The Independent News Source
NCR on Kindle - NCR classifieds - YouTube - Twitter - Facebook - Email Alerts - RSS
Printer-friendly version
PDF versionAbout that other shoe
Jul. 29, 2010
Some of the nearly 3,000 Muslims from around the United States gathered outside the U.S. Capitol Sept. 25, 2009, for "jummah," a congregation prayer held on Fridays. (CNS)
From Where I Stand
"I don't understand it," she said to me. "We're Americans, too. Why don't they see the good of what we're doing."
She was Daisy Khan, who with her husband Iman Faisal Khan are leaders in the movement to open the Cordoba Islamic Cultural Center in New York City.
I could see the disappointment, the frustration, in her eyes as she spoke. What can you say to anyone at a time like this? After all, does anybody ever really 'see' what anybody else sees?"
I've always called this column "From Where I Stand," for instance. The title is a kind of nod to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle which, given other forces in the universe, argues against the likelihood of knowing with precision where particles in space are at any given time -- just as it's difficult to know how other people think about things and why.
The title was also meant to recognize the feminists who pointed out to the world that the male agenda is at best only half of the world's agendas. As in, none of us have the whole truth.
It honors, too, humanists who discovered the Power of One -- the notion that the individual fully developed and fully alive is a significant agent in the shaping of the whole of society.
And, finally, the title is, to me at least, an underscoring of the role of conscience in society, the responsibility of us all to take conscious moral stands rather than allow any institution, political party, culture, or system to decide them for us.
This understanding of multiple viewpoints seemed an easy enough concept to live by till this year when, in fact, it became all too clear for comfort.
The problem Daisy Khan raised for me in her poignant cry for understanding is a current one: Should American Muslims be allowed to build an Islamic mosque two blocks away from the site of the bombing of the World Trade Center Towers that killed over 3,000 people in one blow on Sept. 11, 2001?
Or better yet, How could it possibly be a problem that U.S. Muslims want to build a mosque two blocks away from the site of this greatest foreign attack on U.S. soil? Why is there such an outcry against what is designed to be a monument to peace and reconciliation at a place where the terror of a few had set out to destroy both. After all, they are Americans. Can't they build wherever they want?
Unfortunately, the world has been here before on this one.
In 1984, in Poland, Catholic nuns and bishops were determined to open a Carmelite convent on land proper to what had been the infamous Auschwitz death camp where Jews by the thousands had gone to the ovens at the hands of a gentile army, most of whom were ostensibly Christian. (NYT, May 30, 1989)
Preview NCR's Family Life Issue
Watch this video from NCR Editor Dennis Coday for highlights from our annual Family Life special section.
You won't find these articles on our website. Subscribe now to receive all the content from each biweekly issue.
To the Jews, the very thought of a Catholic institution on that territory was blasphemy, a sacrilege. After all, they argued, Christianity and its long-standing position that the Jews -- as a people -- had killed Jesus, was of itself a preeminent and underlying cause of the Holocaust.
Jews were insulted at the very thought of a cross on those holy grounds. Christians were flabbergasted at the reaction. In the first place, the purpose of putting a cloistered community of Carmelites in that place was exactly to hallow that ground, to pray for those that died there, to be a sign of peace and reconciliation.
And, after all, half the people who died in the camps, they said, were Christians: Poles, Gypsies, and gays.
Jews were infuriated by the move. Catholics were enraged by the reaction to what they thought was a good thing to do for both groups.
It took years to resolve the issue. In the end historians determined that only 80,000 of those who died in Auschwitz were non-Jews. The other 1.2 million deaths were Jewish deaths. It was, indeed, a Jewish burial ground. And Catholics, led by the pope himself, agreed in 1993 to relocate the convent to a less offensive position in order to provide an education center meant to educate us all to the ways of peace and unity, to the issues in Christian-Jewish relations.
It was a case of Christians wanting to make what they considered a gesture of reconciliation that was seen from the other side of the issue as just one more sign of domination or aggression or assault.
The point is that we, of all people, should know what it means to be rebuffed by those who perceived our attempt to make peace as just another kind of wound.
This time, it is clear, the shoe is on the other foot. We are the ones now who could not bury our wounded, all of whom themselves went to ashes. We are the ones who are claiming the territory as ours alone -- or, in this case, for that part of us who are not Muslim, apparently.
And this time, it is a group of Muslims who have long borne the burden of the Crusades, the expulsion from Europe and the fear of Western/American annihilation -- true or not -- in their psyches, who want to make a gesture of real Islamic peace in the very area that radical Muslims chose to make war.
Cordoba House, the proposed Islamic cultural center and mosque at the tip of Manhattan, is designed to be a monument to American Muslim patriotism and peacefulness in the very area where foreign Muslims brought death to many and a threat to the country itself. It is meant to be a hand across the divides of race and religion, a grand statement of U.S. unity, not a reminder of our religious differences.
Named for the over 800 years of Islamic political ascendancy in Cordoba, Spain, a period of intellectual and economic and cultural growth the marks of which exist to this day, the Cordoba House mosque has become a centrifuge of tension. The negative reaction to such a center shocks these peaceful American Muslims, long-time citizens of this country, who find themselves torn between their citizenship and their ethnicity.
To some Americans who lived through the attack on the Twin Towers, who lost loved ones in the blaze, who saw their city go up in smoke, whose own lives changed because 19 terrorists unleashed by the far right minority of a radical wing of Islam -- not unlike the underground forces of the Irish Republican Army and Ulster Defense Force in Ireland -- the very thought of a Muslim presence in that place is unthinkable.
One respondent to a person-on-the-street interview declared with all the passion that fear can bring: "This mosque is nothing but a monument to their martyrs." Say again: Whose martyrs? They are certainly not the "martyrs" of these peace loving people -- anymore than the extremists of the IRA in Belfast were mine.
Radicals on any side may be well-meaning, perhaps, but miserably inhuman in their tactics. Sincere, perhaps, but just as surely dealing in sin as are their oppressors.
To Americans who can still remember another time when to be an American was lost in the hysteria of race, it has all the overtones of the anti-Japanese sentiments during and after World War II.
So, where do all of us stand now that the shoe is on the other foot? This time we are the ones wrestling with the question of whether or not we will refuse the olive branch and a public witness to unity and peace. Will we tell an American Muslim community that the country is theirs -- except, of course, for this one square of it two blocks away from Ground Zero which we will use to remind them always of how outside of us they really are?
From where I stand, there has to be another way to deal with this that is sensitive to both sides, accepting of both positions, healing of both wounds and a monument to real peace. In that case, it will surely be a monument that will shine a strong Islamic light in the very face of that small part of Islam that wants, it seems, to shatter that glow.
[Benedictine Sr. Joan Chittister writes a Web column for NCR called From Where I Stand.]
Hard to figure out what Joan
Hard to figure out what Joan is saying. Does she think there SHOULD have been a Carmelite convent at Auschwitz? Does she think there should NOT have been "anti-Japanese sentiments during and after World War II"?
I appreciated Sr. Joan's
I appreciated Sr. Joan's nuanced exploration of this topic. I don't think it is hard to figure out what she is saying, but the issue is hard.
Succinct!
Succinct!
Why shouldn't there be a
Why shouldn't there be a convent outside Auschwitz? Millions of Christian 'untermenschen' were exterminated by the Nazis?
There is a difference and I
There is a difference and I think it is significant; no Christian was killed by the Nazis simply for being a Christian. This is not true with the Jews. Also, I think it is important to remember that Gays and Lesbians were rounded up and put in concentration camps and killed simply for being Gay and Lesbians. As were the handicapped, the Gypsies and those who were Johovah's witness. Yes, the Christians who were sent to these camps and died should be remembered and honored, as it too is a horror. But the killings of Christians was because of something they did, not because of who they are.
I think that Sr. Joan is
I think that Sr. Joan is saying what Thomas Merton said about controversy in his life and times: "Acknowledged ignorance and hopeful insecurity are the two angels guarding our way." Contrary to what the zealots on the right and on the left would have us believe, there are many issues that seemingly have no answers. So, all believers in a higher power need to be open to the movement of the Spirit. Thank you Sr. Joan for this insight and bit of wisdom.
Maybe she has be very skilled
Maybe she has be very skilled in not telling you what to think considering her rather lengthy introduction.
She has led you to the water - now it is up to you if you drink.
"Where do YOU stand?"
I think that out of respect
I think that out of respect for what happened at that partucliar place the group should back off from the building a mosque on that particular site. No one is denying anyone's religious freedom. But in humility and even as a gesture of goodwill, they could and perhaps should back off from that particular site for the promotion of their particular faith. That would be the respectful thing to do given past unfortunate events for which they are not responsible.
But in telling them what THEY
But in telling them what THEY should do, out of respect for US, this is again a domination of the topic.
Sr. Joan failed to mention the fact that Cordova, Spain, was about the closest thing to religious tolerance we know of in the Middle Ages. All three groups -- Muslim Moors, Jews, and Christians -- lived in relative peace -- under a Moorish Caliph. How many Christians know that it was the Arab/ Muslim renaissance, during the European "Dark Ages," that preserved the learning of classic antiquity? That Christian theologians got their Aristotle from Spain? That Averroes is revered by Thomas Aquinas as "the Commentator" on the texts by Aristotle, the "Philosopher"? Even as the Crusaders were fighting them, Christian scholars were learning from the great figures of Islamic scholarship. "Cordova House" is a good name for what they want to construct near Ground Zero. If not there, where?
Another point I would like to see mentioned in regard to this: how many Muslims were killed on 9/11? I know there were some.
Are Catholics going to make the same mistake in their turn, that Protestants made about Catholics -- accuse them of being irretrievably un-American??? That, on principle, no Muslim could be a "good American"?
I would rather that white, Protestant, racist militias not be construed as mainstream Christianity (or as mainstream patriotism). Similarly, we should not take one form of violent, anti-American Islam as representative of the entire religion and its followers.
Perhaps WE should learn to accept what THEY, American Muslims, consider a sign of respect for their combined heritage, as Americans and as Muslims. They didn't cause 9/11, but patient dialogue might go a long way toward making a 2nd one unnecessary.
You're deluded about Cordoba.
You're deluded about Cordoba.
Okay. Then explain what is
Okay. Then explain what is delusional.
Many thanks for making that
Many thanks for making that effective and succinct correction.
"Does she think there should
"Does she think there should NOT have been 'anti-Japanese sentiments during and after World War II'?"
In light of the questions you ask, I guess I can see why you think it is "hard to figure out what Joan is saying".
I'm not one to think I can speak for Sr. Chittister, so I'll speak for myself. Clearly anti-Japanese sentiment during and after WWII was understandable, but for that matter no less a failing within our Christian calling. Generalized prejudice is always wrong-headed. In the matter of anti-Japanese sentiment which gave rise to enormous injustices (thoroughly documented, by the way) against innocent people in this country who happened to be ethnic Japanese, to say nothing of the "Christian" hatred of innocent people of Japan throughout the period, many Americans fell prey to the insidious mistake of imagining that the national leadership of the home country was identical to the individual conscience of each and every ethnic Japanese person everywhere.
Which is why the analogy is so fruitful in the matter Sr. Chittister is addressing here. It is a superb piece of writing.
In preparing for my history
In preparing for my history classes at one of our local universities, I researched in depth the Japanese internment during WWII. What was the bottom line? An economic grab of the lucrative enterprises of hardworking Japanese in California, most of whom were American citizens. Why were there no similar actions taken against the Germans and the Italians? I respectfully suggest that you really dig into the research of the Japanese internment camps. They never had their lands and businesses returned to them, even as their sons fought with the Allies in the Italian/German campaigns in Europe.
Anonymous, this is in
Anonymous, this is in reference to your second question (I think a response to the first was obvious in Sr. Joan's article). In my opinion the words "anti-Japanese sentiments" shouldn't be linked to our "enemies in war". The very clear intent, it seems to me, is to connect "anti-Japanese sentiments" to the first part of the sentence in which Joan used "racism" as a way to describe U.S. actions toward the Japanese-AMERICANS in our country. They were uprooted from their homes,friends. They were stripped of all possessions and were made to live in concentration camps. Those of you who didn't live through most of the 20th century don't and can't remember how racism (coupled with fear) permeated much of the U.S. way of life. Anti-semitism percolated in our religious life and probably in our national, willing ignorance of the Nazi concentration camps with all that these entailed. White US citizens, still in the color-majority of the population, lived by anti-white policies and fear with regard to American Indians, black people, and people we labeled the Yellow Race. Some of these degenerated to dehumanizing attitudes with inhumane/inhuman results. Some of us can't forget these things. Sr. Joan lived through these times. This is the context of the statement, "anti-Japanese sentiments". It was not limited to being enemy in war. German-Americans weren't treated the same way as Japanese although their presence was feared in some places. Bottom line: we were really a racist society then and we still live by it in some ways. I understand this article by Sr. Joan very well. Paraphrasing St. Paul: "I find myself doing the evil I don't want to do and the good that I'd like to do I find myself avoiding/evading." To be honest, there's a bit of St. Paul in myself and in all of us, I think.
I agree. Joan is rambling
I agree. Joan is rambling here, offering nothing more than her own confusion about the subject. Let's defer to those who are hurting from the Sept. 11th attack. They do not want a mosque near the burial ground of their loved ones. Additionally, many Americans who have no prejudice against Muslims simply do not want a mosque near Ground Zero's sacred space. The first Amendment guarantees religious liberty, but it does not preclude common sense. Excepting far right extremists, Americans are not saying Muslims may not practice their faith and/or have houses of worship in the USA. We simply are saying that Muslims must find another place for their NY mosque, because the place they're looking at has too much pain and suffering associated with it that was caused by fanatics, who were Muslim, and the main perpetrator remains alive and hiding on the Pakistan/Afghanistan border. This is a painful cross. Enough!
I think it is very simple:
I think it is very simple: when Saudi Arabia allows churches to be built then we will allow the mosque. If this is meant to be a symbol of peace and religious tolerance, ask them to do the same. This is not meant to be petty but to reflect the reality of our world. This would make a lot of people on all sides of the issue see this as a real attempt to open a dialogue of peace.
Anonymous, I think you miss a
Anonymous, I think you miss a very important point of what it means to be both a Christian and an American. And that is that we are called to set the example. If we model our rules based on how we are treated, where is the Christian example, where is American exceptionalism? Christ clearly calls us to rise above and live according to God's rules, not meet the rules of some adversary.
Well said, John David.
Well said, John David.
Amen, John David. What does
Amen, John David. What does the building of churches in Saudi Arabia have to do with the United States? As Americans we all have the right to worship as we please...that is one of the rights that makes our country a beacon to the rest of the world. This fomenting of hatred toward Americans by Americans must stop. It is not what Jesus commanded of those of us who claim to follow His teachings and His path.
Peace and blessings.
Thank you ! That is exactly
Thank you ! That is exactly the point. This is why we do not engage in Premeptive Wars and Torture ! This is why we do not describe Foreign Aid as ' Money down a Rathole ' , but as a constructive initiative.
I read your post to mean that
I read your post to mean that these are the reasons why we "should not" engage in premeptive wars and torture. Because, unfortunately, we have and do.
Soft Shoe, You made some
Soft Shoe,
You made some great points. I totally agree. Unfortunately, the Repubs, the Cons, Neocons and Theocons, very clearly and very strongly do NOT agree. They are very much for preemptive wars. It is called the Cheney Doctrine or the one percent doctrine. The last two popes(JPII, B16) and other popes in the past are/were very much in alignment with that doctrine. Right Wing Repub Catholics(Buchanan, Weigel, Jeb Bush, Newt Gingrich, etc) also very much agree with the Cheney Doctrine.
BTW, until Reagan, I never knew those kinds of Catholics existed. Now, I still can't believe they can even call themselves Catholics or that the Vatican would allow them to call themselves Catholics. Now, I know that the reason the Vatican does not excommunicate them is because the Vatican is exactly the same way. Neither the Vatican nor the aforementioned are really about Pro-life and Family Values. That is how I know their is no such thing as Pro-life and Family Values. It's all about money and power and who is going to rule America(the super rich) and eventually who is going to rule the entire world, the American BIG Business Fascists. The very same people who rule the Catholic Latin countries.
The latest proof was the Scalia SCOTUS ruling this past January in the case of Citizens United v The Federal..., wherein the Corporations can donate unlimited amounts of money to political elections. This reverses almost 100 years of precedent and reveals Scalia and his SCOTUS to be the activist judges, that we always thought they were. From now, on the Repubs should win all elections. BTW,their defense is that trade unions can do the same thing. But they cannot, because unions do not have anywhere near that amount of money.
Finally, I knew this was not about Family Values when Reagan began attacking unions(Air Traffic Controllers Union and others, later) and working families shortly after he become prez, and the GOP has not stopped, even to this very day. Also just look at the anti family economic slavery that has always gone on in the Catholic Latin countries, ruled by the Vatican AND by BIG American Corporations.
Thanks for your thoughts. All the best--
bob
Exactly! Thank you for
Exactly! Thank you for saying so well what I was thinking.
Exactly! Thank you for
Exactly! Thank you for saying so well what I was thinking.
Exactly,John! Sr. Joan, is,
Exactly,John! Sr. Joan, is, I believe, bringing up the Carmelite convent story simply to show how peaceful gestures can be misconstrued. Understanding where the Carmelites were coming from, I originally thought that was a beautiful idea, but when I heard the Jewish response, I could understand where they were coming from,too. The problem with peace gestures, given by people who have been at odds with one another and perceived as the "enemy," is that they can seem like hostile gestures not peaceful ones. But is the Cordoba center such a bad thing really? It's not like Ben Ladin wanted to build a mosque in Manhattan near the scene of battle. These are Americans who want to build this as a gesture of solidarity and peace. Were there no American Muslims office workers, who were killed by their co-religionists on 9/11? How can we bring about peace in this world, if we don't heed the call of Christ, as John says, and deal with each other, according to God's rules.
AMEN! ... we cannot let this
AMEN! ... we cannot let this crazy hatred of all Muslims define who we are and what we do. Our country has used the World Trade canter attack to justify an attack on a sovereign nation and the killing of perhaps 100,000 or more civilians. This madness must stop.
I understand confusion, but
I understand confusion, but that's not the issue here. I say to you, ok, build the mosque on the site, let the survivors of those murdered by a few (?) Muslims do/think what? Forgive? Forget? Love the Muslims? I don't know how anyone could even expect forgiving, forgetting the act, and loving and understanding the Muslims simply because a Mosque now is SUPPOSED to mean those things.
As a nation we are bombarded daily by the media with all kinds of reasons not to trust them with the horrors of Jihad, suicide bombers, and good ol' Osama and his bad boys. How do we know, as a nation, that this Mosque is being built with 'good' money, represented by honest and sincere Muslims? We don't. Until their countries show tolerance for other religions, I would personally not trust even one Muslim entering that Mosque because I would wonder if that person is plotting, openly, and on/near the site they used to kill thousands of my countrymen! Healing takes time, it cannot be forced upon us with smiles and reassurances that the intent is pure of heart. Prove it. Put the Mosque someplace else and let the people heal in peace.
And if you say we can trust them, let us build a $100 million dollar Christian center in the middle of Baghdad. Do you wonder what the Muslims in general would say? If we are truly a better nation because of our tolerances and understanding, then let's prove it, but let's not be stupid in the process!
Just a reminder--we already
Just a reminder--we already do have Islamic centers.
We are reconciled with the
We are reconciled with the Japanese who attacked Pearl Harbor.
What would Jesus do? He forgave the one figure on the cross. Should any race be mistreated for something done in the past. We should treat everyone the way we want to be treated.
Build the mosque and use it as a tool to understand the Moslems.
1. Saudia Arabia did not
1. Saudia Arabia did not attack us on 911.
2. Punishing American Muslims for crimes committed by radical Muslims who were NOT American citizens is like punishing American Catholics for the IRA bombings.
3. Do we really want to lower our standards of tolerance for other faiths to that of monarchies and dictatorships? I think not.
The point this writer is trying to make is that we need to see Muslims as individuals. If we don't, our mentality is no better than that the 911 terrorists.
IRA??? BOMBINGS?! by the
IRA??? BOMBINGS?! by the IRA?!
ay, mother, do not go there . . .
let us arise now and go up to Bogside, to pray now for peace, and to establish within us a house of peace, by any name, a place for peace . . .
And may Seamus Heaney be with us!
Fifteen of the 19 9-11
Fifteen of the 19 9-11 killers were Saudis
You have missed the point, we
You have missed the point, we as Christians are called to be a witness to the world. We as Americans have in our constitution the guarantee to worship whatever religion we choose, as long as we do so peacefully. Building a mosque is not in itself violent therefore they should be able to build their mosque wherever they would like, we as Christians and Americans should open our hearts and minds and show them the love that we are called to, and to afford them the rights that we expect. Yes it would be nice for Saudi Arabia to allow Christians to build churches but you are being petty by making the comment that you did. The Catholic Church on far too many things recently has been the forced to do the right thing instead of being the ones to set the example, we need to remember more of what our founder said and ignore more of what the ego driven "princes" have said.
This has NOTHING to do with
This has NOTHING to do with Saudi Arabia! Islam is a religion, not a country, just as Christianity is a religion that does not hinge on what happens in the country of Christ's birth. The whole issue speaks to the failure of many Americans to realize that, as Barack Obama said, "Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, A Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers." This is our strength and our calling card, the thing that sets us apart, the very reason our nation was founded - so that ALL people should be equal, and should have religious freedom - guaranteed by our constitution.
If these people reach out in
If these people reach out in a gesture of peace and reconcilement, and in sorrow for what was done by extremists of their religion, it should be accepted with joy. It is the Christ thing to do.
The article written by Sister Joan is very good and evangelical.
Well said, Aquinas. Thank
Well said, Aquinas. Thank you.
And if everybody demands a
And if everybody demands a gesture from the other side before we will give one from our side, we will never get off the dime.
Not only will we never get
Not only will we never get off the dime, we'll never be Christians.
Doesn't someone have to allow
Doesn't someone have to allow the first building? Stubborn opposition will only increase stubborn opposition, maybe we need to open our minds and hearts to those with differing views in order to soften their radicalism as much as our own...if we say you do it first, it's like the kid in the playground who takes his ball home because he can't have his way. At some point we have to grow up and truly try to live the Jesus message of loving one another. Hard as it is....
What about establishing a
What about establishing a Benedictine convent in Mecca?
how about in america?
how about in america?
For a person who wants others
For a person who wants others to think he's a Benedictine monk, you know little about the order's convents. They're closing. Consolidating.
which is why for once we must
which is why for once we must build a truly BEnedictine house, of conversion and of hospitality, of healing and of prayer
like REgina Laudis was once founded to be.
For once? A nasty insult to
For once?
A nasty insult to the thousands of Benedictine women from dozens of monasteries who have served American Catholics for over 150 years.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=benedictine+sisters&aq=f&aqi=g1...
To dismiss their contributions while praising the only group that fits the EWTN notion of what makes a REAL nun is disrespectful and clueless.
Anonymous, Please relax. With
Anonymous, Please relax. With all due respect, I think you are overacting to the post. There would have to be much more said, before you can be certain of the "insult". Peace be with you.
Doesn't that call for a
Doesn't that call for a mosque in the Vatican?
If they want to build a
If they want to build a mosque on the grounds in the Vatican, I would support those against it, as I would if they wanted to build a mosque on the grounds of the former World Trade Center. But, if they wanted to build a mosque two blocks from the Vatican, I don't see that there's a problem. If you think there is one, please explain it to me.
These issues are difficult.
These issues are difficult. Are the Cordoba Cultural Center and the Carmelite convent intended to be emblems of sorrow, of signifying that the groups are sited here so that they do not forget the past and even assume some ownership of the past? Or are they the equivalent of peeing on someone else's tree trunk? So much of the interpretation depends on what people bring to the situation (on both sides), not what the mosque or convent is per se. When in considerable doubt, I say it's best to back off and try something or somewhere else. So the 1993 decision was a good one. Needless to say, the decision really must be made by the group proposing using the site, showing sensitivity. Then everyone needs to appreciate that gesture.
"And this time, it is a group
"And this time, it is a group of Muslims who have long borne the burden of the Crusades, the expulsion from Europe and the fear of Western/American annihilation -- true or not -- in their psyches, who want to make a gesture of real Islamic peace in the very area that radical Muslims chose to make war"
History lesson: Muslims invaded Spain and attempted to invade France. The historic Cordoba mosque was built by an Islamic army of occupation.
This should be included to balance the trendy lefty crusades and expulsion from Europe references. I support an Islamic center in Manhattan, just not so close to the site of the attacks.
Texas, go back and read the
Texas, go back and read the history, please.
Spain was a Muslim/Catholic/Jewish nation until the cruely and oppression of the Inquisition and Queen Isabela.
Spanish Muslims gave us learning, algebra, chess.
It was no occupation. It was home.
Until the Catholics exterminated the Muslim and the Jew.
Hey, and check out the Muslim Ottoman Empire in Austria sometime as well. They left the coffee, and the chess boards, and all we can produce is Ratzinger?
Texas, Because they(Muslims)
Texas,
Because they(Muslims) cannot(make peace), does that mean WE should not(make peace).
Retaliation begets more retaliation. Is that not the lesson of the Bush-Cheney-GOP cowboy diplomacy/retaliation? They may think they did a smack-down, but they really did everything they could to ensure that hate just continues on. Isn't that exactly what they were looking for, proved by their stated wish for another "Pearl Harbor Event". When it happens, and it will, will they, then, be satisfied! And further down the road, when they turn the world into a nu-ku-ler holocaust with no life, will they then be satisfied. Did we learn nothing from the last Holocaust???
Who has hated the Jews, and how well has that worked out? Who hated the Muslims, and how well has that worked out? Who hated the Protestants, and how well has that worked out? Who hated Blacks, and how well has that worked out?
That very attitude was at the core of how they treated not just ME Muslims, but also American Muslims, AND All Americans who are not worshipful believers in American exceptionalism(touted by JPII, Rev. Falwell and ST. Reagan and their "beacon on the hill") and their Trickle-down economics notions. Hitler also thought he and his Nazis were exceptional. Rove said they would abolish the Democrats. Now I vote only Dem. Hitler said the Third Reich would rule for a thousand years. Pius XI and XII agreed with him. How well did that work out???
Blessings. All the best to you and yours--
bob
Hey, Anonymous (not
Hey, Anonymous (not verified), Anonymous (not verified), and Anonymous (not verified), ever heard of reconciliation?
Sister Joan, thank you for
Sister Joan, thank you for you column, but I see this situation a bit differently. And I think it needs to be said; I just don't see any meat to the complaint. I tend to think of this as yet another toxic rattle by the Right to keep their followers in a constant state of indignation and phonny outrage (a form of control). I just get tire of it and feel that this tactic needs to be exposed.
Also, Several things need to be pointed out;
1)- Unlike the convent issue at Auschwitz, this mosque is not "on" the
grounds of the attack of 9/11. It is two blocks away.
2)- This is New York City; two blocks can be a different neighborhood.
3)- You pointed this out, but it bears repeating; this was done by a
radical fringe group and is not an honest reflection of American
Muslims. To promote otherwise is to break a commandment, as it is
bearing false witness. It is so easy for us to separate ourselves
from the fringe when it is on our side. Why are we so unwilling to
give the same to others?
I would call this much ado about nothing, but I think promoting intolerance and hate is something. And it is something of which we as Christians should be very sensitive. As followers of the Prince of Peace, we are called to resist any euphemisms or rationalizations that give us an excuse and comfort level with not loving our neighbors.
amen. And another point that
amen. And another point that is being overlooked; It is NOT a mosque. It is an Islamic cultural center that has a prayer room.
I agree that this is "yet
I agree that this is "yet another toxic rattle from the Right". It is also another issue of distraction from many more important issues. The strategy is to make a lot of noise to keep their followers in a constant state of agitation, which is, as you stated, a way of control.
What should or shouldn't be
What should or shouldn't be allowed at or in proximity to the place of any holocaust whether Auschwitz, the Twin Towers, or the port of departure for the African slave trade should be decided by the victims families or their representatives. As well intentioned and sincere as the Carmelite Order of Nuns and the Pope were, it obviously was offensive to the Jews. The same holds true in the case of the Twin Towers. I believe the majority of victims were Americans. Many families have fought with the developers who want to replace the Twin Towers as to what is appropriate to build at "Ground Zero" and that some part of it remain as a memorial for those who died in that place. As well intentioned and sincere as the building of this Islamic Center is, it isn't anymore appropriate than the building of a Carmelite convent at Auschwitz.
The rest of us have to find other ways of finding "common ground" and a way to live with our differences.
The mosque is to be built by
The mosque is to be built by American Muslims, correct? They are no more citizens of Saudi Arabia than American Catholics are citizens of the Vatican, which is a canard we had to deal with in earlier times. In 1941/42 Japanese Americans had to deal with the same illusion, that their first loyalty was to Japan.
It's much more a matter of
It's much more a matter of respect and good taste than of religious or civil freedom. Politeness. Civility. All of us refrain frequently from doing things we have a legal right to do because by doing them we would offend others.
Not a New Yorker, nor Muslem,
Not a New Yorker, nor Muslem, I can only think that I appreciate the sensitivities. There seems to be, or might have been, a simpler route. Respect the sensitivities and slowness of healing the depth of suspicion with the daily reminders of why. Work with Christian and Jewish organizations, churchs and synogogues; come to a mutual agreement to construct a monument, a place of peace, a sacred space, a shared space that makes a statement that compassion means compassion whatever the "book".
OK, so they are
OK, so they are flabbergasted. The Catholics ended up not building our convent in another's sacred place because the victims thought it inappropriate, likewise the moslems should end up not building their mosque for the same reason.
Over-simplification
Over-simplification accomplishes nothing.
The example of the convent-at-Auschwitz is just that: an example. New York is not Poland; Al-Qaeda is not Germany; and as others have noted, the proposed mosque site is only near, not on, the grounds of the twin towers. Furthermore, there is no monolithic block of "victims who (think) it inappropriate."
This is a complex matter and it requires cool heads who are willing to listen, empathize, and reason through it carefully.
Four Muslin men managed to
Four Muslin men managed to kill 3000 people, mostly Americans, in NYC on 9/11/2001. Nazi Germans killed 6 million Jews in World War II. We were at war with Germany and Japan. I have a brother in law whose parents are Japanese Americans. They were children during World War II and were incarcerated in America during the war with their families. They lost everything. They weren't guilty of anything except being Japanese. But they were also Americans. German Americans were not incarcerated. They're not as easy to profile as the Japanese were. Are we doing the same thing to Muslim Americans? Americans are all nationalities. We have good, peace loving Muslims who love America just like we do. They are no more responsible for 9/11 than my brother in law's family was for Pearl Harbor. To their credit, my brother in laws family are loving, good people who don't hold any ill will against America for how they were treated. I don't know if everyone else would have done that. What are we doing if we treat American Muslims with fear, distrust and hate. For some, they will not be able to remain peaceful and for some of that, we will be responsible.
I agree with your overall
I agree with your overall message but must offer a gentle correction. You write:
"German Americans were not incarcerated. They're not as easy to profile as the Japanese were."
Absolutely not true.
German Americans were indeed incarcerated, in internment camps, and for precisely the same reasons Japanese were (despite the fact that Germany didn't attack American soil). Here in Texas, many many German immigrant communities were full of people who had thick accents, and, in some cases, didn't speak English at all, even as late as the 40s; they paid a horribly high price for their Germanness, and continued to do so in the years after the war.
I only bring this up to offer further proof of the vexing (and often misguided) question of "Who owns an oppression?" I feel the same way about the Christian ministers, gypsies, disabled people, and homosexuals killed in the Holocaust: it's important to remember, at every step of the way, that they were there.
Again, your overall point is one that I agree with. But, if it's true that forgetting history is the first step toward repeating it, let's keep reminding ourselves of those German Americans who were imprisoned during those years.
bbbbarry, thank you for your
bbbbarry, thank you for your post. I have never heard of German Americans being rounded up and put in internment camps. Where can I find out more about this? Also, thank you for mentioning the other groups who were targeted by the Nazis. As much of a horror it was for the Jewish people it has always bothered me to hear of only them being victims of any extermination plans. Their numbers may have been as quite a bit more, but it was an equal horror for these other groups as well.
You made many great points on
You made many great points on your way to expressing your main point about American Muslims. Apropos of that, I have read that American Muslims are reporting to our FBI/CIA/Intel people about things they are aware of that might be dangerous to America. If we treat them the way Bush-Cheney-the GOP(Cons, Neocons and Theocons) treated them and us, we who do not agree with them, may just stop those Muslims from reporting their observations. So we should learn to be thankful to them, our fellow Americans; and to almost all of our fellow Americans.
But not to all Americans. As of the 2004 election I no longer vote for any Repubs. I cannot tolerate the endless hate coming from them. This began under St. Reagan, Pope John Paul II and Rev. Falwell, all of whom are/were part of the GOP hate machine.
Clearly, there are differences between us and them. Two fMRI--functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging-- studies, one done at Duke and another at another eastern university like the Univ. of VA, or possibly at Johns Hopkins. These studies revealed that there are two different kinds of people, those who lean conservative and those who lean liberal. Now given the behaviors of the GOP and their Religious Right, I believe that ne'er the twain shall meet, according to them!!!
Additionally, some studies done at the Univ. of Pennsylvania(Newburg, MD) reveal that there are two kinds of Christians/Catholics. Those who believe that God is a loving God(me, probably most of those on this site, but certainly NOT all) and those who believe that God is an authoritarian God of judgment, fire and brimstone. The latter would be those like the pope and his Right Wing fundie Catholics who are Repubs, including Scalia and his SCOTUS, and almost assuredly other Christians and Catholics like Sarah Palin, Jeb Bush and Newt Gingrich. Interestingly enough, they are almost all people whose ancestors come from the British Isles, Brits and Irish.
As a liberal, libertarian, Independent swing voter I know they have targeted me because my sense of pro-life demands they not kill, even for oil or for profits OR even for Theology. They hate that, being caught at their mindset that is riven with hypocrisy.
Many thanks for your thoughts and your post. All the best to you and yours--
bob
Bob-Are you not making some
Bob-Are you not making some angry and dare I say illiberal indictments? I am not aware of any claim to sainthood for the late Pres. Reagan. I do not know what your problem is with the late Pope JP II. As for the work MRI studies, to which you refer, interpretations of brain matter configuration to a specific persons' behavior or attitudes are highly speculative at best. Reminds me of people who try to make judgements of a persons behavoral patterns or IQ by the shape of their skull. Is this not close to racist comment? Even Father Kung states that Pope Benedict XVI's encyclycals are brilliant. Your comments are more of an indication of your own search for the truth. You seem to be saying I have found the holy grail and to the devil with anyone who dares to disagree. I would hate to live in your form of "illiberal" catholicism. I must go now because tomorrow morning I am attending pro-life mass and yes I do mean anti-abortion.
I don't understand why some
I don't understand why some say we shouldn't let an Islamic Cultural Center for Muslim Americans be built in America unless we can have a Catholic Church in some muslim country that won't allow us to build one. That hits me the same way when Bill Donahue of the Catholic League tries to say about clerical child molestation that other non-catholic religious do it too. HUH? That arguement of everyone else is doing it didn't work when I was growing up, or as a parent when I was raising my children. Two wrongs never made a right. IF as Americans we have freedom of religion then we don't restrict other Americans because another country with their religion restricts ours.
Poor Daisy. I feel badly for
Poor Daisy. I feel badly for someone who does not have the sensitivity to understand what building a islamic cultural center on the very site of the death thousands due to islamic fanatics does to the families of those who died. No one is saying that Islam is bad, but please, a little sensitivity for the families.
have you interviewed the
have you interviewed the families?
done a representative sampling of valid and reliable statistical research?
perhaps the families are the first to be invited to the Center, for peace, compassion, understanding . . .
and a little sensitivity . . .
closure
Post new comment