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PDF versionAmerican Catholic Council to convene in Detroit in June
May. 02, 2011
Logo of the America Catholic Council
WASHINGTON -- The American Catholic Council, a reform group formed in Washington in September 2008, plans to hold its first national conference in Detroit June 10-12. The organization has already drawn fire from the hierarchy for parts of its platform.
Last October, Detroit Archbishop Allen H. Vigneron cautioned local Catholics not to attend the conference and ordered local parishes, schools and other Catholic institutions not to sponsor or host any of the preparatory listening sessions leading up to the conference.
In a media advisory, the archdiocese called the planned conference a “misguided effort” that proposes goals “largely in opposition to the teachings of the Second Vatican Council” and “distorts the true spirit of Vatican II.”
Among organizations that banded together to form the American Catholic Council are:
- Voice of the Faithful, an international lay organization started in Boston in the wake of the clergy sex abuse scandal in order to promote greater transparency and accountability in the church;
- FutureChurch, a Cleveland-based Catholic group, headed by St. Joseph Sr. Christine Schenk, that advocates expanding ordained ministry to women and married men;
- CORPUS, an organization of married priests seeking an end to mandatory celibacy for Catholic priests in the Latin church.
Featured speakers at the June gathering in Detroit are to include:
- Famed Swiss-born theologian Fr. Hans Küng, ecumenical professor emeritus at the University of Tübingen, Germany. Since 1979, Küng has been barred from teaching as a Catholic theologian. Advance notices say that depending on his health, he may address the group only by a pre-taped video.
- Sr. Joan Chittister, former prioress of the Benedictine Abbey of Erie, Pa., a noted author and an NCR columnist who has often criticized church positions on a wide range of issues.
- Anthony Padovano, a theologian, author, former priest and former CORPUS president, who has long advocated the abolition of mandatory celibacy in the Latin church and other changes in church practice.
- James Carroll, a Boston Globe columnist, former priest, and award-winning author whose 2009 book, Practicing Catholic, is sharply critical of the papacy of Benedict XVI.
- Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, daughter of Robert F. Kennedy and former lieutenant governor of Maryland.
- Jeannette Rodriguez, chair of theology and religious studies at Seattle University and author of several works on Hispanic theology. Rodriguez also serves on the NCR board of directors.
In preparatory work for the Detroit conference, the American Catholic Council has held numerous listening sessions around the country and has drafted a “Catholic Bill of Rights and Responsibilities.” It says in part that every Catholic has the right to:
NCR: February 17-March 1, 2012
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- “Develop an informed conscience and to act in accord with it.”
- “Participate in a faith community” and have “responsible pastoral care.”
- “Proclaim the Gospel and to respond to the community’s call to ministerial leadership.”
- “Freedom of expression and the freedom to dissent.”
- “A voice in the selection of leaders and in the manner in which governance and decision-making are exercised.”
- “Summon and speak in assemblies where diverse voices can be heard.”
“Church leaders,” it says, “shall respect the rights and responsibilities of the baptized and their faith communities.”
“One must not be told that one becomes a Catholic at the cost of being less an American,” the preamble to the Catholic Bill of Rights and Responsibilities says. “We cannot declare that fundamental rights have no place in the church of Christ.
“We often hear that the ‘church is not a democracy,’ ” it adds. “This is not true: Ecumenical councils, papal elections and the election of religious superiors occur regularly. The first ecumenical council in 325 [in Nicea] declared that no priest was validly ordained unless the community made the selection. Popes and bishops were chosen by the people at large. Fundamentally, Catholic doctrine maintains that the Spirit is given to all and that baptism makes every Catholic equal.”
On its Web site, americancatholiccouncil.org, the council describes itself as “a movement bringing together a network of individuals, organizations and communities to consider the state and future of our church.”
“We believe our church is at a turning point in its history,” it adds. “We recall the promise of the Second Vatican Council for a renaissance of the roles and responsibilities of all the baptized through a radically inclusive and engaged relationship between the church and the world. We respond to the spirit of Vatican II by summoning the baptized together to demonstrate our re-commitment.”
Among other presenters at the June gathering, to be held at Detroit’s Cobo Hall Convention Center, are Loretto Sr. Jeannine Gramick, a cofounder of New Ways Ministry and longtime advocate of fuller Catholic ministry to the gay-lesbian-bisexual-transsexual-questioning community; Leonard Swidler, professor of Catholic thought and interreligious dialogue at Temple University in Philadelphia and a founder of the Association for the Rights of Catholics in the Church; Diana Hayes, a leading African-American Catholic theologian; Jesuit Fr. James Hug and Dominican Sr. Maria Riley of Center of Concern, a Jesuit-founded social justice think tank; Barbara Blaine and David Clohessy, leaders of the Survivors’ Network of those Abused by Priests; and Jason Berry, whose NCR writings on clergy sexual abuse of minors have helped change the way the church approaches that issue.
For complete details, visit: americancatholiccouncil.org
[Jerry Filteau, NCR Washington correspondent, is covering the Detroit meeting. Watch NCRonline.org for updates.]
Related Stories
The reason why so many
The reason why so many organizations need to come together for such a conference is because their members are dying out. Their meetings look like AARP conferences. While they may quote many statistics about the Catholic church, they have no power or influence. They exist to appease aging baby-boomers. I say, let them have their fun. Soon they'll all be in a cemetary.
Hey sonny boy (or girl) show
Hey sonny boy (or girl) show some gawl darn respect fer yer elders. Ya should hope ya live long enough to join the AARP!
What a viciously hate-filled
What a viciously hate-filled posting!!! Remember, you will be in the cemetery soon enough yourself
Amazing to read so many
Amazing to read so many antagonistic and bitter comments from pe,pole who like to call themselves Cristians. This conference is trying to return us to the true message of Jeses and away firm the dark pit of clericalism God help us when these aging pele who are true, and faithful followers are no longer with us to prod our consciences!
They don't call themselves
They don't call themselves Christian. They call themselves faithful Catholics. Big difference.
I am a _Christian_. First and
I am a _Christian_. First and foremost.
I am a Catholic.
I am a faithful woman.
Perhaps it's a trinitarian concept, but those of us who would go to the conference believe in the fulfillment of Vatican II and find no separation in our person.
It's a shame and too bad that you would belittle us.
"true and faithful followers"
"true and faithful followers" of Christ's Church would not oppose the Church's position on homosexual "marriage," which New Ways Ministry does oppose.
The problem with many of these activist organizations is that they represent composite causes, which most faithful Catholics cannot get behind. Instead, they should focus on one theme at a time, because otherwise they will find their recruits to be few.
Sounds like a true Roman
Sounds like a true Roman Catholic response!!! I trust Benedict approved your message before you sent it.
"DON'T YOU WISH", Anonymous.
"DON'T YOU WISH", Anonymous. Too bad you didn't have one of those
"disgruntled nuns" teach you how to spell cemetery "c-e-m-e-t-e-r-y",
cemetery...now use it in a sentence and you will never misspell it
again...
If I couldn't spell the word
If I couldn't spell the word 'cemetery', I think I'd want to remain "Anonymous", too!
There are good reasons for
There are good reasons for deficient spelling aptitude, perhaps the first one being not one's "first", colloquial language.
Wow, I'll have to let my kids
Wow, I'll have to let my kids in their 20s who are attending the conference know that you think they're about to die. My sister and I in our 40s are going too. Thanks for explaining our life expectancy to us as well. However, I must say I hope you are wrong labeling us all as near-term cemetary fodder. All kidding aside, I will ask you to not speak disrespectfully of the aged. You seem to marginalize the opinions, feelings and wisdom of the elderly. That is tragically unChrist-like.
You write, "they have no
You write, "they have no power or influence...I say, let them have their fun. Soon they'll all be in a cemetary." I would guess some Pharisees felt exactly the same about Jesus and his followers.
In this USA NONE of the
In this USA NONE of the faithful have any influence, or decision making power whatsoever. Parish council and review boards are sheer window dressing for the hierarchy. The laity are to pay, pray and obey. It is disgusting that ALL the decision making power is in the hands of a few men who have proven totally untrustworthy, and criminal in too many instances.
The laity absolutely need to take control over all the church assets. If it can be done in Switzerland for hundreds of years, it can be done here. Never mind CANON LAW. Those are laws of a foreign power, which are not applying in this nation. Lets hope, all our criminal bishops are going to their just reward sometime soon.
Anonymous, you will be in the
Anonymous, you will be in the cemetery too, perhaps not soon enough?
I just got back from Tuesday
I just got back from Tuesday morning Mass. Other than the two altar servers and me (who will attend the ACC) every other person attending a.m. Mass was eligible for AARP. This is the case almost every morning for Mass. Therefore, please clarify the point of your age demographic statement.
Boy, isn't that the truth.
Boy, isn't that the truth. The list of speakers reads like a list of has-beens and never-weres and never-will-bes.
Cardinal George was absolutely correct when he said that progressivism/liberalism is not life-giving at all.
Have all you name-callers
Have all you name-callers never heard the saying, "Sticks & stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me." If the only weapon you have in your arsenol is ridicule, give up. We cemetery-bound are thrilled to contribute to future life by attending and "greasing the skids" for young 'uns to attend this celebration of the spirit of Vatican II, thus keeping it alive in zest & creativity. I'm amazed, frankly, at the parallel nature of the statement of Rights & Responsibilities for baptized catholics and the earlier 2011 proclamation of over 300 German-speaking theologians (some of whom, I presume are not gray-hairs). It seems to me this is no small, lifeless group but a movement with international and growing force - Cardinal George's alleged pronouncement notwithstanding.
Dear ANONYMOUS, I feel sorry
Dear ANONYMOUS,
I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't have the courage to sign their name to their beliefs. In contrast, all the gifted speakers in the
Detroit Conference are happy to have their names associated
with their beliefs. Kudos to them for continuing the teachings
of VATICAN II.
Peace to you & your loved ones,
John Sheehan
It is, I think, rather
It is, I think, rather telling that your strongest criticism of the reform movement is not about issues, but a head on ad hominem attack.
No arrows in thy quiver, eh?
I converted to Catholicism
I converted to Catholicism immediately after high school (1968). Yes, that does qualify me to be one of those "aging baby-boomers". (By the way, I am not planning on dying in the immediate future.....but it will happen to all of us....even YOU!) Anyway, had I known people like you at the time I was considering converting, I NEVER would have made that decision. I was drawn to the Church by the people I knew whose lives seemed to be an example of the life Jesus lived.
Over the line, perhaps, but
Over the line, perhaps, but there's more than a hint of truth to the anonymous comment above. People who rant and rave against Catholic teaching rarely pass on a love for the faith to their children. It may happen occasionally, but it's rare. Just look at religious orders with robust growth and seminaries that are full to see the direction the Church is headed. If that doesn't make the attendees of this conference wet their diapers, nothing will.
Round up the usual suspects
Round up the usual suspects for the latest AmChurch gathering.
AGING DISSIDENTS This is a
AGING DISSIDENTS
This is a veritable rogue's gallery of has-beens, of ex-priests, of disgruntled nuns like Sr. Jeannine Gramick and Sr. Joan, "a noted author and an NCR columnist who has often criticized church positions on a wide range of issues," as well as the garden variety of aging dissidents like the ubiquitous Hans Kung, all still living nostalgically in the glory days of post-Vatican II euphoria. God help us!
With age comes wisdom and
With age comes wisdom and these people have a lifetime experience from which the young and enthusiastic but still immature can learn much,
Yes PMR, they told my
Yes PMR, they told my generation the same thing, but I'm not sure how many listened. For many it seems to be part of the process of the up-and-comming generation; to have hostility towards the one that proceeded it and think they have all of the answers. Someone once said "when I was 20 I didn't care what the world though of me. When I was 50 I finally realized that the world wasn't thinking about me at all". I very much like being where I am and 50 is in the rear view mirror.
"a veritable rogue's gallery
"a veritable rogue's gallery of has-beens, of ex-priests, of disgruntled nuns"
Right on, Alex! A glance at those supporting this gathering shows how fully justified Abp. Vigneron was in warning people against any participation. What this crowd wants is the agenda of "reforms" which has taken the mainline Protestant churches in this country straight down the tube.
Presbyter felix on May. 02,
Presbyter felix on May. 02, 2011.
You stated:
("a veritable rogue's gallery of has-beens, of ex-priests, of disgruntled nuns"
Right on, Alex! A glance at those supporting this gathering shows how fully justified Abp. Vigneron was in warning people against any participation. What this crowd wants is the agenda of "reforms" which has taken the mainline Protestant churches in this country straight down the tube.)
----------------------------------------------
Since the pontificate of JP II and now with Benedict---the Catholic Church has been going down the tubes, just like you stated the mainline Protestant churches are. If it wasn't for the Hispanic population in America----the Catholic Church in America would be barely a notch above cult level.
The reforms the ACC wants are pretty much what Christians had in the early communities. The Apostles preached in the streets and healed the sick and crippled. And the 'Meal' was celebrated in their homes (most of the presiders were women).
And as Americans, people have the right to meet, to talk about their Church, to make decisions about what they want to do within their Church. The clergy and hierarchy only make up 4% of the population of the Universal Church. The other 96% need to have much more of a say in what goes on in the Church.
There is nothing sacred about the Vatican's absolute monarchy---that operates more and more like a dictatorship each year.
Little Bear, I won't try to
Little Bear, I won't try to add to the arguement, just wonder where the 4% figure for clergy and hierarchy comes from?? There must be an awful lot of them hiding somewhere -- or the remaining Church is smaller than even I thought.
A second thought. I enjoyed the Garry Wills recount of the quote of Isaac Hecker (I think) "Because I am a Catholic, I am a better American. Because I am an American, I am a better Catholic!" Something to please and offend everyone. How's Hecker's beatification going?
A third, discouraging thought. I find myself reading the comments columns for NCR more for the outlandish fury in some than for any real expectation of finding reasonable counterpoint. I'm afraid that our real problem is not that anyone's being led astray by either reactionaries or heretics. It's just that voices have gotten so channeled that many have just stopped bothering to listen. In the 60's (and I was in my mid to late 20's) I used to laugh and roll on the floor at some of the hyperbole screamed across whatever media was available. Now I listen to the (primarily absurd, opposite) viewpoints pitched just as shrilly. It used to be funny; it just gets old. A third of 'cradle Catholics' leave? Most before their 24th birthday? Some where, some how, slow up.
Little Bear, I won't try to
Little Bear, I won't try to add to the arguement, just wonder where the 4% figure for clergy and hierarchy comes from?? There must be an awful lot of them hiding somewhere -- or the remaining Church is smaller than even I thought.
A second thought. I enjoyed the Garry Wills recount of the quote of Isaac Hecker (I think) "Because I am a Catholic, I am a better American. Because I am an American, I am a better Catholic!" Something to please and offend everyone. How's Hecker's beatification going?
A third, discouraging thought. I find myself reading the comments columns for NCR more for the outlandish fury in some than for any real expectation of finding reasonable counterpoint. I'm afraid that our real problem is not that anyone's being led astray by either reactionaries or heretics. It's just that voices have gotten so channeled that many have just stopped bothering to listen. In the 60's (and I was in my mid to late 20's) I used to laugh and roll on the floor at some of the hyperbole screamed across whatever media was available. Now I listen to the (primarily absurd, opposite) viewpoints pitched just as shrilly. It used to be funny; it just gets old. A third of 'cradle Catholics' leave? Most before their 24th birthday? Some where, some how, slow up.
Right, and your orthodoxy has
Right, and your orthodoxy has Catholic parishes over flowing with youth. In case you haven't noticed, all mainstream religions are going down the tubes and none of them are asking the hard questions as to why this is so.
Correct. All Christian
Correct. All Christian denominations are taking the hit, not just Catholics. What we have been doing, which was pandering to the culture, obviously doesn't work. We have to present the alternative to the culture. And expect that only those who are looking for the alternative seriously will show up. That's the future of the church in the next era.
We have expected the
We have expected the anonymous whinings above. These anonymous frightened posters actually think their anonymous words have some effect. Hasn't it dawned on them yet that just because the Vatican curia slugs count/act on anonymous complaints, real Americans don't give anonymous posts a 'rat's ass'.
I pray that God does help us.
I pray that God does help us. Your characterization of the conference's crowd is quite interesting given that I will be attending in a party of five people, two of whom are in their early twenties and two of whom are in their forties. None of us are ex-priests; we're all women. None of us are nuns; we're all lay people. We are seekers, just like I hope you are. Perhaps you and your friends follow aging men that live in the nostalgia of post-Council-of-Trent euphoria. Many people who embrace nostalgia from the pre-Vatican II days never experienced it and long for "good old days" they never knew. One premise of the American Catholic Council is to examine the broken governance of the church which allows things like pedophiles and pedophile enablers to operate with impunity. Will there be dissidents in attendance? I guess it depends upon how you classify "dissident". But, there was a really famous dissenter in his day who went by the name Jesus and he went toe-to-toe with religious leaders in his day. He told the apostles they weren't to "lord it over" others, yet the current pope and several members of the hierarchy seem to "lord it over". Jesus instructed the apostles not to carry a spare tunic, yet most apostles are fashionistas with their vestments while people in their midst have financial needs. Many people such as myself with an advanced theology degree are very concerned that present-day apostles seem to emphasize that which Jesus never said whilst forgetting many things he did say. Finally, as with one of the other posts, I will ask you to not marginalize the elderly. You seem to suggest that they are not valued members of the church. That is very unChrist-like.
Thank you for this
Thank you for this intelligent and (considering the general tone of the on-going diatribes) relatively gentle response. I'm glad that you are attending this conference & hope I will be able to also be present.
Yes, Alex. All the "usual
Yes, Alex. All the "usual suspects" will be there & I only wish I could attend! I'm proud to count these
true defenders of our faith among the people whom I most admire in the Church. May God bless them all
& their vocations.
Alex, you will have to answer
Alex, you will have to answer for your part in driving away the people from the church. It seems you do not believe in an after life, do you??
The aging dissidents are the ones, who are still fill the pews, and who will reap their just reward for being faithful to the gospel. Millions of the young are not even bothering anymore. The stench of corruption among the church officials is unacceptable to them.
Sorry, Alex, that you see us
Sorry, Alex, that you see us in this kind of light! Vatican 2 opened some windows, & we still think there is some fresh air & ideas out there, longing to enter our Church, to join the Holy Spirit. Incidentally, if you adhere to truly "Catholic" teaching, you would know that "once a priest, always a priest"! There are no "ex-priests"! And your prejudicial judgment of "disgruntled" hardly fits people like Jeannine Gramick & Joan Chittister. Yes, some of us are (perennially!) aging, & some (our hope) are young. We believe the Holy Spirit is with us - we are God's Holy People, & we pray our voices be heard. The Church that fails to hear us is poorer for all that.
Alex, Have you noticed that
Alex, Have you noticed that the Vatican itself is full of grey hairs and seriously aging pre boomers? I never understand why this ageism taunt doesn't apply to Benedict and his Vatican cronies. Maybe it's because true believers can't see the truth--the vast majority of the Church is old and the youth are not buying into the message of either group of grey hairs.
Thank you colcoch1. You
Thank you colcoch1. You expressed my thoughts exactly.
I think people could make
I think people could make better use of their time helping the Church carry out its mission at a nearby soup kitchen, thrift store, in their parish, at a Senior Center, and leave those wiser than us deal with the big picture. The time and effort going into ACC could certainly be better spent closer to home than going to Detroit in June.
Hope they film it...better
Hope they film it...better than old episodes of the Benny Hill show!Hee Hee
Is one of the guest speakers
Is one of the guest speakers a priest wearing a dress?
No, there won't be any
No, there won't be any Tridentine Rite clown priests w/ their fiddle back chasubles, swinging maniples and 40 foot magna cappas!
No, Raymond Burke was not
No, Raymond Burke was not available.....
Comments so far sound like
Comments so far sound like the Republican base of the U.S. Catholic Church. I wonder if they also like tax cuts for the rich, exporting jobs. and stealing away Social Security and Medicare? I guess I'm one of the disgruntled ex-priests and has-beens...but I would be proud to be numbered in the group mentioned in the article.
You know it is possible to be
You know it is possible to be an orthodox, faithful and "conservative" Catholic and not be a Republican? And, you know it's possible to be an orthodox, faithful and "conservative" Catholic and be a Republican.
Be that as it may, since you brought it up...I am both a faithful and "conservative" Catholic and a Republican.
I believe in cutting taxes for everyone, rich and middle class alike (the poor don't pay taxes, so there is nothing to cut). I believe everyone has a moral right to keep as much of his just earnings as he can, without the government stealing from him in order to give to the poor. Rather, it is the responsibility of the individual to care for the poor as he is able.
I believe in free trade and open borders, not exporting jobs, but insuring that everyone has jobs because the freedom to trade across all borders creates the need for more product and more labor.
I believe in the individual taking responsibility for his own retirement and his own medical coverage. I believe in making Social Security voluntary for all workers under the age of 50 and in eliminating the current FICA cap on income over $106,800 for those who choose to be covered by Social Security. For those who choose not to be covered by Social Security, they will not be taxed for FICA and their employers will not have to pay anything in for them. I also believe that Medicare should exist for those who really need it, for everyone else, they should be responsible for their own medical coverage.
Finally, I am proud not be numbered in the group of dissenters that will make up this little and loud conference.
Remember, the republicans
Remember, the republicans once characterized the democratic party as the party of "Rum, Romanism and Rebellion." There is a deep strain of anti-catholicism (and bigotry in general) that underlies right-wing republican thinking and you can be sure it will become active again as soon as expedient. Well, it is already happening with their responses to Latin American immigration.
"The poor don't pay taxes."
"The poor don't pay taxes." Ah, yes, another Republican up to date on the market and profit margins, but totally unaware of how many millions of Americans live. Have you not heard of sales taxes that are imposed on everyone, rich and poor alike? In many states, sales taxes are applied to purchases of bread, milk and the necessities of life, but not to houses or vacation cabins.
Have you not heard of property taxes? Do you think the landlord pays these for tenants? Is it not the case that the landlord simply passes these on to the tenants who pay them, but often don't have the chance to deduct them on their Schedule A.
Have you not heard of taxes to register the car that the poor person must take to work (did you know that the majority of poor people actually are employed full time)? How about the Republican version of taxes, they call "user fees?" Want to cross a bridge? Pay a toll. Want to take the expressway to and from work? Pay a toll. Want to take the family out of the urban core and enjoy nature in a park? Pay a fee. Want to get married? Pay a fee. Need a drivers license? Pay a fee.
Now, personally, I don't think we pay enough in taxes. That's why we fight about whether to cut medical care or school support first. But, if you are going to talk about taxes, please get your facts right first. The notion that poor people don't pay taxes is simply another Republican ploy repeated often and in a loud voice. At some point, it becomes truth. Like the weapons of mass destruction that we all know are there, but we can't find.
You definitely are one of
You definitely are one of those Republicans who has the means to retire comfortably and pay for your own health services. Either you inherited a fortunate, or you got the financial security by gaining it on the back of 90 percent of the wage earners. Those 90 percent will never be able to afford to retire nor to pay for a minimum necessary medical services, nor--God forbid--emergency care to save the life of a family member because they were not paid living wages the past 50 years, so that you rich can get richer, and the corrupt corporations are able to get thousand fold profit.
You are one of those unchristian hypocrites, who want the majority of people back into slavery. How can you reconcile this with the teachings of Jesus??
I respect you "orthodox"
I respect you "orthodox" position CWG. But it might enhance your conservative Catholicism to spend some time reading the Gospels and St. Paul's genuine epistles. Sit down and see if you can reconcile your positions with these scriptures...or for that matter any papal encyclicals. At the Eucharistic Celebration on Pentecost for the "little/loud conference" I will suggest we pray that all of us Catholics, despite our deep differences, work toward unity in Christ.
George McCartin
Priest/Lawyer
When I look at the rogues'
When I look at the rogues' gallery of ontologically favored ecclesiastical septuagenarians who "lead" the church now, the folks coming to this gathering will at least be forward-thinking as opposed to devoted to preserving their power, autocracy and really nice duds and perqs.
What is Vigneron afraid of: that he'll get the reputation of allowing "dissidents" to meet in his fiefdom and he won't get his cardinalate out of his bowing and scraping? Clue, Allen: Detroit is last century's church and you aren't going to get what you think you deserve. You burdened Oakland with a huge debt for the new cathedral building then skipped town and let your successor figure out how to pay for it. Well, stew in your also-ran juices in The Motor City. Have a nice retirement!
He's got his own mess in
He's got his own mess in Detroit since his Cardinal predecessor stuck the archdiocese with 40 million in loans to pay for the JPII museum in Washington DC--the very building which can't support itself, and no one else wants. At least Oakland got a Cathedral in Oaklans, Detroit got a museum in Washington DC.
With age comes wisdom in the
With age comes wisdom in the cases of those cited in the first few postings above. God bless the brave, wise people of faith who will raise their voices in solidarity with Jesus, the Head of the Church!
Dissidents are not dying out
Dissidents are not dying out but many can no longer accept the way attempts are made to manipulate their conciences. No doubt you have heard theology being described as 'faith seeking understanding'and it is out of a deep faith grounded in a life dedicated to trying to live out the call of Jesus to love God with their whole heart and soul and to love their neighbour as themselves that most dissidents feel called to speak out. I sometimes feel that many of those still left in the church feel that past attempts to understand their faith in the entirely different world of the past should be set in stone and only these rules and regulations from Rome should be the starting point for faith. Qwestioning is not a wicked thing - it is through the examination of our beliefs and with our hearts open to the Word of God that our understanding of God and his creation grows and deepens.
I do happen to be old, and
I do happen to be old, and living with a terminal incurable disease. Hence I am anxious about approaching the end while still willingly belonging to an organization which I know to be evil and corrupt. It is the good people at the local level who give me reason to stay in.
I am not an organizer of the
I am not an organizer of the ACC, but would not miss this gathering for anything.
With the Vatican II reforms being dismantled by the hierarchy put into place by the last pope, the abuses by the clergy becoming more outrageous by the month, and the skyrocketing numbers of Catholics no longer able in good conscience to put up with a Church that has become a flat-earth society in much of its dogma and sexist mentality -- the American Catholic Council is a sign that the Holy Spirit is alive and calling again for reform.
There were times when elders were not so easily dismissed, but respected for their life experience and insight. I would rather be a part of the (most but not all) grey hairs who are meeting in this Council than follow blindly those who cannot or will not see that the Church is in trouble. And, despite the negative posts below, the people presenting at the Council are world-respected first-class theologians and reformers.
To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, this is an invitation to come and think critically, worship joyfully and lovingly offer course correction to our Church. If you are uncertain as to whether the Spirit is calling for change and reform, why not come and find out for yourself?
With the long list of
With the long list of injurious acts by the hierarchy from the cover-up by bishops in the sexual abuse scandal to the recent firing of Bishop Morris of Australia and the excommunication of Father Roy Bourgeois, and all the crap we've been handed in between, we truly need a forum to implement and execute a voice that is finally heard all the way to the Vatican! Our church is dysfunctional. The medieval structure based on royalty and serfs has to go. Dissent is NOT sinful. To have an opinion is NOT sinful. To have an informed conscience is NOT sinful. Some of the changes in the church have been brought about by saints who have changed the church because they loved it; for example, St. Catherine of Siena! Alex (I wonder why he doesn't give his whole name!) lists some of the brightest minds in Catholicism today; they are NOT has-beens! They are faithful, committed persons who are trying mightily to live the Gospel. Yes, God help us! Jesus must be weeping again at what his simple message of love, acceptance, inclusion, and service has become.
(Mrs.) Mary Jean Smith, Retired Pastoral Associate, Chetek, WI
I am heartened by the fact
I am heartened by the fact that men and women of such stature and such sincere faith are coming together at this Conference. WHY are the institutional church and the Vatican so terrified of this kind of dialogue?? WHY should prayful questioning...held in an open forum....be considered anathema. These theologians,journalists, educators,and religious do not walk on cloven hooves, dragging a forked tail!!! (However much the church would like to so portray them!) They are decent, intelligent men and women whose devotion to God and their fellow man is transcendant. They stick their necks out KNOWING they will attract Vatican abuse, but they persist because conscience demands it of them.
I favor a few of the reforms they embrace, but not all. But even if NO PART of their agenda struck a chord with me, I would not be scared or intimidated at the prospect of listening to other voices, other views. And I certainly wouldn't attempt to stifle their voices.
Archbishop Vigneron's dire warnings to catholics to not attend the sessions can be translated thusly: Do not think!...the church will do all your thinking for you!
Did those who are trying to
Did those who are trying to disregard the " Aging Dissendents" ever hear the wisdom in this statement" " With Age
Comes Wisdom!" ? I think the presenters certainly have those credentials far beyond the old white men who call themselves Bishops of the church and hide sexual abuse priest-nun criminals across the world;
claim to be PRO-LIFE but put money behind far right politicans who oppose access to health care --even for the young-and would deny a mother in Texas life life saving surgical treatment; who support the rape of a nine year old in South America when she became pregnant and stood to loose her life --and worse-- deny Holy Communion to a young child in Texas because he has a disability? ( www.disabilityscoop.com) Now what about this American Catholic Council who wishes to recover the church and invite it's members to live in truth and with compassion; to make the church as Christ would wish--INCLUSIVE? Gee, that is novel? But that would be too much for those who do put down the American
Council. Wow--they are afraid of REAL change happening in the church. Message to those far right extremists: Go join your extremist fundamentalists buddies and get out of the Roman Catholic Church. Stop destroying it in the name of Christ! God bless the American Catholic Council. I hope you can reclaim Christ's church and stop the bleeding of
Catholics leaving a TRUE Catholic community you support and encourage to grow. God bless you.
I don't think age-related
I don't think age-related comments are helpful, but it does seem to be the same speakers speaking to the same audience. The Spirit of Vatican II seems to have had a very small second generation and no third to speak of.
Why is that?
That is because of almost 30
That is because of almost 30 years of a pope who was trying to get rid of the effects of Vatican II followed by his scriptwriter --
That doesn't seem likely at
That doesn't seem likely at all. It would seem much more likely that those supportive of the values professed by the Detroit meeting would be the least likely to be collapse before the actions of Church leadership.
Put another way, children generally tend to absorb the value systems of their parents. Sure, they may rebel for a time. Some even reject the values entirely in certain cases. But that's not the way to bet it.
So, again, where are the spiritual grandchildren of Kung, Padovano, Chittister, Carroll?
The concervative Trent
The concervative Trent generation is the off spring of the open Vatican 2 generation. Children may absorb parental values, but they often reject them, espcially if they are intelligent, educated, and can think critically. In the next generation, when the Trent church is not the perfect Eden, the youth will probably long for the resurgence of the Vatican 2 Church.
That's genuinely interesting,
That's genuinely interesting, and there may be something to that. I remember a saying about politics that says something like "Every generation of young allies with Grandpa." Certainly should be food for thought for the conservative generation.
But that prompts a follow-up: why did "Trent" reject their parents?
And where are the spiritual
And where are the spiritual grandchildren of JPII and B16?
In Poland, Mass attendance is down 40%, they can't even agree to allow a cross to be erected in a public square
AND Poland has the HIGHEST ABORTION RATE in Eastern Europe.
To quote one young Pole:
Why should I give up the chains of communism for the chains of John Paul II?
While I am interested in the
While I am interested in the situation in Europe, your response is a red herring that doesn't address my question. The cultural dynamics in Europe are considerably different, and someone could play the "gotcha!" game by asking the same questions about Daneels in Belgium or Martini in Milan. Neither of which is relevant to the American phenomenon.
Not quite, Poland is the land
Not quite, Poland is the land of the now Blessed JPII who helped overthrow communism in THEIR land. And if there was ever to be Catholic offspring of JPII it would be in Poland but the Polish Catholic Church is in freefall. Neither Belgium or Milan produced JPII, only "conservative" Poland did and it is FAILING. No red herring here, only the truth.
As far as the "American phenomenon" maybe you should know that the JPII cultural center in DC is toast, closing due to lack of interest.
You don't have any insights
You don't have any insights into the lack of a third generation of progressive American Catholics. That's fine, but it would have saved a lot of time if you'd said so at the beginning.
Good day.
I was just in Poland for Holy
I was just in Poland for Holy Week. The churches were packed and there were long lines for confession all week. It was great. Obviously that young Pole does not understand JPII. If he would read Love and Responsibility he might understand. Most people see that and think it is a book about sex, well it's not. Its about true freedom, freedom to choose the good. Now how can he compare that with communism especially when he never lived under communistic rule.
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