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Cincinnati nun given ultimatum over ordination views
“We are losing the voice of justice,” said one member of her religious community.
Aug. 31, 2009
Louise Akers
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After serving as a voice for justice for 40 years in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati and beyond, Sister of Charity Louise Akers has been told by Archbishop Daniel E. Pilarczyk to publicly disassociate herself from the issue of women’s ordination if she wishes to continue making any presentations or teaching for credit in any archdiocesan-related institutions.
Read an update to this story: Archbishop explains why he barred nun-catechist
“We are losing the voice of justice,” said one member of her religious community. Other women religious, lay friends, supporters and former students have called for “responsible dialogue” on the subject of women’s ordination and have described the archbishop’s stance as unjust and mystifying. Many are writing Pilarczyk to officially register their distress.
Akers and Pilarczyk met for 30 minutes Aug. 10 in his archdiocesan office in Cincinnati. She had requested the meeting after being informed that persons upset with her teaching had registered official complaints with church officials. Central to those complaints were both the presence of her name and photo on the Women’s Ordination Conference web site and her membership on its advisory board.
Pilarczky, in answer to a question from NCR, said, "It is not my custom to offer public comment on personnel matters."
Akers frequently speaks and teaches at local parishes, often at the invitation of the Cincinnati Archdiocese’s Office of Religious Education. Some years ago, that office asked her to design official courses for religious education certification on the subjects of church and justice. Other issues on which she frequently speaks are peace, racism and interreligious relations. She is coordinator of the Office of Peace, Justice and the Integrity of Creation for her religious community, which has approximately 450 members.
According to the 66-year-old Akers, the archbishop outlined two requirements during their meeting. First, that she remove her name from the ordination web site, a step she has since taken in an effort to defuse the “destructive assaults” against her. Secondly, that she publicly rescind her long-held stance supporting the ordination of women.
The latter is a step she cannot take. “To do so would go against my conscience,” said Akers, who entered the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati in 1960, and holds a doctorate in feminist theology from the Episcopal Divinity School, Cambridge, Mass. Her master’s thesis, from the University of Dayton, focused on the “Prophecy of Martin L. King, Jr.”
“For four decades I have devoted my ministry to advocating on behalf of the marginalized through religious congregations, justice organizations, ecumenical and interfaith groups” Akers told NCR. “Women’s ordination is a justice issue. Its basis is the value, dignity and equality of women. I believe this to my very core. To publicly state otherwise would be a lie and a violation of my conscience. I love, support and cherish the part of Church that upholds the gospel mission and vision of Jesus.”
She quoted the words of Martin Luther, uttered centuries ago: “Here I stand. I cannot do otherwise.”
Her stance leaves her unable to make presentations at archdiocesan-sponsored events, to conduct retreats or reflection days, and to teach courses on any subject at sites that are directly related to the Archdiocese of Cincinnati. All have been part of her ministry and service to the church, whether full- or part-time.
In 1985 she established the Intercommunity Justice and Peace Center in Cincinnati. In the 1990s she served as associate director of social concerns at the Leadership Conference of Women Religious. Around that same time she was a consultant to NETWORK and served as vice president of its board. From 1979 to 1984 she was a member of the Social Action Office staff in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati, hired by then-Archbishop Joseph L. Bernardin.
A local supporter is Father Paul Donohue, a member of the Comboni Missionaries. In a personal statement, he said: “It is mystifying to me that the Archbishop of Cincinnati would ask Sister of Charity Louise Akers to refrain from teaching for credit in the archdiocese. Both the archbishop and Sister Louise love, support, and cherish the Church that upholds the gospel mission and vision of Jesus. Both present what the Church teaches. In conscience, Sister Louise must raise questions regarding doctrine. In effect, her questions bring to focus the fact that the Church is a living community of men and women whose understanding develops over time upon reflection. Perhaps, her questions are prophetic. I hope we are not witnesses to a push toward ‘group think.’”
Dr. Brennan Hill, former chair of the theology department at Xavier University (Cincinnati), where Akers taught as both adjunct and visiting professor off and on from 1986 to 2004, sees this as a moment that begs for dialogue. “Listening to ‘the signs of the time,’ a central value of Vatican II, we need a lively dialogue about the rights of women in society and in the church. The severe lack of clergy challenges the rights of the faithful to Eucharist and sacramental ministry. Our age calls for respectful and responsible dialogue on many difficult issues. The ordination of women is certainly one of them. Silencing and punishing those who want to engage in this dialogue only serves to weaken the church and push away thoughtful and well-informed believers.”
He continued: “Vatican II called for religious freedom, rejected coercion in religious matters and took a strong stand for the primacy of conscience.”
Sr. Rosie Burns of Dayton, Ohio, who works with the homeless and has known Akers for decades, described her friend as a gifted teacher who invites people to “use the gifts God gives each of us. Louise never only allows her side (to dominate) but challenges the learner to think. She has a vast knowledge of the church’s teachings on justice. She lives these teachings. We and our whole world will suffer with this loss. We are losing the ‘voice’ of justice.”
Another Sister of Charity, Carol Leveque, a pastoral associate, described Akers as “passionate and compassionate as well as committed and faith-filled. She speaks her truth, does her homework. She listens well and respectfully to others. She is always able to address both sides of an issue because she has done her homework. When she speaks her truth, she names it as her truth. I am saddened to lose the voice of someone who has always been such a great advocate for justice and who challenges us to do the same.”
Ironically, the same day Akers met with Pilarczyk, she was named to the new class of Leadership Cincinnati, a 10-month civic leadership program operated by the regional Chamber of Commerce.
Judy Ball is a freelance writer who occasionally writes for NCR.
Sister Louise should rejoice.
Sister Louise should rejoice. In another age, they would have burned her at the stake.
How salient. They'd burn her
How salient. They'd burn her at the stake in another age. Too bad thousands of ghosts who were murdered in the name of Jesus can't come back and tell their stories to us. Too bad they can't point their fingers at those who embody this same merciless spirit in history that has managed to kill, cull, and threaten its way to the present.
Religions should not be allowed to practice one of the worst forms of soul-murder on the planet today and that is sexism. It is unamerican and illegal for other multinational corporations on our shores to discrminate in this fashion. It is greatly ironic special dispensations are given to churches to practice immoral behavior.
You are on target!
You are on target!
What a shame that such a
What a shame that such a prophetic voice is silenced in the classroom because she dares to follow her informed conscience. I don't know what all these bishops are afraid will happen if they let women take their rightful place in the leadership ranks of the Church. Oh wait!
They can't be leaders because they are not ordained. And they cannot be ordained because they are not qualified for such positions of Church leadership, and anyway, they are not called. Ask any male in a Church leadership position and he will undoubtedly attest to that. And the circular reasoning goes on and on.....
Thousands burned in the name
Thousands burned in the name of Jesus...you don't know what you're talking about. Women priests is not a justice issue, it's a doctrinal issue. This means the Church won't change its position on a male-only priesthood because it can't change its position any more than a scientist can change the Second Law of Thermodynamics. By the way, what's a doctorate in feminist theology?
"...it can't change its
"...it can't change its position...." Not to be confused with 'won't change its position. To equate the obstinate Church with a well established law of science is record setting absurdity. None of the Church's positions is based on science, and the way things have been going doubtfully based on anything Godlike. A male-only priesthood is the result of a constipated decision making papacy that has always been misogynistic. The Church has never left the feudal age, has always promoted its static, never changing world reflected in its doctrines e.g. geo-centered world rather than helio-centered. Then came others, see Darwin, who prove an ever evolving dynamic world; and John Henry Newman, who stated doctrines evolve with our increasing knowledge. What is the Church's constant; see Pius X and the sin of modernism...and he was made a saint. Never confuse "can't" with "won't".
An male-only priesthood solely manifests the Church as counter-enlightenment.
Dear Walter, How does one
Dear Walter, How does one change the law of GOD? Jesus Christ instituted HIS CHURCH calling upon men to carry HIS MESSAGE! How do we change that??
So women shouldn't carry
So women shouldn't carry Jesus' message? Now there is an interesting perspective (just when you think you've heard it all!).
Doctrine has changed for
Doctrine has changed for centuries, Ed as humans have evolved. The Church has never been a static entity which is why this whole stance is suspect to women and men with a capacity for discernment.
I had Sr. Louise as a teacher and she was outstanding in that she encouraged dialogue and dissent as we teased through complex theology. Feminist theology is a theology which reflects on scripture through a unique feminine lens. Countless studies have illuminated distinctions between masculine and feminine ways of knowing. Feminist theology suggests that scripture exegeted only by men erases half of the face of God. Furthermore, not allowing feminine ways of knowing into discussions of doctrine is an erasure of Godself as expressed in the world.
Also, good science is exceedingly humble. If they close the door on any Law of anything, they are aware that they are not allowing evolution to reveal its mysteries. As we evolve, our understanding of the earth and the heavens evolves. Science knows this and is ever open to new insight. Religion can do this as well. God did not stop revealing Godself 2000 years ago with one book. God is not so small to stop revealing mystery when we were culturally, so very young any more than a mother or father would stop teaching her/his child at age 6! The only limits placed on God are the limits our dualistic minds place on God.
Hundreds of books have been
Hundreds of books have been written in feminist theology—a majority of the leading books by Ctholic feminist theologians. Moving away from systematic theology to become a forerunner of liberation theology, feminist theology developed with the blesssings of many bishops in the 1980s—until the Vatican started to understand that using women's exprience as a source of thological reflection—horrors—would provide women to contribute to theological reflections for the first time in two millennia, from a position of equality with (not subordination to) the perspective of men. Read Elisabeth Schussler Fiorenza and Rosemary Ruether, Ann Carr, Elizabeth Johnson, and Mary Hunt, for starters—and then maybe you have a right to chastize women who—better educated than their male peers (even the average priest)—she no reason at all to believe God could not call them to leadership positions in the church, included that of the ranks of the ordained.
Christ's infallible teaching
Christ's infallible teaching that woman cannot be priests is not sexist or "soul-murder", it's Catholic Dogma and we as Catholics are bound under pain of mortal sin to give assent to it. It may seem "unamerican" to you but guess what, Catholicism isn't American and the Church has consistently condemned the heresy of Americanism.
St. Pius X, ora pro nobis!
Where did Christ teach this
Where did Christ teach this infallible truth? Jesus was Jewish and did not push his followers to leave that group. It was only when the Jewish groups took exception to the teachings of the followers of the Way that they pushed these "trouble makers" out of the synagogue.
In the early church there were women in leadership positions and this men only concept came along later to meet the attitudes of the time. Oh, yes and times have change!
This is a difficult issue and as everything in the Church change comes slowly and perhaps rightly so, but that does not mean that those pushing the discussion should be ignored and debased. (Or pushed out of the Synagogue)
Dear Meadow Lark, Jesus
Dear Meadow Lark, Jesus Christ chose all men when HE began HIS CHURCH! Jesus Christ is GOD and GOD chose men!!
Alan F. on Sep. 03, 2009.
Alan F. on Sep. 03, 2009.
You stated "Christ's infallible teaching that woman cannot be priests is not sexist or "soul-murder", it's Catholic Dogma and we as Catholics are bound under pain of mortal sin to give assent to it."
Where in scripture does Jesus state that women may not be priests? Jesus didn't even state that his apostles are priests!
Women were present at every important moment of Christ's life---and if the Last Supper was a Passover Meal---women were present there as well. Just from a practical point of view---Peter, James and John and the others did not prepare the Upper Room, cook the meal and serve it. And in a custom of Jewish women---they sat down, present,for the major parts and blessings. By the way----why don't you consult some Jewish rabbis.
As far as "dogma" no it is a matter of Canon Law---man-made---not Dogma. And if you state that Jesus privately taught this "infallible teaching" you are guilty of the heresay of Gnosticism.
What this 'discipline' of the Church is--is plain injustice---women are discriminated because they belong to the 'wrong gender.' Jesus said nothing, nothing, nothing----about denying women any role in his Church.
I don't think women are
I don't think women are discriminated against in the Church. The most revered, honored and loved human in the history of our Church (more than any saint or pope) is a women - Our Blessed Mother Mary.
EXACTLY RIGHT ! I WONDERED
EXACTLY RIGHT ! I WONDERED WHEN PRIESTS AND THEIR MALE-DOMINATED RELIGION WOULD WAKE UP AND REALIZE THAT GOD SPOKE TO MARY FIRST {AS OPPOSED TO THE LOCAL MALE SPIRITUAL LEADERS} ABOUT THE COMING OF JESUS. THE VERY FACT THAT HE CHOSE A HUMAN FEMALE TO CARRY/DELIVER HIS PRECIOUS SON TELLS US HOW HE VALUED THE FEMININE SIDE OF HUMANITY. HOW ARROGANT ARE THIS ARCHBISHOP AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT HIM? TO DEVALUE WOMEN IS TO DEFY GOD'S CREATION OF THEM.
It is not Catholic dogma.
It is not Catholic dogma. The Trinity, Ascension, Resurrection, etc. are such. It is nothing but patriarchal prejudice that is offensive to what the Gospels say Jesus taught.
it's NOT Catholic dogma!!!!!!
it's NOT Catholic dogma!!!!!!
I think to tell a woman to be
I think to tell a woman to be grateful she is not being burned alive goes well above and beyond the line of crude and disrespectful.
Well the truth isn't always
Well the truth isn't always pretty.
Threatening New York
Threatening New York legislators to close churches in their districts if they vote for New York's Markey/Duane bill, instructing their priests and deacons to refuse to give Communion to individuals they, the bishops, have decided are unfaithful, threatening excommunication if anyone within their diocesan boundaries voted for now President Barack Obama, attempting to silence or threatening to fire faithful church members if they discuss the wrong things, etc., etc., etc., hardly seems worthy of one supposedly a pastoral leader, does it?
But not surprising.
Now there is the latest with Archbishop Daniel E. Pilarczyk's order to Sister of Charity Louise Akers to " publicly disassociate herself from the issue of women’s ordination if she wishes to continue making any presentations or teaching for credit in any archdiocesan-related institutions."
This from Pilarczyk who admitted to leaving priests in their positions, allowing them to continue to sexually abuse children instead of removing them from ministry and the priesthood.
Pilarczyk is a utter disgrace and his behavior makes me ashamed that he belongs to the same church as I do. To think that he, along with so many other bishops, have been such miserable failures in protecting children from being raped by priests is now intent on abusing his power further by abusing this Sister of Charity Louise Akers. I would not be surprised if he were struck by lightening.
Would that there were more like a Ted Kennedy among church leadership, admitting their flaws, sins and failures while at the same time having the character and integrity to impel them to stand up and be counted when it really matters and not say, as one bishop recently has, that the majority of bishops really disagreed with the strident minority in the USCCB but didn't want to break ranks by speaking up. Civility at all costs, even the truth it seems.
It is hard to believe, given the brave bishops' voices of the past, that so many among the present crop of bishops appear to be completely emasculated.
Rathgormack, Your attempt at
Rathgormack, Your attempt at gallows humor is outrageous.
Amen, and very well said Sr.
Amen, and very well said Sr. Maureen.
My aunt, now deceased, was a Dominican nun. I love the nuns. You all are a largely untapped asset that the Church refuses to see or understand. Women are different, they see things in a differentway. That is how God made you all. That is how our Creator wanted it.
Pray for peace. Jesus would demand it. Demand diplomacy, thats what Jesus would do were He here. Can we do any less. Stop the killing for corporate/oil profits. If we have to live on less oil that is what we must do. Jimmy Carter, our most moral prez was on the right path, way back in the late 70's. UNfortunately, Pope John Paul and Jerry Falwell put Reagen in the WH. If Carter had another term we might not now be killing for oil company profits and stealing the property of others. As in "Thou shalt not kill"; and "Thou shalt not steal".
Sister Louise ought to
Sister Louise ought to consider that the needs of her employer are what she's paid to present in exchange for her paycheck, not her personal thoughts. She's fully apprised that her employer is Patriarchy, and patriarchy is patriarchy. She should get over it or move on.
Yeah and Jesus is a public
Yeah and Jesus is a public relations image so Most Reverend Bubba and his CEO Pope can pass their company off as church?
Why is it a scandal to voice
Why is it a scandal to voice an opinion? Sister Louise is entitled to her opinions. She is not hurting anyone, or the church. She has been serving God and the people of God. The real scandal of the Catholic Church is the sexual abuse crisis, which many bishops swept under the rug for years. The faithful are reluctant to contribute to an institution that will not apologize for their wrongdoing.
yes she is entitled to her
yes she is entitled to her opinions. But, she is not entitled to them in an official capacity when they are so blatantly against Church teaching. She can talk around the coffee table or yoga mat with her sisters, fine. Can she say this in an official Church forum, where the Church is paying her--absolutely not. And for you and everyone else there, what does the sex abuse crisis have anything to do with this issue??? Because most LCWR congregations have so far refused to acknowledge their own abuse, refused to turn over personnel records and financial records of the pay-offs, then this nun and all others must be wrong on everything else as well?
"Her pay check" Are you
"Her pay check" Are you kidding? Have you ever compared the money priests get and the money Sisters get? Sisters are available 24/7 and don't even think of trying to get a priest if it is his day off.3
I would say your statement is
I would say your statement is wrong...it is completely backwards as far as my diocese is concerned, and it is one of the largest in the country,
Akers will do fine. As
Akers will do fine. As usual, it's the Church that loses when its best people are shown the door.
It sounds like Sister of
It sounds like Sister of Charity Louise Akers speaks on behalf of the marginalized. Isn't that what Jesus did on earth? Jesus also irritated the establishment. It is easier for the those in power to silence the voice that challenges us to rethink our established beliefs. They killed Jesus, but they couldn't silence His message. However, many have distorted that message.
Anonymous, your point is well
Anonymous, your point is well made and this incident continues to point out the bankrupt leadership we have as American Catholics. With in a very few years, no Bishop will be given the simple respect of the people listening to a word they say. If there is a silent majority of Bishops that are not bankrupt it is time to speak out or forever hold your peace. The great Catholic Church is becoming a tiny roman catholic ghetto. So many of our bishops are only about a legal church, they are not even a member of the church triumphant. They are no longer a part of what Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount, they only are part of catholic legalism.
The leadership in our Church continues to act destructively and destroy the peace of “the people of God.” These men will be judged just as each of us and more is expected of them because of their positions. I am glad not to be standing in their shoes!
Peace and understanding,
R. Dennis Porch, MD
It's incredible that this
It's incredible that this topic keeps coming up, especially when we see that Louise Akers is a "teacher".
Just what exactly can she teach, if she's so clueless about Church teaching?
Protestantism? It sounds like it to me. People need to get over their egos and believe the Church. It's really very simple, but oddly enough, the Church continually needs defending from its own rebellious members...
Kieran, If you go back a
Kieran,
If you go back a couple of thousand years, you'll find someone who did exactly what Louise Akers is doing - speaking out against the codified injustice of his faith. He was called rebellious, too. And then crucified for it. But wait, then the truth that he spoke was recognized and lo and behold, here we are.
Akers is courageous, and it's always interesting to see how many order priests are squarely behind women like her - more than one thinks at first. It's a wonderful witness to the gospel. Please don't dismiss it so easily.
No, Nancy, this is not true:
No, Nancy, this is not true: Our Lord didn't rebel against God.
God founded the Church has has preserved Her from error. You shouldn't suggest that a stance for truth by Truth Incarnate is the same as any old rebellion by egotists and malcontents...
God founded the Jewish church
God founded the Jewish church also remember, yet Jesus felt the need to speak up and tell them they had it wrong. Our church is preserved from fatal error but not in everyday errors. If they weren't capable of erring at all, we wouldn't have them back-tracking on Galileo and democracy. They wouldn't have had illegitimate children from the popes. No man is above error and the pope is a man.
You mean like Jesus? He was
You mean like Jesus? He was quite the rebellious member...Teach what Jesus taught and get kicked out. I like that!
Kieran, Do you believe in the
Kieran, Do you believe in the "Church" when it conducted the inquisition and crusades killing mindlessly? Do you believe in the church when it condemned Galileo and Copernicus? Do you believe in the church when it protects bishops and priests who are guilty of sexual abuse? When it supports wars, when it refuses to listen to its holiest and most learned teachers and scholars? The "church" is US, you and I and Lousie Akers. And, yes, we PROTEST against injustice, against the fearful, control hungry few in Rome and their puppets. It is our right, our responsibility to PROTEST, just as Jesus protested, as Paul protested and Francis of Assisi and many others. If we don't take the hierarchy to task, who will?
Aldus, cradle Catholic, age 67 taught by Jesuits ,Basilians, IHMs, Dominicans, Marists, Sisters of Mercy and others.
Aldus, In fairness, the
Aldus,
In fairness, the prejudicial histories which love to bash the Church over the Crusades and Spanish Inquisition shouldn't be used as a beard for trying to pass a bogus priesthood onto the faithful.
Like you, I abhor the misdeeds of Catholics - and the criminality of child abusers is something no-one can condone. But you're seriously leaving yourself exposed if you think that the sinful nature of Catholics - which is us all - means the Church can or ever will teach error in faith and morals.
It's utterly bizarre for you to state that the Church is Louise Akers - but then attack the Church - which is Rome. You should remember that the holiest saints ALL lived obedient to the teachings of the Church, and there isn't one example of any saint advancing the illegal, Protestant cause of female priesthood.
I truly despair for the Church in America, if such rebelliousness and ignorance is widespread. I don't say this to offend - please don't take it that way. We AREN'T a "them and us" Church - we are all members of the One Body, but the appointed head of this Church on earth is in Rome - and not in any current liberal trends.
Kieran, have you lost all
Kieran, have you lost all logic? You state that no saint has advanced the cause of a female priesthood. Tell us, who is it that proclaims someone a saint? The declaration of sainthood is done by the same body that refuses to examine any theological basis for the ordination of women. There is no objectivity here, no ability to see outside of its own boundaries. So for you to cite the lack of saintly commentary regarding female priests is quite self serving, but not at all thoughtful.
Bravo, Kieran. Fraternal
Bravo, Kieran.
Fraternal correction such as yours is a great work of charity.
Just as a reminder, I will quote the 'Angelic Doctor' on correction:
"[T]here are two kinds of correction. One, reserved to superiors, is directed to the common good, and has coercive force. This kind is not to be forgone because it upsets the one reproved. For in the first place, if he is unwilling to amend his ways freely, he must be forced to do so by penalties imposed; and in the second place, if he proves incorrigible, at least the common good is preserved by the fact that justice is satisfied, and others are deterred by the example made of him. Hence, neither the prospect of the wrongdoer's own upset, nor that of his friends, deters a judge from passing sentence on him.
The second kind of correction is fraternal, its aim being the reform of the wrongdoer, by simple admonition without compulsion. And so if it seems probable that he will not heed reproof, but will sink even lower, we should refrain from administering it; for when things are done with some end in view they must be regulated by the requirements of that end."
You have, I suppose, more hope of reform among these threads than I do, but I urge you not to despair. As troubling as the state of the Church in America is, it has been worse in the past, and the Church as a whole has been in far worse straits.
To “St. Frances of Rome fan”…
To “St. Frances of Rome fan”… Please do not use the words of Aquinas as a justification for beating up your brothers and sisters in Christ, accusing them of heresy or inviting them to leave the Church, as some on this forum are often doing. You have taken those words of Aquinas out of proper context, instead to advocate petty anonymous sniping toward those who post on this forum.
.
You have no idea of the actual damage that may be done to people you do not know, even among those who read and do not post. That is not legitimate “fraternal correction”, nor does it properly “defend the Church” (which is the entire people of God, including those with whom you disagree). It is not “a great work of charity” — you assume a lot about people of whom you know little or nothing. When our omniscient Lord corrected others, He knew the heart of the person and exactly what was needed to be said, ...or left unsaid.
.
You ‘identify’ yourself as a “St. Frances of Rome fan”. As an Oblate of St. Benedict whose patron is St. Frances of Rome (a Benedictine saint), her name given me at the time of my final oblation, I would appreciate your leaving our Benedictine spirituality and charism (and my patron) out of your endorsement of uncharitable attacks on those with whom you and others disagree, ostensibly for your purpose of defending the Faith.
.
If you truly desire to be informative, when you quote a passage to support your position, please give a proper citation reference for those on the forum who might not recognize the source or the context. I recognized the quotation in this case, but others might not.
.
In St. Benedict... Peace.
The Church is Rome? Like I
The Church is Rome? Like I said above, just when you think you've heard it all!
Thanks Kieran for holding on
Thanks Kieran for holding on to the true Catholic Faith and passing it on.
This woman and her supporters are deep down Protestant in their view of Christ and the Church. I hope that they don't remain (in name anyway) in the Church out of a wilful desire to undermine Her by sowing confusion and dissent but I suspect that some of them have actually stayed only for this reason. May God have mercy on them and on all of us.
Pax et Bonum
Yes, Kieran, the "true
Yes, Kieran, the "true Catholic faith" consists of teaching the opposite of what Jesus taught.
Associate, There were no
Associate,
There were no female rabbis in Jesus time on earth and we have no basis in Church Tradition, theology or scripture for advancing the Protestant version of the priesthood. Jesus NEVER taught that there should be a female priesthood. So to be Catholic is to follow the Church teachings, which can't change, won't change and never have changed in this regard.
This is all basic stuff, but I truly despair of the level of obedience and faith of some people here. The Church is God's greatest gift to humanity, it's hierarchy is chosen in heaven and yet some people on here seem to think it's a democracy.
Bizarre...
Kieran on Sep. 02,
Kieran on Sep. 02, 2009.
Where are you getting that "Jesus never that there should be a female priesthood?" Jesus didn't teach that there should be a male Catholic priesthood, either.
Jesus did not ordain his apostles as bishops, priests or deacons. Nothing appears in any Gospel (or in the narrative of St. Paul--I Letter to the Corinthians) that describes any ordination.
Women were present with Jesus in his travesl. They witnessed his miracles. They sat at his feet, and listened to him teach---just as the men did. Jesus even defended a woman's right to listen to him teach (as students of a rabbi did), rather than help with women's duties of putting out a meal--story of Martha and Mary. Women were the ones who asked Jesus where he wanted the special Meal and he told them to ask the man with a water pitcher.
If women were preparing the Passover---they also partook of it---consult your local rabbi----women were always part of the Passover Meal.
Women were at the Crucifixion. How did they know---if they were not at the Last Supper? They probably did not go into the Garden of Olives---they were cleaning up after the Passover Meal. But they knew about Jesus' capture and trial and they were present at Calvery. If the Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of the Cross---and also a meal, women were certainly at the bloody sacrifice, along with one teen-aged boy. But where were the rest of the men?
Mary Magdalene, seeing the Lord risen---knew where the meeting place of the Apostles was (the Upper Room)---how did she know that---if she hadn't been at the Last Supper?
And if women weren't invited to the Last Supper, how was it that they were invited to be in the Upper Room---praying and waiting for the descent of the Holy Spirit?
Sorry----too many questions that the "official Church" does not answer in its attempts to keep 1/2 of humanity from ordination.
The Church has got to stop blaming Jesus for its centuries of women-hating teachings and prohibitive man-made laws.
Kieran brother, where in
Kieran brother, where in heaven's name can you find in the New Testament a passage that says the Church is a hierarchy, not a democracy, where a group lords it over the majority? The Church is not above the word of God. The pope, the bishops, the priests are not lords... also check your hermeneutical assumptions.
S. Louise isn't clueless
S. Louise isn't clueless about church teaching re. women's ordination. She just disagrees with it, like I disagree and a lot of other true Catholic followers of Jesus disagree. S. Louise is prophetic and deserves our respect. She also deserves a bishop who has the compassion of Jesus and doesn't ask her to go against her conscience.
What is it with all these
What is it with all these women being "prophetic"? Dang if I had a dime for every time one of these heretical women was call prohpetic.........Cocat do you even know the theology of prophesy?
Kieran on Sep. 01, 2009, You
Kieran on Sep. 01, 2009,
You stated that 'People need to get over their egos and believe the Church"
By 'Church' you probably mean the Magisterium. But the Magisterium has lost its credibility. Considering all the sexual abusers who were moved from parish to parish---so that they could continue abusing kids. Considering that there are still dioceses (Bridgeport, CN) that want to hide their records on sexual abusing priest (and mostly because they want to spare their former bishop from shame). Considering that often our bishops write pastoral letters espousing one position and then, speak out of both ends of their mouths (ex. Justice and the right to unionize---but not if one works in the Church). And considering the blatant sexism displayed in the Church----
Who in their right mind would believe the official Church? The official Church needs a hospice. It is very, very ill!
Little Bear, You're confusing
Little Bear,
You're confusing two issues. The terrible child abuse scandals and the application of Canon Law doesn't fall under the umbrella of magisterium teaching. The Magisterium teaches on faith and morals, but the scandalous way the child abuse tragedies were handled falls under a different category.
We have to be clear on this, because it's crucial. The Church has never taught error in matters of faith and morals, as they pertain to the salvation of souls. We have been guided by the Holy Spirit, Who can't teach error. You should look closely at this and remember that although we are ALL sinners, including you, me, and anyone else, but the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and has guided the Church on this matter.
The Church, of course, is NOT sexist. Only people who are self-regarding, perhaps feminist, and have a low opinion of such critical spiritual virtues such as humility and obedience, would think such nonsense...
LittleBear, do you know that
LittleBear, do you know that most LCWR orders have REFUSED to release their records about abuse and cover-up and payoffs? I think by your logic this nun and all others have lost their credibility.
I couldn't agree even more.
I couldn't agree even more. The LCWR communities have done a great job covering up their abuse scandals. Only if people really knew the truth. Why do these progressive women always attack men. Get over it ladies and move on!
And this means that you're
And this means that you're saying that the LCWR orders are covering up what the traditional orders are exposing?
Anonymous on Sep. 03, 2009.
Anonymous on Sep. 03, 2009.
Check with VOFT and SNAP who deal directly with people who are accusing the "official church" of sexual abuse. Check with them and find out how many clients or persons that they deal with have accused women religous of sexual abuse.
I agree with you Kieran.
I agree with you Kieran. Intelligence and egos if not guarded properly can ditch people into the sewage.
So what if it sounds like
So what if it sounds like Protestantism? Are Catholics morally better than their adherents? Christianity is ultimately LIFE in accord with Jesus' Kingdom vision, not doctrines.
"According to the 66-year-old
"According to the 66-year-old Akers, the archbishop outlined two requirements during their meeting. First, that she remove her name from the ordination web site, a step she has since taken in an effort to defuse the “destructive assaults” against her. Secondly, that she publicly rescind her long-held stance supporting the ordination of women.
The latter is a step she cannot take. “To do so would go against my conscience,” said Akers"
What an astounding example of pride! For shame! She is convinced that her conscience is more well-formed than that of the Church, and should trump the teaching of her bishop who, let us admit, has not always been the firmest defender of orthodoxy. Why on earth should someone who does not believe what the Church teaches be allowed to teach impressionable children? Remarkable.
Sir, This is not an issue of
Sir, This is not an issue of pride, but rather one of integrity and human dignity for all people. That you confuse the expectations of the Bishop with Christian doctrine is sad to me.
The church has ALWAYS taught
The church has ALWAYS taught the primacy of conscience ...
The Church teaches the
The Church teaches the primacy of a well-formed conscience, and only of a well-formed conscience. A poorly-formed conscience, one formed around something other than Catholic principles, has no priority whatsoever.
In other words, a
In other words, a 'well-formed conscience' is only well-formed if it agrees with what someone else's conscience already decided?! Joseph heller would be proud of this ecclesial Catch-22.
Pace et bene!
This is absolutely incorrect.
This is absolutely incorrect. Yes, there is a responsibility to develop a well formed conscience, but the teaching has ever been that one has a moral obligation to follow one's conscience at every point of its development. Surprising, but true!
I am reminded by your comment
I am reminded by your comment that during Vatican II a minority group of Bishops tried to codify the statement that a well-formed conscience was one that agreed with or was in accord with church teaching. The majority rejected such a formulation as too rigid and kept what they had already stated in this matter. A well-formed conscience MAY by in error (well-formed does not mean without room for change or maturation; it reflects where a person is at this point, not where one will be tomorrow or was yesterday), but one is required by church teaching to act accordingly or one sins. Sister Louise has not only the right but the duty to disagree in conscience if that is where her own study, reflection and prayer has led her. She has this right and responsibility according to the church's own teaching.
By the way, one may act in accordance with church teaching and ALSO be VERY far from having a well-formed conscience. In fact, one may have never done anything at all to ensure the formation of their conscience if their philosophy is "do what the church says, believe what the church believes, no matter what"! Further, our church history is full of those who have dissented on this issue or that, acted in good conscience in doing so, and had the wisdom of their position validated down the line.
Primacy of conscience means just that: the place within us where the church cannot go (despite her capacity to inform), the place where God speaks, and we as individuals listen to him and determine what is right has primacy, ALWAYS. This is true even when the conscience judgment one makes is in error. Sister Louise will no doubt continue to form and inform her conscience on this matter, just as we all do, but she cannot act against conscience without sinning and I doubt you are suggesting she do that.
Hi Sister, I agree that Sr.
Hi Sister,
I agree that Sr. Louise must follow her conscience and so must every one of us, including the Archbishop. So she is following her conscience to dissent from definitive Church teaching and he is following his conscience to not affording her a Church forum to disseminate her anti-Church opinions. I guess that if you are saying that no one should condemn the Sister for following her conscience then no one should condemn the Archbishop for following his. Right?
Pax et Bonum
Yes, we believe in the
Yes, we believe in the primacy of a well formed conscience, but I have always understood that more as a principal that protects you from sinful culpability in an immediate situation when you cant make all the ethical and moral consultations and considerations, you trust your well formed conscience, and situations where you are struggling to grow into conformity with the teaching of the Church, like those who are slowly casting off practices like contraception and want to be good Catholics but are struggling to understand and buy into what they are obeying.
Clearly you didn't read the
Clearly you didn't read the article very well. She WASN'T saying this is church teaching, she was giving an informed opinion on justice in the church. This is just one portion of the injustices that women face in the world today. Former President Jimmy Carter did the same thing a few months ago when he declared that after 60 years in the Southern Baptist Church, he had to leave because of the continued injustice to women. He wrote a beautiful essay "The Age", discussing how in his life and travels he sees women marginalized and demoralized daily by churches AND cultures. If you want to become more informed, you should read it! Get your head out of the clouds!!!! Jesus befriended the samaritan, the tax collector, the prostitute......................why is that in this day and age, the church thinks they know everything, and we think the church knows everything? The church is made up of HUMANS, who are imperfect and like most politicians, have their own interests at heart. Has anyone stopped to think that these people whom churches are trying to silence, just MIGHT be the "voice of the Spirit"? It's really hard to hear the Spirit, if you are only listening for what you want to hear.
I googled but didn't come up
I googled but didn't come up with that essay. What's the link?
I went searching and found it
I went searching and found it at: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/losing-my-religion-for-equality-2009071...