Will you also go away?

The church is supposed to manifest the character of God to the world; that's what makes her useful!

The Christian life is never about me or about you or about each other. It's about God.

In St. Louis, MO. we have one more question. Why does our Archdiocese look at every issue through the prism of abortion? You heard of Cafeteria Catholics, well in St. Louis, we only serve one dish - Abortion! I'm pro-life but if I say anything about St. Louis Archdioces One Issue, I will be condemned. I believe we should teach as Jesus taught. Remember, He told the crowd who was going to stone the adultress that the person without sin should throw the first stone. There are plenty of sins to talk about but we talk about only one. Why?

whoa

this most challenging sermon ever, from this Bishop or any other, who asks:
"Why are people leaving?

Why do we have so few who are willing to enter into religious life, or especially into the priesthood?

Why do the bishops not look for other people who can serve in our parishes so we don't have to close them, as we're doing all over this country?

Or why now is the Vatican, under the auspices of the pope, doing an investigation of religious orders of women? Why should they be investigated? For what? They've been the most faithful ministers in our church, especially here in the church in the United States for hundreds of years now.

Maybe there should have been an investigation of the bishops. Why did they continue to hide those who were predators against little children? No investigation of that has ever been made; no bishop has ever been held accountable for sending a priest from one parish to another.

So we could be discouraged with the church, but you know, it isn't the church that you're being asked to say yes to."

He answers: "So when you are asked, "Who will you follow?" it's not a question about really the institutional church or not. The deeper question is, "Will you follow Jesus?" Will you really become a disciple of Jesus? That's the challenge that's being presented to us today.

Certainly, we can respond to that challenge within the Catholic church, and my hope is that we would not have so many people leaving the church, but if they find Jesus in another way, that's what they must do. If the institutional church is unwilling to reform itself, then perhaps more people will leave, but those of us who stay have to keep on working for that change to make our church the institution more faithful to the way of Jesus."

Peter said: Where would we go, Lord, when you are the Word of Eternal Life?

These are very profound and seeringly honest words for any Bishop to preach, and Bishop Gumbleton does so directly. God Bless Him!

All we can do in answer is this:

Love our enemies, including the members of our own Catholic Church . . .

Do good to those who wish us harm

Feed the hungry.
Heal the sick.
Work for peace, and justice

Don't turn back.
Do not back down.
Follow.

and Love.

Yes, I will follow Jesus. The Jesus who quarreled with the Pharisees and held up the ones who didn't fit right whether it was due to illness, sin or gender. I have to step outside the formal church buildings for a while though as I will not let my body be counted as one who will be there no matter how unjust and backwards some of the hierarchy are. When they remember how to act like Jesus I will be back. In the meantime I appreciate your words.

A truly beautiful piece of writing by Thomas Gumbleton, a gentle man of God with great insight and faith. Many Catholics that I know who have left the institutional church could no longer take the policies and extreme turn to the far right that the Church took starting with John Paul II and going further to the right with Benedict. They just couldn't take it anymore. I believe they will return as the old guard dies and the Church of the spirit of Vatican II emerges. I know it is happening as I write this. The decaying imperial Roman model of the Latin Rite is coming to an end and a new way of being Church is about to happen.

This sounds heretical to me. How can we 'find Jesus' except through the Catholic Church? And he is supposed to be a bishop?

What have we here! WOW: a bishop who actually writes something that is something for the individual in the modern world. The very foundation is shaking under me. Thank you Bishop Gumbleton! How wonderful and refreshing it is to hear from a hierarch who is presenting the truth of Jesus. I have always believed that the recent events of the past 40 yrs. are the work of the Spirit waking up the People of God. Jesus was never about the organizations, institutions, dogma or rigidity that have become marks of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Rather, he was showing and teaching freedom, creativity, and love relationships. Jesus was not here trying to establish any institution; that is what he was trying to dismantle. His message was love, was relationship, was creative nurturing in a loving relationship with the father thru one another. Thank you Bishop Gumbleton for giving us something to ponder.

In answer to your question, I left because I was fired from my job as pastoral associate at a small parish where I had worked for over 12 years. Why was I fired? Because I am gay. When I came out, I was fired. So I am now Lutheran and pursuing ministry there. I have always had a vocation. I applied several times in my Catholic diocese to no avail. Either I was too liberal or too old (58 now -- 48 then). Now I am "too" gay. So I will pursue ministry in the ELCA. BTW, I began the process in the ELCA before this most recent policy.

Why are people leaving? Where have you been?

People are not leaving the church becausethe message of Christ is unappealing or too hard to follow. They're not leaving to go consort with demons. people leave the church because they're being driven out. They're being driven out by a church "leadership" that has lost touch with its flock ... a leadership that appears to have lost touch withits message ... a leadership that seems interested only in exercising its power.

I'm still in - I don't know where else to go. But, frankly, my heart is no longer in the pew with me. It's been broken too many times by a church that was intended to heal the broken heart.

"Certainly, we can respond to that challenge within the Catholic church, and my hope is that we would not have so many people leaving the church, but if they find Jesus in another way, that's what they must do. If the institutional church is unwilling to reform itself, then perhaps more people will leave, but those of us who stay have to keep on working for that change to make our church the institution more faithful to the way of Jesus."

Thank you, Bishop Gumbleton.

I started to write more, but I think highlighting this paragraph from you is better than anything I could add.

Bishop Gumbleton, I speak to you with the utmost respect. I think that you are getting to the heart of the matter. You say: “So we do want to belong to a community, but there has always been the problem that human institutions, which the institutional church is, can become deficient or even corrupt.”
I am glad that you admit that the church is a human institution. Has not the message been that the church is a divine institution? Because it is human, not divine, it is subject to the evolutionary process. More than that, it is a part of evolution. It has had its time in history. It is over. Biblical and historical scientific scholarship, philosophical development, and scientific advancement explain and justify this position, in my opinion. Will an alternative replace it? Yes, a post-Axial Age faith. It takes a whole lot of reading outside the Catholic “spiritual books to read list” to come to this realization. How many people are willing to do this? I believe that the intellectual vista for most Catholics has to be greatly expanded. For many, I also believe, the expansion is already taking place and this is one reason for the great Catholic exodus.
Unfortunately, it is the hierarchy itself that appears to remain clueless, rather than realistically relinquishing something it/they can no longer claim. A certain kind of loss comes in one form or another to us over our lifetimes. Only through acceptance of the loss can the gain come into being. ‘Unless the seed falls into the ground and morphs, --- does the seedling sprout and bring forth new life.’
So what we need is an online curriculum. It is unrealistic to think that a whole lot of people are going to read all that is necessary to even begin to get at the issues. Certain people have to read and distill the essence for them. Gradually a coherent body of knowledge emerges, becomes organized, is subject to constant updating, and becomes useful knowledge to bring about meaningful change in our turning point
twenty-first century.

For the most part-I respect Bishop Gumbleton and all that he stands for-but am reminded that he -like most priests that preach need to be reconnected with people who take their baptism seriously and unhappily leave the hierarchical church to complete their mission. Following the lives of the 1 in 10 who "left the church", I think he would be amazed at the contribution the made to building up the kingdom...contrary to his belief, they have not left the gospel-rather find that the gospel has left the Catholic tradition as practiced in most parishes because its leaders, the ordained hierarchy, are intent on leading others to themselves and their vision of what "church" should be. We have one life to live and are not willing to change "city hall" only the pathway toward love.

We find ourselves "subject" to the gospel and seek teachers who witness that call...sadly...Catholicism in most places is not a well of positive influence.

Wonderful homily! The church is so blessed to have Fr. Thomas Gumbleton.

Gentle bishop, you note that many of us who are described as "Fallen Away" (although I prefer to think of it as Risen Above) were not forced out. You are wrong.

I happen to be among many women (former Catholics) who believe that women are as equal in worth, dignity, value and capability to represent Christ as males. I have been told that I have excommunicated myself with this belief, and thus I am no longer Catholic. Go away? No. Forced out? Yes.

With the "communion denying" bishops and those who sit right here on this website with their Pharisee like posts, saying, "just leave if you don't buy hook line and sinker into every edict, and don't DARE ask any questions," most folks who DO leave just did so because they were made to feel NOT welcome, not worthy, or not Catholic.

When we get around to teaching that results in "the first fruits of the Spirit" being made manifest in the lives of believers; we will have a movement and a basis to call forth true peace and justice.

I'm sure that for some people, leaving the church is the only way they can remain true to the Christianity revealed to them by God and some are equally called to stay and for both, the way may be correct.

Indeed. A considerable problem with institutional Christian churches, including Roman Catholic, is their persistent separation of "the spiritual" from "the secular." Life is inescapably and mindfully carried out in the realm of "the secular" (material); still we hear from the pulpit the pejorative explicative "secular humanist," as if matter is evil and spirit in contrast is good. Nature continues to be abused because it is charactrized as inferior to and subject to spiritual exploitation. The cultured alienation of matter and energy, soul and body, spirituality and secularity is a major obstacle for Catholics, and to believing other hyped hierarchical arrogations.
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977793206

happy reading

Some, many in my humble opinion, leave the church, because it seems to me the church's highest priority is to keep the special, single, celibate men's club, the few, the called, the celibates in tact. The church would prefer to bring in priests from Poland, Viet Nam, Nigeria, Kenya, the Philippines or any other country, (even though the people in the pew continually say in most cases they have a very hard time understanding what the priest is saying in his homily) or who come from social backgrounds that are just so different from the people in the pews just to keep the single, celibate, special men's/boys club going.

Many, most, all institutions in this country have changed but the Catholic church in its righteousness thinks they can hold on to this single, celibate, special men's/boy's club.

How many people are willing to be celibate? Maybe .001 of one percent (just a made up guess) of the male population and yet we give all the decision making that affects the rest of us to this group. It feels as bad as slavery. We bow down before the master who makes all the decisions for the rest of us.

I struggle to stay in the church. After 20 years of calling the priests i our parish by Father and whatever his first name was, we had a new pastor and he is a monsignor and a friend asks "what do like to be called or how should we address you?" He says "Monsignor and his last name." I guess the title is that important to him. Then we have a new 20 something old priest from Mexico who studied in Rome and he runs around on Sunday in a black cassock with a black strap hanging from his waste. These priests are all into the specialness of their role of priest. They are the magic makers at the Eucharist. They are the shepherds of their flock. Do we look like sheep sitting in the pews. They are much more into the Catholic Church than the community.

They, the priests, will be more special if they only have in the church those who totally espouse the Catholic line rather that people who might question, and hope, and work for change in the church. Bishop Gumbleton is one, if not the only one, who calls for change. He might get called to Rome for what he preached that Sunday.

The church now wants to go back pre-Vatican as if the church is some unchanging body.

I struggle to stay in the church but it gets harder and harder every Sunday.

Most Rev. Gumbleton:
To answer your question: Catholics actively remove themselves from the Roman Catholic Church when it becomes an occasion of sin for them.
When the Church no longers makes prime the two greatest commandments given by Christ to us, namely to love God above all then to love each other, Catholics leave. When the Church replaces Christian charity with grevious offences to children (priestly pedophila and limited formation outside of Catholic school), young adults (less than .10% of archdiocesan budgets for ministry to them), and families (closing Catholic schools and selling parish property or assets to pay outside-the-parish debts), that's when Catholics with conscience try to change the church from within until they come against a choice--support and perpetuate grevious sin, or leave. When the Church uses civil law to perpetuate financial fraud (using its state nonprofit status to establish hidden for-profit state corporations to profit from sales to parishes) or grevious financial abuse (as in the cases of the Oregon and Arizona bankruptcies wherein millions of dollars (about $17M total) in earmarked contributions of the faithful for development of parishes or campus ministry programs were confiscated by Archdioceses to pay victims or archdiocesean debts) and lack of transparency in financial matters (all Catholic churches use the US Conference of Bishops' 501(c)(3) tax exemption ID number, and no parish or archdiocese must make a verifiable financial statement), Catholics leave.
Catholics stay because of Jesus in their lives via scripture and in the Eucharist, and sometimes because their lay Catholic communities together with progressive clergy and religious have taken leadership for charitable work, ministry, and Catholic formation.
Finally, when the clergy, from the pulpit, turn a matter of private, individual conscience for forgiveness of sin and receiving the Eucharist into a public humiliation and political statement, Catholics leave.
To repeat: when the Roman Catholic Church becomes an occasion of sin for its faithful, Catholics leave.

What a beautiful homily. But it raises for me some serious problems, so I am asking for some help from anyone who is disposed to do so. I was born and raised Catholic,witnessed Vatical II as a young child in parochial school run by the Ursuline nuns, was in religious life for a while, and have since moved very far away from the Church (institutional) as I believe it has corrupted itself. In Bishop Gumbleton's homily, he asks the question "...and what He (Jesus) says then is something that we need to follow?" I have tried all of my life to follow what Jesus says in the Gospels, and when I haven't I have tried to repent sincerely for my failing. But I have repeatedly and hopelessly felt that what the Church teaches is, at times, not what I could even imagine Jesus as saying. I could list one thing after another, but others have done so in this and other forums. So, my question is this: how do I stay - or return, in my case - in/to the Catholic Church when I see it and experience it as an infected and dying organism? One thing Bishop Gumbleton's homily has helped resolve for me is that I can return to taking communion, as I had stopped believing in the whole concept of transubstantiation. But the homily above just solved that dilemma for me: I have always accepted Jesus as the Son of God, as the Messiah - so why should I not believe that he is present in the Eucharist, as he said he would be? But the evil I see operating within the Vatican and the bishops it has gathered around it has caused me to reject it and up until now left me outside of the faith as an active participant. If we had other bishops like Gumbleton, I would feel quite different. And if we had a pope like John XXIIII, I know it would be different! So if you can offer me some insight into my difficulty with the faith, I would be most grateful. If your intent is to criticize or argue or present a fundamentalist position, please do not do so. I am looking for real assistance here and have already heard all of the arguments. Thanks you to anyone who responds for your insights.

When I was a Marianist brother I was molested by a Brother who I respected. Our diocese of Rockville Centre is run by Bishop Murphy [a person who moved pedophile priests around in Boston] and who was rewarded by being put in charge of our diocese. I have been singing in choirs of different parishes for close to 50 years. Our Bishop has decided that anyone working with children OR senior citizens has to take vertus training. The choir is all adults - no children. I would have to give my social security number to a church that can't even govern itself. No way! I quit the choir. If the present pope reverses Vatican II, I am out the door.

I think that it's important to remeber that many peoploe who leave the Catholic church do not do so because they are leaving Christ. For many, leaving the Catholic Church is the only way to remain faithful to Christ. Perhaps the institional church needs to take a closer look at why so many people are leaving and perhaps do something about that. It's so easy to blame the ones who are leaving. On these web pages, I often read messaages from people who are telling others to leave. Isn't it possible that there is something very wrong with a church that seems so eager to push people away? That is not the way that Christ behaved. Rather, He called all to hear Him, to believe in Him and to come to the Father.

Nice sermon.The old testament must be seen as one great myth with many great lessons and some history.The new testament left us one huge legacy and that is the eucharist.The idea that only males can serve as priests puts the Catholic church in the same category as the other main religions of the world where women are second class or third class people simply because of their genitals.The only reason I have not left is because I know priests who see the injustice and although they have been silenced by Rome they are brave enough to carry on and to sneak a little into their homilies.

Can one change the place of birth? Can we change our parents? Change your name, yes! Change your town, yes! Even change your appearance! But we remain the same person. Yes, we can terminate relationships and get new friends, but we cannot change our DNA. Christ remains part of our spiritual DNA. Anger and hatred at what has occurred in our lives takes its toll, but we have a model on how to handle it.

While the institution may not be of our own making, for better or worse it is part of our inheritance. As the people/community of God we have the task of making the human institutions we inherited better. The Catholic Church is one of the most important and influential of these institutions that we pass on to our kids. Changing it is a life-time commitment. Don't give up on it. But don't expect any better treatment than Jesus got for your trouble.

Bishop Gumbleton, speaking for myself, as a progressive & gay Catholic, it is the Church that drives me away with its "teachings" on a litany of subjects including homosexuality, women priests, and contraception. How can I stay in a church that says that I'm "intrinsically evil" & "objectively disordered?" How can I stay in a church that spends hundreds of thousands of dollars to oppose my civil rights? How can I stay in a church that denies women an opportunity in the priesthood merely on the basis of their gender, but allows married men from other Christian denominations to become priests? How can I stay in a church that is against abortion, but doesn't allow the practice of contraception that not only prevents unwanted pregnancies, but also, in the case of condoms, prevents the spread of sexually-transmitted diseases, especially HIV/AIDS in regions like Africa that have been decimated by HIV/AIDS? Those are just a few of the reasons why it is the Church that is driving me out. One shouldn't stay where one isn't wanted. And one shouldn't stay in an abusive relationship, which being Catholic feels like.

What we have here is a real dilemma. Leave the church or stay even though the leadership has proven that so many are anything but good, honest, trustworhty leaders. To leave, would seem the best way to go.If we leave, nothing will change as to the way things are being done by our bishops but at least we are no longer involved. To stay, means one of two things, we love our church and we are willing to put up with how our bishops are handling everything even though we believe that they, the bishops, are to blame for so many bad decisions,including crimial actions. Or we can stay in the church we love and try to help in making a change in the leadership of our church. By that I mean,we must challenge our bishops whenever the occasions arrive for openness, accountability and transparency. Send letters to the bishop if you have any questions about; how many abusive priest are still on the dicesan payroll,how many priest are still serving in othe capacities, why have the abusive PRIESTS, REMOVED FROM MINISTRY BUT WERE NOT REQUIRED TO REGISTER AS SEX OFFENDERS,how much money the diocese has been spent on financial setttlements, how many abusive cases are still pending, who is responsible if your parish priest is found to be a sexual abuser. There are a number of questions you should confront your bishop with and expect to receive a response. My bishop, bishop Kicanas ( the next President of the USCCB's) organization, seems above answering hard questions. The last response I received from him regarding information on abusive priests was that the information I requested could be found in past issues of the monthly Catholic publication which is completely not true. He also refuses to repond to my letters questioning ,why he still allows the name of one of the 10 Worst bishops in America to remain on the Tucson Pastoral Address. He will not allow any information regarding money stolen from Sunday Collections or the millions the diocese has cost our parishes in past bad ventures, giving this reason,it slows down the healing process. If you stay with your parish, you must be concerned about what is going on and get involved. It is not easy,I know but I'm not discouraged. To do nothing, is to be part of the problem and makes you a favorite parishioner of your bishop. LASTLY. wITHOUT YOUR MONEY, THE BISHOP IS JUST ANOTHER PRIEST AND CAN NOT CONTINUE TO CONTROL.I contribute ONE DIME every Sunday and will continue to do so until there is accountability, openness and transparency. Don't anyone tell me to leave my church.

Bishop Gumbleton, when you say,

"Maybe there should have been an investigation of the bishops. Why did they continue to hide those who were predators against little children? No investigation of that has ever been made; no bishop has ever been held accountable for sending a priest from one parish to another."

Didn't you mean to say, "We did WE continue to hide those who were predators against little children?" Last time I checked, you are a bishop too, and you, as Vicar General of the Archdiocese of Detroit in the 70's, were responsible in part for moving around priests whose sexual predation later came to light, despite your efforts to make victims sign confidentiality agreements. Have you contacted Rome or the civil authorities and asked for a just punishment - civil or ecclesiastical - for YOUR crimes?

I realize it's easier to blame others outside of ourselves, but I think admitting our own faults makes our accusations of others failing more poignant and sincere.

There are many reasons. A big one is so many people don't even know their faith.

I keep bringing it up because it is so damning for us who are suppossed to teach the faith to others. remember that poll back in the late 90s that showed that less than half of the catholics polled answered that the Eucharist was the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ? Many can't name all the Sacraments or even know what the few they can name mean. That is a SERIOUS problem. In how many cases is the Catholic Faith nothing more than a family instilled habit for people, like a certain way you learned to fry eggs from your mother, to be abandoned if it becomes a drag or something preceived as more interesting comes along?

The Catholic Hierarchy has for the most part, turned its' back on God. They are all about earthly power over other human beings and living a life style as rich men in imperial palaces such as the Vatican. The real Catholic Church belongs to the People of God and does not require approval from the Pope or other bishops to be Universal (Catholic Christians). Jesus never asked us to follow the Bishop of Rome. He asked us to follow Him. The men in Rome have driven decent and good Catholics away from the institutional church because their corruption and criminal behavior represents EVERYTHING that CHRIST is NOT!

People leave because of the disconnect between the hierarchy's way and the way of Jesus, because the official church does not match the spirituality, and ethics, morals of Jesus. Because of the ongoing, unresolved, unstopped sex scandal abuses and the financial corruption and abuses of the official church. Because the official church suppresses truth, positive solutions.

Because the popes JPII and BXVI cater to dubious and often immoral groups like SSPX (misogyny, anti-semiticism, intolerance, anti-ecumenical of too many its members and clergy), Legion of Christ (founder ultramaterialistic money thief, narcissitic cult tyrant, pedophile abuser of boys, some girls and seminarians, hier producer had daughter in old age despite being the groups founder and a priest) Opus Dei (money, money, misogynist, women in their place as silent cleaners, despite what Jesus told Martha about Mary Bethany).

Because the popes deny there are women apostles not just men, because the popes suppress intelligent, faithful dialogue which Jesus encouraged with people, because pope deny and suppress Pontifical Biblical Study which proved there is no scripture reason to disallow women as priests. It proved there is no authority to not ordain women, so it is bunk for the pope to claim women can not be priests. Thanks Bishop for the brave and true homily. Thanks earthevessel for the great suggestion. Thanks all of you who comment here.

pointing out the problems the Catholic church is facing or the reasons why many Catholics are choosing to leave their church is understandable but failing to offer any solutions, doesn't help this serious situation. Just to point out what's wrong without offering any solutions is just spinning your wheels. If a tire is flat,you knnow it needs air. If your car pulls to the right, you know an adjustment is needed. Problem, solution. Our problems within the Church are much more difficult but there are solutions. THINK. Just a couple examples.What is the main reason our bishops spend billions on financial settlements. What is the main reason our bishops allowed abusive priests to be moved from parish to parish and ultimately removing them from the ministry and allowed them to go free without having to register aS sex offenders. The answer is, BECAUSE THEY HAVE CONTROL OF OUR MONEY AND ABSOLUTE CONTROL TO DO ANYTHING THEY CHOOSE TO DO, THE POWER given to them by their Canon Laws. First thing first. Cut off the money supply. Cut off the money supply. NO ACCOUNTABILITY, NO MONEY. NO OPENNESS, NO MONEY. NO TRANSPARENCY, NO MONEY. I GIVE A DIME EVERY SUNDAY. JUST ONE THIN DIME. IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE, PUT YOUR DIME WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS OR STAY BEING PART OF THE PROBLEM. Before other changes can be made, we have to correct the biggest problem. Money Control. I wonder how many of you have the COURAGE to do as I do. My last words on this challenge is, DO YOU WANT TO CONTINUE TO BE FINANCIALLY ABUSED FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE AND CONTINUE TO FOLLOW FAILED LEADERSHIP? If you have better solutions, I'd desparetly want to hear them.

Most churches are losing members. The largest group among 18-30 year olds is "None of the Above/Atheist/Agnostic". The median age of the protestant mainline churches (lutheran, episcopal, methodist, presbyterian, congregationalist)is 54 and rising. If current membership and attendance trends continue as they have for the past 15 years, by the year 2045, there will be one lutheran in the US and zero presbyterians. Even the once fast growing Southern Baptists have started to decline in numbers.
Face it-religion is boring, irrelevant, expensive, time-consuming and usually unbelievable. Without outside pressure or the need for ethnic bonding, most people (especially the young and men)wouldn't bother.
You could elect a lesbian Marxist living in a "covenanted relationship" with a barnyard of farm animals Pope and start handing out LSD and Qaaludes for communion and your numbers would still be shrinking. Don't believe me? Look at the most liberal groups in the US, the Quakers and Unitarians. Together they make up about half a million people out of 305 million. More than half of the children born into both groups simply drift away. You don't see "Recovering Unitarian" t-shirts like you see "Recovering Catholic" t-shirts, true, but then they don't need them. These organizations simply weren't important enough in their lives for them to be interested in them, let alone rebel from them.
Religions simply makes less and less sense to more and more people all the time.

Tomasso Tucson has a useful point-remember Rembert Weakland? the archbishop who got 450,000$ just for the asking to pay off his partner in joy from outing him? Weakland would have been a lot more circumspect if he'd have had to ask a committee for that amount instead of only one other man.

Good suggestions from lots of people, Tomasso, earthenvessel, and so many others. People still do have often spiritual and religious interest, maybe like brad evans says though not in the institutional churches especially RC that lacks credibility, accountability , dialogue or respect for its lay people, or for its religious women, nuns, for that matter!

The pope is inflicting a return to 1950's type church. Even spoken in English, or Spanish etc. he is returning it to old latin translation style wording, and 1950s actions of priest or bishop presider. Yep, drive out anyone except ultraconservatives who love old latin style of 1950s. I was born in 1980s so latin mass has no nostalgia grip on me, my wife, my mom or dad or my in laws or cousins. Why is the pope doing this to most of us who are born long after this latin mass ever was going on in churches.

The hate-on for the modern world, attacking it as 'relativism" "secular relativism" is nonsense. Jesus worked too in the here and now, helping the here and now sick, needy, and marginalized of his day. Jesus was very "modern". Jesus was very "modern" about women too. The pope is Old Testament and not New Testament.

Lots of those popes with Pius in their pope-name and this current one Benedict, condemned the "modern" world, condemned modern knowledge, condemned democracy. Condemned 'relativism" . Pathetic abuse of the position of pope. The RC church Vatican , its rules are going crazy on us. What a waste of spiritual potential this BVI and JPII have made through secrecy tactics, greed, abuse of others ... especially abusing children and women... scandal denial and cover-up, arrogance. The pope flips the bird at most modern Catholics.

Several years ago, I wrote to Bishop Gumbleton because I was having a crisis of faith. I too, am from St. Louis and was sick of having political candidates pushed down my throat who were "Pro-Life" but were waging war and committing unspeakable infractions on humanity. I was very close to leaving the Church, and was very pained. I love my Church and the values that were instilled in me early on because of It: charity, humility, peace, service, justice, mercy and love. My oldest child was preparing for his Confirmation, and I was struggling with my commitment to the Church.

After much praying, and speaking to my parish priest, I decided that my love for those lessons Jesus teaches us, my belief in the foundation of our Church is stronger than those who try to misuse the messages. I refuse to let a bunch of zealots, false prophets and child abusers hijack My Church. If the faithful and the peacemakers leave the Church, then who is left? The very people who give us a bad name.

The responsibility remains with us to make our message of peace and love the strong and clear.