
At the same time divisions exist in personal moral assessments regarding the immoral practices within our nation and through the world. Simply put, the division is between those who believe the tragedy of legalized abortion is the foremost moral disgrace we face as a nation and those who believe it must be weighed within the context of many other moral disgraces. These divisions run up and down our church, through bishops, clergy, religious and laypeople. Sometimes these divisions are so deep that one side or the other tends to dismiss the position of the other. Might a renewed moral examination move us to ask ourselves if our position has hardened to a point of moral blindness?
In the end, the teachings of our church, the values that we profess as Catholics, as members of an even wider Christian body of believers, should serve as our primary moral compasses. These are all founded in the Gospel teachings of love, compassion, nonviolence and forgiveness, all core teachings of Jesus.
As our nation enters into what might be called a forced and fortunate moral reassessment, can we make this a personal moral reassessment as well? Or will expedience and our own personal moral blindness fashion another way? God is patient and forgiving, and God is not finished with us yet.
This article is based upon a
This article is based upon a simplistic understanding of Catholic "Just War" Theory discussion and the quotes are wildly out of context. I certainly am not in favor of torture pre se, however consideration of the "suffocating child"or "ticking time bomb" theories needs further discussion by the likes of persons more knowledgeable than me. Christ is Risen! Alleluia! Alleluia!
It's got nothing to do with
It's got nothing to do with the Church and it's theories on war - just or unjust. It's about what kind of society - what kind of a people - we as Americans want to be. The older among us grew up in a world where torture would be unthinkable - Americans don't do that kind of thing. The problem starts when our moral compass ceases to be our American tradition and we start looking to the likes of Dick Cheney and Jack Bauer (talk about simplistic)for moral guidance. The time bomb that is actually ticking is the one marking our end as a moral force in the world. Hopefully - the changes made by the new administration will put an end to this nonsense.
Torture is intrinsically
Torture is intrinsically evil, which means circumstances do not matter. In other words, a "ticking bomb scenario" would not justify it. You cannot do evil to bring about good. That's consequentialism, strongly condemned by JP2 in Veritatis Splendour.
"Wildly out of context?" It's
"Wildly out of context?"
It's an NCR article.
It is about torture and government policy.
The quotes are about torture, and are from the Vatican Council and Pope John Paul II.
I truly have no idea what you mean. They could not possibly be MORE in context.
One can say all different
One can say all different theories about 'just war' and any other issue contradicing the modern thoughts on many issues. BUT one cannot not contradict the Gospel set forth from Jesus Christ our Lord. Try as one might his gosepl does not include torture of any kind be it physical, mental or spiritual. Compassion is Lord's words. Love is his by-law.
Thank you for writing this.
Thank you for writing this. The response of the American Church has been, as I recently wrote to Bishop Hubbard (in his capacity as Chairman of the USCCB Committee on International Justice and Peace), "muffled and intermittent".
I appreciate that Bishop Hubbard did deign to respond to me; however, he merely thanked me for "sharing my insights regarding the gradual desensitizing by some of the American populace to the issue of torture." (I had also written to my own bishop in September 2006 regarding the impending torture legislation then, but received no response.)
My discouragement stems from impressions, borne out by a recent Pew poll, that, Catholics and non-Catholics alike, seem to be informed more by television dramas than by the sickening reality of torture committed both in the name of Americans and throughout the world. Disturbing legitimizations, nay celebrations, of torture appear too often in newspaper opinion columns, remarks by television pundits, "chain" e-mails, and in idle comments during everyday conversation. Indeed the Pew poll shows that 51% of non-Hispanic Catholics view torture as often or sometimes justifiable. (The numbers are 49% for all Americans, 54% for weekly churchgoers and a high of 62% for evangelical Protestants.)
Clearly, the time is now for pastoral instruction from the Catholic hierarchy, indeed from all religious leaders in this country, on the issue of torture. Yet, to their shame, we hear nothing. Are they too wedded to political alliances that our bishops neglect their pastoral duties?
I sat in awe when we invaded
I sat in awe when we invaded Iraq. I remember saying to my wife, "my country wouldn't do this." Then a few years later we learned about the torture of detainees at Abu Ghraib, and I felt betrayed by my government. Now we learn that torture was not just ignored by the highest levels of our government, but actually sanctioned, and I am aghast. If these crimes were committed by another country the average American citizen would be calling for penalties against the invader and its leadership. We actually attacked Iraq in 1990 when they invaded Kuwait - such was our moral indignation when one sovereign nation invaded another.
The United States of America now has no moral high ground upon which to stand. It will take years to rebuild the damage caused to how the world both sees and deals with us. And for what? If the torture techniques we emulated caused American forces to lie to prevent further torture, how can we accept the statements from the last administration that the use of the same techniques prevented further attacks upon our soil?
One of the previous comments asked why no one in the Catholic hierarchy was standing up on this issue. I can only answer that I have and will continue to do so. However, I'm just a microscopic cog in the machine.
In Christ's Service,
Dcn. Mark Bussemeier
Archdiocese of Santa Fe
May I ask, Deacon, are you at
May I ask, Deacon, are you at Our Lady of Peace (I believe it is called) in Santa Fe?
I am on the border, and attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in Mexico (less politicized by Republican Bishops, no flags in the Sanctuary, more free religiously, no fear of being denied arbitrarily Communion, in fact where Catholics and other pilgrims are welcomed, not refused) but it appears it would be worth the six hour trip (or more in my old pick-up!) to Santa Fe to hear Mass beside you (especially but not only when the Reverend Father John Dear SJ comes in from his mountain hermitage to say Mass).
pray for us please
And did you not now rejoice when our good and Catholic governor signed the abolition of the death penalty legislation? Perhaps we now discover once more our moral compass so long abused. Perhaps we will lose him as Ambassador to the Vatican, where he recently conferred with the Pope.
Hello, Brother. I am assigned
Hello, Brother.
I am assigned to Risen Savior Catholic Community in Albuquerque. You'd always find a welcome here.
Peace!
Dcn. Mark
Like many other Canadians I
Like many other Canadians I have always and still view America as a great nation. But great countries also make great mistakes...for example electing George Bush as president.
Unfortunately in Canada we also have people like Bush and Cheney in power at various levels of government and we must learn from the USA that electing such leaders will only lead to madness...like torture and war.
The tenets of Judaism,
The tenets of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, hold that all human beings are created in the Image of God. Torture desecrates and defiles that Image. In every shriek of those in unbearable pain, in every crazed nightmare of those who are denied sleep for days and weeks at a time, in every muffled moan of those plunged under water for minutes at a time, trying not to breathe lest they drown, in every rape, ever pain inflicted God is broken. God is defiled. God is tormented. In each act of torture our common humanity is defiled, and our Nation is more despised by many in our global community. These deeds poison human society, Furthermore, they are supreme dishonor to the Creator.
Though blame for these war related atrocities should be place on the Bush Administration, we should not exempt ourselves if we haven't lifted our voices in protest. These deeds combined with the other evils perpetrated by our wars of empire render the prayer “God bless America” blasphemous.
Rabbi Abraham Heschel, a Jewish philosopher and theologian reminds us; “In regard to cruelties committed in the name of a free society, some are guilty, but all are responsible.
Very clearly and beautifully
Very clearly and beautifully put. This is the sort of comment that ought to be followed with Snowdrop's "Christ is risen! Alleluia! Alleluia!" but won't of course, because folks like Snowdrop seem to have mixed up Nationalism with faith a long, long time ago. Which is, of course, what enabled this situation to arise in the first place.
This is simply erroneous
This is simply erroneous information. In Genesis 1, it states that man was created in the image of God. This understanding courses through both Jewish and Christian tradition going all the way back to ... well, Genesis.
While simplifying for efficiency purposes, because "man was made in the image of God," all men are equal in the eyes of God and hence the concept of equality and then equality under the law. Hence, our rights are not conferred by the state but are rather "endowed by our creator." This concept is so basic to so many Americans that one often forgets that these notions are not as apparent in cultures that are not Judeo-Christian in origin. We just assume it to be a universally held belief because the belief has universal application to us.
Of all the world religions, Islam is the only one that does not have something approaching a "golden rule." As it relates to this point, while man was created in the image of God for Jews and Christians, this is exactly NOT TRUE for Muslims. In Islam, Allah is so transcendent, that the very idea of anthropomorphising him is considered criminal. In Islam man is a created thing and Allah a fully transcendent other. This fundamental difference is what launched the iconoclastic movement in the Byzantine Orthodox Church (feeling the influence of fiery Islam) and is what has the OIC looking to redefine human rights as shari'a law in the UN - an initiative that began in the mid-1980s when the Iranian Ambassador noted their rejection of the International Declaration of Human Right because it was impermissibly a Jewish/Christian document (the Iranians are correct about its roots). It is what lead the OIC in 1990 to pass the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam that defined human rights as shari'a. This Declaration was then formally served to the UN as a legal instrument in 1993.
I think the comments posted by Broderick are ignorant and reflect a jaundiced view of events and understanding of history. To listen to this gentleman prattle, one would think he actually knew something about Islam or, for that matter war. I wonder why the same entities that ask for FOIA for the pictures of abu Ghareb (collected by US Army SJAs in furtherance of prosecuting those for taking them for the abuse of prisoners they documented -- long before the story broke) but are universally silent of the enormous amount of data (film, pictures etc of men, women and children being tortured to death (real torture including hacking of body parts and slow roasting) in rooms dripping with blood - made by those seeking to brag about it in a culture that seems to thrive on it. I suspect the reason is because the comparison would cause such blather to so dramatically pale in comparison.
US military are routinely waterboarded and sleep deprived as a matter of training.
Please ....
Stop being a simplistic one
Stop being a simplistic one issue voter! No one is pro-torture. While personally against torture, why should we force our religious beliefs on others. That is not how you act in an inclusive country! There are people with other belief systems. The choice to torture should be left up to the individual. Torture should be safe, legal, and rare!
You ask, "why should we force
You ask, "why should we force our religious beliefs on others." Since when is standing up for what is right and against what is wrong a "religious belief." I cannot imagine any "other belief system" that would accept torture as good.
Dear Dcn. Mark, I don't know
Dear Dcn. Mark,
I don't know but it seems to me that perhaps this anonymous poster is joking, writing a parody, and not sincere in these statements. If this is so, it is a sarcasm far too sublime for me and for many.
Torture is always and everwhere very wrong.
That this should even be an issue for debate is an unfortunate sign of the fallen times our recent past burdens us with.
frere charles
Yes, it is the same for
Yes, it is the same for abortion but sadly many of those who rightly oppose torture use the above faulty reasoning for support of murder of innocent life in the womb.
Do you have any demographical
Do you have any demographical study or Pew Institute or Quinnipiac College scientific survey to support your odd allegation that those who oppose upon religious grounds torture are simply all agog for abortion?
C'mon dudes, let's all get one!
Is this their battle cry?
I guess you didn't get the
I guess you didn't get the sarcasm. The writer simply used all of the "pro-choice" argument points and inserted torture for the word abortion. I guess the pro-choice arguments don't hold up now, do they?
"When will they ever learn?
"When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?"
Thanks for such a needed article. One consolation is that in time this abuse of power will be fully exposed.
While a priest functioning with faculties in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia, I was, "defrocked" [per front page headlines of Inquirer and Bulletin], faculties lifted, and requested to be physically outside of the archdiocese within 48 hours. This for allowing people to self-communicate and women to read scripture.
Only now....many years later, eventhough we knew it than, it was evident that I would have had more protection and more support from the then Cardinal Krol and and his staff as a pedophile. I got tossed. They got transferred. Is it not ironic?
Corruption of this magnitude at any level usually surfaces....this of its own weight. It cannot stay submerged. The perpetrators get their own reward and are condemned to live with same.
I sometimes still wonder at the "everlasting power of wanting to get revenge! But it gains nothing but more harm. Forgiveness can be its own vocation.
May the peace of Christ be with all of us! And with our Spirits!
oraque pro me Deo gratias And
oraque pro me
Deo gratias
And now you would find more charity in the Church if an unrepentent PX "illicit yet valid" Bishop, while still none for the great Padre Miguel.
We got to love it . . .
Come to Mexico.
Hey, that reminds me:
Is the Reverend Maryknoll Father Roy Bourgeois excommunicated yet?
He was the second he
He was the second he participated in a mock-ordination.
Everyone would agree that
Everyone would agree that torture is immoral. Interrogation is not. A clear distinction needs to be made between the two. Waterboarding as practiced during these interrogations by the US, although intense, does not rise to the level of torture as describe in Gospel account of the Passion of Christ. It is extremely unfair to compare the two practices. The interrogation of a few terrorist, which saved the lives of thousands of people, pales in comparison to the 10's of millions of babies murdered every year with the support of the same people who are now outraged that we might actually do something to defend ourselves from another terrorist attack.
Thank you for writing what
Thank you for writing what needs to be said. Am I not allowed to defend myself and my country by whatever means I find necessary - and the gathering of intelligence during war (and we ARE at war with those who are trying to harm us) is of the greatest importance in order to prevent the enemy from inflicting damage to our country. Thank you again.
No evidence has been
No evidence has been forthcoming that any lives were saved due to our practice of torture of the kidnapped hostages held in any of our secret prisons and military bases. In fact just the opposite has been clearly documented and demonstrated.
Unless you know something the rest of the world does not.
So Mel Gibson went overboard with the buckets of bone and blood while making his very violent little movie.
This you now use as a medical standard to judge "permissible" levels of torture?
Whom would Jesus torture, and to what extent?
No "terrorist attack" was deflected due to torture. No intent could ever morally justify torture in any case, according to Catholic dogma, not even by your ludicrous accusation that those who oppose torture "support" the murder of "10's of millions of babies . . . every year."
When people are driven to desperation because we are hurting them and their families, how does it defend us from attack to hurt them more, and so madly to rationalize this?
There are tortures of many
There are tortures of many kinds that MUST stop..Many are buried and ignored by society..Sexual abuse,physical abuse, hunger,tyranny,genicide and on...SO MANY ABUSES..voices crying in the wilderness...OH LORD SHOW US THE WAY...OPEN OUR EYES...LET THY WILL BE DONE....
My morning paper today says
My morning paper today says Conci Rice told a bunch of 4th graders we didn't torture.
An honest recognition of our practices and the willingnmess to be judged on their morality - beyond someone's ideology - is necessary to move along.
When one lives in a culture
When one lives in a culture driven by fear and revenge rather than hope and forgiveness, torture and violence seem to be a natural response. Someone gouged the eyes of our self-centered and often indifferent country and its leadership. How could we expect anything other than a blind and reckless flailing about to seek retribution? And having a moral vacuum in key positions didn't help.
An investigation should be
An investigation should be done.
What is distressing is that the American Bishops supported President Bush for election/re-election, and supported McCain. Apparently the Bishops support TORTURE, unprovoked/unnecessary war, the death penalty, tax cuts for the rich, multi-billion dollar sweetheart contracts for Republicans, loosening of environmental, health and food/drug/worker safety standards, deregulation of the banking/securities "industries" to help the rich, etc. I guess you can be for all of those things and still receive communion and receive awards at Catholic colleges. An investigation should be done.
The American Bishops appear to base their politics on a single issue, conveniently ignoring other moral and ethical matters. Have they been duped by the Republicans? (Makes one think of "Fool me once, ..." as the Bishops have been fooled many times.) Maybe there are there sinister reasons, such as the Bishops are "closet" Republicans and/or the Bishops are dependent on funding coming from Republican supporters (follow the money). Their positions are not remotely logical. (Maybe the burning incense has effected their ability to think logically and use common sense and reason.) An investigation should be done.
How did someone like Deal Hudson (who left a professorship at Fordham after being accused of misconduct with a student) get an inside White House job to solicit the American Bishops support for Republicans? Then he worked on McCain's campaign. What contacts did the Bishops have with him and other Republicans? An investigation should be done.
How come there are so many so-called "Catholic" organizations promoting Republicans and challenging Democrats (e.g., Patrick Reilly and the Cardinal Newman Society with its ties to conservative organizations). It seems obvious that there is politics behind much of their causes (e.g., Obama at Notre dame). An investigation should be done.
I wish! Or we can all just
I wish!
Or we can all just turn aside and brood, and brood no more upon these evil deeds, and arise, and go to Mexico, to Latin America, to a more sane and humane and one Holy Catholic Church, one in which Catholics are actually, well, you know, welcome.
Reading Albert Menendez's book John Kennedy: Catholic and Humanist (something like that!) we find this joke cracked by Jack a few days before his public execution. At the national conference of the CYO in NYC, with hierarchy assembled and presidentially recognized, President Kennedy told this joke:
He was awfully glad to find some nuns left standing outside the luxury hotel door, because he had always found that bishops were most often Republicans while the Sisters were Democratic like himself.
Some things never change. They just get worse before they get better.
Jesus said in times like these, head for the hills.
Come to Mexico.
so.......lemme get this
so.......lemme get this straight - force is not permissible. ever. never. are you guys all sure about that?
i'm just glad none of you had the job of winston churchill or f.d.r. or general patton during world war II.
we'd all be goose stepping and killing jews.
and b.t.w., please don't compare a muslim terrorist to jesus christ. what a poorly written editorial.
Force is not
Force is not permissible.
Only the strength to Love.
Unless you are not choosing to follow truly Jesus Christ.
Snowdrop: I found this
Snowdrop:
I found this editorial to be focused on the complexity of the issue of torture and how the American government and many Americans have been led astray from the non-violence of Jesus as revealed through his life, suffering and death.
Because of the lack of dialogue and consideration of options other than "war" and "violence/murder", the U.S.government has spent millions/billions of dollars destroying Iraq's infrastructure and the deaths of men, women and children. Financial support for needed social service programs within the United States has been reduced. Education for Peace, Justice, and Compassion is greatly needed throughout the educational system, both public and Catholic.
I'm also curious, Snowdrop, that your comments often are at the beginning of the comments section. Wondering how you manage to do that???
Yes, Jesus, is risen - with revelation of His Resurrection presence - to be among his followers calling them to experience new life in the present time. Can you share with us how you are experiencing Jesus' resurrection life.
I vote for these techniques
I vote for these techniques when it becomes a matter of survival as it now is in this world of Muslim domination. Sometimes extreme measures must be taken to combat the fanatical takeover of the Christian world as exhibited by many of the prisoners. "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"!!
If that were the case, then
If that were the case, then why did Christ, who is our example, allow himself to be tortured and murdered, when he had more than enough power to instantly remove any of his enemies from existence?
Please read Jesus, who
Please read Jesus, who directly and explicitly did away with the lex talionis which you quote, and who commands us to love, and to love our enemies.
Have these anonymous commentators never read the Gospel? their Catechism?
It's not "Muslims", but
It's not "Muslims", but fundamentalist Muslims...just as fundamentalist Jews take a hard line against peace in the Mideast and fundamentalist "Christians" are willing to support torture, invasion, anything that kills except abortion.
The basic cause of the rise of fundamentalism is fear...one has to wonder just how much faith any of the fundamentalists really has...they certainly don't seem to trust in the providence of their God and want to take everything into their own hands.
No one is fooled by your
No one is fooled by your self-righteous rhetoric on "moral blind spots": NPR has never been, and probably never will be, a sincere and forceful opponent of abortion, assisted suicide, embryonic stem cell research, artificial contraception, divorce, premarital sex, homosexual activity, same-sex marriage, and a host of other very serious moral concerns. Not to mention matters of Catholic tradition and teaching, like women's ordination, theological dissent and homosexuality in the priesthood.
I didn't have time to look through all of your archives, but I did look through 2008-2009 and can find no similar editorial on these other issues that have been at the forefront of national debates -- as much as, or even more so, than torture. To the extent that NPR covers these other issues, it is to undermine pro-life activists and faithful bishops, always with the refrain that "abortion is not the only evil." You're right, it's not; thank you for reaffirming Catholic teaching on torture. Now get in the game and start embracing all of Catholic teaching with sincerity, or stop using Catholic doctrine as means of promoting a political agenda whenever it suits your needs.
ProLifer - It's NCR, not NPR.
ProLifer - It's NCR, not NPR.
This is exactly what the ProLife movement would need to do: "Now get in the game and start embracing all of Catholic teaching with sincerity, or stop using Catholic doctrine as means of promoting a political agenda whenever it suits your needs."
If Jesus Our Lord and Savior
If Jesus Our Lord and Savior was willing to endure torture to save us from our sins, why should people complain about torture? Jesus believed it was necessary and He would believe it is necessary today to save us from the infidels. President Bush and Vice President Cheney are sorely missed.
Dear Anonymous, I am sorry
Dear Anonymous,
I am sorry that you haven't been touched by the torture that Jesus endured. Jesus was tortured because he was desecrated by people who were convinced that they had the authority to do cruel things against people. Whether Jesus was the incarnation of God or not, he did not deserve to be tortured and the fact that Jesus endured it is not an excuse to continue the practice.
Unfortunately, the church was "turned" from the teachings of Jesus around the beginning of the Roman and Greek Catholic Churches. Constantine made all Roman Citizens Catholic and all preexisting Christians were made Roman citizens.
Thee Just war theory was only a theory. In order for a war to be just all of the criteria had to be valid at all times, this includes not harming a civilian. Now that we have automatic wars and weapons of mass destruction, it is not possible to have a theoretical just war.
Why do Christians apparently justify the abuse that Jesus allegedly experienced? Good Friday, is a horrible day to celebrate. Jesus and probably a good majority of those killed by the government did not deserve the inhumanity that they were served.
Now I don't know if Jesus was God or that God has more than one person. I don't know why God would want to become man and be treated with so much prejudice as Jesus apparently experienced.
Constantine was able to make a myth out of Jesus by making his citizens believe that it was God's plan for Jesus to be sacrificed so that Rome would not be declared criminal in executing Jesus or any other Christians. Because Constantine was able to make Jesus appear to be God's plan for redemption, Christians no longer had to risk their lives by following the teachings of Jesus.
I don't know if Jesus was fully man or not. I try to follow his teachings even though I don't know if he is one of the persons of God. IF we all believed that Jesus was God's only begotten son, and he is no more than a saint, then he will not become God's son, any more than we are sons and daughters of God.
I pray for the Church and I pray that the spirit of Jesus will inspire his followers to do the right thing.
Peace!
"Father, if it possible, let
"Father, if it possible, let this cup pass from my lips. But not my will but yours be done."
While sweating blood.
While the Apostles slept.
Please take a course in basic Christian theology, in Scripture, in the dogma of the Holy Catholic Church.
What you write dangerously makes no sense, and is not of Christ. It is deception, and meaningless rationalization for the crimes our past government committed.
Torture is never right. Love one another.
Anonymous, You need a basic
Anonymous, You need a basic course in the Faith. Start with the 10 Commandments. You need a refresher course to learn how to "Love thy neighbor as thyself." "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." So, with your logic and without the aide of the Holy Spirt to guide you in interpretation of basic Christian understanding of scripture, you would say that we are to not love our neighbor as ourself, but to torture our neighbor as Jesus was tortured!
No wonder you miss the likes of Cheney and Bush, the warmongers and pro-torturers. They were really Roman pagans and not followers of the teachings of Christ that the "pro-lifers" support.
We must investigate the
We must investigate the practice of torture in our name. If it is necessary or proven to be the case, we must prosecute the government officials who have given permission for torture in our name.
When we lose compassion for
When we lose compassion for another - be they enemy or friend - we lose our Christian moral ground... There is need for "personal moral reassessment" not only in the issues we must address, but also in the manner in which we address them.
All the years that torture
All the years that torture has been around no one seemed concerned and this is a shame. I have prayed against torture since I was a pre-teen and prayed that people that did this would be ashamed if nothing else.
When we invaded Iraq there were many articles about the fact that Syria tortured children in front of their parents to get them to talk. We didn't invade Syria. Congress, unfortunately, is so clueless to the world, as is our church. New rules, new novenas, new saints by the dozen, torture goes on.
We in America have tortured in our prisons. People have been cooked alive in cells with the heat turned up, women have been raped, children (teens) beaten. Can we say the people that did this were not Christians?
If Jesus had died comfortably in bed surrounded by friends and family at the age of 1000 we should not torture. Well, now maybe we will become a more Godlike people, wouldn't that be wonderful. Maybe a blessed people. Love is warm, love is comforting, even loving your enemy will change you to something shining with pride and joy. Maybe now we can wipe this horrible sin out of our lives.
"All the years ..." Mary,
"All the years ..."
Mary, this is simply one more piece of evidence that proves that those who are leading the catholic church, at least in this country, are leading us down the wrong path.
Why have we not heard about it? Why has it not been an issue? Why was "abortion is the only issue" the battle cry of the USCCB?
The answers are really simple. The USCCB needed to distract our attention from the criminal attrocities that the Republican Administration was committing. An administration that was very clearly supported by the USCCB. As so many of the bishops told us during the election "if you support Obama, then you support abortion", the same applies here ALL of the bishops who supported the Republican Administration supported ALL of the policies of that administration. The fact that they NEVER spoke out publicly against torture, war, human rights violations etc. Is their own condemnation of their actions.
Those in the administration who implemented the practices are criminals. Those who actively supported them are criminal coconspirators.
There is a very clear pattern that has shown up in the USCCB, protecting pedophiles, protecting embezzlers, supporting war criminals ... Anyone who speaks out against them is censured. Perhaps not by them, but by their loyal minions in the pews. How many times have we heard in the churches and read in these posts "you are not a real catholic, we dont want you, get out". These are the soldiers following the example of their leaders. Censure anyone who dares to speak out against the abuse and criminal activities of those in authority.
The catholic church in the US is being led by bishops who consistently preach a gospel that is contrary to what christ taught.
The abuses go on, because the USCCB keeps them alive.
In spite of your bold
In spite of your bold proclamation in the first sentence of this article, I, and millions of other Americans, still have doubts about whether the enhanced interrogation methods of the Bush Administration, actually rose to the level of torture. Your article purposely never defined torture, choosing instead to assume that you were right to call those practices "torture". So let me help you with perhaps the most liberal definition of torture available, that from the UN Convention on Torture...
Definition of torture
Article 1 of the Convention defines torture as:
Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
– Convention Against Torture, Article 1.1
...so someone, any of you CINO National Catholic Reporter editors, please do show us where was the severe pain and suffering in the Bush Administration enhanced interrogation practices?
The Bush Admin went to great lengths to stimulate discussion and solicit differing opinions on just how far they could go with their enhanced interrogation practices without rising to the level of torture. And as your article itself says in quoting the NYT...
"The New York Times reported April 21 that in a series of high-level meetings in 2002, Bush administration officials “without a single dissent from cabinet members or lawmakers” approved brutal methods of interrogation."
I have no problem with the Obama administration deciding to change tactics regarding interrogation practices, but I have a big problem with them releasing these memos, which essentially helps our enemies and makes both our armed forces and our citizens, less safe, Releasing these memos could certainly be called an act of treason, and since...
"We are, after all, a nation of law. If laws have been broken, if lies have been told to us, then consequences must follow. To do less is to cheapen each one of us, as citizens of this great nation."
...I could very well envision a future Republican administration leveling charges of treason against the current Obama administration. That's from the be careful what you ask for, NCR editors.
Waterboarding has been
Waterboarding has been routinely performed in SERE school for more than 30 years. SERE school helps US military members prepare for war and the possibility of becoming POWS. Tens of thousands of pilots and infantrymen have received it. It has no lasting,PTSD-type effect. No lasting physical effect.
To try to assert unimpeachable "power to name things" is not a right given to the press, to anyone here. Claiming waterboarding as torture is not supportable.
It was used as a last resort on THREE or FOUR people. That it could have been done hundreds of times on these few people, with no lasting effect TRUMPS all the mumblihood in these comments.
What is so euphemistically
What is so euphemistically now called water-boarding (sounds like surfing, dude. Cool!) is torture.
Waterboarding is torture.
Waterboarding is insupportable, in so many ways.
Unfortunately for you to understand this you would need to be dragged involuntarily from your home, from your comfortable television, placed in extreme situations including several forms of torture at once, including forced nudity with electric shock, etc., to your body, extremes of cold and heat, extremes of powerful and unrelenting noise, stress positions for days, including being chained to the ceiling naked for weeks while dogs and guards attack you, deprived sleep, injected with psychotropic drugs, given filthy food if at all, food abuse you and then, blindfolded and deafened tied to a board, having seen as last sight a cesspool of filthy water, into which you believe you have been thrown and pushed underwater and held down.
No. Sure. That was no more lasting effect than a day at Disneyland, dude.
Or instead you might have just one ounce of Christian compassion to realize the extreme suffering we have inflicted upon other human beings, our own sisters and brothers, and to pray for God's merciful judgment.
What we reap we will sow. The measure we give unto others will be measured out to us. Love one another. Do not kill. Do not torture.
"Waterboarding" is torture.
It is not necessary for NCR
It is not necessary for NCR to discuss abortion. We all know it is wrong. It seems that the rest of the one-issue bishops and their followers have done enough talking for us. We are told to vote on the basis of this issue alone or to forsake communion. Then, no one has the nerve to speak up when the Bush administration committed immoral, anti-life acts.
At the same time, we hear rants about us being a "Christian" nation. Is this how Christians act??
The Iraq war stopped Saddam
The Iraq war stopped Saddam Hussein from torturing his own citizens (real torture, not enhanced interrogation, which the fringe left mislabels as torture). So, in order to be consistently against torture NCR must support the Iraq war.
Can you document your
Can you document your assertions?
Our Popes have roundly and properly condemned the Bush "pre-emptive" invasion and brutal occupation of Iraq after decades of inexorable blockade and war of siege in which the most vulnerable, the sick, the elderly, the hospitalized starved to death and died.
Are you therefore suggesting we dissent from these clear Papal declarations, by supporting what they so clearly condemned?
Like the Catholic Worker, like Pax Christi, the proper course as so many found prior to the Bush war, was an end to the unjust and inhumane blockade (as is the case in Cuba and Gaza now) and a growth of cooperation and peace.
Was the murder of hundreds of thousands, including innocent children, mothers, farmers, families, as a direct result of US military actions justifiable as a way to "end" the suffering you allege here, without sources, or did we rather increase tremendously the suffering, and the killing, of innocent people and completely decimate their once more peaceful society?
How interesting they happen to have been sitting upon enormous petroleum fields.
How very many mainstream humanitarian and religious groups who call torture torture you wrongfully call "the fringe left!" Your misleading euphemisms will not be so well received in the Final Judgment when no further deceptions will be possible! Come back, now.
"For I was subject to your enhanced interrogation, and you did nothing to help me."
As this essay opens, Pope John Paul II recalls the torture an Empire brought upon Jesus Christ, and exhorts all Christians to reject any form of torture.
Would you have us in this as well dissent from Our Holy Father?
An interesting, if
An interesting, if simplistic, editorial. I do not support torture either, but the "ticking time bomb scenario (or "ticking dirty nuclear bomb" scenario)would cause me to rethink the lesser evil between one roughly handled terrorist and the lives of potentially thousands of innocent people.
By the way, in all fairness and open disclosure, shouldn't you have mentioned our own Catholic Inquisition and the torture of innocents that entailed? There were even church sanctioned manuals on how to do it "properly" (e.g. "The Hammer of God"). I have read that many modern torture practices date back to that source and to that period - which I believe only officially ended in the mid-1800's.
Pragmatically torture
Pragmatically torture provides no reliable intelligence.
Morally torture profoundly damages the torturer and those who rationalize it, as clear from your comments here.
As well as also of course seriously damaging the tortured and loved ones, which no Christian can possibly contemplate under any circumstance at all. Remember Saint Maximillian Kolbe who as an Act of Ultimate Charity offered himself in place of another, and was horribly tortured to death.
Theologically, torture is always unacceptable and repugnant to the Holy Spirit. It does not even come upon the radar screen of God's Love, to which we are most firmly committed until the ultimate consequences, like the Blessed Monseñor Romero and the Reverend Father Ellacuria, with whom we stand against torture, oppression and killing of any kind.
In particular those of us, like you here, who dare carry the burdensome title of Brother, who carry this Cross of compassion and peace, relieving any suffering and torture, sanctioning none of any form, recalling the several (though possibly apocryphal) Prayers of the Saintly Friar Francis of Assisi. Where there is hurt, let me bring healing, gentle and cleansing, even to the most rejected leper of our time, the imprisoned, those tortured by our own government in its most gruesome misguidance.
When one protects freedom by
When one protects freedom by e-liminating it one has already lost it; when one safeguards values by adopting the ways of those who threaten them, they are already gone. We fool ourselves into thinking that we have won, are better than the "others" who threaten us, but unbeknownst, we have already become them. They have won, we have lost and worse, we don't even realize it. At the risk of offending, I saw Sadaam not only in the Iraq to be invaded but in the invasion.
I remember as a younger person reading of the Soviet gulags and could not understand how the general populations did not see, did not revolt against them. I recall, reacting in silent, polite disbelief, to the german born wife of a former WWII marine, who had lived near a concentration camp, say that she "never knew". I still don't understand; don't even know if I would be one who "revolted" or spoke up.
As a non-US citizen, I grew up with the vision of the US as an adolescent nation yes, but nevertheless one that did "rebel", did "stand-up". Though the degree to which freedom and value were betrayed over recent years compared to Nazi Germany or the USSR was minimal, it just reminded me of the sick joke about having established the principle and now "just haggeling about the price".
Recent discussions about the original Star Trek series speak of an "earth", (that is the United States) having dealt with the great questions of value and seeking to share these resolutions; as a kid, I loved "Boston Blackie" the "friend to those who had no friends, enemy to those who made him and enemy". No longer innocent, I hope, pray, that the United States will resume its trek, "quest" to do the right thing for yourselves and for the rest of the "universe"; to be a friend who one does not fear to turn your back to.
Thank you NCR for this editorial.
The reason we have the Geneva
The reason we have the Geneva convention and laws are so that when times are scary and tough, we have the right road to travel by. Saying that after 9/11 we couldn't operate as usual is the biggest cop-out. That's when the rules we put in place are the most important. We don't let a husband smack his wife anymore saying his temper took over. That's what we did when we went to Iraq and when we tortured these people - our temper was allowed to run amok. The best way to keep it from happening in the future is to hold people accountable now for what they did. The soldiers who tortured at Abu Ghraib paid a price for their part. Now it's time for the people who ordered such things to pay their price. Then it may be more difficult to repeat in the future plus the people around the world will see we mean it when we say we are a nation of laws.
The truth is out. Torture
The truth is out. Torture sanctioned by the Republican Administration, the same administration the USCCB told us we should vote for, the same administration that the USCCB continues to support. Taught by the School of the Americas, on whose board sits bishop martino, who continues to deny they teach torture.
There is only one that can be drawn from the USCCB support of the Republican Administration, the USCCB sanctions torture and human rights abuses.
The USCCB never told us to
The USCCB never told us to vote GOP, only a few radically politicized bishops who were given far greater a pulpit than they deserved, supported by their donors from the same GOP.
The bishops demanding votes for the GOP under sacramental interdict are in fact a small minority, but given great exposure by our GOP owned media (inclduing Rupert Murdoch, who first threw the 2000 election to the GOP against the facts on the ground).
Another small correction to your essential correct statement. The bishop bought and blessed by the SOA, the US military school for torturers whose graduates include Panama's President Noriega, the ARENA Party of El Salvador (those who martyred Archbishop Romero, etc.) and the genocidal maniacs of Guatemala, like Rios Montt, this ex-Jesuit bishop who has done so much deep and permanent damage in "his" diocese, is called Morlino, not martino.
I agree wholeheartedly with
I agree wholeheartedly with those people who have condemned torture, but feel that whilst a full disclosure of what went on might reduce people's feelings of guilt that such awful things were done in their name, they must understand the consequences of such disclosures. It is very likely to act as a huge recruiting tool for Al Qaeda and its allies, as it will outrage huge numbers of Muslims around the world. There is likely to be a major increase in attacks on Americans, not just in Iraq and Afghanistan, but wherever there are groups of Americans around the world. Many people will remember the reaction when the Abu Ghraib pictures were published and what happened to American casualty figures afterwards. People may feel less happy about the disclosures when they see the incresed number of body bags returning home.
So what should be done?
J. Finnemore, your comment
J. Finnemore, your comment reminds me of the attitude of the Church hierarchy in the issue of pedophile priests. They thought that exposure of these evil deeds might be detrimental to the Church, so they tried to hide the evil. They thought along the same lines as you, that exposing the evil would be detrimental to the Church. The acts of hiding evil have been detrimental.
What we have found out is that if there was not the hiding of pedophile priests for decades and perhaps for hundreds of years, that there would not be so many cases of them continuing to abuse children sexually. It did not help the situation, but made it worse. The cover-up of the evil of sexual abuse by priests within the Church hierarchy has been detrimental to the laity and in their ability to trust these Church leaders as moral authorities.
If the United States is to gain credibility in the world as a force for peace it must expose the evil of torture and conduct an investigation to hold those accountable for breaking the international law. Otherwise it is detrimental to our credibility and trust in the world as leadership with integrity and a high standard of morals in honoring international laws we have agreed to.
The likelihood of increased attacks comes from rhetoric that was initiated by the war-hawks of the Bush Administration and in foreign policies that engage us in war only and never ever create the circumstances for peaceful relations among other nations and peoples.
The problem is with religious fundamentalist that are a minority in all religions. This is also what needs to be exposed. Too often we only portray our enemies of behaving with cruelty and injustice, but a closer look reveals the same problem in our own religion and in our own country's policies. It should all be revealed and "all things shall be revealed." It cannot be covered up.
The Iraq War was a recruiting tool for Al Qaeda as it did outrage huge numbers of Muslims around the world. It also was a war in which our allies did not want to engage in. Torture also outraged our allies as well. Shall we be in fear of Al Qaeda, but not fear losing our allies? Shall we try to prove to our allies and to huge numbers of Muslims that we are a force for good and not evil in the world?
For those who choose, there
For those who choose, there is a lot of mileage in this issue.
We begin with a Presidency that began in the USSC. Al Gore was supposed to win, the darling of the liberals, but he didn't and everything that Mr. Bush did or said from that point on would be tarnished. With the brief intermission following 9/11, the din never really abated. While Afganistan was tolerated, Iraq was labled as so many things, the media even had a hard time identifying what we were fighting -- not because there was a lack of clarity but because there was so much obfuscation by the left. If war is going to be fought I firmly believe that it is better to fight a war on someone else's dirt than our own.
Was the war in Iraq necessary? Our elected representatives (President and Congress) thought so, members of both parties. That's what we hire our elected representatives to do -- make decisions in our name. Some of those folks voted against going to war in Iraq (the current President for one), but more voted for than against. Once the decision is made to put our troops in harm's way, then you either go all out to fight the war, using every tool available when it can be profitably used, or you are wasting the lives of the young folks you send off to war. Every president during my lifetime, going back to FDR, has bemoaned the fact that his orders would lead to loss of life by our youngsters. Nevertheless, each President has stood tall and acted to preserve, protect and defend the USA.
Anybody who dares say that torture besmirches the reputation of the USA, is sadly ignorant of history. If torture is not done by an OSS or CIA or whatever other group of letters of the alphabet you choose, it will be done by those most affected. To fight a war blindly is stupid, even inexcusable.
So, the issue of torture amounts to fun and games for those opposed to Mr. Bush. If we go to war, conclude the war as swiftly as possible, using everything in the arsenal.
Does saying this make me a bad person? I have no doubt that some will think so. No matter. My convictions are my own and are not taken lightly.
Deacon. Dude. Gore won. Papa
Deacon. Dude.
Gore won.
Papa Bush's hand-picked Supreme puppets played a coup d'etat.
Gore won.
Count the votes.
Case closed.
The rest of your comments rationalizing an unjust, imperialist, genocidal invasion and occupation condemned by two popes, darlings of the radical right, casts in doubt your status as a Catholic deacon, as you display here a radical dissent from papal teachings. How then can you teach and preach in the name of the Church, in the name of Christ?
It is amazing that Catholics
It is amazing that Catholics still won't critize former President Bush for approving the torture of prisoners. Bush claims to be Pro-life and got a free ride from our Bishops. I guess he could have done most anything as long as he said he was Pro-life.
Dear frère charles du désert
Dear frère charles du désert OSB OBLAT
Is torture morally permissible under the ticking time bomb scenario? How is this differnt from killingt soldiers in a just war?
Torture to the Christian is
Torture to the Christian is never acceptable, under any circumstances, under no scenario.
The Vatican declares that the indiscriminate instrumentality of modern warfare makes a "just" war impossible.
Love thy enemy.
The only strategy that works.
Forgiveness, acceptance and Love.
As the Gospel says:
Heaps live coals upon your enemies head . . .
Love thy enemy.
Jesus said it.
I believe it.
Just do it.
Hopefully this blog will
Hopefully this blog will still be read, even though it is now May. Yes, you are right, the exquisite paragraph from the "Church in the Modern World" Vatican Council document (beginning of the article) nails it.
I'm too busy to have read the other blogs, but I have to remark on the two stunning photos, the top looking like Christ's outstretched hands, the bottom looking like a man hooked up to some electrical device, for some sort of electrocution--still with the Christ-like outstretched hands! Horrible.
We have to speak out. We have to talk to each other. We have to "tell it to our children." This torture is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE. KGB methods!
So ironic, America is DOUBLY ENMESHED in this Middle East/Arab situation because of its funding in millions of dollars for JEWISH ISRAEL MILITARY "AID". Not "aid" it is "military collusion and STUPID funding of weapons industries". So folks, as the most devout Christians know: on this issue, as a rich world power, WE ARE SINNING IN TWO WAYS ON THE VERY SAME ISSUE. Yes, by definition, these American government policies are officially CORRUPT. We must tell THE ENTIRE TRUTH. My other blogs, written today, on the May 8th Vatican/Holy Land visitations, are part of this same commentary.
Well, it seems as if the
Well, it seems as if the Democrats are involved in the torture debate as well, much to the chagrin of many NCR readers. It is obvious to everyone that Nancy Pelosi and other congressional leaders of BOTH parties knew what was going on and even asked if "more needed to be done." Anyone who saw her Pelosi's news conference yesterday could see that she is hiding a lot. President Obama, after a campaign of closing Gitmo, has just announced that he is re-opening the Gitmo military tribunals after he took a lot of public credit for closing them. He has also decided not to release pictures that he campaigned to do. Looks like Obama and the democrats are resorting to the same tactics as the Bush administration.
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