The Independent News Source
Twitter - Facebook - Email Alerts - RSS
The past is a very living thing: Try not to forget it
by Joan Chittister on Apr. 24, 2009
Printer-friendly version
Send to friend
PDF version
Printer-friendly versionSend to friendPDF versionHere's a quiz for you: What are Dum Diversas, Romanus Pontifex and Inter Caetera and what do they have to do with us -- to governments, to churches and synagogues and temples and mosques -- and the Vatican? Answer: I didn't know either. Then I got a handwritten copy of a letter from an Indian grandmother that not only answered the original question but made me think of a lot of other questions, as well.
The letter reads:
"I am Grandmother Beatrice Long-Visitor Holy Dance. I am from the Oglala Lakota Nation. My original homelands are the Black Hills of South Dakota.
I want to speak to the issue of "Healing Our Relations."
We believe our ancestral ways of prayer, peacemaking and healing are needed today. We still rely on the teachings of our ancestors for our survival.
We the International Council of Thirteen Indigenous Grandmothers were brought together by a common vision:
1. To form a global alliance of prayer.
2. (For) education and healing for Mother Earth and all her children.
3. To protect our lands and cultures upon which our peoples depend.Unfortunately, relationships between national-states and tribal peoples in the Americas, Africa and Oceania rests on the foundation of the "doctrine of conquest" or the "doctrine of discovery." These governmental doctrines can be traced directly to the following Papal Bulls -- Dum Diversis, June 18, 1452; Roman Pontifex, January 8, 1455; Inter Caetera, May 4, 1493.
These papal bulls gave dominion to European nations over lands that our tribal nations have occupied for thousands of years. They also laid the basis for the European "Age of Discovery" that resulted in the outright theft of entire continents from our indigenous people world wide.
It has been over 500 years since these papal bulls were written, yet they remain the spiritual, legal and moral foundation for exercising jurisdiction over tribal people by nation states today.
Our tribal nations must still live with the denial of our right to be treated as equal participants in the world community of nations. In other words, our people are still struggling for the right to live on earth and practice our cultural and spiritual traditions as our ancestors did.
As a very concerned Grandmother, I"m asking Pope Benedict the XVI, a servant of God, to remove these Papal Bulls. An act like this would create a global healing of all the injustices suffered by indigenous people all over the world.
It could also bring healing to those who committed these injustices.
The question, of course, is, is the charge true? Unfortunately, yes. "Roman Pontifex," written by Pope Nicholas V to King Alonso of Portugal is clear and unequivocal. The decree reads:
"We weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso -- to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, and to apply and appropriate to himself and his successors the kingdoms, dukedoms, counties, principalities, dominions, possessions, and goods, and to convert them to his and their use and profit…
More than true, the content is also shocking. The shock that comes with knowing that it was a Papal Bull that authorized both conquest and slavery in the New World for hundreds of years is, at very least, part of what such a letter is meant to teach us today: "No decision should be made," the Native Americans tell us, "that does not take into account its affect on the next 10 generations." What we do today, in other words, has something to do with what life will be like 500 years from now.
Papal Bulls promulgated in the 15th century still shape the way peoples live and think and relate to one another five centuries later. It is a lesson begging to be learned in many arenas and in every institution as well as in this particular case itself.
The ways women were defined by religious traditions, including our own, centuries ago, affect us still. The fact that women were labeled as witches from the 16th to 18th centuries influences social systems to this day.
The decision this government makes now about the treatment of torture and the moral responsibility of its agents will also affect the standing of the United States in centuries to come.
The propensity of U.S. governments to demand from others what we do not intend to do ourselves is key to the moral valuation of this nation in years to come. We call others to submit to international tribunals, to denuclearize their weapons systems, to hold soldiers and agents to the international rules of war but we do not do it ourselves. We denied the "I was only following orders" defense to German prison guards after the Second World War, but we are not demanding the same from our agents. We refuse nuclear weapons to most nations but not to those of our own choosing. We created War Crimes Tribunals to prosecute axis agents in the 1950s but will not now submit ourselves to the same court of international justice.
The church, too, is making decisions that may well define the future of the church for ages to come.
Rome, for instance, chooses not to instigate "apostolic visitations" of dioceses in which, as the Archbishop of Dublin, Dairmud Martin, just reported, "thousands of clerical pedophilia cases" in Ireland alone have been documented. See: Ireland archbishop admits child abuse report 'will shock us all'
But it is launching visitations of U.S. congregations of women religious to investigate a "quality of life" that has reached out to heal every level of society.
The simple reason given for such a serious move is that religious congregations are now experiencing a downturn in the numbers of younger applicants. Also true -- as is the decline in seminarians, incidentally. But also common at transition points throughout history and hardly immoral under any circumstances.
Religious communities of women were small when they came to this country over 150 years ago. Now the cycle is starting again at this new time, in this new way. For the sake of the future, this is no time to block the work of the Spirit.
From where I stand, the voices of the Grandmothers is a clear and demanding one. We must repent the sinful effects of past decisions of both church and state on the lives of people everywhere. Most of all, we must certainly not go on making them.
All I feel is gratitude that
All I feel is gratitude that I have been given an INFORMING EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENCE, rather than propaganda. I am in position to contribute to a just global existence.
As usual, Sister Joan is
As usual, Sister Joan is right on track! I wonder just what Pope Benedict do to respond?
I can't wait to hear her
I can't wait to hear her at
Topics to Go.
Catholic pray in the Holy
Catholic pray in the Holy Name of Jesus Christ. Christian prayer is conversation with Jesus who is the sole Mediator between God and Humanity. As Catholics, we do not "Pray" for praying sake. But rather enter in to the life of the Trinity, through our sole Mediator Jesus-God come in the flesh...
i am most grateful for this
i am most grateful for this insight!
That is shocking! Oh, I knew
That is shocking! Oh, I knew the europeans came and conquered, enslaved and stole the goods of the New World but to read this letter makes it sound so much worse. I guess I didn't realize quite how much our religious leaders have been able to lead us down the wrong road. How could any Christ-follower ever think that was okay?
The bible (and probably most cultures) has a saying such as this grandmother says. It's the one about the sins of the fathers coming down to the sons. I would say it is then a basic "truth of life" for all the remember.
By the way, there is one instance where the U.S. did hold to the law a soldier who did something wrong saying he was just following orders: Lt. Kelly during Viet Nam and if I recall correctly he got a life sentence. It seems to me he wasn't as responsible as the people in Bush's administration who started a pre-emptive war killing thousands on thousands as a result.
I'm afraid the writer is
I'm afraid the writer is incorrect about Lt. "Kelly" (it was actually "Calley." Lt. William Calley was rightfully convicted of the murder of 22 Vietnamese men, women and children at Mi Lai. He was sentenced to life in prison. But a strange thing happened...he actually served only a short period of time under house arrest in the US and in 1974 was pardoned by President Nixon. So...sorry we didn't do well on that one either...but then, the people that were murdered were only Vietnamese after all...kind of similar to the pagan savages "discovered" by Mr. Columbus. "When will we ever learn...when will we ever learn!"
Dear Joan, This is one of my
Dear Joan,
This is one of my favorites among your columns. I'm in awe of the magnificent uses to which you have put your gifts of writing and prophecy to work for the people of God.
As an aside to your comment above about the decline in religious vocations, I seem to have noticed two things while researching a related subject: 1. Many claim that seminary enrollments are increasing and 2. Orders of sisters ***who have continued to wear the habit*** are experiencing a renaissance. If you, or anyone else reading this, can comment, I'll be grateful.
Sr.Joan Chittister has
Sr.Joan Chittister has rightly mentioned the steep decline in the numbers of Catholic nuns in the USA:
According to: http://www.catholictranscript.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view...
Mother Mary Clare Millea, the sister commissioned by the Vatican to conduct the first-ever comprehensive study of women’s religious orders in the United States described the project as a positive effort to support and promote congregations at a time when their numbers are in steep decline.
The number of women religious in the United States has gone from 173,865 in 1965 to 79,876 in 2000, a decrease of 54 percent, according to data from the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate.
Mother Clare hopes that the study ultimately will reinvigorate congregations and help draw more women to religious life.
In an effort to share as much information as possible, a Web site, www.apostolicvisitation.org, has been launched. She said people have been making their thoughts known by way of the Web site.
Intense and challenging
Intense and challenging logic!
Re apostolic visitation, I wonder if the assets of pontifical religious communities and LCWR are influencing this initiative? Not all NRRO donations made it to retired sisters, it seems.
Anyone whoever read history
Anyone whoever read history books with an open mind has known this forever. Sometimes I try to pray for our church and the words don't make sense, just babbling, because that is all the church has come to mean. Sometimes only tears express how I feel.
During his long reign as
During his long reign as Pope, John Paul II said ‘sorry’ to Jews, Galileo, women, victims of the Inquisition, Muslims slaughtered by the Crusaders and almost everyone who had suffered at the hands of the Catholic Church through the years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologies_by_Pope_John_Paul_II
Even before he became the Pope, John Paul II was a prominent editor and supporter of initiatives like the Letter of Reconciliation of the Polish Bishops to the German Bishops from 1965. As Pope, he officially made public apologies for over 100 of these wrongdoings, including:
1.The conquest of Mesoamerica by Spain in the name of the Church.
2.The legal process on the Italian scientist and philosopher Galileo Galilei, himself a devout Catholic, around 1633 (31 October 1992).
3.Catholics' involvement with the African slave trade (9 August 1993).
4.The Church Hierarchy's role in burnings at the stake and the religious wars that followed the Protestant Reformation (May 1995, in the Czech Republic).
5.The injustices committed against women, the violation of women's rights and for the historical denigration of women (10 July 1995, in a letter to "every woman").
6.The inactivity and silence of many Catholics during the Holocaust (see the article Religion in Nazi Germany) (16 March 1998)
7.For the execution of Jan Hus in 1415 (18 December 1999 in Prague). When John Paul II visited Prague in 1990s, he requested experts in this matter "to define with greater clarity the position held by Jan Hus among the Church's reformers, and acknowledged that "independently of the theological convictions he defended, Hus cannot be denied integrity in his personal life and commitment to the nation's moral education." It was another step in building a bridge between Catholics and Protestants.
8.For the sins of Catholics throughout the ages for violating "the rights of ethnic groups and peoples, and [for showing] contempt for their cultures and religious traditions". (12 March 2000, during a public Mass of Pardons).
9.For the sins of the Crusader attack on Constantinople in 1204. (4 May 2001,to the Patriarch of Constantinople).
*****************************************************************************
After all, the Church had over its history taught a range of beliefs about abortion. St. Augustine had written that only abortion of a more fully developed "fetus animatus" (animated fetus) was punished as murder. In this century, however, the Church equates abortion with murder at all stages of pregnancy. St.Augustine must be rolling over in his grave!!
There is a pssibility that the church could reverse some of its current teachings on controversial subjects mostly in the area of human sexuality such as: Priestly celibacy, ordination of women, use of some methods of birth control, use of condoms by those with HIV/AIDS, equal rights for homosexuals, in-vitro fertilization, abortion, emergency contraception - "the morning after pill.", and last but not least the long awaited PAPAL BULL - the Verdict from the Vatican on "VIAGRA"!!
Dear Cardinal, And while you
Dear Cardinal, And while you are at it why not change all of God's Commandments also?? Nothing in the Catholic Church appears to suit you!
At least one North American
At least one North American First Nation, in an official letter, has written the Vatican directly asking that the Papal Bull Romanus Pontifex be rescinded. To my best knowledge, they never received a reply.
They never received a reply
They never received a reply because it is a ridiculous request. That bull, like all papal bulls, was written to address a specific question, for a specific purpose at a specific time and is no longer in force. What possible reason could there be for asking the Holy See to rescind a papal bull that is hundreds of years old and equally out of date and no longer applies to the Universal Church.
The Holy See has more important and pressing matters to deal with than something like this. The Holy See has apologized, through John Paul the Great at the time of the Great Jubilee, for the instances of insensitivity and sinfulness of its past. The apology has been issued...the question now is, has it been accepted? Based on this article and this comment, the answer is a resounding no.
What an absolutely profound,
What an absolutely profound, meaningful and exquisite piece of writing. There's no shaming-blaming here, just pointing out the facts as they are. Many of us have said it before and will likely say many times again, what the Roman Church has done to individuals, tribes, races, countries and nations throughtout history in the name of Christ is is an abomination. Protestants like to, at times, point fingers at the Roman Church for some of its actions, and justifiably so in more recent centuries, but much of what has been done was done before the Protestant Churches separated from the Roman Church. As such, this history is part of the Protestant history as welol. I'm not discounting the thousands, no millions of acts of Christian love and kindness and generosity that have been performed over the millenia, but the power with which destruction has been wrought by the Church leaders is overwhelimg. Thank you for bringing this to our attention and for our prayers.
Joan Chittister's April 24th
Joan Chittister's April 24th column, "The past is a very living thing: Try not to forget it," is, in the simplist term, FANTASTIC! It is, at the same time, an open admission of past mistakes by our papal leaders, but an unequaled public opportunity for our current Pope to correct those errors through public refutation of all their dated, nonsensical teachings.
Such an action would also open the minds of many, worldwide, to the never-ending-improvement possible in our church and growth in the honesty and following of Christ by our Holy Father.
Thank you Joan and NCR. Here's hoping!
I love reading Joan
I love reading Joan Chittister's articles. She stands bolt upright and tells it like it is. Attaway, Joannie!! You go girl!!!!!!
What the Church needs is
What the Church needs is another John XXIII, only a younger and healthier one who will reign at least as long as the "great" reactionary John-Paul II. The task of this new "J23" would be similiar to that of President Barack Obama, but exponentially more difficult. For while President Obama is faced with the task of undoing the horrors inflicted upon the world by the right-wing ideologues of the Bush cabal over the past eight years, the new J23 would be faced with undoing the horrors inflicted on humankind over the past 1500 or so years by the Church made in the image of the Emperor Constantine, horrors including not only the above mentioned Papal bulls, but also the torture and burning of "heretics" and "Witches" by the "Holy" Inquisition, and the butchery of the Crusades, which was butchery not only of Muslims but also of the Orthodox Christians of Byzantium.
Pope John XXIII's reign was far too brief. Will the Church ever again be blessed with such a second chance? Let us hope; for Jesus did say that "the gates of hell will not prevail" against his Church.
Come on Joan: comparing Papal
Come on Joan: comparing Papal Bulls of the 15th century with the Vatican investigation of whether or not women religious are adhering to the Faith of the Apostles is not a quest to impose slavery and imprision the pagans. Quite the contrary, the Vatican only wants to force you sisters to declare your allegiance, wherever it may fall, either with Apostolic Tradition in the area of an all male priesthood, the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the sanctity of holy matrimony between one man and one woman. That's all, Sister Joan.
That is hardly a Papal Bull to imprision women religious into slavery, but I guess from where you stand, you feel differently and your column is just one example of why the Vatican is investigating women religious.
Mara, to write what you have
Mara, to write what you have written indicates that you've totally missed the content of Sr. Joan's column.
Did you ever read this Papal Bull before? Are you not shocked?
I have to question whether you are living in reality or in a complete fantasy world if you are not shocked by the revelation of this Papal Bull.
Do you fully understand what the Papal Bull allowed for and promoted?
Mara, tell us what you think of this Papal Bull?
Dear butterfly, Perhaps
Dear butterfly, Perhaps mixing ancient history with modern hypocrisy is proper in some venues but not in the realm of a true believer! Papal Bulls hundreds of years ago were tantamount to Rome exerting powers it did not have to earn the political advantage of kings and other men of power for the sake of enriching them and Rome and taking even more power. We must all remember that men and women have evil tendencies and that we overcome them through prayer. Men of power where-ever they may be are powerful just because they seek power every moment of every day they live just like those that seek money at any cost just for the sake of having money! None of this is morally right and no matter how we try to justify this type of existence it is still sinful. Because past Popes have sinned and led through bad example does not give anyone the right to carry out this same sinful example. Perhaps we should examine and re-institute exactly what we mean when we sin. All acts against God and His Teachings are sinful no matter who commits them!! No one who is trying to follow God's example condones the sins of others and we are especially mortified when a member of the clergy openly sins! Much ill will to mankind has been committed in the past but if we are to progress as good Catholics we look ahead to the future bearing the past in mind to assure ourselves that we do not repeat past sins!! PRAY OFTEN and GOD will be with each of us!!
Tom Warren, do you really
Tom Warren, do you really think my comment to someone other than you warranted such a lecture? The Papal Bull was not ancient history but was rather recent and the effect is still with us today. To say that essentially I am not a "true believer" because of what I wrote in my comment to someone else btw is quite ludicrous and also very rude and untrue.
It seems you would rather gloss over the past than understand it. In that way you set yourself up to repeat history's past mistakes and bring it with you into the present and the future.
Dear butterfly, Just trying
Dear butterfly, Just trying to set the record straight. There were many Popes and members of the Hierarchy in the past who committed grave sins and we the Church continue to "suffer". Even recently members of the clergy and Hierarchy ignored the Moral Guidelines set by the Catholic Church and participated in the abuse of children!! Of course we cannot tolerate such contemptable behaviour and we all know that some day these people will pay for their sins if they have not repented but do we go on praising Sister Joan because she continues to keep the sins of individuals at the forefront and to what gain?? I am proud to be a Roman Catholic and pray that all Catholics including myself stay on the straight and narrow, get back up when we fail, and beg for foregiveness! Ours is not to question every deed committed by sinners but to pray for each of them to be reconciled. JESUS MEEK AND HUMBLE OF HEART MAKE OUR HEARTS LIKE UNTO THINE. AMEN.
tom warren, I think you
tom warren, I think you misunderstand Sr. Joan. The intent by her was not "to keep the sins of individuals at the forefront." I believe her intent was to reveal a truth that before was hidden. Were you aware of this Papal Bull before? I was not aware of it. Are you aware of the Indians spirituality and what they need for healing?
The Church has a responsibility to lead and in that leadership they need to reconcile before they can be reconciled. They have not and they continue to repeat history.
As for "people paying for their sins if they have not repented" I think it is true that people pay for their sins even if they have repented because there is a consequence that still brings suffering. If one is truly sorry, they are sorrowful and will not do the sin again.
But we see repeated errors from the Church hierarchy, from those at the highest levels of "authority." While at the same time they say they are "infallible." This is more testimony against their claim to infallibility and moral authority.
It is also testimony that they are not sorry and the Indians need to hear an apology so they can move on.
The hierarchy are the one's who need to develop a humble heart and to be meek, unless you think they are gods.
Dear butterfly, Yes I was
Dear butterfly, Yes I was aware of the Papal Bull before Sr. Joan wrote about it. For one to continually harp about the Church Hierarchy as Sr. Joan has makes one question motives. Many say she is a healer. How does negatism heal anything?? Some say she is a prophet? On what basis?? The only times the Church speaks infalliby is on matters of Faith or Morals. We can twist and turn anything about the Church as many haters of the Church do. We can lie about the Hierarchy because it is made up of men. Much of what is reported on makes no sense. It appears as though there is a pre-judgement of what the emissaries from Rome will be saying to the nuns across the United States. Naturally those who have separated from the Church because they were "ordained" separated themselves from the Church. Disobedience to authority cannot be tolerated. Upheavel in the Church has always happened because of our PRIDE and it always will!
Tom, people are not harping
Tom, people are not harping about the hierarchy because they just feel like harping. There are real reasons for such harping as you prefer to call it. To many, I might add, she is a healer, whether you prefer to agree with that or not.
Sr. Joan is not lying about the hierarchy Tom. Are you calling the Papal Bull a lie? Why do you insist that everyone who has a different opinion than you is being negative, when it seems that you are the one being negative about those only telling the truth. You say they are lying and hate the Church if they make any presentation that tries to communicate the issues.
It is obvious when you say that "much of what is reported on makes no sense" that is not due to any failure of Sr Joan, but perhaps in your understanding of her you have failed.
You say "Upheavel in the Church has always happened because of our PRIDE and it always will." That is a very broad statement and you would have to be more specific in identifying just who is being full of PRIDE?
I've been following NCR articles for quite a while now and if there is harping the hierarchy gives cause for such harping, such as in insisting that pedophiles not be harbored or enabled by Church authorities, or in conducting itself in such a way that is truly scandalous. People in disagreement with the harping are usually those who have not contemplated why there is harping and only wish to end discussion. Not only that, people in disagreement often just come to this website to harp against the harping, and most likely hated Jesus harping against the Pharisees too. He should have just obeyed the authority of the High Priests? Who is the High Priest?
Then they accuse the harpers of being haters of the Church. Harping is not really hate if the harper is trying to address and communicate issues that need to be addressed and communicated. Trying to communicate is not evidence of hatred for the Church. Trying to prevent communication would be a type of hatred for the flow of ideas. Ending communication does not allow for people to contemplate the issues, but shows a desire to dictate what can be communicated and contemplated.
I suggest before rendering an opinion against Sr. Joan that you contemplate what she is trying to communicate instead of judging it and going so far as to pre-judge her.
"Disobedience to authority cannot be tolerated" you say. Is the Church more important to you than Jesus Christ who is the authority that we should obey? Jesus disobeyed authority didn't he? Didn't he, as a Jew, disobey their laws? In being Christ-like, often we have to disobey "authority" because the real authority is Jesus Christ whom we should not disobey. That is the teaching of Jesus Christ which supersedes the laws of men and that should never ever be forgotten.
It is one's PRIDE in an institution's laws and dogma that prevents the institution and its people from behaving and becoming Christ-like. Don't you think it is Pharisaic for the Church to conduct its power and authority in a way that does not resemble Christ? By being obedient to Pharisees you would be denying Jesus Christ as the authority.
The Church is not a credible authority when it preaches on morals and faith but has essentially no faith or morals to speak of in its acts such as in this Papal Bull which calls upon men in authority to pillage and condemn their neighbors into slavery. This is the major point that you are missing, that those in authority in the Church are continuing in a manner that is truly reminiscent of the period of the inquisition. That is not only unlike Christ, but goes against faith and morals.
Jesus Christ is the head, but the Church acts without that head and does what it wants in pride of its own power and authority. The Papal Bull is evidence of the Church as a body acting in defiance against Christ's teachings. This is the lesson that the Church has not learned and people such as yourself keep the Church from changing and reforming its ways to being Christ-like in the world.
It is best not to believe that the Church leadership is infallible in its teachings regarding faith and morals. If anything, the Church has erected barriers and has become a barrier against the Holy Spirit from moving in its members. The Church as an institution is full of pride when it acts without its head, Jesus Christ.
I am grateful to God for your
I am grateful to God for your courage to state truth and wisdom, Sister. I am especially grateful to Grandmother Beatrice Long Visitor Holy Dance for her revelation of the roots of American imperialism (for want of a better term). May the Pope and his consults hear your voice and act upon it!
Thank you Sr.Joan, You tell
Thank you Sr.Joan, You tell like it is. Sadly, our church has not the courage to admit errors....has not the courage or grace to heal the past and present sins committed in their name.
Papal bulls are so aptly
Papal bulls are so aptly named.
"When will they (the hierarchy) ever learn?
When will they (the power-FULL) ever learn?"
Confusion among Popes in
Confusion among Popes in spite of PAPAL BULLS.
Some of these teachings by the Popes in the past were contradicting one another.
Pope Sixtus V (1588) issued a Papal bull "Effraenatam" which threatened those who carried out abortions at any stage of gestation with excommunication and the death penalty.
Pope Gregory XIV (1591) revoked the previous Papal bull and reinstated the "quickening" test, which he determined happened 116 days into pregnancy (16½ weeks).
Pope Pius IX (1869) dropped the distinction between the "fetus animatus" and "fetus inanimatus." The soul was believed to have entered the pre-embryo at conception.
Leo XIII (1878-1903): He Issued a decree in 1884 that prohibited craniotomies. This is an unusual form of abortion used under crisis situations late in pregnancy. It is occasionally needed to save the life of the pregnant woman. He issued a second degree in 1886 that prohibited all procedures that directly killed the fetus, even if done to save the woman's life.
St. Augustine (354-430) accepted the Aristotelian Greek Pagan concept of "delayed ensoulment". He wrote that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. 3 Thus, early in pregnancy, an abortion is not murder because no soul is destroyed (or, more accurately, only a vegetable or animal soul is terminated).
Pope Innocent III (1161-1216): He determined that a monk who had arranged for his lover to have an abortion was not guilty of murder if the fetus was not "animated" at the time. Early in the 13th century, he stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. Before that time, abortion was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human person, not an actual human person.
Canon law was revised in 1917 and 1983 to refer simply to "the fetus." The church penalty for abortions at '''any stage of pregnancy was, and remains, excommunication.'''
Bravo!
Bravo!
Good editorial, Joan. Keep
Good editorial, Joan. Keep holding the Church's feet to the fire. The male hierarchy is threatened by women and women's voices. I hope they shrivel up with fear!
uh...um...you think the
uh...um...you think the "visitations" might be designed to take the focus off
the arrogant bishops and the pedophilia they condoned and covered up? What do
they say---a good offense is the best defense---or vice versa? Whatever.
Sending a "habit-ed" Sister to conduct the visitation only testifies to their
commitment to Wall Street's cliche, "Clothes make the man!" WELL, we know that
the ROMAN collar didn't make the priest!!! Nor does the habit make the Sister.
"The question, of course, is,
"The question, of course, is, is the charge true? Unfortunately, yes.
"Roman Pontifex," WRITTEN BY POPE Nicholas V to King Alonso of Portugal is clear and unequivocal. The decree reads:
"We weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso -- to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, and to apply and appropriate to himself and his successors the kingdoms, dukedoms, counties, principalities, dominions, possessions, and goods, and to convert them to his and their use and profit…"
Do any of the right wing fundamentalist Conservative Republican Catholics have a problem with getting rid of this Papal BS??? Do You?
Answer us Pope Benedict XVI. Tell us if you are a real Christian or NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SAY YOU ARE SORRY AND WILL GET RID OF THIS PAPAL BULLl!!!!!!!!!!
The Pope should be expelled from the Church if he doesn't get rid of this Papal Bull SXXT. He should be excommunicated. He should be silenced. He should be sent to an Indian Reservation to live out the rest of his days!!!!!!!!!! He should be reduced to PERPETUAL SLAVERY along with his Bishops too.
I will have to persevere in faith in Jesus Christ. I have no faith in the Catholic Church or in any Church or in any religion or any politicians! And it is because of this type of Pope sleeping in bed with rulers of this world, the Prince's of Darkness themselves, and in making and designing such Papal BS! Shame!! Shame!!! Shame on your bloody Catholic Church! I am ashamed to be baptized in this God Forsaken Church!!!!!!!!!
Pope Benedict and you big shots in your castles still believe it is justifiable "to reduce their persons" or any person "TO PERPETUAL SLAVERY."
TELL US BIG FOLKS WEARING THE BIG HATS AND LIVING IN PALACES RUNNING THE CHURCH INTO THE GROUND AND RUINING COUNTLESS LIVES OVER THE CENTURIES. WHERE DO YOU STAND NOW??????? Still lying to the "faithful" that the Church is infallible. Still lying and hiding pedophiles. You wonder why so many have left the Church. You must be totally blind to not see why. LOOK IN THE MIRROR. LOOK AT YOUR PAPAL BULLS. LOOK AT YOURSELF. STOP BLAMING LIBERALS. STOP BLAMING EVERYBODY AND EVERYTHING ELSE BUT YOUR OWN DAMN SELVES ON THE PITIFUL SHAPE OF THE WORLD. Look at what you have done as priests and Popes over the years to help create a world of shame and bloodshed and destruction. You are not following Christ. You are following the devil himself. Shame on you Catholic Bishops and Popes and your mindless idiot faithful followers of your lies. Shame on you! Shame on you! Shame on you!
Thank You Sister ! I have
Thank You Sister ! I have long advocated a Forum to recognize the most Virtuous adherents of these values . Perhaps a Mother Earth Pageant could be espoused to keep awareness high and show appreciation of those who personify the highest level of exemplary behavior in nurturing the well being of the human family .
Thank you to Joan as ever.
Thank you to Joan as ever. And of course it wasn't only the popes or the Catholic Church which thought that sunjugation and slavery of indigenous people and later of imported Africans was a good idea. I have to agree though that it is shocking that those conquest and slavery were promulgated by the leader (infallible leader?) of the largest and most powerful church of that time and this. I would agree with Grandmother Beatrice that it is time (overdue) for some formal apologies which might indeed help to heal the successors of the perpetrators as well and the successors of the immediate victims. As a woman priest (Church of England) I would also agree that it is telling that women have spoken out about this. I also believe that the Catholic Church has a long way to go as fare as women are concerned, but undoubtedly the church catholic also has further to go than might at first appear. Again many thanks and I shall be praying for Grandmother Beatrice and her group of women when I celebrate the Eucharist (in Rome!) tomorrow.
Dear Sara, No person of good
Dear Sara, No person of good will ever gloated at the sins of past Popes. Any person of power knows that power is to be treated with a sense of dignity to all peoples. Why is it we do not point out all the good people who have expierienced power on this earth beginning with JESUS CHRIST undobtedly the most powerful PERSON WHO EVER LIVED! There are many people of power in the past who used their power to enhance themselves and failed miserably in life. They did not care about anybody but themselves and now we come to today and only point to those who did no good on earth and castigate those in authority- to what end. The Catholic Church Hierarchy was established by JSUS CHRIST HIMSELF! Enough said. And Sara, it seems as though you too are wearing a feather in your cap because you will be appearing in Rome to celebrate the eucarist? How powerful!
I am a member of Spiritus
I am a member of Spiritus Christi Church in Rochester NY, which formed 10 years ago after its priests were excommunicated for welcoming LGTB people, allowing women to serve at the altar, and allowing non-Christian heathens like me to receive communion. Our community of 1,000+ is 1/3 non-Catholics (some of us even non-Christian) and 2/3 Catholics. We are now part of the ecumenical catholic community. We have 2 women priests and a couple of others in process on becoming priests. We are an awesome community with diverse ministries serving ex-offenders, the poor, those with mental health challenges, and others, locally and internationally, and we tithe 15% of our weekly income to organizations all over the world that are doing good work. We have about 250 kids in religious ed, and they are becoming amazing young people living lives dedicated to the well being of people all over the world. We have no endowment by choice - we simply live on what we take in each week and raise the rest as needed for special activities. E.g. we were recently gifted unexpectedly with $1 million from an anonymous couple to develop a community center, ex-offender residence, and more as a nucleus of hope in an inner city community.
I encourage all who seek a new model of spiritual community to consider breaking the ties that bind you - for that is all they do. You can be any type of church and spiritual individual/community you wish to be - you don't have to do what the Pope says you should do - bowing to him is like turning over responsibility for torture to those above you in a hierarchy - for some of the teachings of the Catholic Church are torture to friends of mine who are LGTB, divorced, or otherwise different than papally "approved" versions of humanity. One friend of mine from Spiritus literally experiences PTSD as a result of some of the "Christian values" and the resulting behaviours she has experienced over the years. Thank goodness she has had the Spiritus community to help her through her nightmares.
Have courage, live your values, and don't let anyone "above" you limit what you know in your heart is right behaviour - love and compassion to all, including yourself. Especially the vicious attacks on the worth of women by the Church - such violence against half of us on earth - have no excuse. Be the next Rosa Parks, Sister Joan (who should be Pope in my opinion), Reverend Mary Ramerman, Reverend Denise Donato, and Deacon Chava Redonnet (Chava is being ordained a Deacon this Sunday, on her way to priesthood!). Take courage, women and men, and live your vlaues - don't wait for change - make it happen!!!
As my hero Barack Obama inspired us to say and do, "Yes We Can!!!"
You are incorrect about the
You are incorrect about the makeup of that heretical community; it is obviously made up of 100% non-Catholics; no true Catholic would belong to such a group.
Uh-oh, Anonymous, there you
Uh-oh, Anonymous, there you go again! Don't you know the basic Catholic principle, "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic?"
Also which beatitude are you practicing here? Must be "Blessed are those who judge others, for God needs a little help in that department."
Oh, when will we all,
Oh, when will we all, including Rome, remember the gospel passage about a speck in the eye of the other contrasted with the double-sized "plank" in our own eye. I also think that would help human relations at all levels. Thanks for sharing the Wise Grandmothers'insight.
Every new event flowing from
Every new event flowing from Rome is basically "how can we avoid dealing the clergy problems? See what is happening with women religious!"
The Grandmothers are right. God bless them and all women as we remain faithful to the ministry of Jesus.
As an ex-catholic my prayer
As an ex-catholic my prayer is that every catholic search the truth-in scripture from the holy Bible Jesus says in John 14:6 "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME." This religion has fooled God's people (I was one!) into thinking that if they not only believe in God but follow excatly what the man made rules of catholicism say to do that we will get to heaven-that is NOT TRUE! I beg anyone still in bondage to this religion or that God is starting to put questions on your heart about "THE VIRGIN MARY" or communion or confirmation, etc that you seek the word of God-that is our responsibilty to seek the truth not listen to man--you will be surprised how little Mary is actually mentioned and that Joseph did have relations with her and that they did have other children- the Bible clearly states that Jesus was Mary's FIRST born-why wouldn't the Bible say ONLY born-PLEASE I LOVINGLY BEG OF YOU TO SEARCH THE TRUTH-JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY-HE IS THE ONE THAT DIED FOR US-NOT MARY and NOT THE CHURCH AND THEIR SILLY RULES THAT ARE A WASTE OF TIME- God loves us -HE SENT HIS ONLY SON TO SHOW US THAT-if we don't seek we are choosing hell- GOD BLESS AND PLEASE SEEK THE WORD OF GOD-WE CAN AND WILL UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE BEGGING HIM IN PRAYER TO HELP US UNDERSTAND!
Christian nations coming
Christian nations coming across waters with arms and priests to convert the heathens, tha pagans had to happen. It was inevitable. Does anyone today actually believe there is some sort of equivalence when comparing human sacrifice to that of what Jesus did? He did said to go and preach to all nations. Yes, many were converted after being conquered. But with the appearance of Our Lady of Guadelupe, they came on their own.
However, if you want to portray as Christianity or Catholicism as such an evil....you need to leave it. Go found your pantheistic group.
It is inevitable when a civilization more advanced in their industry and technology meets one of lessor means, that the lessor one will be conquered and absorbed, overwhelmed. Like it or not, that will occur and has well beyond human recording. If you read the Old Testament, you'll see people being shoved off, killed, wiped out, etc. God is not a bloody one wanting us to accomplish His will in this way, but He does work through us and He will not allow an evil to occur without bring out of it a greater good. If this isn't believed, then you have no faith.
It is a sad time when these things occur, but without these efforts many people would be living in darkness.
Read a book by Stephen B. Ambrose, "Crazy Horse and Custer". Near the end, it tells of an attempt to impose or garner some sort of peace. The government sent men to bring a few of the chiefs to Washington. The route they took was through all of the highly industrialized cities. It demonstrated the industrial power of the nation they were at war with. There was no other choice for the Native Americans after that trip.
If, Joan, you equate all religions as being equal, you are not a Catholic or a Christian.
Dear, dear Joan, if you had been Eve, it still would have happened exactly as it is recorded: a woman wanting more then she was given and more then she had a right to have.
Colin John Pius - It was
Colin John Pius - It was inevitable that Catholics would behave as murderers and thieves and subjugate people to slavery in an unchristian manner because the Pope promoted it, sanctioned it, and allowed it as is evidenced by his writing this Papal Bull!
Your sense, or lack of it, of what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ's teachings or "Catholic" and to insist that the Church be evil and to condone evil is nothing short of heresy and ignorance of the Word of God and the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Do you believe the Papal Bull has anything to do with true Faith in Jesus Christ? You seem to be saying that evil is ok even for the Church because some good may come out of it? So we should sanction slavery and approve of it in order to "convert" people to our faith?
Sr. Joan is not portraying the Church as such an evil. The Catholic Church, as evidenced by this Papal Bull exposes itself as partaking and promulgating the evil of slavery.
I think it's quite likely we
I think it's quite likely we will see another John the 23rd and a Third Vatican Council sooner than most think. the Holy Spirit is at work in all of this and judging by the way Catholic Fundamentalists are showing their colors and their lack of even the most basic understanding of Catholic theology, it will will probably happen soon. The Church is so much bigger than these reactionaries. Pathetic as their arguments are, I feel sorry for them. Christ's inclusive love extends to every person and they never will get any of the most basic teachings of what Christ expected His Church on Earth to be. Yes, there will be a woman Bishop of Rome. Yes, all clerical states will include female and male persons and will be open to options of marriage or celibacy, depending on the person's choice, and yes, inter-communion with all Christian denominations will be extended based on their baptism, not on what branch of Christian denomination they are. All of these things will happen and Christ's universal Church will be the Church he wants it to be. The era of the Holy Roman Empire Papacy is in its' final days and the last dying gasps can be heard around the world. Come Holy Spirit and act with speed.
Chris: From your keyboard
Chris: From your keyboard to....
That was a great paragraph. I will keep it and re-read it when I feel I'm losing hope.
Thank you.
You've been into the
You've been into the pschyedelic mushrooms again haven't you Chris? Now we can all see what happens when you go there.
Sister Joan tells us some
Sister Joan tells us some hard facts. We as Roman Catholics have a lot to be repentful for. Yet we also have a lot to be grateful for. We are loved by God Unconditionnally. Yet God must be very patient with us. It is no wonder so many of us are becoming Roaming Catholics!! Thank you Sister Joan.
The overturning of these
The overturning of these offensive Bulls is in the jurisdiction of A/B Burke ..as the chief judge of the Vatican Tribunal. If he can stop working videos for Randle Terry [a nutcase] he may start on the brief to rescind this garbage BULL... get busy Burke on rescinding evil promulgations .....
Joan and all those who
Joan and all those who support her should ask one question of themselves: Is the Catholic Church the one true church established by Jesus Christ and are the bishops the successors of the Apostles and is the Pope the successor of Peter? Further, do they accept the teaching of the Second Vatican Council: "... the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head. The pope's power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power." If you reject this teaching of the Second Vatican Council, you are not in full communion with the Church. Your purpose in remaining in the Church can only be to destroy it - and you're doing a good job of it. For your own peace of mind - and for the sake of the Church - please join or establish another protestant sect, complete with holy women priests and bishops - and perhaps, a female pope who will depart from the Scriptures once and for all and approve of all kinds of sexual deviancy, abortion, gay marriages, etc., etc., etc. I say to all Joans who should recall the earliest times in Church history, not just those they find convenient to recall: "Roma locutus est; causa finita est." (For the uninitiated: "Rome has spoken; the case is closed.")
To the Grandmothers-- God
To the Grandmothers-- God Bless you and yours.
Thank you Sister Joan. You are my hero and I have all your books. I am a grandmother and I pray that you keep up the good work for the sake of my granddaughters and grandsons.
I pray that the grandmothers
I pray that the grandmothers do better than I in receiving a reply from Rome. They seem to forget that what they do to others, they also do to Christ.
Rome instituted an apostolic
Rome instituted an apostolic visitation to seminaries recently to investigate the quality of life there as well. The visitation also questioned the type of formation that these seminarians received and how it prepared them to deal with life as celibate priests. Seems to me that the Holy See is dealing equitably with women and men in terms of visitations.
I fear that the real issue at heart here is not concern over what the visitation may uncover or what the visitation will ultimately recommend. Rather, it is a denial of the fact that the Holy See has the authority to institute such a visitation in the first place. These sisters are looking for any excuse that they can find to negate the authority of the Holy Father and to excuse them from their promises of obedience.
Dear Clint Green, Obedience
Dear Clint Green, Obedience is not in the vernacular of many Orders these days! As the Blessed Virgin Mary has said in many of her visitations to earth " the Holy Father will have much to suffer " one could not possibly have thought that the suffering would be caused by Catholics from Orders created by and for Women. You are right; Many Women (Nuns) do not believe that the vow of Obedience was meant for them!!
Thank you Joan, for your
Thank you Joan, for your honest response with time, research and respect to an embarrasing truth. Lead us on!
Thank you Joan. I admire your
Thank you Joan. I admire your courage in bringing this issue forward. It is an interesting fact that the Vatican and the papacy has yet to publicly and explictly acknowledge that the Holy See ever issued the bull Dum diversas of 1452. The damnable language "to capture, vanquish, and subdue" and "reduce their persons to perpetual slavery" was reafirmed in other bulls in 1455, 1456, 1481, and 1510. Four papal bulls were issued after Cristobal Colon's (Columbus's) return to Christendom from the Bahamas. These called for the propagation "of the Christian empire" (christiani imperii) and for the "subjugation" of "barbarous nations." It was on the basis of the imperial, rapacious, and greed-ridden mindset reflected in these documents that Indigenous nations and peoples have been considered subject to the ultimate dominion (later 'statehood') of the first Christian sovereign to supposedly "discover" non-Christian lands, or subject to the political successor of that first Christian monarch or svoereign. Any inhabited lands in the world not in the possession of a Christian prince were subject to this policy.
For a history of how the papal bulls of the fifteenth century influenced the development of United States Indian law and policy, see "Pagans in the Promised Land: Decoding the Doctrine of Christian Discovery," by Steven T. Newcomb (Fulcrum, 2008).
We feel sad that many women
We feel sad that many women today must wear long black cloaks and head coverings; never go out except with a male relative, and lead very restricted lives. etc. I was in a similar group but could never go out alone with a male relative, but only a female dressed like me. Those rules were Vatican blessed,for religious women only. Until Vatican II that is. Why did I join the convent? Probably "encouraged" by those good people who had gone before—we all meant well..
Ex nun, happily married.
the Spirit is at work.... why
the Spirit is at work.... why are we so hard-hearted??
The Spirit is at work... why
The Spirit is at work... why are we sometimes so hard-hearted? We need to be open to the truth... even if it is ugly!
An interesting quote from the
An interesting quote from the article:
"No decision should be made," the Native Americans tell us, "that does not take into account its affect [sic] on the next 10 generations."
I truly wish people had thought like this before they pulled apart Catholic sanctuaries after Vatican II. In my country, such places were built by very poor Irish immigrants - and they were pulled down without a second thought. One priest even used a pneumatic drill to destroy the High Altar and Reredos of the Cathedral parish.
I don't understand it. How did this happen - the great iconoclasm of the 20th century?
Dear Sister Joan You have a
Dear Sister Joan
You have a healing gift... An ability to open the doors of the church to possibilities and relationships. The more that I open myself to the Holy Spirit, the more that I realize that the most important commandment is to "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and soul and love thy neighbor as thyself. The Church over the centuries has forgotten that message and has put fear into the hearts and souls of the people. Some of the responses to this marvelous masterpiece were self protective. The ability to recognize all creation as worthy of God's love is the most important premise of all. The promulgation of the idea that everyone who is not Catholic is going to Hell has been the most evil idea of all that has been spread by the Church. Unless the Church is willing to reduce its hierarchy and spread the message of love and comfort that God is willing to create within us, we have missed the mark.
Sister Joan, I too highly
Sister Joan, I too highly applaud your continuing ministry of equality and respect for all peoples, not just women. And for those males out there that think we women want to take over the church, be advised we only want balance–something the RChurch is sorely missing. I was baptized as priest, prophet and king and I take that seriously. We are all priests of God to bring the fullness of God's love to all beings we may chance to meet. As a patriarchal institution, the Roman church has produced both good and bad codes, guides for living. The problem is that the bad ones don't go away and issues like indulgences, not excommunicating the pedophile priests (as would seem proper) and continuing to ignore that God made us in God's likeness, both female and male, God made us.
I also applaud churches like Spiritus Christus who really do represent what I believe Jesus wanted in the church that was begun after he showed us the way of right living. I no longer can call my self Roman Catholic—it is too painful. And articles like the one by S. Joan this last week only show that there is no real concern for any marginalized person to be truly respected as one of God's children and equal to receiving all the gifts of sacramental faith.
Keep going S. Joan and know that there are many of us who hold you in our hearts and pray for your ongoing and open-minded ministry, faith and wisdom, and questioning of the "institutional" part of the church. I guess the men, priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals and any popes who have trouble with what you have to say, forget that Jesus walked among all peoples especially those not considered socially acceptable to be priests, prophets and kings. Peace, Kerrie Weitzel
Dear Sr. Joan, You are such a
Dear Sr. Joan,
You are such a bright light and ray of hope to many of us! How can we ever change the present if we don't understand the past? Some people prefer the stance of the ostrich and call that obedience. Who are they obedient to, the Church or Jesus? Jesus did not come here to establish a "new church" but to show us how to live and he did that most graciously in the Beatitudes. How many of the Beatitudes were followed in the Papal Bull? How many are followed when women are not treated equal or Homosexuals or or? Our Creator does not love us all equally except women... our Creator loves ALL equally we are All made in the image and likeness of a God who is both female and male and yet soooo much more. Peace to you Sr. Joan in all you do. It is people like yourself and Richard Rohr that keep me "hanging in there". You speak the truth that many are too afraid to hear!
You suggest a dichotomy where
You suggest a dichotomy where none is possible. Christ and His Church are one. Jesus is the Head, the Church is the body, as Ephesians 5:23 reminds us, "Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body". This is consistant teaching from the time of the Apostles until now. To obey one is to obey the other. Thus, there can be no distinction between Christ and His Church.
One certainly can be critical of the leaders of the Church, who, at times, deserve our criticism. When they are too silent in the face of the moral relativism in our world today, when they accept the silly adage "I'm okay, you're okay", yes they need to be challenged and called to account. But, when they preach the consistant Truth of the Church, in other words, when they preach Christ Himself, we must listen. For, when the Church speaks, it is Christ Himself speaking to us.
As for the Papal Bulls cited above, how is that news to anyone? I distinctly remember being in sixth grade and studying world history (at a rural public school, mind you!) and learning about the Line of Demarcation that separated the lands that could be claimed by Portugal from the lands that Spain could claim. It was a Pope who established that line and, by extension, allowed for the conquest of the New World by the Spanish and Portuguese (and later the English and French, but that's another story). Thanks be to God that he permitted that conquest, it spread Christianity to the shores of the New World and established the Faith in America. It permitted trade to continue after the Turks conquered Constantinople in 1453 and subsequently cut off European trade routes with East Asia. It spurred an entire age of discovery and exploration.
Did it have negative impacts on native peoples, certainly. But, one has to recall that the Pope and others like him, were men of their time. They were limited in knowledge of the world around them. They made mistakes on political issues, but not on issues of doctrine and dogma (of which, these bulls are not concerned). It is the height of arrogance to presume to pass judgment on history -- we did not live in their times and were not faced with their concerns. Is this not what the liberal establishment demands of us always? To put ourselves in the place of the other and try to see things from his point of view? Why can we not do that with this Pope and the conquistadors of the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries? Is it because they are European men?
Sr. Joan speaks only the truth that backs up her own point of view. She, like so many of her ilk, are only concerned with protecting their own beliefs and way of life. She is happy to exploit history and pervert the Church's teaching if it will confirm her and her allies in their own disobedience.
Shouldn’t Sister Joan have
Shouldn’t Sister Joan have said “Native American” rather than “Indian” grandmother? The Oglala Lakota Nation hails from South Dakota, USA, not Andhra Pradesh, India. I am stunned that a touchstone of Political Correctness like her, who is not at all shy about calling others out for lacking PC, could have slipped up like that? And I’m very, very disappointed.
Good point! I am glad that
Good point! I am glad that you brought it to our attention. It is something that needed to be corrected. Yet, please don't overeact and read too much into the wrong adjectives being used. Make the point in charity rather then judgement.
Here we have more of the same
Here we have more of the same old/same old: a creepy male church hierarchy engineering “sinful effects” and guileless nuns manifesting “the work of the Spirit”. Any Roman Catholic feminism reading church history this way sucks!
I took a 2-semester Latin
I took a 2-semester Latin America history class my senior year in college more than 30+ years ago. I recall the professor summarizing the Spanish conquest with the phrase "God, Glory, and God --- and not necessarily in that order!"
Post new comment