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PDF versionApostolic Visitation: Why Bother? Why be Bothered?
by Joan Chittister on Jun. 23, 2010
The question is, why bother? That’s the question rumbling under an otherwise polite attempt to participate in a process based on non-participation.
While the world goes on to bigger things–like oil spills that threaten an entire body of water in addition to all the beaches and marshes and wildlife and families they harbor; while women religious themselves go steadfastly on serving the poor, working for justice, and attempting to make peace among peoples of every faith and culture; and while the church universal continues to deal with the effects of sex scandals everywhere, church embezzlements everywhere and the closing of churches and missions worldwide, the investigation, inquisition, and/or evaluation of women religious in the United States–whatever the euphemisms for it–continues on its weary way. Oblivious, it appears, to all those other things.
No one seems to be sure why the investigation is really being done, except that to declare an Apostolic Visitation signals that someone somewhere has already decided that something is wrong. More than that, no one seems to know where it will really go or how it will end: a report in a drawer; maybe; one more document on religious life after over 1500 years of history, perhaps; a set of foreign “do’s and don’ts” for adult women who have freely given and freely spend their lives for the sake of what one congregation, the Sisters of St Joseph, so poignantly calls “the dear neighbor” and others, Benedictines, for instance, call “the search for God.”
But however uncertain the purpose and end of such an investigation, two other things are patently clear: First, it is costing over a million dollars to send teams of strangers into convents and monasteries across the land for five day analyses of the local religious culture. And second, however benignly the whole process may turn out to be, one sentence shows up in every official explanation of the process – one sentence that continues to raise questions about the standard operational procedures of the church itself. It reads, from a number of news reports on the subject, “The process will conclude in 2011 with a final report to Cardinal Rode. The report will not be made public or shared with the religious communities.”
What? The report won’t be shared with the communities being investigated? The patient will not be told the diagnosis? The accused will not be told the crime? The paralytic will not be asked whether or not crutches can really solve her particular situation?
NCR: February 3-16, 2012
Subscribe to NCR to get all the news and special features that aren't always available online. In this issue:
- US News: Bishops Host Conference on Immigration
Conference fields advocates' questions on law, policy
- Special Section: Deacons. Serving as parish administrator; roles of wives; and more
- Study: Black Catholics are more engaged
New study by Notre Dame researcher about parish involvement in America
Oh, come now.
No wonder there’s so much gall about such a study.
It isn’t that this is not a period of institutional evaluations. It isn’t that nuns haven’t been part of them over and over again for years–in schools, in hospitals, in professional organizations, in their own congregations. On the contrary. These things are standard operating procedure these days. But not like this.
In professional evaluations of member groups, the process is marked by four distinct dimensions: 1. A preliminary self-study, 2. An evaluation by peers, 3. An exit report and 4. A written report that responds to each area of the group’s own self evaluation materials.
The preliminary self-study covers every area the membership organization defines as essential or important to its being an accredited institution in the evaluating association. It cites what the membership of the group being evaluated defines as its strengths, its present weaknesses and its plans for the future. The visitation process, by making the evaluation a joint endeavor between a local group and its external evaluators, honors the insights and commitment of the group itself. And all of this is done against a backdrop of common goals both shaped and shared by the association and this particular unit of it.
But, in this case, there was no preliminary or jointly planned self-study.
An evaluating team made up of peers from the same system does not bring apples to judge oranges. Engineers do not grade English departments; high school teachers do not pronounce on grade school curriculums; pharmacists do not write recommendations for health food programs. These evaluators are people who are themselves both expert in the field and grappling with the same problems somewhere else. The message is a clear one: We’re all in this together. Let’s see what your experience and mine have to share with one another.
But new understandings of how best to live a vowed life in a modern society have grown up since Vatican II–and been approved by Rome. It is unclear how many of the visitators themselves have lived these current forms.
An on-site exit report and dialogue about the visitators’ immediate perceptions of the professional health of the group in question is common. It brings a kind of closure to the process.
But to have no idea at all of the immediate concerns or commendations of outside observers at the end of the process, leaves in its wake more the taste of an invisible threat than a sense of mutual achievement.
Finally, in most professional evaluations, the group has the opportunity to make a written response to the team’s official report in order to explain why some of the recommendations–good as they may be for others of its kind–cannot or does not apply to this group at this time.
From where I stand, a secret report is no report at all. When evaluators are allowed to make “reports” that are never seen by the people or programs about which they are “reporting,” anything can be said by anybody–without cause and without proof. Without challenge and without joint resolution. It brings with it no accountability at all from the evaluators themselves, either for its facticity or its applicability to the circumstances of any particular group, let alone all of them.
In that case, there’s no reason to do an investigation at all. The so-called report can be written before the visitators even visit. In fact, why bother?
But there is another question, equally important, that demands an answer, too. That question is “Why would anyone be bothered about such an ill-defined process?” And the answer to that question is a simple one: an Apostolic Visitation carries in its wake the canonical possibility that a community’s superior can be removed without explanation, or the community itself can be suppressed, or outside administrators can be appointed and installed without community approval. It can, in other words, change a community’s entire life on the basis of a report they have never seen.
Clearly, religious–in fact, any group of people anywhere-- have a right to be concerned about the effects on them of a process that allows them to be convicted of something of which they were never told they were accused.
I'd be more sympathetic to
I'd be more sympathetic to the author's position if it didn't call to mind the rather consistent "circling of the wagons" against all and any who would dare to interfere with the "family business" of women's religious orders.
I guess it is not surprising that individual survivors, SNAP, and other advocacy organizations have found the doors firmly shut in their faces when dealing both with LCWR and with individual religious superiors. Fr. Tom Doyle has commented that the walls put up by orders of nuns between themselves and abuse survivors equal or exceed those erected by many dioceses at their worst.
If emissaries of the Vatican who by sheer inertia must carry some weight experience such actual and rhetorical resistance it is no surprise that 'mere' laity who've been victimized by sisters are shut out of serious dialogue.
If and when Sr. Joan can show us that this resistence to scrutiny isn't just more of the same treatment dealt to other 'outsiders' who would dare to question her sisters, her arguments will become much more credible.
Were that to happen, religious sisters might gain the sympathy and earn the empathy of the survivor community, who certainly know well what it is to run into the walls put up by the Cardinals and the Vatican.
However as it stands, the references to 'karma' in that community will probably continue.
Consider this; the sex abuse
Consider this; the sex abuse scandal that is rocking the Church is exposed, no longer hidden, and in full view of all. Each day produces more information. That the Apostolic Visitation's report will remain secret smacks of past practice to keep everything "out of sight and out of mind," much like the scandal. If the report itself sheds light on abuse or opportunities for abuse then all the more reason for it to be out in the open.
I think Sister Joan's description of how evaluative processes work is spot on, having been evaluator and evaluated. However, our reports were not secret from the evaluated, and as one of the evaluated I always knew what the issues were and what I needed to work on.
In a sense, Sr. Joan is right
In a sense, Sr. Joan is right when she asks, “Why bother?”
The former era of “nun factories” producing teachers for Catholic schools, professors for Catholic colleges, and nurses for Catholic hospitals passed with Vatican II, and there is no way it will return. That was followed by the present era of reformed nuns unsuccessful (for so very many historic houses of white religious women at least) in recruiting a successor generation to carry their mission onwards. One failed business model has, in other words, replaced another.
In Darwinian fashion, only the fittest of the religious houses will survive. All the rest will go on to live in history books.
So maybe a Vatican investigation is useful just to discover why all the deadenders are deadenders and who and where they are. What’s the need, later, to bother them overmuch about notions of failure as they travel their remaining short path to extinction? Isn’t it better to let them die off in peace? Isn’t it better not to confront them with bad news they don’t want to hear and, anyway, can’t do anything about once it’s heard?
When liberated nuns try to
When liberated nuns try to sell their liberated lifestyle to younger women and the younger women aren’t buying it, theirs is what you can indeed call a failing business model. Good insight, Georgia!
When liberated nuns try to
When liberated nuns try to sell their liberated lifestyle to younger women and the younger women aren’t buying it, theirs is what you can indeed call a failing business model. Good insight, Georgia
________________________________________________
Nope! We don't buy the Vatican's old fashioned, women are second class in the church. If you want to know what dimishes women's orders go to Rome. If you want a classic example of a failed model just ... go to Rome!
Check out the photos at
Check out the photos at www.wnd.com/?pageId=39783, Anonymous. It’ll clue you into the REAL problem.
Ah go to Rome Shergan! Clues
Ah go to Rome Shergan! Clues from the clueless? What an oxymoron! What Rome stands for regarding women, young, middle or old is UNattractive.
To Rome I then go! Still I
To Rome I then go! Still I don’t doubt the attractiveness to you of associating with one of the innovative sisterhood living under a vow of poverty and, notwithstanding that, traveling the world spreading fairy dust! Even if God has called you to be no more than a gym teacher to California grade schoolers, you can continue to post here your deep thoughts so that the rest of us can appreciate the quality of your mind, Anonymous. No problem for me!
That’s 234 not counting nuns,
That’s 234 not counting nuns, Shergan.
i don't see the connection
i don't see the connection
If you went to the website
If you went to the website Shergan gave you would!!!!!
Those groups which most must
Those groups which most must "go on to live in history books" are the very ones doing the inquisition.
What exempts Mother Shaun and her houses from being investigated, and very well, and their brothers in the house? What exempts those Mercy Sisters? What presumptions were at play which appointed them investigators and what presumptions were in play which indicated their victims, whom they will never comprehend, towards whom they have a prior hostility and no Christian charity, no empathy, no understanding?
None are so blind as those who will not see.
As the Reverend Sister Joan Chittister OSB indicates here, we will never know the dynamics which were at play, nor the fatal results, until we see the heads rolling for reasons we cannot know, but whose effects we will see, and have seen from the start of this diabolical proceeding born within no stable but within a hostile conference hall far from Rome.
How dare they for example investigate the good Dominican Sisters of Maryknoll, among whom we count our greatest North American martyrs amd Confessors of the Faith: Sister Maura Clarke and Sister Ita Ford! FO what good reason? We shall never know.
Those who most deeply deseve our gratitude for their sacrifice for our Faith, for their hard work in daily making real the Reign of God in truth, peace and justice, we here despise and humiliate, rather than support as one community of God, one family.
Such arrogance . . .
In God's House are many mansions . . .
Judge not lest ye be judged, and by the same measure
The “groups which most must
The “groups which most must ‘go on to live in history books’” (to use your words + mine, Frère Charles) are the very ones that look set to survive based on current evidence, and the congregation Mother Mary Clare Millea heads up is one of them . Why are young women coming to join her? It can only be because they know she is “daily making real the Reign of God in truth, peace and justice”. Pax!
Georgia on Jun. 28, 2010.
Georgia on Jun. 28, 2010.
You stated:
"The “groups which most must ‘go on to live in history books’” (to use your words + mine, Frère Charles) are the very ones that look set to survive based on current evidence, and the congregation Mother Mary Clare Millea heads up is one of them . Why are young women coming to join her? It can only be because they know she is “daily making real the Reign of God in truth, peace and justice”. Pax!"
--------------------------------
Sorry to disappoint you, but the young women are not exactly pounding down the doors to enter Mother Clare's congregation, either. Remember---any number can enter a community. But it's the number that professes final vows and remains afterward, is the number that counts.
Secondly, many of the women who choose to enter a religious community are often older than candidates used to be. It used to be that girls entered right after high school (and some entered after their Junior year of high school and finished high school as postulants---Sisters of the Holy Family of Nazareth---are one community that came to mind, here).
Today, women who do come---have had careers, were married, had children, had bank accounts, credit cards, their own cars---owned their own homes or lived in apartments. They often, very generously, give all of that up. They often feel a desire to give of themselves to the service of the Church----but when they observe the realities of religious life up close---reality hits them like a hammer. The pretty pictures that appear in vocation flyers are the exception rather than the norm. Human nature doesn't change because one is in the cloister.
The Sisters who are on the Visitation Team come from a number of religious communities---not just one or two congregations. And just like everything else that is "Vatican sponsored" these Sisters had to take oaths of loyality and promise not to disclose a thing. By that last phrase, I mean that in years to come---they may not talk about their experiences except in the broadest of broad terms.
You speak of women later in
You speak of women later in life feeling a call to service in the Church, but “when they observe the realities of religious life up close---reality hits them like a hammer.” Indeed! They look at all those aging and frail nuns at so many of the historic “white” houses and see themselves spending their future giving out endless sponge baths and dispensing uncountable bedpans—and they vamoose in a hurry.
I know of a community of 100+ nuns boasting of their democratic style and of their peace and social justice mission and of one particularly high-profile member, a community that hasn’t had a final profession in years and has a mere 2 women (thirtyish and fortyish) in formation. It’s an all-white community where the average age is rather above 70. With too many thoughts of sponge baths and bedpans dancing in their heads, it’d be a wonder if those younger 2 stuck around for much longer.
A new generation of women
A new generation of women will reread the fundamental monastic texts, and after tearing down the ersatz thing this present crop of aging nuns assembled, build something new and solid. Then there will be true reform.
WHO, pray tell, is “Mother
WHO, pray tell, is “Mother Shaun”?
To avoid such a stumble in the future, I suggest you navigate to www.mccare.com* or call upon St. Dymphna.
She is not a Reverend. That
She is not a Reverend. That title is not any frere's to bestow.
Dear Brother Charles, You are
Dear Brother Charles, You are so right Brother Charles?? Why should anybody on earth be held accountable for anything? Each and every Order of Priests and Nuns has a Constitution established by the Founders of these Orders and if there be serious changes made which do not reflect the original reasons for founding the Order why bother to check it out-just let it go! Everyone on earth is held accountable in their respective lives-Husband to Wife, Wife to Husband, Brother to Abbot, Sister to Prioress, Employee to Boss, and all of us are accountable to GOD. Why is this so difficult to understand? Do we all go on like little children and keep hollering about authority? People in charge have awesome responsibilities and apparently you think that we all should shirk our responsiblities to these people because it is unfair. St Benedict had better things in mind and did not encourage any of those choosing to follow his ways to disobey and discard what Authorities had established. Perhaps he had in mind HUMILITY which has been discarded in favor of PRIDE. What say you Brother Charles?
Why bother? Credibility.
Why bother?
Credibility. Authenticity. Loyalty. Integrity. Humility.
Just sayin...good sister.
Georgia, your reply is
Georgia, your reply is unChristian, uncharitable, and unGodly. Shame on you!
Nuns of dying reformist
Nuns of dying reformist houses are doing too little too late. They should have been out on the hustings recruiting like the traditionalists have been doing all along. But, no, they waited until “house profile” became utterly unappealing to “recruiting target”. And now (can you believe it?) they blame others for their own failure to build for the future. Why should we coddle them in their foolishness?
Georgia you seem to know all
Georgia you seem to know all about deadenders. Considering your piss and vinegar comments, I bet you're a real deadender too. So, when you go out any door watch out! Holy justice might cause it to hit you in your deserving deadend.
G. Bullough Your entire
G. Bullough Your entire Post is "Hog Wash"
Are you quoting Tom Doyle, OP? Show me the money!
I think you are reading too
I think you are reading too much NCR to thing correctly. Are you saying that nuns can't possible be bad because they're women? Even Frances Kissling, the head of Catholics for abortion, said that female religious orders were AS BAD OR WORSE than the worst bishops in their handling of abuse cases.
Of course they resist when
Of course they resist when the first step of the process Chittister outlines has not been taken. The absence of that first step is a sure sign that they'd best "circle the wagons," as G Bullough says, because the Vatican emissaries are not coming in good faith but as prosecutors. Women religious are dragged into court without being told their crimes.
I can only shake my head at
I can only shake my head at this! Sad!
If emissaries of the Vatican
If emissaries of the Vatican who by sheer inertia must carry some weight experience such actual and rhetorical resistance it is no surprise that 'mere' laity who've been victimized by sisters are shut out of serious dialogue.
I could not believe my eyes reading this comment by G Bullough. My parent's love for God and values lived according to Jesus, were further supported by the nuns who taught me in grade and high school.
'mere' laity....you do not mind being victimized and sodomized by the CLERGY? And all that protected by ROME?
I am speechless.
Gardy
Did you not read Sr. Joan's
Did you not read Sr. Joan's comments about the report not being shared after it is made? What kind of investigation is this?
The contempt priests and
The contempt priests and hierarchs feel for nuns is well-known. Surely Joan Chittister understands that and has experienced it. Why pretend it isn't deeply embedded in clerical and hierarchical culture?
One of her fellow Benedictines, Fr. Roger Kasprick, wrote about "the prejudices against sisters that some priests seemed to have" in Sisters Today over thirty years ago.
Did Joan not notice the treatment of nuns in the 1980s when Sisters of Mercy were required to back the pope's views of sterilization, and when the pope seized control of Carmelite nuns the world over, forcing them to return to the rule written in 1531 by priests? What about the nuns expelled from their communities at that time for signing an advertisement saying a difference of opinion existed among Catholics about abortion? Etc.
Why didn't Joan and her community just say a big loud public NO to the inquisition? Maybe that would have given courage to other communities to get up from their supine positions and refuse to cooperate in their own humiliation.
Since there is to be no publication of the results, as there has been no publication of the reasons for the inquisition, why are the communities allowing the intruders into their homes?
(The hatred ordained men feel for professed religious women is shared by many laymen, as is obvious here on the NCR message board. If posters expressed their views of people of other races or religions with the vile language many men use about nuns, their posts would never appear. Surely Joan has noticed the vicious posts about nuns.)
Sister Joan, our next pope.
Sister Joan, our next pope. Write on sister. Don't be discouraged by the insolent, clerical elite who have always hated nuns. Just as they hate their mothers, dress up like her, but want to be called Father. Many are going to have their day in court soon to be sure.
Our jail cells await many of them. The Vatican's proclivity for always hitting the wrong target continues to manifest itself. Pope Benedict has lost all moral authority and had best step down while he still has a following.
hell will freze before sister
hell will freze before sister Joan will be pope or pristes.don't waste your time with it.is not happening.
Most Reverend Sister Joan is
Most Reverend Sister Joan is already one of the "priests we need that are already among us."
People of God set youselves free!
ORDAIN YOUR LEADERS ONLINE RIGHT NOW. NAME THEM!
If the sacrament of baptism can be thru water, desire, or blood so too can ordination.
The RCC has no authority but the People of God do. Name the priests among you, living and dead, who have inspired you to follow path of Christ
Now she's Most Reverend. This
Now she's Most Reverend. This is fun. Why stop there? Her Eminence? Her Holiness? Grade inflation is no grade.
No one's stopping there anon.
No one's stopping there anon. Sister is a holy person. She is a woman of integrity. Some of us really believe in a God that perhaps you don't comprehend.
Some of us really believe in a faith, a Hope ,and a Charity that transcends the Church to reveal "... in God all things are possible ..." including female Ordination in the RCC.
All some need is faith in God's Love.
So ... if you don't believe what we believe it's ok. So be it.
Just because your ceiling is lower than some of ours, it's ok.
Your perception of how far the "length of the light" can travel is not our perception. Your perception doesn't make that length any shorter.
Some of us will travel that length with the Holy Spirit for a very long distance. Others won't.
So as you scarcatically suggest we won't stop there. The Spirit of God is upon some of us who believe. And that Spirit is in full flight and She will "travel the length of the Light!"
If only Sister Joan were
If only Sister Joan were Pope...we'd not be in the midst of the now global male clergy sex-abuse scandal.
In fact, women (Lay & Religious) MUST be in Church leadership positions at both the diocesan and Vatican/Curial
levels; of course that includes ordination of women called to priestly & episcopal ministry. I remain
hopeful & pray that I'll live to see this in my lifetime! May God Bless Sr Joan & her Benedictine vocation!
I'm struck by the energetic
I'm struck by the energetic debate raging here. Joan Chittister has spoken up for marginalised people and victims of abuse for years. She has addressed issues most religious and many laity are to timid and to uninformed to tackle and she has not been scared to address the male dominance and secrecy of the Vatican or US governement or any other institution in todays complex world.
I salute her heroism and would dearly love to see her become prominent in senior circles of Vatican thinking. The present nature of examining communities and individuals is deplorable and belongs to the dark ages and not to enlightened thinkers.
I doubt that her stand is shaped by an agenda of "hiding things". On the contrary she is objecting to that mentality in those who have mounted this excessively expensive undertaking. Expensive in time, in money and perhaps in persecutions of those whose voices are most valuable in a time when a defensive male hierarchy is striving to avoid its accountability for crimes against the very laws of God which they state they uphold! The whole world has been sickened by the abuses of these men and by their utter inability to comprehend that their "whited sepulchre" disguises repell many who would otherwise look to them for wisdom. They also bring a heavy weight of prejudice to bear on their brothers and sisters who are motivated by a true and honorable sense of vocation.
We need many more like Joan.
Indeed we do need many more
Indeed we do need many more like Sister Joan.
I could not agree with you
I could not agree with you more.I think the world would be a better place if we had more like Sr. Joan, and I KNOW our Church would be a better institution if we had more members like Sister Joan.
The fact that the papacy has decided to investigate the American nuns is, to me,just one more sign of a system gone awry. Unfortunately, they just don't get it. Holy Spirit, we need you more than ever. To paraphrase that great hymn: Spirit of the Living God, fall afresh on us.
In the meantime, I believe it is time to support all of our women religious.They have worked tirelessly in our schools, hospitals, and parishes. I WANT TO THANK THEM FOR ALL OF THEIR GOOD WORKS.
GOD BLESS THEM!
Don't you know that women are
Don't you know that women are already being ordained as priests by valid ordination of a validly ordained bishop? There are now Roman catholic women priest in 30 states. Rome just doesn't recognize them because they are women. These women priests are forming house church communities and are ministering to people when the oficial Catholic church is not feeding them spiritually. Think outside the box and you will realize that we are all "priestly people".
Dear Durwood, Sr. Joan-our
Dear Durwood, Sr. Joan-our next pope?????? What drug are you on?? Pope Benedict has lost all moral authority?? Ok "God", you have made your judgement and now that you have made all the changes how do you expect to enforce them? Such EMOTION! Why not step back, take a deep breath, and re-think what you have written?
tom warren, such emotion over
tom warren, such emotion over what? Why bother telling someone to re-think? We are as Catholics now not able to think for ourselves and what is best for us. We have Cardinals and bishops to do all the thinking for us. They can inquisite, visitate, do whatever suits their theological mood and insist they should never be held accountable for their actions. They are the gods. They have turned themselves into gods that all must obey.
Why bother thinking about anything? Why bother getting up in the morning if at the end of the day your love is hatred, your faith has all the marks of fascism arising in it, and your hope has become nothing but despair? Awaken to the new Catholic Church of Pope Benedict. It is the devil at work!
In other words, why be a Catholic if Catholicism is not really about Jesus Christ's teachings anymore?
Why bother?
Dear Anonymous, If you had
Dear Anonymous, If you had paid attention in school you would understand that all you have just written is at best incorrect. Certainly the Authority and Actions of the Hierarchy when wrong are questioned. Jesus Christ established HIS Church and all HIS followers are subject to the HIS LAWS. We Catholics, all of us, must obey!
Jesus Christ's law: Love God
Jesus Christ's law: Love God and love your neighbor as you love yourself. Simple, right? I don't see much of it on this discussion board.
"The contempt priests and
"The contempt priests and hierarchs feel for nuns is well-known."
Perhaps you could provide some evidence to support this assertion? If you mean that they want nuns to believe Catholic teachings, how mysoginistic of them.
"Did Joan not notice the treatment of nuns in the 1980s when Sisters of Mercy were required to back the pope's views of sterilization, and when the pope seized control of Carmelite nuns the world over, forcing them to return to the rule written in 1531 by priests? What about the nuns expelled from their communities at that time for signing an advertisement saying a difference of opinion existed among Catholics about abortion? Etc."
Well let's see. There are two examples in that paragraph of nuns dissenting from clear church teaching and one asking them to return to the principles of their order. How horrendous.
"(The hatred ordained men feel for professed religious women is shared by many laymen, as is obvious here on the NCR message board. If posters expressed their views of people of other races or religions with the vile language many men use about nuns, their posts would never appear. Surely Joan has noticed the vicious posts about nuns.)
Hatred ordained men feel for professed religious women? Really hatred?
Vile language about nuns? Have you seen how the typical NCR reader talks about the Pope and bishops, now that's vile?
Evidence? Consider the
Evidence? Consider the disrespect of clergy who refer to religious women who do not wear veils as "feral nuns." Consider the situation of an Archdiocese that forgot to include non-clerical religious (men and) women in the official Diocesan Mass to celebrate the life and death of John Paul II. Such oversght has happened all too frequently.
There are 50,000 priests and
There are 50,000 priests and 200 bishops in the US and you come up with 2 anecdotal stories. I can supply you with far more anecdotal stories about disrespect from some orders of nuns towards the clergy, but that wouldn't prove anything more than you did. In fact I don't have to supply you with any anecdotal stories just read anything by any nun that gets published in NCR.
Most priests and bishops are highly supportive of religious women.
Thanks, KS crawler. If you
Thanks, KS crawler. If you were a woman who worked in the Church, the comment that priests and hierarchs do not support religious women, nor women in general, would resonate strongly, without as you note, a need for further anecdotes from one side or the other. I am a female church worker and experienced just today, such a lack of respect and total "authority power trip" from a priest, despite my years of loyal service, that I was a bit shocked at its lack of rationality, humanity and simple Christian charity. Many of us who serve as the Church's labor, the lower caste (females under the males) as in India, completely and frequently feel the "lack of respect" from priests and the bishops in the church, while we are the ones going out to do their bidding and serving as the hands of Christ (as they claim to speak for Him).
I am sincerly sorry that
I am sincerly sorry that happened to you. But that just brings us up to 3 anecdotes and does not carry the weight the original poster intended.
"Why didn't Joan and her
"Why didn't Joan and her community just say a big loud public NO to the inquisition?" As a lifelong Christian male who values his reputation as a Christian and therefore no longer [after 65 years] refers to himself as "Catholic", I think that is the most important question. I totally support the reasoning and thoughts of Sr. Joan, but for the life of me, cannot understand how, in good Christian conscience, she and other Jesus-centerd people can continue to support such diabolical practices as we see on a daily basis in the Catholic Church.
I do understand her allusion to the power of the Vatican, and the possible suppression and excommunication of all dissenters and religious orders; but since when is our loyalty to Jesus conditioned by PRACTICAL matters and issues [i.e. 'where will I live', 'how will I feed myself', 'what will people think', etc.] if I speak out boldly and suffer the wrath of the Vatican? Perhaps Jesus-focused people have other concerns that stop them from speaking Truth to Power.
Personally, I believe it is long past time for people of Christian integrity to personally and publicly condemn with their words and ACTS the Catholic Church. A massive and bold revolt from this church would speak LOUDLY. To do anything less is to enable continuing evil practices [accumulating vast wealth, discrimination against women, obsession with doctrine and ritual, clericalism, option for the powerful and well-connected, denigration of marriage as an equal to celibacy, suppression of any non-traditional theology, intolerance of different lifestyles, devotion to monarchial structure, etc.]
Benedict is presiding over
Benedict is presiding over the end of the last gasp of Caesarian autocracy. Another page to early medieval history is being turned and he, most Catholics, and most of the hierarchy are not equipped to deal with it.
Unlike the Counter-Reformation era, great artistic building programs and the rise of a Triupmphal Church worked to stop the spread of Protestantism. It didn't obliterate Protestantism, but Catholicism's re-statement and confirmation of itself, plus the 30 Years War, blunted it's growth in Europe.
That isn't going to happen now that centuries of deception and cover-ups from the sacerdotal elect are becoming exposed for all to see and smell. The stench gets worse and worse with each new report of clerical corruption at all levels of the Church. All Rome can do is try to fumigate this House of Ill Repute. A pathetic showing of it's impotence. Thus inviting still more derision and disbelief.
You wish. Right from the
You wish. Right from the start there have been heretics, dissenters, schismatics, protestants, bad popes, bad bishops, bad priests and yes, some bad nuns as well. And there have also been saints and reformers.
All of this through empires, kingdoms, republics, reichs; all of which have passed away into history, like the U.S. of A. will pass away into history, perhaps with a bang, but more likely with a socialist whimper, as well as the relevance of the Church's American detractors.
What has survived has been Catholic orthodoxy and what will survive when we are all gone is Catholic orthodoxy, right up to the day when Jesus returns. There is no humanist straight line from some medeival Catholic dark ages to some glorious feminist future world. That is a fantasy. History cycles and Catholic truth remains the same. The Church may shrink at times and then expand at others but she will remain. The Holy Spirit wants it, and we can't change his mind.
Dear Sisters all: I am not a
Dear Sisters all: I am not a nun but have seen and resented for decades the great contempt the previous anon blogger refers. These clerics and conservative catholics are the ugly face of misogyny that should be wiped clean from any Church that calls itself Godly.
Right now these godless wonders are sniping at you (religious women) one by one. How gutless they are. Just like their gutless investigation. The goal is to demoralize/divide and conquer/control you.
Church bullies are insufferable. More than most they deserve reciprocal justice. For a litany of reasons they should reap the wasteland they have sewn.
If the RCC ever brings in outsiders or try to suppress you I hope you don't allow it. I personaly would love all Sisters like Moses to walk out of the this land of Pharoes/Bishops, with their property and their friends and join the episcopal church
Just remember: Crooked boys with power know lots of behind the scenes tricks.
The pope seized control of
The pope seized control of Carmelite nuns the world over, forcing them to return to the rule written in 1531 by priests? Jeepers I must have slept through that one. I am a Carmelite and don't remember that ever happening. I also don't know of any Rule the Carmelites follow other than that of (St.) Albert of Jerusalem who wrote it in the 12th century and who was not a priest by the way.
Not surprised you slept
Not surprised you slept through your instructions on the order's history. God loves you even when you're asleep, as St. Therese of Lisieux taught us.
For information about the pope's interference with the Carmelite nuns, and his attempt to force them to return to the 1581 rule, start here:
http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&q=john+paul+ii+++carmelit...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/apr/02/guardianobituaries.catholicism
Also see old articles from NCR:
News of the Church, Nov. 11, 1983, p. 3; and
"Is Opting Out a No-Win Situation", by Richard A. Hill, S.J., March 2, 1984, p. 12.
("Jeepers" is a euphemism for Jesus.)
You're wrong about Albert
You're wrong about Albert Avogadro, Canon, Bishop, Patriarch of Jerusalem.
Of course he was a priest.
(A Carmelite would know that.)
"and when the pope seized
"and when the pope seized control of Carmelite nuns the world over, forcing them to return to the rule written in 1531 by priests?"
I would love to see some documentation on this comment; no one I know of has ever heard of this event.
Always amusing when someone
Always amusing when someone thinks because SHE hasn't heard of something, that it didn't happen.
See my response to the poster claiming to be a Carmelite (LOL) for directions.
the only reason the Hot-shot
the only reason the Hot-shot Bishops demanded this Inquistion it due to the fact that they covered up the sex abuse by their priests(NOT ALL PRIESTS) and its costing so much money that they (bishops) want to raid the coffers no matter how small of the sisters and nuns. And YOUR RIGHT! the majority of the "clergy" look down on the religious women as evidenced by the lack of financial backing for all those sisters (mostly the aged.that worked for Maybe $5 or $10.00 PER MONTH and even per Year, without health insurance or retirement coverage)and had to ask for medicaid assistance (without FICA .. no social security!)You want to talk about Abuse?! How about building more seminaries and having a Year for Priests..what about a Year (better a Century for Religious)? There is no equality for women in the church..that's true but it could be livable if they didnt resort to something like this underhanded "VISIT" to steal from the hardest working and dedicated group within the chuch. Oh by the way..the church is NOT DONE and NEVER WILL BE (for you idiots that believe that crap) and we are not against science for you other fools and idiots.
I rarely agree with Joan
I rarely agree with Joan Chittister but in this case I agree in several areas. First I think she is right that the report should be made public. We should have learned by now that hiding our dirty laundry as we did in the ephebophile scandal does no good. The only reason I can think of for not making this report public is due to the scandal that would come as we find out how far from Catholic teaching some of these orders have strayed. Among some orders there seems to be a belief that being a social worker inoculates you from the need to follow all the teachings of Christ. Good intentions are not enough.
I also agree with her when she says why bother. Most of these orders will fade away in the next 10 to 15 years anyway. Despite some of their admirable efforts in the area of human service they have fallen so far off the right that path that they repel new members and so are dying on the vine. Are we really going to miss pictures of sisters wearing sweatshirts that say, “nuns for choice”, or watching nuns escort women into abortion clinics, or hearing nuns say, “we need to move past Jesus”? I think not. My biggest criticism of the Vatican is that they didn’t do this 30 years ago when some of these orders might have been saved. But they are too far gone now. Perhaps some individuals in these orders can be salvaged.
But the Holy Spirit always protects his Church. That can be seen in the new, young, growing, and faithful orders of nuns. Some are habited and cloistered, (Ann Arbor Dominicans of Mary), some are not habited and are not cloistered, (Apostles of the Interior Light). They are growing so fast it is hard for them keep up. It is a perfect example of how God protects His pilgrim Church.
kscrawler - It would be
kscrawler - It would be helpful if you expand on what you mean by "the Church". It seems, for my reading of your posts, that you mean the institutional church, as distinct from the People of God or other images Cardinal Dulles wrote of in his book, Models of the Church. Does your reading of the history of the institutional church say anything to you about its need for reform?
A fair question. In regards
A fair question. In regards to most of the posts on this and other articles when I refer to Church I am speaking specifically about the teaching capacity of the Church as defined by the Majesterium drawing on Sacred Tradition and Scripture.
I am not attempting to defend any immoral actions of the hierarchy. But by the same token I don't believe that you can paint all the hierarchy with the same brush. My study of Church history has shown that while there is plenty of room for discussion and debate on many topics, others have been conclusively decided, typically for centuries. Those decisions, it is my belief are not arbitrary, or examples of patriarchal bias, or euro-centricity, or anything other than the hand of the Holy Spirit guiding His pilgrim Church.
To continually dispute those Truths is to dispute with the Holy Spirit. To not hold the same beliefs as the Church on issues, such as the Real Presence, or papal infallibility, or on Abortion, by definition makes someone a Protestant. I don't think there is any room for a cultural Catholic, or an ethnic Catholic. You either believe and thus qualify as a Catholic, or you don't and are either Protestant, an atheist, or a pagan.
Thank you for the response.
Thank you for the response. I need to give it some thought. My initial reaction is that the general approach is one which seems to stress "us & them", whereas I see Jesus' taking a more "see where I am coming from, & come
follow me" methodology. Another point of reference I will look at is the criticism of "dualistic" thinking by Fr. Richard Rohr in his various publications, most recently "The Naked Now" & "Everything Belongs". And, I suppose to some extent your explanation depends on what one sees as the essential teachings of the Church on the subjects listed. I tend to embrace the thought, "in essentials, unity, in non-essentials, diversity, in all things, charity", which I believe originated w/ St. Augustine, supplemented w/ the conviction that I am not the one, fortunately, who should expect to have all the answers. Finally, the question of the "sensus fidelium" (probably misspelled) is, possibily, an appropriate brake on the institutional church, as, for example, the role the faithful non-ordained played in the Arian controversy.
The Church as has often been
The Church as has often been said is always in reform. Sometimes the need is higher than others, but always in reform. The issue of the Sensus Fedelium is I think valid for the origin of controversies and your example of the Arian controversy is a good one. But if you believe that in fact there is a Truth it will not be changed by time or circumstance, which of course is the bedrock belief of moral relativism.
I understand and appreciate the good intentions behind some peoples actions, but you can be well intentioned and still be wrong. For example to support abortion because you feel for the trauma of a pregnant woman is understable, but that still does not make it correct. The same is true for condoning homosexual activity. Both of those are settled issues that the Sensus Fidelium cannot undue.
A better arguement for the Sensus Fidelium may be in the area of artificial birth control. The recent changes in technology could be seen by some to have opened up a entirely new area of discussion. I don't personally think so. The reality is that artificial birth control makes sex a recreational activity that is not open to life and that I think is wrong. I do appreciate that someone might disagree with me on that issue.
My view of the Church that I seem so protective of is the divine nature of the Church. I am not protective of the individuals in it. I do not condone or defend the sinful actions of anyone including the Pope. But as I told someone the other day over the course of the last 2000 years one Pope or another has committed almost every sin imaginable, except heresy.
Finally I am curious about so many on here whose comments I read. If I knew of an organization that I thought was corrupt, did not have any redeeming value, whose stated dogma I totally disagreed with, and whose actions were vile and bigoted, why would I want to be a member? I choose to stay in the Church because despite the human frailties of it's members both lay and clergy I believe it proclaims the Truth. If I did not believe that I would be gone in a minute.
kscrawler - having given your
kscrawler - having given your response my reflection, & while I respect your analysis, I think I see the teachings of the Majesterium as less black & white than I perceive that you do, at least in the way you seem to apply them. I think the church's approach to the interpretatioon of Scripture, for example, is much more flexible since the pope's encyclical on that subject in 1943. Nonetheless, I see an effort on the part of some, possibly including you, to a form of fundamentalism unopen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit when it comes to certain issues, such as those which you mention. While I agree that it is not a good idea to "continually dispute" those teachings of the Magesterium which have been appropriately received by the faithful, I think that just as the proper interpretation of Scripture as applied to particular issues calls for a lively discussion in subjection to the Holy Spirit, so too does the application of principles of the church's teaching, especially in those difficult circumstances such as when, if ever, it is moral to cause or allow the death of a human being, but also other questions on which the thought of the church has varied from time to time.
Well when I read your
Well when I read your comments it strikes me that some, and I don't know you well enough to judge your position, are looking for wiggle room to rationalize behaviour that they know is wrong.
When something is declared by the church to be an intrinsic evil like abortion or homosexual activity, there really isn't room for dissent. Dissent on intrinsic positions like this can only come from outside the Church because a faithful Catholic is obliged to be faithful to this teaching.
Now if someone takes the opposite position that you can be a faithful Catholic and still disssent on issues declared to be an intrinsic evil, then what, or how, do you define what it is to be a Catholic? If you dissent on those issues you are in essence saying that there is no absolute Truth and that there is no authority with the power to declare any Truth as absolute. At that point there is no reason for the Catholic Church to exist.
We should then all become Protestants and seek whatever Truth we think comes to us individually. We can then watch as two people talk to one another each with polar opposite opinions and both thinking they have a legitimate right to declare their position as the Truth. To me that seems to be a logical fallacy.
kscrawler, can I just start
kscrawler, can I just start out thanking God for you posting what you have on these comments? I came to this article wanting to find out some updates about the visitation and for the most part was simply appalled by the reactions expressed here. I think many of the people who post here would call Catholics like us "out of touch" but in just reading this much I must say that everyone who believes that there is "institutionalized hatred of nuns" or "pervasive misogyny amongst clergy" or what-not needs a serious reality check. An impatient remark from Fr. Joe is not evidence of such things, and while in my experience in several parishes I have met many people who perceive and feel they are at the brunt of constant attacks of that sort, I have yet to meet a single priest who honestly looks down on religious sisters...
That having been said, the characterization of Jesus as merely "see where I'm coming from" and not "us versus them" is inaccurate, because invitations are inevitably divisive. Jesus invited all, reached out to all, but submission to His yoke, dying to self and taking on of the mantle of humility is something that we choose. If we say yes, then we indeed are "us", for we have by grace become sons and daughters of God. If we say no, then we indeed are "them", who have decided not to follow. This is a distinction as clear as life and death, as clear as yes and no. This is why Christ came not to bring peace but the sword, to set father against son, daughter against mother (Mt 10:34). That is simply what Truth does.
In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, diversity. In all things, charity. Indeed, but what are essentials and non-essentials? It makes sense that essentials are what Christ prayed for us, that we be of one mind. It makes sense that the diversity of the non-essentials should glorify the unity of the essentials, rather than detract from them. It saddens me that amongst American Catholics our view of diversity is so narrow that it must turn to diversity of teaching (read as heresy) and cannot see how true diversity found in our manhood or womanhood, our languages and races and cultures, our vocations and talents, are meant to lift up our unity in faith and teaching as a light for the world. How is diversity of teaching anything but "a house divided" that cannot stand?
Coming back to the topic at hand, I just want to say that I feel Sr. Joan and far too many people here have honestly lost sight of what being a Christian and especially a Catholic is about. Humility, meekness, and obedience all done in charity- these are the marks of the Christian. A willingness to bear all injustices, especially those that we do not understand, a humility that embraces a post far below what we rightfully deserve, an obedience that is the result of true faith, these are the examples we have been given by our Lord Jesus Christ. The day when such venomous insults are thrown at others because we perceive that they have somehow trespassed on our pride, the day when people say faithlessly that the Holy Father who occupies the seat of St. Peter, the rock of the Church, has no authority and no right to shepherd the Roman Catholic Church, the day when we put our faith in ourselves rather than the Church that Christ founded and the Spirit has guided for 2000 years, that is the day we cease to be Catholic. It is natural to say "it is hard, who can accept this", it is natural to walk away and leave. But it is supernatural, it is truly faithful to believe and obey even when we do not understand, even when we may be angry, or disgusted, for we as Catholics still believe in Christ, and still believe that He guides His pilgrim Church. "Where are we to turn? You have the words of everlasting life."
"Open to the guidance of the
"Open to the guidance of the Holy Spirit?" I suppose that this "Guidance of the Holy Spirit'" can only come from the Magisterium. As we can see daily in the media, most members of the Magisterium have been caught in lies and coverups for decades regarding the Priest Pedophilia Scandal. Since the Holy Spirit is also known as "The Spirit of Truth," why would he reveal His truth to men, who have consistently practiced LIES as part of their Modus Operandi. How legitimate would the prophetic or interpretive "word" of most members of the Magisterium be, if they don't have a track record for honesty? How much credence would any Spirit-filled, Charismatic Catholic put on the words (Spiritual Guidance) of Cardinal Law, Mahony, etc.....? The Holy Spirit has given us His "Gift of Discernment" for a reason, so we wouldn't be buffaloed by High-hatted Clerics in Scarlet and Belgian Lace. Maybe it's time for congregations of nuns, as well as "The People of God," to wake up and listen to the Guidance of the Holy for themselves?
Dear kscrawler, You make
Dear kscrawler, You make things too simple and unargueable. What those of us who believe as you do does not understand is that we are too medieval and not up-to-date as they living in the mdern world where everything is questioned. Post Vatican II looked for much from the Catholic Church that did not happen therefore many "Catholics" took it upon themselves to make the changes. That is why we now have "Catholic" Churches which have female priests ordained by female "Bishops" and they have changed GOD'S LAWS to suit their own whims. How does the CHURCH deal with this when you have members of the Clergy supporting this nonsense? How about a Catholic joining the Episcopal church and becoming a priest in the Episcopal church because the Catholic Church does not allow marriage for the Catholic Priests and all of this nonsense being supported by a group of Nuns? One could go on and on but what good would it do? We need a reformation of the minds that cause all this baloney. Thank you for your steadfastness!
I love Joan Chittister. She
I love Joan Chittister. She has the confidence and integrity to speak out. I agree whole heartedly with her description of how non-credible and unjust the Visitation process is. I worked for years in an inspector general's office for the federal government, and we never conducted investigations or inspections without giving those who were reviewed an opportunity to read what we found and to respond to it. If the religious orders are made to suffer decisions or disciplinary actions without having any idea of the information that supposedly supported such action, they are being treated unfairly and unjustly. In the civilian world, litigation would be in order. The nuns being investigated have rights, too. Their vows of obedience should not force them to give up their rights as human beings to be treated fairly. The investigation is a sham unless it is transparent to all involved.
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