Let's examine the national conscience before moving on

How can tricking a suspected terrorist into giving info by causing him to believe that a colleague of his has been executed be considered immoral? How can such deceptions to discover life and death risks to others-innocents be wrong?

Please forward Sr. Chittister's article to our President. He has publicly indicated that he has been informed by and respects Catholic teaching on social justice and human rights. His present advisers may not have included these in recent times. Thank you Sister Joan for reminding us all about our country's principles.

I think that President Obama does not choose to prosecute the Bush administration for its torture policies--at least at this point. And I agree with what I intuit as his reasons. Obama wants to achieve great things for our country, first in terms of healthcare reform. We can see from the Republican responses to this one issue that they will seize upon any gesture of Obama's as an attack and blow it way out of proportion. If he were to condemn Bush and Cheney at this point, the nation's healthcare reform could well turn out to be a travesty. This is a very bad state of affairs, but it is not the fault of our elected leadership. And I find this fact a little bit comforting.

Sister Chittister:
"as if we may simply be pretending to be concerned"...I think we are. When I read the words attributed to Jesus and try to apply them to the right actions we should take, they seem to be only part of a "righteous cloak" we all put on to join our Christian brothers and sisters on a Sunday morning when we "pretend" to worship, through pompous ritual and ecstatic abandon, depending on the type of church we are in. When I read the Shroud of Turin history to my daughter at 10 years of age, that it had the image of a real man who had been wrapped in a shroud, she said in unbelievable amazement, "You mean that Jesus was a real man? I always thought everybody in church was just pretending about him in Church! and I like to pretend!" Maybe that is the extent of what the majority of citizens of this nation really believe. "From where I stand"... to plagerize your favorite phrase, in many high circles of our political life, (and I don't yet include our President in that circle) that is precisely what political theater is about. It is obvious that all of the "issues" from too many guns, reluctance to consider health reform a moral issue, and too many sick and starving children are not to be solved by considering Jesus' commandments on how to love one another. Any political leader, like the Scotsman who showed mercy to the terrorist who was dying in jail but allowed him to go free to die at home, would surely be tarred and feathered or worse if allowed.

What a wonderfully powerful article. Thanks so much for getting to the heart of the matter.

I agree that we must have discussion as to the conscience of our nation as it
applies to war in all its forms. I believe we lose our respect for ourselves and others lose respect for us, when we allow those who govern us to wage war on our behalf. Torture is another tactic of war and has been so blatantly used to extract information from those whom we fear. I do not understand how it can be dismissed.
If we do not examine our national conscience and do try to "put it behind us and go on," the cruelty we subjected on others will surely be repeated. The national conscience is a concern but the individual conscience of those who make decisions on our behalf must also be examined. We need to know and understand those whom we fear. We need good bridge builders who have the wisdom, skills, and courage to take actions that invite others to the table including leaders of other nations who appear ignorant of world history or whom we fear because their culture is different and we lack understanding.
I pray for our President and all those who represent us that they will continue to have those attributes needed to be the bridge builders our global home needs so very much and for all leaders to feel welcomed to the table.

How's this for an excuse? "Yes your honor,I killed my wife and children,but I realize now that I've been caught that I was wrong. Please release me so we can look ahead,rather than at the past."

Joan,
Anyone who has read David Korten (THE GREAT TURNING and WHEN CORPORATIONS RULE THE WORLD)has to ask themselves if civilization has ever been civilized.

Civilization began after all when dominators took control over the cities, partnership was no longer esteemed, and women were reduced to subservience. It has continued with one empire following another and genuine earth communities have continued to exist only in regions not yet touched by civilization. Empires will always bring about their own destruction by domination that eventurally becomes excessive.

Here's a rebuttal of sorts to Obama's excuse;
"Yes your honor,I murdered my wife and children,but now that I've been caught,I'm deeply sorry.I'd like to now focus on my future,rahter than dwelling on past mistakes."

Sister Chittister: I am in complete agreement and an avid fan of your writing. I am not defending our President per se. However, domestically, so many are suffering in our own country,all over this valley of tears, in Darfur, in our wars....can you write about how the President is supposed to take care of our people who have been systematically targeted over the past 8 years by lack of reform and no policy or incompetent policy?? I watch President Obama try to move the boulder of Sisyphus in addressing our healthcare and economic problems. Are we asking too much of one man? What are your suggestions on how we should proceed on so many fronts with so many simultaneous challenges??? Sincerely yours, Andrew John

While I agree with most of Joan Chittister's evaluation of the country's problems in admitting and dealing with past incidents of torture, I think that Obama's decision not to do a great deal of hangwringing over the what was done during the Bush adminsitration is a wise decision. It is not "denying and moving on" as she states but rather letting go of an admittedly ugly past in order to go forward with agenda that are far more pressing, both domestically and internationally, like health care, improving our relations with the rest of the world and dealing with the economic crisis not only at home but world-wide. Moreover it seems that the Justice Department is quietly moving toward dealing with the most glaring incidents of torture and false arrest in a timely manner without disturbing the forward action on the more pressing issues before us.

Many questions....
How did we obtain this "land that I love?"
How often have the rich and powerful abused the poor and powerless, in violation of laws, and gotten away with it?
How innocent are civilians who support their governments in unjust wars?
How must I react when my neighbor is in danger?
Obama's speech at the UN must be tempered by the realization that another Bush could reverse course again, particularly if there is no accountability for Bush II, Cheney, et al.
Are US policies, treaties and commitments permanent, or just the convenience of the moment?
Some of the present Islamic policies seem to be a reflection of the Inquisition. So is the investigation of US religious women.

Sister Joan in her article “ Let's examine the national conscience before moving on” seems to be lamenting the fact that the current administration is not doing enough to “punish” those individuals and agencies i.e. Dick Cheney, the CIA etc. for their choice of interrogation techniques used on terror suspects. The article then goes on to imply that this issue is burdening the national conscience and must be dealt with before moving on. Of all the issues that could weigh on our national conscience I would think that the relative silence among the Catholic elites and opinion leaders regarding the daily abortion rate in this country would rank far higher in both scale and magnitude.

Nevertheless there are several weaknesses in the article that need to be addressed. The first is historical context. Sister has the luxury of writing her article with the comforting knowledge that since 911 there has been no further incident. Before dismissing this fact to quickly it is worth noting that at the time the national perception was on of unbridled fear and a consument demand from the people for protection. This perception knew no political boundaries as both Democrat and Republican were of one mind. Not only that but the shear horror of 911 and the continuing threats and ultimatums clearly demonstrated an intention to inflict further harm and of even greater destruction.
It is against this backdrop of reality where an entire nation and its communities are threatened that any honest assessment on the appropriate use of force must be based. Secondly the techniques used for the national self defense of over 300 million people were restrained and targeted to a very specific number of terror suspects . To compare this to the Inquisition or to the Nuremburg protocols has little if any. historical basis but serves only polemics.
Before executing final Judgment, Sister Joan it might be helpful in walking a little in the others shoes i.e. Cheney and those multitude of other nameless people in positions of national defense. What does she do when a terrorist has information on the destruction of a plane, a school, or even a city ? What if we institute policies that hoble our defenders and thousands ( or even several) die as a direct result? What happens to the National Conscience then?

Wonderful article! This points out how much more we humans need to develop our awareness. When we feel threatened we become as barbarians rather than allowing the message of Jesus and of Buddha influence our behavior. We still have so far to go.

Sister Joan,

A good information extractor, and yes, I know some which is why I remain anonymous, not for my sake but theirs, can get information without torture. While fiction, the way Jethro Leroy Gibbs gets information on "NCIS" is a fairly acurate portrayal. At least that's what my alphabet agency friends say.

But there are times information is needed quickly, and to continue the NCIS example, that's when Mossad agent on loan Ziva David may be called in to do a little less friendly pursuading, but still far short of torture.

Since you, Sister, brought up the Brits, let's continue with them. If you wanted to see real torture, note what British Security Forces did to the IRA, including a friend of mine who, for his safety as he is a dissident still on active service, remains nameless. Go to Ardoyne and the Bogside and see how the PSNI even now abuses the Taigs, as we are called. Your rather English-sounding last name would give ye no protection. In fact, ye might find yourself caught between the locals thinking you were a grass and the coppers knowing you are a nun.

Cordially,

The Padre Who Came In From The Cold and Went Back Out

I couldn't agree more. Sister Joan has said it so well. I would add this: The entire structure of this torture "program" must be COMPLETLY exposed and those at the top to those at the bottom must be named and perhaps those most responsible should be publicly castigated, if not charged with criminal actions. Yes, we can "put it behind us and move on" but only when the entire nation is clearly aware of what happened, why it happened and who was ultimately responsible. Airing dirty laundry? No, it has already been seen. Now must seek the source of the filth and avow never to let it happen again! And we must apologize to the world and to the victims for our inhuman behavior and the betrayal of our American principles.

I maintain when we as a nation and as individuals label other human beings with terms like "enemy combantant" or "terrorist" or "extremeist" or "inmate"...or any word that makes them against us in some fashion, we can more easily justify why torture is necessary. They are "less" human in a sense, so we can find a reason why torture is acceptable. This is indeed a dangerous abyss we jump from when we engage in such behaviors. For if we, as a nation or as individuals, find we don't like a certain group of people, we can begin to label them, and then wheeled power over them in inhuame ways in order to remain in control.

I think if we sell our soul in the name of security what do we have to protect for we will have lost what is most important in the process, our integrity.

We need this investigation to reclaim our soul as Americans. If we don't have the courage to do so, we surrender so much more than any terrorist could ever take.

Joan,
I certainly agree with the spirit of which you speak, but from my seat here in Iraq, the story is more like a silted river: occassional rivulets of clarity, mostly muddy.
The question becomes, from this point of view, "How do you deal honorably with a ruthless and dishonorable foe?"
Particularly one whose stated intent is to induce our society to "convert or die." Or at most take second class citizenship status.
And let us not argue that this is not clearly stated in the Q'ran. Just as we cannot deny that Christianity has an Apostolic Charge to every nation, kindred, people.
But still, your point is well taken. As Christians or Americans we must act honorably, no mattter what the opposition does.
To that end, I believe that all should be held accountable for these actions -- including the highest level of leadership. Otherwise we will have another My Lai investigation -- a minor officer goes to jail even though his superiors participated in the orders and directly and personally in the massacre. As though he was alone in killing five hundred people.
The thing that drives non-Americans crazy is the the "wink,wink,nudge,nudge" of the American Hypocritical Society.
I certainly supported Obama in the election. I pray he does not dissapoint us.

What can we "little-folk" do? It's pretty clear that elections and protests are ineffective against the powerful and their interests. I've never felt so ashamed, angry, and powerless in my life.

I pray to the Holy Spirit to guide us.

Sister Joan is absolutely right. Cheney, like McNamara (only worse), will never face justice no matter what Holder may want. Obama will conclude this "panel" by saying that we need to "look forward, not backward". It is unfortunate that high class criminals do not face the same kind of justice as low class criminals.

Today, Mr. Obama is in Pittsburgh and proclaiming that Iran has a secret nuclear facility buried under a mountain where the government can develop enough enriched uranium to make a nuke a year.

We sit atop the most amazingly expensive pile of weapons ever and tell those without them, without even standing armies, that their countries are too barbaric, roguish, or secretive to develop similarly horrific instruments of destruction.

As if our country were civilized enough to restrain itself from using them "inappropriately." Many people in my American community insist loudly with words like Hannity's, Limbaugh's, and Beck's words that nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a virtuous maneuver of war and that doing so again to such places in Iraq or Afghanistan would be a "good" way to solve our problems.

The same folks, who are the great majority in this town, supported all of Mr. Bush's machinations during his presidency (and before as the killingest governor of Texas). They'd like a pure gold statue of him (and Mr. Reagan) on the mall. The daily paper here is saturated with venomous vituperation toward Mr. Obama and anyone else who agrees with him or any of the so-called liberal positions he's taken on any topic.

Sister points out that "We have argued for years whether not just one but two distinct and equally savage atomic bombs were necessary to end World War II. The argument in favor always leans for its justification on the notion that more U.S. soldiers would have been lost otherwise. No official argument, however, turned on whether or not the targeting of an entire civilian population was either necessary or moral."

The argument in this Florida town never conforms to logic or rules of debate. It always ends with lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification. States' rights are only for the United States. Arguments on such issues sometimes end with acts of serious retribution aimed at those so bold as to assume a position not in agreement with the majority. I live in Limbaugh-Land.

So, I am in perfect agreement with Sister on proposing an old-fashioned examination of conscience for our nation. Some of the horny folks in this town might be water-boarded into repentance, sorrow for sin, and private aural confession. Many would be willing to die and go to hell rather than make satisfaction. And water-boarding is doubtless a mortal sin for anyone involved in it.

What are we to do? Nailing up "Repent" signs along the roadway is hardly efficacious. I know the weed and the wheat parable, but trying to survive in a land choking with weeds isn't easy. And then there's the temptation to volunteer to stoke the fires on Judgment Day. Glad I was never ordered to torture anyone. It's apparently in me.

Sr. Joan: Thank you.
As a traditional Catholic (not a Republican) I agree with you. You state: "The president, rather than claiming moral outrage, has made it clear that he would rather "put it behind us and go on." Which is, at best, a questionable precedent to set. A position like that can surely be taken in the future to mean that anything we can get away with in times to come will be fine as long as we stop it when it's discovered and get on with the next chapter in U.S. history."
I could not agree more.
I may disagree with you about religious life and the ordinatino of women, but this makes sense to me.

Another issue on which the Obama administration has not admitted U.S. mistakes of the past is the Palestine/Israel situation. Clearly the U.S. has not been impartial. Continued U.S. aid to Israel despite Israel's defiance of demands that it stop seizing Palestinian land is incomprehensible, unless one suspects undue influence from an Israel lobby.

This morning (9-26-09) we learned that Obama denounced Iran for continuing its nuclear program, but he did not acknowledge that Israel introduced nuclear arms into the Middle East, dangerously inciting terrorism by doing so.

Regarding Middle East diplomacy, the Obama administration has not brought change.

Wow...how could you not mention the Vatican visitation of women religious and equate that with torture? You missed one, Joan. I was also equally shocked that you somehow were able to bring yourself to criticize your Lord and Savior, the Chosen One, Barack Obama! How did the editors let a criticism of Obama get through?

The British journalist didn't know what he was talking about. Having read the book, JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters, by James W. Douglass, the conclusion is that the CIA assassinated President Kennedy because he understood that the only way for the world to continue was disarmament. He was non-zero-sum before it was cool. President Obama is saying that torture will not be policy on his watch. That is corrective.
"We are summoned from the events of history, to perform the tasks God has assigned this day." -Fr. Rudolph Schneckenburg

There is some benefit that can be derived from collectively pausing to reflect on what has gone before, the good and the not-so-good alike. If certain CIA agents went beyond the Bush Administration's rules regarding interrogation, then perhaps they should be prosecuted. At the same time, however, that reflection, that discussion, must also take into account the value of the intelligence gathered by the alleged torture. While we cannot say with complete certainty that, in every circumstance, the ends justify the means, neither I think should we reflexively say that the ends never justify the means.

The United States is involved in a war, regardless of what the current Administration chooses to call it. It is a war, not for money or power, oil or land, influence or prestige, but rather for the very survival of the nation, and Western Civilization in general. The enemy targets innocent civilians, men, women and children, and act without mercy. The enemy actively teaches its adherents that to die while in the act of murdering the innocent means instant reward in paradise. The enemy is merciless and heartlessly cruel, beheading innocent hostages on television, punishing women who are victims of rape severely, at times with death. The enemy has no compunction about murdering innocent people while they work, or shop. They have no hesitation about murdering innocent children on the way to, or from, or at, school. Consider that we take for granted that we will be safe at Disney World or PS 132, on the school bus or tour bus, at the mall or at the office or at the grocery store. Consider, at the same time, that these are the very places the enemy would most like to strike us at.

The enemy is intent on two ends, first, converting as many people as possible to Islam, by whatever means are necessary, and second, the death of every infidel who refuses to convert, thereby establishing the ideal Islamic rule of the planet under Sharia Law. To accomplish this, the enemy must destroy Western Civilization, either through conversion and child birth, resulting in a slow, but steady, Islamification of a society (helped by the West's propensity to contracept itself into extinction); or through violence and the threat of violence, resulting in a more rapid Islamification. But make no mistake, that this is the ultimate goal of the radical Islam we fight.

I say all of this in order to offer an alternative reflection. This is the future we fight against: women treated as second class citizens, forced to cover themselves in public, and never permitted to leave their home without a man to escort them; thieves punished by having their hands cut off; women and girls punished for "allowing themselves" to be raped; free speech forbidden; religious freedom forbidden; widespread persecution of any and all who dare to speak out against the religious fascists who govern the society; homosexuality a capital offense; unmarried pregnancies a capital offense; the death of Christianity, Judaism, and all other global religions; innocent men, women and children executed without mercy or trial.

This is the future that the Bush Administration warned us of, and tried to protect us from. It is important, essential, for us to remember this whenever we settle ourselves down to discuss, debate and reflect upon issues such as torture and interrogation.

Dear Sr. Joan, One can only guess but don't we all have precedents to cover up? Must we confess all to everyone all the time? Do we show up in Beijing when our Vatican Superiors as a matter of Faith and Morals do not want any Catholics to be in attendance and then pass it off as a matter of primary conscience as opposed to disobedience. Seems as though Benedictines can do anything they want in the Catholic Church as long as long as they follow their convenient consciences! Continue to beat your drum Sister! Every body else is wrong and you are right!

What about the evil of abortion? Why don;t you ever address that issue. There are millions of babies killed each day and yet your silence is defeaning.

As the sleazy senior partner from Ally McBeal used to say as he'd dismiss himself from accountability, often a second or two after saying something terribly offensive.

"Bygones!"

Or as the lawyers for Dioceses and Religious orders frequently say on the steps of the courthouse after having paid a large settlement to a survivor of sex abuse by priests or religious:

"We're very glad to put this behind us so we can re-focus on our mission... "

Real accountability goes out the window in the name of "looking ahead" or "moving
forward." It's a trend, a sort of ethical "Get out of jail free" card.

Those who forget history... don't have to be accountable for anything and to anyone.

Excellent!!! Well said!!!

Right on, Sr. Joan....It's the same ole, same ole adage....might makes right
and we go on and on being the "good guys" killing at will, desimating nations
and people....as long as we are economically, politically and militeraly
invincable. Oh yes, we preceive ourselves as a Christian Nation.

Thank you Sister Chiiister.

I fear the questions you've asked, the questions that are core issues for much of what is changing in our country, will go un answered. But perhaps that is what is meant to be, because those are questions that each citizen of this country, each citzen of the world must open their hearts to answering. More than 50 percent of the US voting public voted twice for the previous leadership who really made it clear their agenda was power first, integrity second. And now we've elected a leader whose pragmitism while helpful in some instances looks to making nice instead of asking his heart what will heal this terrible soul wound to our country.

How refreshing it is to hear the voice of integrity about our country's neglect of honesty, compassion, and humanity.

As usual, Sr. Joan has a way of challenging complacency and calls all of us to think and to pray that we as a nation will be able to live up to the standards upon which this nation was founded.

The proper place to do such self-analysis is among the members of the political party then in power. Otherwise,unhappily though it may be, everyone will see our efforts as political aggression of the in-party against the out-party. The ideal is that we all become people of prayer. God will then reveal to us our moral condition.

JR