Gay group director responds to cardinal's criticisms

Clint, Clint, yes Clint again and as usual condemning people to hell. How comfortable it must feel, Clint, to be so sure of what our Lord said. Yes, Clint, you are the one who knows what the Lord said and what he certainly would have said to gay sinners, sin no more. Yes, Clint, for our sake you instruct us, as you have done so many times. Like your favorite Cardinal George, when you need a head-line "round up the gays."

Clint, as to count 1 in your indictment: Jesus constantly and consistently encouraged the brethren to love [never distinguishing as to gender].
Count 2: Jesus only asked for our hearts in relationships to one another and to himself; he despised being a slave to a law and abandoning love in the process.
Count 3: Jesus never advocated sinning; you assume that some forms of love are sinful from the get-go [as the legalists would say "ipso facto"]. Two people deeply committed in love are by nature and by God's grace encouraged to express it. When the woman was caught in adultery, she was just that "caught in adultery"-------there is the sinful behavior [breaking her vowed promise to the committed other]; has nothing to do with gender.
Count 4: absolutely! That is why Jesus severely reprimanded the hierarchs of his day when he told them that they should stop putting onerous burdens on the people when those burdens had nothing to do with love and relationship with our loving God.
Our God is a lover, NOT a lawyer..........we thank Him.

>Did the Lord ever, at any point in His public ministry, or at any time in the Gospels, Epistles, or Old Testament, say that homosexual relationships were praiseworthy and morally right?

No, but Our Lord never specifically condemned them either.

Just a few answers to Mr. Green's questions:

a. Did Jesus ever say homosexual relationships are wrong?

b. No, but what do same-sex relationships have to do with "grave and
persistent sin"?

c. Yes, but Jesus also told his listeners to forgive indefinitely.

d. Maybe, maybe not.

Did he ever say they were morally wrong. As I have studied the Gospels, it appears that Christ is mute on the subject.

Just a quick comment to defend Jesus, Clint.

Wasn't his ministry an example of meeting people where they were and showing them unconditional love?

Didn't Jesus empahsize the importance of love and never once say anything about the mechanics of that love?

Didn't Jesus have a beloved who was not of the same gender as himself.

It's accepting people for who they are, and not passing judgement on them because who they are scares you a lot better way for you to live out your Christian faith than waisting your time hating sin.

Just a couple of quick questions, for the sake of clarity, Examine.

Did the Lord ever, at any point in His public ministry, or at any time in the Gospels, Epistles, or Old Testament, say that homosexual/lesbian relationships were to be subject to condemnation? How did the teaching about sexual orientation from the 1969 Catholic Catechism become so militant and judgmental?

Didn’t the Lord say that we were to live our lives to the full, including living free of judgment and condemnation? Did the Lord actually ever deny anyone heaven?

While the Lord did indeed tell the woman caught in adultery that He did not condemn her it is important to note that He did firstly invite her accusers to cast the first stone?

Isn't it loving and understanding and bringing healing more important than condemning our limited perceptions of other people’s supposed shortcomings? How and when did it become acceptable to judge when Jesus clearly warned us against that? When and how did eternal souls become vulnerable to human scrutiny?
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Did the Lord ever say that being homosexual was "intrinsically disordered"? On the other hand, did He not say "Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned". Luke 6:37 (For the sake of clarity.)

Mr. Green, I am so happy my God is a God of love, compassion and mercy. I am sorry to hear your God is such a judgmental and condemning God. The Good News of Jesus, in part was about his message of what a wonderful God we have. Remember also that Jesus came to change the Old Testament’s ideas of a judgmental and punishing God. Then Jesus left us one commandment, (notice it is only ONE and not all the TEN that had been already violated. Only one this time), TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER, as HE loved us….without any interest or conditions…. God loves you with an incomparable and unconditional love and nothing can change that fact. Saint Augustine said that everything that exists exists in the love of God and that which is not love by God does not exists. Isn’t wonderful to know that ALL that exists is because God LOVES US? I think it is awesome. Cheer up Mr. Green!

Clint, did you notice the words of Cardinal George? “No one should be misled by the claim that New Ways Ministry provides an authentic interpretation of Catholic teaching and an authentic Catholic pastoral practice,"
Cardinal George, among many others, believes that the members of the clergy are the only ones who can provide an authentic interpretation of Catholic teaching. A position they have usurped within the Church for centuries now. They seem to thereby claim an exclusive access to the life of the Holy Spirit within the Church.
The Holy Spirit works where it chooses and within those who open their minds and lives to its inspiration. The clerical hierarchy does not have exclusive access to the wisdom of the Spirit. It is very credible that it may inspire to give a proper interpretation in this matter to New Ways Ministry and other lay people within the Mystical Body. The Cardinal, and others, should learn to listen.

"...our brothers and sisters who struggle with homosexual feelings..."

As a single, divorced, white male, I still "struggle" with heterosexual feelings.

Why? Because God gave me a heterosexual orientation. It's not something I chose.

As for behaviors, well, that's been at times another thing :)

And, yet, Jesus wants us to forgive indefinitely, without limit, just as he did on the cross.

If forgiving is good for God, we can only rationally conclude that it's good for us, too! The Son of God apparently took into account our fallible human nature.

JPII once said that we create our own hells: We can, indeed, be our own worst enemy.

Ray, it has been my consistent experience in my clinical work that it is not the homosexual persons who are stuggling with homosexuality: it is all of those who are trapped by their own bigotry and oppressive attitudes who struggle with it.

For a church that demands Don't Ask Don't Tell as it's official statement of policy, Courage is entirely misnamed. It should be called Craven.

But it seems to me that it is the teaching of the Church in this matter that is being questioned.

"The western world has limited marriage to one man and one woman since time of Roman Republic even before Christ."

Using your logic, we need to reinstate slavery as a bona fide human practice in the western world.

The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, slanderers and swindlers all have the right to a civil marriage. So, exactly why should our state governments discriminate against the “homosexual offenders”? The church should marry whomever it pleases according to its understanding of God's law. Likewise, state governments should create civil marriage for their citizens as they deem appropriate.
In the end, God will decide which souls will be let into heaven. I daresay there will be a number of clergy left at the gates.

Jesus clearly warned us not to pronounce judgment on anyone. This allows Catholics to embrace the Rite or Sacrament of Reconciliation individually knowing that it is held under an oath of total confidentiality through the celebrant.

The question of same-sex marriage and perhaps all of our other concerns about what or where people are going wrong, should be of little concern to us as individuals, as long as we believe that were are following God's will ourselves. Furthermore, if we truly believe in God's unconditional love these questions could be more compassionately centered to minister to others rather than to condemn. Only this path can lead us to transformation.

For still another view on this matter you are invited to visit: http://whenreligionfails.blogspot.com/search/label/fear%20of%20God

Clint, the problem is: Are these teachings we are getting from Rome really the teachings of Christ? I think not. They are divisive and hateful.

Yes the bridge is Christ but many of our brothers and sisters do not realise this and do need our prayers and the help of Courage to help them on their spiritual journey

I think you are sadly mistaken if you think the Church can one day say homosexual acts are sinful and then the next day say they are not. For if that were to happen what other teaching would be changed next? God also created mass murderers and child molesters, that does not mean their actions are moral. Your statement that God created homosexuals so therefore their actions are moral is absurd and undefendable. I am just as big a sinner as the next. The only difference between you and me is I do not call my immoral actions moral. I confess my sins in the confessional, I do not march down Main Street wearing my sins as a badge of pride. For the sake of your immortal soul, repent. Hell is forever, why take a chance. Stick with Church teaching and you will be saved. Defy Church teaching and you place yourself outside. PS-- the Church never taught that slavery was either moral or immoral.

God created the human body to accomodate love making between a male and a female. If He had wanted same sex attracted people to make love He would have altered the body design to accomodate this but He did not.
There are physical side effects from sexual activity outside the monogonmous norm of a marriage which the ever rising rates of sexually transmitted diseases attest to.
Our fallen natures mean we are all prone to temptation.To be same sex attracted is a particularly difficult form of temptation and I firmly believe that any soul tempted in this way who lives a celibate lifestyle is a great saint because the world constantly urges them to indulge in the lifestyle.
We must all try to be pure of heart .There is no discrimination against same sex attracted people in the Church. Every Catholic is called upon to be chaste until they enter into the sacrament of marriage. I am a single female I am called to be chaste it is irrelevant whether I am attracted to men, women or both I am called to be pure of heart and to forgo sex until I ever find it to be God's will that I enter into the married state.

I am sorry Catherine I know your heart is in the right place and you are sincere in your concern but if you follow your logic we should accept the premise of pedophiles who claim they are acting out of instincts of love or the adulterer who tells his extra mistress that he /she is acting out of love.
God did not create homosexuality just as He did not create adultery or pedophilia They are human acts of volition to misuse the God given gift of sexuality outside of its natural God created context which is the coupling of a man and a woman with the natural consequence of the sexual act usually being a new life.In some cases this does not occur. Some couples find themselves unable to have children and they know for some reason God has different plans for them perhaps adoption or working in professions that care for children.We have become so immersed in the world's view of sexual activity as a recreational right and need we have lost our understanding of it as part of God's Creation and gift.
Why so some souls struggle with same sex attraction? Partly because our society has encouraged people to indulge their sexual appetite and the only "crime" in secular culture is to not prevent the natural consequence of sexual activity by making sure you use contraceptives or condoms.
Any appetite if indulged grows hence the sad spectacle of sexual addiction in some souls.
Yes homosexual behaviour has existed since the beginning of time because we are born into original sin and have a fallen nature. However it is a weak love that tells someone with same sex attraction that the only way they will be happy is to live the lifestyle It is the same as telling an alcoholic that the only way they will find peace and fulfillment is to drink alcohol.
Jesus never abandons any one of his sheep He knows a same sex attracted soul needs grace to help them stay chaste and He will provide that grace in abundance and they are capable of becoming great saints whose heroic virtue in maintaining chastity will bring much needed grace and strength into the Mystical Body of Christ which is so sorely wounded at present.
Our same sex attracted brothers and sisters in Christ need our prayers and love so that they can develop the strength to see they can reject the lifestyle without feeling unworthy .We are all sinners in need of God's mercy and love.

It is not I who says that a homosexual act is immoral. The Church says it. If I made up the rules, there would be no rules and we would all get to heaven no matter what we did or didn't do. But I did not make up the rules, God did. And He says, through Holy Mother Church, that homosexual acts are immoral and heterosexual acts outside of the bonds of marraige are immoral, and the use of contraception immoral. You ask how can a true act of love be sinful? Simple, a homosexual act has no chance of procreation and therefore can never cooperate in God creative nature. That is why the homosexual act is called a sin against nature and an abomination. Again, not me talking, but the Church. So if you have a problem with it, take it up with the Magisterium. Believe me, I came from where you are. I used to rationalize my sins away all the time. You will find much peace when you accept the Churches teachings (all of them) even though they are extremely difficult to obey and live. I fail constantly.