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Abolition of Legionaries should be 'on the table'
Baltimore archbishop welcomes Vatican probe of Maciel's order
Apr. 03, 2009
Archbishop Edwin O'Brien and Cardinal William H. Keeler at an April 2 prayer service. (CNS)
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PDF versionArchbishop Edwin O'Brien of Baltimore has emerged as one of the most outspoken critics of the Legionaries of Christ among the American bishops. In an interview with NCR in June 2008, O'Brien voiced frustration about what he saw as a lack of transparency and said he had decided to ask the Legionaries and their lay arm, Regnum Christi, to withdraw from his archdiocese, but stayed his hand at the request of the Vatican. He asked the Legionaries to provide a full accounting of all their activities in the archdiocese.
In February, O'Brien told his archdiocesan newspaper that in the wake of an admission by the Legionaries that their founder, Mexican Fr. Marcial Maciel Degollado, had engaged in grave misconduct, including fathering a child out of wedlock, the order must offer "full disclosure of [Maciel's] activities and those who are complicit in them, or knew of them, and of those who are still refusing to offer disclosure," adding that the finances of the order should also be opened to "objective scrutiny." Those comments came after O'Brien met in Rome with Maciel's successor as the superior of the Legionaries, Fr. Alvaro Corcuera.
O'Brien, who is generally considered a theological conservative, said in February that his objection to the Legionaries has nothing to do with their reputation for doctrinal orthodoxy and loyalty to the papacy. Instead, he said, the issue is "respect for human dignity for each of its members."
On March 29, the Legionaries revealed that the Vatican has decided to conduct an apostolic visitation of the embattled order. In his first interview since that announcement, O'Brien outlined his perspective on the investigation. He brings personal experience to the subject, since O'Brien was tapped by the Vatican to coordinate a wide-ranging visitation of American seminaries and religious houses of formation in 2005 and 2006.
O'Brien spoke to NCR by phone April 3.
Are you encouraged by the Vatican's decision to launch an apostolic visitation?
I certainly am. I think it settles a lot of people's concerns that nothing was going to be done. It remains to be seen how this visitation will shape up, how deep they will go into the whole matter of the Legionaries and Regnum Christi. I would think that this is a one-shot thing, that we'll have one swing at this, and I hope that it answers the questions and responds to the doubts that so many people have raised.
You've run an Apostolic Visitation. What does it take to get it right?
First of all, it takes some trust on the part of the institution that's being reviewed. That means cooperation, full cooperation, including opening all the books and providing all the background that's required to get a full picture.
Are you confident the Legionaries are ready to cooperate?
I hope so. I'll put it that way: I really do hope so. It depends on so many individuals being open, because it just takes a few to try to block it and to mislead. I hope that the Legionaries will realize that in the long run, this is going to help them.
You're recently had talks in Rome with Fr. Alvaro Corcuera, the superior of the Legionaries. Are you confident he's ready to cooperate?
I can't say. I'm quite sure he would want to see this thing cleared up, and I hope he'll realize that the best way is to encourage everyone to cooperate.
What are the issues that the visitation should consider?
In the first place, they have to look at Maciel himself. What are the facts, who knew them, when did they know them, and why did it take so long for them to become public? They should look at the financial dimension. They also need to examine who the victims are, and what's being done to meet the needs of those victims.
Then, they need to look at the structure that Maciel created. There was a good deal of secrecy in his own life, and there's secrecy in the structures he created. It would be helpful to know why there is such secrecy. For example, why is there such an effort with their seminarians to limit their exposure to the real world out there? What are their recruiting strategies for vocations to the priesthood? How above board are they? What are the numbers involved, how many priests have been ordained and how many are still active in the priesthood with the Legionaries?
The Legionaries put out numbers. Are you suggesting they may be skewed?
I'm told that the numbers are hard to come by. We might have ordination numbers for this year and a total of those ordained, but I hear there's a large drop-out rate … that's the scuttlebutt, anyway. If so, it would help them to reveal that and to ask questions as to why. Does that reflect something in their formation? I don't know, but we should be asking the question.
What's the profile of the right kind of person to conduct this visitation?
It has to be clear that they're working directly for the Holy Father. They have to be convinced of that, and so do the members of the Legion. They should also have some status, so I think it would be helpful if bishops were involved. They should be as objective as possible. They should also have some experience with religious life, with the vows, formation, canonical structures and spirituality of religious life.
Do you believe that abolition of the Legionaries should be on the table?
I think everything should be on the table. Of course, the ultimate hope is that what is good [in the Legion] can be preserved, so that it grows into a stronger movement. That's what everyone would like to see. I have said before, however, that there may be something endemic in the whole thing that will not allow that to happen.
In your view, the visitators should not be afraid to recommend drastic steps?
Absolutely not. This is a solemn obligation they have. It's very serious. Souls are at stake, lives are at stake. I'm sure the Holy Father will let them know that every aspect should be investigated, including the Legion's accomplishments, areas that need to be improved, as well as areas that have to be excised.
You've been very public in your criticisms of the order. Why have you chosen to speak out?
I saw a lot of the Legion when I was in Rome, and I heard a lot about them back here in the States. When I came to Baltimore, I learned that [Cardinal William Keeler]had been dealing with them on a local basis for three or four years, asking for greater transparency, and basically got nowhere. Our priests were frustrated. When I told them that I would demand accountability and share the results with the priests' council, it got a very positive reception.
When word got out of what I was doing, I was surprised by the response. I've received some harshly negative reactions, but I've also had letters from all over the country saying 'Thank you, here's my story.' I got one just last week, from somebody who had been in the organization for seven years and left last week, saying how guilty they felt and that they're having nightmares. It seems to have such a hold on people, and we need to find out why. I don't know of any other organization that has created this atmosphere of suspicion. For their good, and for the good of the church, the full picture should be laid out.
I had no idea when this started that it would draw such a reception. I don't regret it, but it certainly wasn't planned. In the long run, I believe it will be helpful.
Apart from the details about Maciel, are their broader lessons for the church in what's happened with the Legionaries?
I think it begins with Maciel, with the cult of personality around him, the secrecy. The saints don't need that. We have many saints who are respected and looked up to in ways similar to how so many looked up to Maciel, but the saints don't have that fence around them, that mysterious following.
We can learn from this. So many have been devastated and misled, and it will be good to see how it all came about. It's a lesson about holiness in the church. There's also something to learn about transparency. Of course, there are some areas where the church has to conduct itself in the internal forum, to protect people's rights and consciences, but I do think that at the core of the Legionaries there's been an unnecessary and unhealthy secrecy.
Do you sense that a growing number of Legionaries and Regnum Christ members agree with you?
I think so. I've spoken to a couple of Legionary priests who say they're on the fence right now, wanting to see this thing clarified. They're good priests, they've gotten a lot out of the movement, but now so much of what nourished them seems to be less ideal than they thought it was.
It will be tough for them. I don't know of any religious orders founded by somebody like Maciel, or if they were, they didn't last very long. The Legion has managed to dig itself in pretty deep, and to spread broadly. I don't think it necessarily has to fold, because it has some elements that have contributed to people's holiness. If we can preserve that, we'll be better for it.
I find the description of
I find the description of what an Apostolic Visitation contained in this article:
You've run an Apostolic Visitation. What does it take to get it right?
First of all, it takes some trust on the part of the institution that's being reviewed. That means cooperation, full cooperation, including opening all the books and providing all the background that's required to get a full picture.
I pray that all parties will be open to all Apostolic Visitations everywhere. That attitudes such as Sr Schneiders of the Sisters, Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary of Monroe, Michigan are not representative of all folks involved in Apostolic Visitations (there are several going on at this time). For the definition of obedience is listening deeply-see Bishop Gumbleton's column here in NCR.
Here is an excerpt from Sr Schneiders as found here in the NCR at: http://ncronline.org/news/women/weve-given-birth-new-form-religious-life
EXCERPT:
We cannot, of course, keep them from investigating. But we can receive them, politely and kindly, for what they are, uninvited guests who should be received in the parlor, not given the run of the house. When people ask questions they shouldn't ask, the questions should be answered accordingly. I just hope we will not, as we American Religious so often do, think that by total "openness" and efforts to "dialogue" we are going to bring about mutual understanding and acceptance. This is not mutual and it is not a dialogue. The investigators are not coming to understand -- believe me, we found that out in the seminary investigation. So let's be honest but reserved, supply no ammunition that can be aimed at us, be non-violent even in the face of violence, but not be naive. Non-violent resistance is what finally works as we've found out in so many arenas.
Grace and peace with prayers in Christ...
Excuse me, Anonymous of April
Excuse me, Anonymous of April 3, 2009----but the Apostolic Visitation of the Religious Communities of Women is not the same---not by a long shop. ALL the Religious Communities of Women involved in Apostolic Works is being examined----and we are talking about many, many orders and congregations of women---everyone that is NOT a closistered community. They have different rules, and different constitutions.
Secondly, there is nothing secretative about the women religious-----no group has been more open in sending their reports (financial, mission statements, apostolic endeavors, even monthly reports on house meetings, events that individual religious women are involved in) are collected and sent on a biannual basis. Don't talk about what you do not know.
The Legionaires---on the other hand, have not been open from their inception---and that is the difference.
The Vatican should have investigated this religious order a long time ago---and not be wasting its time looking at the religious women who have done the bulk of the work in the Church. Now that their numbers are decreasing and lay women( God love them) are stepping in to assume the workload---now the Vatican is getting concerned about 'watsup'.
LittleBear you make some
LittleBear you make some great points. But are these points sufficient to approach an Apostolic Visitation with a closed heart? Have confidence in almighty God the Holy Spirit. The Truth sets us all free. We all need to listen deeply... After all, every Religious community belongs to Jesus-God come in the flesh. We know that He will not abandon us. Even He did not do His own will, but that of His Father in Heaven. We are called to emulate Jesus who is the perfect image of the Father's love. Look to Jesus and praise Him. For God inhabits the praise of His people. Trust, and leave the rest to Him! Grace and peace with prayers always in Christ...
Who are Legionaries? The
Who are Legionaries?
The Legionaries of Christ (or Legion of Christ), which enjoyed Vatican favor under Pope John Paul II, claims to have 800 priests and more than 2,500 seminarians in 21 countries, including the United States. Regnum Christi claims 70,000 lay members in 45 countries.
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http://pewforum.org/news/rss.php?NewsID=17814
March 31, 2009
Vatican to investigate Legionaries of Christ
by Francis X. Rocca
Religion News Service
VATICAN CITY -- A conservative Catholic movement announced Tuesday (March 31) that it will be the subject of a Vatican investigation, following revelations that its late founder fathered at least one illegitimate child.
The Rev. Alvaro Corcuera, general director of the Legionaries of Christ, made the announcement in a letter dated Sunday (Mar. 29), and posted Tuesday on the Web site of the group's affiliated lay movement, Regnum Christi.
The investigation, known as an "apostolic visitation," will take place "over the next months," Corcuera wrote, and "will help us to face our present vicissitudes related to the grave facts" revealed in recent years about the movement's founder, the Rev. Marcial Maciel, who died in 2008.
A similar apostolic visitation was conducted in U.S. seminaries to investigate a perceived gay subculture; the Vatican is soon set to launch a probe of U.S. women's religious communities.
The Legionaries of Christ (or Legion of Christ), which enjoyed Vatican favor under Pope John Paul II, claims to have 800 priests and more than 2,500 seminarians in 21 countries, including the United States. Regnum Christi claims 70,000 lay members in 45 countries.
In 1997, nine former Legionaries accused Maciel of sexually abusing them decades earlier, when they were studying to become priests under his authority. The allegations, which Maciel denied, set off a drawn-out Vatican investigation conducted by the office of then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) from 1998 to 2005.
In 2006, with Benedict's approval, Maciel was asked to limit himself to a "life reserved to prayer and penitence, renouncing all public ministry."
The Vatican said at the time that Benedict had decided to spare Maciel a church trial, which could have resulted in his permanent removal from the priesthood, because of his advanced age.
At the time, the Legion issued a statement that Maciel had accepted the pontiff's decision as a "new cross that God, the Father of Mercy, has allowed him to suffer and that will obtain many graces for the Legion of Christ."
The story took another turn in February of this year when the Legion's leadership began informing members of disturbing findings about their founder. At least one member has publicly confirmed that Maciel fathered a daughter, now in her 20s.
"We are deeply saddened and sorry, and we sincerely ask for forgiveness from God and from those who have been hurt through this," Corcuera wrote in Sunday's letter, addressed to fellow Legionaries, without mentioning any specific charges.
According to the Rev. Thomas D. Williams, an American member of the Legionaries in Rome, at least three Vatican investigators -- one each for Europe, North America and South America -- will interview all of the movement's priests and some lay members, in order to evaluate the organization's basic soundness.
"Everything is theoretically on the table," Williams said. "The fundamental question for me is, is what I'm involved in a work of God or not? Only the church can tell us that."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/0
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/04/us/04legion.html?_r=1&ref=us
Catholic Order Jolted by Reports That Its Founder Led a Double Life
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
Published: February 3, 2009
The Legionaries of Christ, an influential Roman Catholic religious order, have been shaken by new revelations that their founder, who died a year ago, had an affair with a woman and fathered a daughter just as he and his thriving conservative order were winning the acclaim of Pope John Paul II.
Before his death, the founder, the Rev. Marcial Maciel Degollado, had been forced to leave public ministry by Pope Benedict XVI because of accusations from more than a dozen men who said he had sexually abused them when they were students.
But most members of the Legion continued to defend Father Maciel, asserting that the accusations had not been proved. Father Maciel died in January 2008 at the age of 87, and was buried in Mexico, where he was born.
Now the order’s general director, the Rev. Álvaro Corcuera, is quietly visiting its religious communities and seminaries in the United States and informing members that their founder led a double life, current and former Legionaries said.
The order is not publicly confirming the details of the scandal.
Jim Fair, a spokesman for the Legionaries, said only: “We have learned some things about our founder’s life that are surprising and difficult for us to understand. We can confirm that there are some aspects of his life that were not appropriate for a Catholic priest.”
Some former members said they expected the order to renounce its founder, but Mr. Fair said: “He is the founder and he always will be the founder of the order. That’s one of the mysteries that we all see in life is that sometimes good things come out of less than perfect human beings.”
In Catholic religious orders, members are taught to identify with the spirituality and values of the founder. That was taken to an extreme in the Legionaries, said the Rev. Stephen Fichter, a priest in New Jersey who left the order after 14 years.
“Father Maciel was this mythical hero who was put on a pedestal and had all the answers,” Father Fichter said. “When you become a Legionarie, you have to read every letter Father Maciel ever wrote, like 15 or 16 volumes. To hear he’s been having this double life on the side, I just don’t see how they’re going to continue.”
Father Fichter, once the chief financial officer for the order, said he informed the Vatican three years ago that every time Father Maciel left Rome, “I always had to give him $10,000 in cash — $5,000 in American dollars and $5,000 in the currency of wherever he was going.”
Father Fichter added: “As Legionaries, we were taught a very strict poverty; if I went out of town and bought a Bic pen and a chocolate bar, I would have to turn in the receipts. And yet for Father Maciel there was never any accounting. It was always cash, never any paper trail. And because he was this incredible hero to us, we never even questioned it for a second.”
Mr. Fair said he had no comment about whether Father Maciel had misappropriated money, fathered a child or sexually abused young men.
The Legionaries, founded in 1941, have grown as the church in many countries has shrunk. It has 800 priests in 22 countries, and 70,000 members worldwide, many of whom are lay people in its affiliate, Regnum Christi.
Tom Hoopes, managing editor of The National Catholic Register, which is affiliated with the Legionaries, posted an apology on the Web on Tuesday for having dismissed the sexual abuse accusations, saying, “I’m sorry to the victims, who were victims twice.”
I feel relieve as the church
I feel relieve as the church started being concern about the double life of its 'male priests'.
However, I just wonder how many priests and bishops are left in their position of power while having not only one wife but many!In Africa Many school girls are defiled by them! Many girls turn to the priests for help to finish their primary or secondary education and yet,nobody can raise a complain to the Bishops for their unethical behaviour because priests, who are always in position of Authority, are backed up by their Ordinaries. If you dare to complain to their bishops, something serious might happen to you, because you are letting the cat of the bag and they are into the business more than their priests. How many priests should be sent out of their ministry?
In Africa, priests who do not have only one wife, that is fair enough but they have more than 3 or 4. They are not only 'common law' married priests but even poligomous priests. Without counting the concubines.Dioceses in Africa are always poor and the Vatican support them with the money of the poor believers around the world and then you see dioceses never get established and bishop cry all the time becasue they are abandoned by the church in Rome. But the truth is, the money that should be used to pay the catechists (the only evangelizers in the land of Africa) are used by the priests to support both their wives, children, concubines and the concubines children.
I call on the Vatican's responsibility to finalize the position of its own priets. Whether they are allowed to marry or not. And once the decision is taken, let them act accordingly without covering up!
People overlook sinners as we are all sinners but cannot bear when, for the authority of the church sin is istitutionalized.
http://www.washingtonpost.com
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/31/AR200801...
Rev. Maciel was the subject of periodic church investigations into allegations of sexual abuse of seminarians and young priests in the 1940s and 1950s, but no explanation or findings were publicly disclosed. The situation began to change in 1996 with investigations by Hartford Courant reporters Gerald Renner and Jason Berry, both experts on the Catholic Church. Their reportage on the Legionaries culminated in the book "Vows of Silence: The Abuse of Power in the Papacy of John Paul II" (2004).
In 1946, Rev. Maciel won his first papal audience, with Pope Pius XII, who told him that his order must be "an army in battle array." Three years later, Rev. Maciel formed a lay movement, Regnum Christi, which is flourishing.
He gained wide respect at the Vatican for starting low-cost universities.
Renner and Berry wrote that John Paul also saw the Legionaries as an effective bulwark against rapidly expanding evangelical Protestant groups in Latin America as well as priests following Liberation Theology, a sociopolitical movement aligned with the poor against right-wing governments…. Rev. Maciel accompanied John Paul on several of his trips to Mexico and sat on papal commissions and committees. He spent his last several years living quietly in his native village.
Vows of Silence The Abuse of
Vows of Silence
The Abuse of Power in the Papacy of John Paul II
Berry, Jason and Renner, Gerald
Publisher:Free Press,New York
ISBN13: 9780743244411; ISBN10: 0743244419
Publisher Comments:
Going deep behind the headlines about scandals in the Catholic Church, Jason Berry and Gerald Renner's Vows of Silence follows the staggering trail of evasions and deceit that leads directly to the Vatican — and taints the legacy of Pope John Paul II. Based on more than six years of investigative reporting and hundreds of interviews, this book is a riveting account of Vatican cover-ups and the tumult they have caused in the church worldwide. Both a profound criticism and a wake-up call to reform by two Catholic writers, Vows of Silence reveals an agenda of top-down control under John Paul II and a hierarchy so obsessed with secrecy as to spawn disinformation. Vows of Silence is not a book about sexual abuse; it is a book about abuse of power, throughout the Vatican.
The book cuts between the life story of Father Tom Doyle, who sacrificed a diplomatic career with the Vatican to seek justice for sex-abuse victims, and Father Marcial Maciel, an accused pedophile and founder of the militaristic religious order, the Legion of Christ. One of the most mysterious and powerful men in the Catholic Church, Maciel has built a network of priests, lay people, and elite prep schools in more than twenty countries, using the Legion as a fundraising machine to position himself as a favored figure of John Paul II.
In addition to accusations against Maciel of sexual abuse and of using Legion money for his own extravagant lifestyle, many ex-Legionaries claim that the order uses mind-control techniques to isolate seminarians and even priests from their families. And yet, because he enjoyed the protection of Pope John Paul II and members of the Roman Curia, charges against Maciel for sexual misconduct — all of which he denies — were blocked in the Vatican court system.
Drawing on in-depth interviews with Father Doyle and with ex-Legionaries who filed a canonical suit against Maciel, as well as interviews with Vatican insiders and an array of sources in Mexico, Ireland, Canada, and Australia, the authors provide a penetrating account of a hierarchy directly in conflict with its followers. With keen insight and scrupulous reporting, Vows of Silence is a powerful narrative that chronicles the church's struggle between orthodoxy and reform — going straight to the heart of one of the world's largest power structures.
Review:
"[An] impassioned exposé....[E]xhaustive reporting adds up to a disturbing indictment of a deeply troubled Church, and this book will no doubt cause much discussion and controversy." Publishers Weekly
Review:
"[P]owerful and well-researched....Written in the hope of helping the Church continue to reform itself, the book is highly recommended." Library Journal
Review:
"[A] well-reasoned indictment of contemporary Church policy." Kirkus Reviews
Review:
"Vows of Silence is a must read....[T]he book is painstakingly researched, beautifully written and gives sweeping historical context on issues of specific, current relevance." Carl M. Cannon, White House correspondent for National Journal
Review:
"A chronicle of hard truths that shows why the Catholic Church must undergo reform — or burial. Berry and Renner address their tragic subject with wide knowledge, impressive research, courage — and authentic love of the Faith." James Carroll, author of Constantine's Sword
Marcial Maciel Degollado -
Marcial Maciel Degollado - From "Faith" to "Filth" in the Church
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/29/catholicism.mexico
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/19/world/europe/19cnd-vatican.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/04/us/04legion.html?fta=y
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1577304/The-Reverend-Marcial-Maci...
Yet among his powerful advocates were the Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, and Fr Richard John Neuhaus, a former Lutheran pastor who became a prominent Catholic theologian in New York. In 2002 Neuhaus wrote of his "moral certainty" that the charges against Maciel were "false" and "malicious", but later acknowledged guardedly that they could have some substance. The Mexican primate, Cardinal Norberto Arriva Carrera, was also a Maciel supporter.
In 2004 Monsignor Charles Scicluna, Promoter of Justice to the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, re-opened the investigation with the support of the Congregation's then Secretary of State, Cardinal Josef Ratzinger. This involved interviewing witnesses on several continents and extensively questioning victims, including more than 100 former seminarians and priests. Ratzinger and Scicluna became convinced that there was more to the claims of the victims than they had first believed.
The following year Maciel stepped down as head of the order and, a few days before John Paul II died, Ratzinger announced his intention of removing "filth" from the Church; many believed he was referring specifically to Maciel.
In 2006 Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, removed Maciel from active ministry, inviting him to spend the rest of his days in prayer and penance.
Vatican to investigate
Vatican to investigate scandalized religious order
By RACHEL ZOLL
AP Religion Writer
Mar 31,2009
"The Legion was partly insulated from criticism by prominent supporters of its work, including George Weigel, the American biographer of John Paul; former U.S. drug czar William Bennett; and Mary Ann Glendon, a Harvard University law professor who was a U.S. ambassador to the Vatican under President George W. Bush. Legion leaders often vilified the order's critics as liberals who wanted to attack John Paul and the church."
"But the group's reputation began unraveling in 2006, a year into Benedict's pontificate, when the Vatican instructed Maciel to lead a "reserved life of prayer and penance" in response to the abuse allegations. Nine men had told the Vatican that Maciel had molested them decades before when they were young adults studying for the priesthood."
"Around the same time, several U.S. dioceses - including those in Atlanta, St. Paul and Minneapolis, and Baton Rouge, La. - set strong limits on the Legion's work. Last year, Baltimore Archbishop Edwin O'Brien restricted the Legion's local recruitment for the priesthood."
"However, it was only after the disclosure this year about Maciel's daughter that leaders acknowledged publicly that the priest also molested seminarians."
"He (Maciel) was asked to do penance in 2006 and still they were holding him up as their hero, their icon," O'Brien said in an interview, after warning local parishioners last month they should not join the group. "That shows how insensitive they were and I think, right now, unaware of the damage that's being done not coming out and saying things."
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_VATICAN_LEGIONARIES_SCANDAL?SI...
Bravo, bravissimo!!!!
Bravo, bravissimo!!!!
"asking for greater
"asking for greater transparency, and basically got nowhere. Our priests were frustrated."
The Archbishop can now relate to "transparency" and "frustration" among:
1."asking for greater transparency, and basically got nowhere. Our laity were frustrated."
2."asking for greater transparency, and basically got nowhere. Our women were frustrated."
3."asking for greater transparency, and basically got nowhere. Our children were frustrated."
4."asking for greater transparency, and basically got nowhere. Our nuns were frustrated."
5."asking for greater transparency, and basically got nowhere. Our deacons were frustrated."
6."asking for greater transparency, and basically got nowhere. Our altar boys were frustrated."
7."asking for greater transparency, and basically got nowhere. Our altar girls were frustrated."
8."asking for greater transparency, and basically got nowhere. Our Parish employees were frustrated."
This is a great interview and
This is a great interview and I am sure it will be received very positively by the community that reads NCR. However, could you imagine the reception of this by NCR readers if he had said similar things about the Women Religious who do not want transparency, fear the Vatican's investigation into their decades long decline that more than likely will end in the fall of many, many religious orders of women. What if he had questioned the "cult of the personality" in these orders that has consistently for years pitted radical feminism against the truths of the church? Women religious who follow the drivel coming out of the mouths of their leaders are victims too, like those who followed blindly the Legionaries founder's ideas. Fortunately, women religious who are anti-male, anti-magisterium and pro-gnosticism are small in number and dying out slowly. They don't have much of an impact in the Church anymore.
None of this garbage is
None of this garbage is new!!! I believe that they are only acting on this now because of Maciel fathering a child and that news becoming public. Years ago, many seminarians complained of terrible sexual matters in this so called society and nothing was done then----why now? The catholic church and its insistance on celebate priests has caused these type of problems for centuries but they have never taken effective action because of their own intense secrecies. They are the last major feudal system---also hiding and protecting their wealth in secret from any outside influence despite major embezzelments and misuse.
It is quite surprising John
It is quite surprising John Allen did not mention Opus Dei. They are quite similar to the Legionaries--an ambiguous (to say the least) founder, secrecy, cultishness. Archbishop O'Brien's notions on Opus Dei would help in understanding his stance towards the Legionaries.
It's not surprising that
It's not surprising that Allen didn't mention Opus Dei in the course of the interview; instead, it's remarkably noteworthy that he didn't.
After all, he wrote a whole book on Opus Dei, and apparently his knowledge and research was sufficiently deep on the matters of Opus Dei that the superficial and reflexive "parallels" to RC/LC insinuated in these comments, didn't come top of mind for him.
Read his book for a more thorough understanding of the matter....or choose to hold superficial and overly simplistic opinions...it's your choice.
I'm not certain that
I'm not certain that Archbishop O'Brien's notions on Opus Dei are relevant. While I do not know where I stand in regards to Opus Dei (I too think that they are lacking transparency as a whole), Opus Dei, its founder, and its organizational structure are not under investigation- however, the Legion is.
The main problems that Archbishop O'Brien has called attention to are 1. the secrecy of the Legion and 2. whether or not the dignity of each member of the Legion has been respected in their formation process.
The second problem is, in my opinion, the more serious of the two- because the souls that are malformed are leading and forming others. As Archbishop O'Brien so succinctly put it, "souls are at stake!"
God bless Archbishop O'Brien for speaking out. I pray that this painful process will be fruitful for the Legion.
The Legion and the Movement
The Legion and the Movement will survive as they are works of God. Father Maciel was a human being, full of virtues and mistakes. No one can judge him, not even this archbishop. He is not showing a Christian way of behaving. I pray for all the haters, and I hope they will repent and behave as Christians.
It would be to the advantage
It would be to the advantage of all involved if Archbishop Edwin O'Brien were to be appointed to lead, or minimally, be a part of the Apostolic Visitation. Please pray for the thoroughness, justice, clarity and charity that must be present.
Why are people more upset
Why are people more upset that Maciel fathered a child than by his abuse of seminarians. At least fathering a child is a more normal use of one's sexuality. That is the problem in a nutshell. Amongst the hierarchy and others in the church their is a sense that as long as it is done with men and boys, anything goes and is not really that bad. However when it is done with a woman, oh my, it is an abomination, a sin, the most terrible sin in the world.
People aren't more upset by
People aren't more upset by the child he fathered than his abuse of seminarians. These are Marciel's sins, not the Legion's. What people are upset about are the lack of a clear apology to the victims, the years of coverup and questioning the reputation of the victims, and that good people were deceived into putting their reputation on the line for Maciel.
There appears to be a misconception that prior to this incident only Catholic progressives criticized the Legion. Go through some back issues of the Wanderer and New Oxford Review. These two 'conservative' Catholic publications clearly, and consistently, sided with the former seminarians alleging abuse. The Vatican's 2006 retirement invitation brought more conservatives over to their side.
But the situation remained "their word against his word". What changes with the fathering of a child is the DNA evidence Maciel was not who he said he was.
There is a bigger question
There is a bigger question here than whether the Legionaries should be suppressed. Roman Catholic religious orders the world over, as well as lay people, and the hierarchy, need to address this question: when has a religious community run its course? When is and how does the Holy Spirit, as it were, prompt us to let go of one community and start a new one?
The same thing is true for individual parishes. When to we let go of one thing and start a new one. Planning is not a bad idea rather than the usual messy, bumbling around we do as a Catholic Church and a Catholic people. And this doesn't mean a) being insensitive to people and their hopes, dreams and sacrifice (on one hand) or b) perpetuating some ministry that its long past time to quit (on the other hand), hoping beyond hope that by doing the same thing over and over we'll get some different result.
Consider the Jesuits. Vocations have been decreasing for 2 generations now. Yes, there is some growth in the Global South, but the overall trend is downwards. Is there any longer an Ignatian charism needed by the Church? If so where and lived out how and by who? Does it matter if Ignatius' spiritual gifts, and the gifts of the community he founded, are better lived outside the Society of Jesus than within it? Whither, then, the SJ's? Maybe, maybe not. The Holy Spirit could have used the Society as a catalyst, or maybe a better analogy is a booster rocket. Once the booster has done its job it drops away, while the rocket continues on its journey.
My point is we need fewer, more accountable, more relevant, more focused forms of religious life in the Church. Its time for the older communities to really step out into the deep. Let go of their pet projects, ministries and advocacies (sic). Let go of their power, privilege, money and real estate. Let go of their self-image and ego (both communities and the members of those communities) and really let the Holy Spirit rule, guide and direct their life, lives and mission. For all the talk of the renewal of religious life after Vatican 2, I don't know that that process has even started yet.
Interesting comments. I
Interesting comments. I personally take a higher view of Major Religious Orders (e.g. the Franciscans). When St Francis complained about the people that were in time to be known as the Franciscan Order, it is said that Jesus-God told St Francis that it was His Order NOT Francis'. Lets leave such debate where it belongs-between the Religious themselves in consultation with Rome and in almighty God the Holy Spirit.
The AB of Baltimore says, "I
The AB of Baltimore says, "I don't know of any other organization that has created this atmosphere of suspicion."
He should: the "other organization" is Opus Dei!
As a friend once reminded me, if you see an Opus Dei (or Legionaries) priest come toward you, turn around and run as fast as you can. And don't look back!!!
And, I suspect, you should
And, I suspect, you should grab your wallet, too.
Archbishop Edwin O'Brien is
Archbishop Edwin O'Brien is the kind of bishop we need more of in the RCC. He speaks plainly and not in the usual ecclesiaticalese. Since John
Paul II had such an uncritical view of Fr. Maciel and the Legionaries of Christ, as well as the other "new movements," it has been the norm for bishops to overlook their transgressions. Here is a man who is training a critical eye on the Legion. He should be leading the visitation.
Steve
Let us pray for him and his
Let us pray for him and his soul so he'll repent and start behaving as a Christian.
My hope is that the
My hope is that the investigation will be thorough and complete!
Why stop at the Legionaries.
Why stop at the Legionaries. Why single them out for abolition?
Shouldn't all other "similar" groups or sects be abolished as well?
How about Opus Dei? Communion and Liberation? Focolari?
Albeit it is hard to beat the Legionaries when it comes to abuses and corrupt practices. They alone will forever tarnish Pope John Paul II's image as he accorded them unequivocal and unconditional support, second only to his embracing dictator Augusto Pinochet and giving him holy communion.
Tyrants tend to support one another, don't they?
Why just this one group
Why just this one group within the church? Why are not bishops across the spectrum being investigated for who knew what and when in regard to the sex abuse scandals? I'm mystified why just this one group is being singled out while so many others are being tacitly condoned.
How do the Legionaries of
How do the Legionaries of Christ stand up to Opus Dei?
As I recall both were founded by men thought highly of by Pope John Paul II.
Both groups have raised tons of money. Both groups have been secretive and non-transparent. Both groups have operated (in many cases) without the backing of the Bishop in whose diocese they were located.
Are there other similarities that I'm unaware of?
How is Opus Dei regarded now?
Opus Dei has a founder that
Opus Dei has a founder that is a canonized saint and does not enter a diocese without the express permission of the Bishop. In many cases the Bishops are the ones asking for Opus Dei to come. There has been an effort in Opus Dei to be much more transparent--it is a personal vocation and membership is the personal business of each individual.
However, through much constructive criticism, there is a great effort to be open.
I believe that Regnum Christi
I believe that Regnum Christi exists mainly to recruit and raise money (similar to any other cult)and they are good at this. They have wonderful people at the lower levels and they do some good motherhood things but nothing in proportion to the tens of thousands of unpaid volunteers involved. Most of their "apostolates" have secondary objectives involving money and more recruits. It has been recently uncovered that there was not a clear distinction between what money belonged to Father Maciel and what belonged to his order and movement. Would donors have been so generous had they known that piles of money would be used to support a secret lifestyle? What seems bizarre to me is that there is this enormous scandal and everybody knows that there is something very wrong but because this group is so secretive nobody knows details about what is wrong. One thing the visitators need to accomplish if they allow things to continue is to establish a very clear mission statement so that everyone involved knows exactly what the group objectives are. And of course the money trail needs to be transparent. When a group is allowed to be so secretive it is no wonder the leaders can just help themselves. Who else besides MM had keys to the vault?
Catholic Order Jolted by
Catholic Order Jolted by Reports That Its Founder Led a Double Life
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/04/us/04legion.html?_r=1&ref=us
Father Fichter, once the chief financial officer for the order, said he informed the Vatican three years ago that every time Father Maciel left Rome, “I always had to give him $10,000 in cash — $5,000 in American dollars and $5,000 in the currency of wherever he was going.”
Father Fichter added: “As Legionaries, we were taught a very strict poverty; if I went out of town and bought a Bic pen and a chocolate bar, I would have to turn in the receipts. And yet for Father Maciel there was never any accounting. It was always cash, never any paper trail. And because he was this incredible hero to us, we never even questioned it for a second.”
Mr. Fair said he had no comment about whether Father Maciel had misappropriated money, fathered a child or sexually abused young men.
I think anyone "hand picked"
I think anyone "hand picked" by Maciel is going to have the potential to abuse as well as steal.
Judging by so many of the
Judging by so many of the comments posted concerning the Kolpack issue. It strikes me as strange that so few folks who self-identify as theologians and scholars are so silent concerning the letters of St Paul. They fail to acknowledge that so many of the Letters were written in the face of divided particular churches. That there appears to be so much indignation and surprise today around the idea of a Bishop taking action within his particular Church is astounding to me. Why then do you think St Paul instructed other bishops, clarified teachings in his letters? An example would be concerning getting drunk at Mass. No doubt people who had been imbibing too much, or even eating sumptuous meals, without sharing the food they brought to Mass were might peeved at the time requiring St Paul to have to step in and write a Letter. People tend to go off in tangents, and need to be shepherded. In this case, let the Bishop bishop, and earnestly support him with our prayers..
Grace and peace with prayers always...
A great interview, John. And
A great interview, John. And I agree that everything should be on the table. It's early days yet, but I always worry about cleaning up a cult like the Legionaires. I fear there's going to be a True Beliver hiding in the basement who will say all the right things now, but little by little try to restore the grand order over the coming years. When will the church learn that organizations based on secrecy, separation, and personality cults do not work. They didn't work in Jamestown, nor for the poor souls who offed themselves waiting for the flying saucers, nor for the David Keresh gang in Waco. The Legionaires are in that same lot. I would also look at Opus Dei, Devine Mercy, Focolari, and what's really going on in Medugoria. Is Blessed Mary really talking to those "visionaries" almost every day? Even Rome seems to raise an eyebrow at that one.
Oh, one more thing: Any chance we can get some of the laity on that visitation team? How about a few non-clerical psycologists, forensic accountants, and the cast and crew of the TV show "Lie to Me."
I will be praying for you and
I will be praying for you and all those liberal Catholics around.
Start behaving as a Christian, and if you are going to say something, at least state your real name. Don't be a coward.
I continue to suggest that,
I continue to suggest that, if an investigation to determine if greed, corruption, perversion and, dare I say, dowright evil, does exist within our Holy Mother Church, then the investigation must first begin at the source, meaning, the Vatican. We know that there are darker forces working within the those sacred walls, or else how could these lately discovered crimes against children, young people, vulnerable adults and women been allowed to exist for so long in churches, schools, convents, monasteries and missions for generation after generation? These are the things that the Church and the People of the Church must face as a Reality. A Reality That Must Be Addressed.
I am still wondering what it
I am still wondering what it was that took the Vatican so long into looking at the Legionnaires.
There are a few down here in the South. Good men and were shocked about the disclosures of Father Maciel. I don't know where they stand in all this. They are still administering the parish.
A good idea is to close the doors and start over. Make it into a healthy community with healthy men of mind and soul. It may cause pain for some, but, pain is not all that bad as long as you know a good is at the end.
Archbishop O'Brien may congratulations on being forthright.
How about Bishop of
How about Bishop of Sacramento, California - Bishop Jaime Soto
http://www.regnumchristi.org/english/articulos/articulo.phtml?se=364&ca=...
University of Sacramento Graduation Ceremony
The Legion’s first private university in the United States awarded certificates to 21 graduates in the Catechetics program.
January 22, 2009. Sacramento, CA. On January 21, the University of Sacramento held its first commencement ceremony for students in its Advanced Certificate in Catechetics program. The ceremony began with a 6:30 p.m. Mass at the Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament in downtown Sacramento, with Bishop Jaime Soto as the main celebrant. About 200 guests were in attendance.
In his homily, Bishop Soto congratulated the graduates for their hard work, and commended them for taking on the mission of Catholic education, which is so needed in the world today.
The 21 graduates who received their certificates during the ceremony have completed a rigorous 3-year academic program of university level research and study in the areas of theology, Scripture, liturgy, catechetical principles and methods, as well as spiritual and pastoral formation. Their certificate will allow them to teach the Catholic faith in parishes and schools.
In addition to the Catechetics program, the university also offers a master´s in business administration and a master´s in education for people who want to teach in Catholic high schools.
The investigation does need
The investigation does need to be thorough, and transparency should be complete, which will not come easily, I'm afraid, in an organization formed in the opposite values.
Abolishing the Legion is the
Abolishing the Legion is the only option that should be on the table. It's time to shut down the whole thing. Maciel has corrupted the Legion from the beginning and he still has supporters who are alive and well in the upper governing stuctures of the Legion.
Two thumbs up for Archbishop O'Brien.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/0
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/04/us/04legion.html?_r=1&ref=us
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/31/AR200801...
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0407003.htm
Minnesota archbishop bars Legionaries from his archdiocese
By Jerry Filteau Dec-22-2004
Catholic News Service
WASHINGTON (CNS) -- In a letter made public by an Internet posting in December, Archbishop Harry J. Flynn of St. Paul-Minneapolis informed parish heads that the Legionaries of Christ are "not to be active in any way in the archdiocese."
He also instructed them that the Legionaries' lay associate movement, Regnum Christi, is to be "kept completely separate from all activities of the parishes and the archdiocese." The lay organization should not be allowed to use parish or archdiocesan property for any meeting or program, he said.
The St. Paul-Minneapolis Archdiocese is not the first to bar the Legionaries, a religious order of priests whose approach to ministry and methods of vocations recruitment and seminary formation have been a source of controversy. The Diocese of Columbus, Ohio, has had a similar policy toward the Legionaries and Regnum Christi since October 2002.
Ah yes! The good bishop can
Ah yes! The good bishop can speak of the investigation of a religious order...but are not many priests in many dieceses guilty of the very same charges?
What right does he have to "call the kettle black"?
At very least the children in
At very least the children in the "apostolic schools" should be sent home. Recruiting for these schools should be stopped immediately. Nobody should be "advanced" to final vows or ordination, nor novices admaitted until the visitation is finished.
Since the priests don't have regular jobs in parishes and will not be needed for recruitment they should all be incuraged to participate in a thirty day retreat at a local retreat house. Some could be freed to attend a sabatical program shuch as in Oblate, Berkeley, Vatican II, or the north American College. This "time away" might give these men some time and space for honest discernment and reflection. If the Pope should allow the Legion to continue or if these men decide to go elsewhere this time apart would be very helpful.
Apostolic Visitations =
Apostolic Visitations = Vatican intervention, like what they are doing with the women religious communities. I just hope they use the same force with women religious communities as they do with the Legionaires. Be careful what you hope for.
You can't wish for the ending of the Legionaires and complain about the Vatican investigating women religious.
I should like to say shame on
I should like to say shame on all of you dishonest and hypocritical "persons" who post here as sheepish, and usually, papist anonymouses !
May the Lord, with my blessing, strike and smitten you all for your brazen callousness!
I shall report you all to the proper heavenly authorities.
John, Why didn't you ask the
John,
Why didn't you ask the Archbishop for a comment on why Rome never followed up the many earlier complaints about sexual abuse? Wouldn't most journalists have asked that question?
Archbishop O'Brien, In your
Archbishop O'Brien,
In your recent interview with John Allen published in the NC Reporter you talk about the Legionaries' perseverance rate.
I have gone to the webiste of the Archdiocese of Baltimore and have found no information about the number of ordinations nor the number of (ex)priests.
In fact, after some research I have found that no US diocese has published this info, nor any religious order.
So please publish:
1. The number of ordinations in the Archdiocese in the past 20 years.
2. The number of these priests who have left the priesthood
3. The number of older priests who have left the ministry
4. The overall perseverance rate of the priest of the Archdiocese
5. The reasons why priests have left
I am all for transparency, but it should begin at home!
And please ask all Bishops and major superiors in the US to do the same
Be a champion of transparency!
Thanks. Sincerely
Mike Johnson
PS. I am posting this note in the NC Reporter blog
You should easily find all of
You should easily find all of this information in the Diocesan Year Book which every diocese produces - just because it is not online does not mean it does not exist - ask your parish priest, I'm sure he'll have one and gladly let you peruse it, unless you don't really care about the numbers in his archdiocese... you may instead be suggesting that he is being hypocritical, it is hard to tell.
When I was a legionary in Salamanca, Spain, Pope JpIIs secretary was made cardinal or bishop - i cant remember that detail, but he had his celebrations in the new LC centre in Rome.
The legion bussed nearly 100 brothers from salamanca to Rome (all the way across spain, across france, across switzerland and right down italy) for the weekend to give the impression that the building was full when in fact it was practically empty.
They lined up right around the drive way when he arrived and when he departed, applauding and cheering.
I have been in Baltimore for
I have been in Baltimore for over 14 years. They have always been transparent with number of Ordinations, retirements, leave of absences, etc. Just read their Diocesan Newspaper or the yearly directory or call the chancery or just pay attention to what is going in your dioceses. Obviously, you are not in the Archdiocese of Baltimore or else you would of known this.
AB Edmund O'Brien is the
AB Edmund O'Brien is the miserable wretch that fired Chaplain Father Thomas Doyle within 2 Years of his retirement from the Service in the army.
Fr. Doyle is the courageous man who helped write an expose, (the Petersen Report in 1985) on the serial sexual abuse of children by Homosexual Priests.
His firing was intended to punish Doyle for their work.
Had the Bishops used the expose to reform the chuch early on, the crises could have been stopped and many Souls might have been saved.
WOW! You surely have no idea
WOW! You surely have no idea what you are talking about!
First off...Fr. Doyle is not (and has never been) in the Army...he is STILL a chaplain in the Air Force Chaplain Corps (Reserves at the moment).
Secondly, priests don't retire from the military...they retire either from their dioceses/religious orders that they were borrowed from. They are not in the same retirement program as regular military field officers.
Thirdly, Fr. Doyle was (and still is) a Dominican friar. He was not fired from anything. He was reassigned in his minsterial roles by his Dominican provincial...not a bishop as the Dominicans are independent of the assignment of Dominican priests in various ministerial apostlates. Fr. Doyle's 'retriement' comes from the good graces of his order...not Uncle Sam.
Lastly, I have personally met Fr. Doyle at a conference of Dominican religious...and I can tell you that Fr. Doyle is not the 'saint' that you have made him out to be. He came across as a very angry and arrogant individual. I was amazed at his lack of charity and tact. St. Dominic would have been ashamed at how Fr. Doyle carries himself.
Please get your facts right, before you make idiotic and slanderous attacks.
God bless!
It is clear that those who
It is clear that those who dam Opus Dei do not know what they are talking about. So much has been written about St. Josemaria.
While not a member, I have attended their Evenings of Recollection and silent retreats. No armed guards were in attendance. The only people who worry about Opus Dei are "Cafeteria Catholics".
I am not a member, however
I am not a member, however have attended evenings of recollection in the past. If you haven't attended one, I suggest you attend and see for yourself. As I recollect, it was a good evening of prayer and reflection. But not for me. I have also attended Franciscan sponsored events too. But not for me. i might try Carmelite next. There is great variety in the Church. That I believe is one of its strengths. Grace and peace with prayers always...
The Catholic News Service
The Catholic News Service reports that Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, said the pope wanted to help the Legionaries of Christ deal with its present problems with "truth and transparency." When has the Vatican ever investigated any person or organization with "truth and transparency"? It certainly didn't happen in the first investigation of Maciel, nor the second. It didn't in the case of the archbishop of Vienna a few years ago. It does even happen when the Vatican investigates a dissident. If he's lucky, John Allen will get to report only some general conclusions that the order is straightening out its problems and on to more pr.
I'M SORRY. I begin with an
I'M SORRY. I begin with an apology. But still I want to say what I believe. Whenever I see roots that go back to any European nation that embraced a Fascist government, especially for decades following World War II, the warning lights go off in my mind. I have seen too many examples of secrecy and mind-control is a variety of organizations (including Opus Dei) for me to miss the connection. Many people involved are sincere, devout, well-meaning people, but they are also, very often, naive and manipulable. I watch the instances of abuse of religious power and see there an ingrained tendency to totalitarianism. Stay awake!
Anonymous, I second that!
Anonymous, I second that! Shut those Apostolic Schools down immediately. We know first hand that the methods are psychologically and emotionally harmful. We have written to our bishop and the bishops that have these schools in their diocese. Before we went to the bishops we expressed our observations and concerns to the LC leadership and they told us nothing would or needs to change. Being RC at the time, we even recommended an in house investigation so that the errors could be corrected without any publicity. The answer was, "there is no need to investigate".
The LC has total access to these children that are completely vulnerable. It must stop!
The Legion of Christ has
The Legion of Christ has already had an apostolic visitation in the 1950s, during which time Maciel was investigated for drug addiction and abuse (dolantin - a prescription drug) and also for sexual impropriety.
During this time he was forbidden to go to LC centres and removed from authority. He found devious ways to get around this - like driving to rome and meeting people there in his car without leaving it - so he wouldn't, literally, set foot in Rome.
Conveniently, it was just in time for this visitation that he invented by sudden divine inspiration his vow and tradition of never criticising a superior(inlcuding his morals) in any form - not in thought and not in words or in writing, and to report to the superior anyone that the legionaries should find criticising.
Maciel was restored to his position of authority between the death of Pius XII and the election of Juan XIII - ie when there wasn't a pope in charge.
The Legion have only relatively recently (within last ten years) produced a dodgy letter supposedly from one of the visitators stating that maciel was exhonerated, but in reality we do not know if the investigation was simply dropped because the pope who ordered it had died.
I would like to find out the details about this visitation - it must surely be the only congregtion in church history to have 2 apostolic visitations on these very serious grounds.
My guess is that, based on
My guess is that, based on the way the winds are blowing, the future of the Legionnaires ia a lot more promising than that of Archbishop O'Brien. The Vatican will be able to overlook secrecy, sexual abuse and Maciel's love-child. The only problem the L's may have is with the allegations of irregularities re: $$. That's one thing the guys in Rome aren't going to gloss over.
Someone wrote "It is clear
Someone wrote "It is clear that those who dam Opus Dei do not know what they are talking about. So much has been written about St. Josemaria.
While not a member, I have attended their Evenings of Recollection and silent retreats. No armed guards were in attendance. The only people who worry about Opus Dei are "Cafeteria Catholics".
Well, as someone who grew up in OD I know what I am talking about. There are so many similarities between Opus Dei and the Legionaires. They both have cult like followings. They both look to the "father" meaning the founder in an unhealthy idol worshiping way. They both shun members when they leave of their own free will. They both spend much energy trying to get in good with the Vatican because they go where the power is. They both are mainly interested in wealthy and highly educated people. They both recruit on college campuses. When a member, you are cleverly "trained" to never say anything negative about the group, and if someone says something negative about OD to a member they are to give robotic pat answers, and if that does not work, they insult the person by saying that the person does not know what they are talking about. It is a typical cult method used to discredit a critical free thinking person. I have known people who had their confessions violated and I have known people who were told that they would go to hell if they left OD. I knew two numeraries who snuck out of windows late at night to run away. I knew one whose family hired a cult deprogrammer to help their daughter. I know members who were lied to and not told a thing about having to wear a cilice until after they signed on the dotted line. Also, I have seen families torn apart because a family member chose to be active in other areas of the church. OD tends to only do things within the group unless they are trying to recruit from outside groups. OD believes that they are the best catholics--that they are better formed than others. Members keep a secret list of 12 people that they are "working on" to join. They befriend you and then after a short time if they are getting nowhere with their "work" they dump the person, and move on to another unsuspecting person--not very christian like behavior. Nothing you tell anyone in OD is private. I could go on and on. If you want more "real" info, check out ODAN.org. Oh, and for the record, before you call me a "cafeteria catholic" or an angry disgruntled ex-catholic, I am happy to report that I am still a practicing devout, conservative, orthodox catholic. Thanks to my grandmother and uncle, not OD.
Whatever. I hope the Lord
Whatever.
I hope the Lord forgives you after all this bad-telling about other Christians. How can you judge others? It is shameful.
I am praying for you, and all the haters and, of course for His Excellency the Archbishop.
I think the Legion needs
I think the Legion needs reform, yet I take issue with selective outrage on the part of the Archbishop. The Legion and their recruiting tactics are so very harmful, yet parishes in HIS Archdiocese are allowed to have ongoing GL Ministries which are completely opposed to the Church's teaching on the issue. Note that from one particular parish (which may or may not be in Anne Arundel county, and may or may not be named after a certain woman from France) you may click yourself right to a ladies only dating sight, and is quite p*rn*graphic in nature... But this poses no threat to the good Christian soul I am sure. Will an apostolic visitation of the archdiocese soon follow?
I think the Vatican has been
I think the Vatican has been compiling information about the Legionaries for a long time. When the present pope was Prefect of the Secretariat for the Doctrine and Faith did his job very well. Several months after being elected pope he disciplined Fr. Maciel. The disclosure about Maciel misconduct came from the Vatican; and now the Visitation. Two and two are four. The Apostolic Visitation would not start from a tabula rasa.
An American Bishop,
An American Bishop, complaining about someone else's lack of transparency. That's precious.
Problems with the interview "
Problems with the interview " Abolition of Legionairies should be 'on the table'
1. The mendacious headline. The words 'on the table' are in apostrophes, not quotation marks, for good reason. Archbishop O'Brien never said "abolition should be on the table." He only agreed to that leading question from John Allen: "I think everything should be on the table. Of course, the ultimate hope is that what is good [in the Legion] can be preserved, so that it grows into a stronger movement. That's what everyone would like to see." Later, the Archbishop said "...because it [the Legion] has some elements that have contributed to people's holiness. If we can preserve that, we'll be better for it."
2. I must say I was surpised to see that the Archbishop based some of his thoughts on "scuttlebutt."
3. In general, the whole interview/article is a fine example of guilt by association;' Maciel is bad, ergo Legion is bad. I hope no member of the Church, bishop or not, would agree with that chop-logic.
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