Vatican to heighten women's ordination sin level

First reaction: What are they afraid of?

What are they going to do? (in secret of course)
Sentence them to be burned at the stake? Stoned?
Really!

And what about the majority of Catholics--at least in developed nations--who see nothing wrong with the ordination of women and even (gasp!) talk about it? Have those sins been upgraded in this restructuring of Vatican prohibitions too? Venial? Mortal? Delicta graviora? Reductio absurdum? Please tell me what to think.

WHAT ELSE could we expect from the Vatican than issuing a pronouncement of canonical hair-splitting over the DEGREE of SINFULNESS? As if any woman who has undertaken the journey to ordained ministry in the Roman Catholic Church is deluding herself that the gonad-focused CHRISTOMONISTIC institution would recognize the contemporary working of the Holy Spirit if it bit them on the cappa magna.
Interesting to note the last time such a canonical modification was made:
http://calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=a3fa6149-27b2-496f-9369-...
Only an idiot would EQUATE ordaining a woman with clerical pedophilia!

If the ban does not work, is it really a ban? Or, if a law is not obeyed, is it really a law?

So far discussion about the role of women in the institutional Church is alive and well, as is their absence from the ranks of the ordained. Seems the streams of discussion are entwined.

The discussion that needs to continue with energy is the one about the statement that only men, e.g., humans with testicles, can be ordained, because Jesus is man, that is, he also had them.

In the end, the observation that men can only be priest because Jesus was a man can be seen as a contradiction of the teachings on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in each of us and in the Church as a whole. If She can be the cause of each of us beinig her 'temple' and the cause of each of us being in the Image of God, how then can we who filled with the Spirit and guide by hers say: Well the Incarnation specifically resulted in a male being born so women need not apply to the particular benefit of the Incarnation, that is the sacrament of ordination to the presbyterate.

WEll, first of all, popes cannot control debate among Catholics on anything. They don't have the authority. That's silliness.

Secondly, what else is new? The only real sins in the Church turned out to be those that have to do "especially" with women. Turns out these are all considered the 'sin against the Holy Spirt that can't be forgiven.' Gee what a surprise. I'm sit here aghast in my cloud of estrogen.

Someone on another website in an English-speaking country observed that when the Vatican really doesn't want to move on an issue---it stalls, drags its feet, utilizes confusing rhetoric---all with the hopes that those bringing up the issues---become senile or die before the Vatican has to deal with the question at hand.

However, the same person observed, when the Vatican perceives its power and authority being threatened---it moves with all 'due haste', with threats of punitive action, and it utilizes clear language.

We have a perfect example here of that observation. The Vatican's governance structure needs a major overhauling (but nothing is being done). Accusations of sexual abuse by priests (and some bishops) are pouring into the Vatican from Europe, South America, Africa, as well as from Australia, Canada, and the US---but there's no discussion of 'procedures being set up for investigating this "delicta graviora" under the control of any specific "Office.'

Instead, the Vatican is putting together 'guidelines' for dealing with sexual abuse issues. Guidelines? Where are the definite procedures for every diocese---world wide to deal with this?

In the United States, dioceses and archdioceses have to re-organize because of changing demographics and lack of priests. But is the Vatican offering practical proposals to mitigate the problem? No, the Pope wants the Office of Evangelization to target Europe and North America (Canadians, you're included in this target, too), in order to 'brain-wash' people into seeing the world from the Pope's point of view. And what point of view is that? Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could return to the Church of 1956! (Anything before John XXIII's election to the papacy).

And now, specific penalities will be leveled on anyone who 'attempts' to ordain women. Priestly shortage---eucharistic famines pending for the people are occuring everywhere in the western world, but there is no revising of current practice. Priestly celibacy (should be optional),a genuine discussion of inviting back those priests who are married---but would be willing to serve again as priests in parishes, should be moving full speed ahead (but nothing is being done). Permanent deacons should be asked if they would be willing to be ordained, train them, and ordain them, if they wish.

And women? Oh, my---their souls are created in the image and likeness of God. But when it comes to ordination---only the physical body means anything. Actually, only the sexual organs mean anything. The Vatican can no more prove that women were NOT PRESENT at the Last Supper, any more than they can prove that the Donation of Constantine and the Isidorean Decretals are authentic.

My question, which I've asked a number of times is this: If only men were present at the Last Supper where Jesus instituted two sacraments, and only men were ordained, and only men received the Body and Blood of Christ---how is it that women are able to receive the Holy Eucharist? Only men (and the Apostles, at that), should be able to receive that sacrament as well. But families partook of "The Meal" from the very beginning---women as well as men. How is that, when both sacraments were twined together---in one act?

Wonderful news. The Church's stance is getting clearer and clearer on this issue over time; I hope that it clarifies that the Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is infallible once more, thus ending all debate in practicality as in theory.

So, if a woman is ordained, by that very act she has excommunicated herself? And if a priest abuses a child, by that very act he has ... What? Child abuse is less serious? Some interesting presumptions, there.

As a member of a community pastored by a Roman Catholic Woman Priest, I can point to numerous lifelong Catholics who, absent our community and priest, would no longer consider themselves to be Roman Catholic. If our church wants to be more numerous, committed and active in the West, it should send out its woman priests to gather back the members whom it has rejected. Those rejected ones would bring their talents and the insight and compassion that rejection has taught them. Instead our hierarchy does the opposite. Our hierarchy chooses the trappings of power while in actuality that power is imploding faster and faster around them. It is a sad time for all. It could be so different.

Women's ordination is there as a distraction - notice the attention it draws. With an uncluttered focus on priestly sex abuse, it would soon become obvious who is notably missing from the victim categories the document is expected to identify. Numerous adult women around the world are known to have been impregnated and abandoned by celibate priestly sex abusers. The Vatican acts as if unaware of the situation, notwithstanding reports it has been given, for example, about nuns in Africa. Once again, the victims lose out to the need to preserve a fictitious institutional image. Dozens (?) of female ordinands are certainly a trivial problem compared to those other victims of priestly sex abuse who are currently ignored.

It would seem that "delicta graviora" should more appropriately describe the sins of the pedophile priests, the bishops and others who concealed and protected them and all those who knew about the coverup of priestly child abuse and did nothing about it. The Vatican is adrift at best.

Too many good Catholics have mothers, sisters and wives to heed this Vatican call. We know from experience and our Catholic Faith that both sexes were redeemed in the same manner by Christ. Thus both sexes should be ordained.

Rome's failure to fully recognize the full worth of women is a scandal in its own right that has lasted longer, is of greater depth and hurtfulness than the sex abuse scandal.

"delicta graviora"?? Like the ladies are going to shudder and seek reconciliation? Do really care NOW?

More examples of Caesarian imperiousness (more like Alice's Queen of Hearts or the mouse that roared) emanating from Pope Benedict's court. The old praetorian guard in their scarlet silken world fretting and wringing their hands about those damnable priestesses. LOL LOL LOL.

The problem began when the Church began baptising women. No proof that John the Baptist baptised women, let alone Jesus. And Paul, we know, wasn't into baptising - aha, maybe he was onto something. Once you're baptised everything else follows. Should have kept to male circumcision.

...and only circumcised ones who speak - whatever.

When in wonder, when in doubt,
Run in circles, scream and shout.

Rules, glorious rules!
What wouldn't we give for
That extra bit more --
That's all that we live for
Why should we be fated to
Do nothing but brood
On rules,
Magical rules,
Wonderful rules,
Marvelous rules,
Fabulous rules.

Although raised roman catholic I am now about as far from that organisation as I can be. I amy mystified as to why there is a refusal to allow God fearing faithful decent women to be priests, that is is described as a serious sin against the rules etc. However, a priest who rapes a child is nurtured, protected, cared for and formally and officially allowed to continue raping and abusing children rather than submitting to the law of the land (which supersedes their so called "canon law") and being prosecuted and jailed for their crimes, for crimes they are. The victims of these evil men have been threatened, sworn to secrecy, ignored, labelled as liars and, in too many cases, abused further by the very people who had sworn to investigate the original abuse. There are many sickening and evil organisations in this world and the roman catholic church with its pampered princes, its secrecy, its arrogance, its attempts at claiming legal supremacy over state laws and its paedophilic propensities and its financial greed is be up there with the worst of them.

I realize that it is old fashioned, but I still think it is up to God, rather than the Vatican, to judge us after we die. The Church says God is ineffable,but goes on to say it can read God's mind.

My "sense of the faithful" tells me there are no women priests, no matter what they say they are or how they say they achieved that office. So, are women priests actually priests if they are not received or recognized that way?

A clarification: I believe that the ban concerning women ordinations is , your words, "not open to debate among Catholics." is overstated. The ban is directed to theologians who want to continue to have the Catholic theologian designation. While Catholics have to accept that women will not be ordained today, there does not appear to be any ban for Catholics not claiming to be theologians or claiming a position to speak for the church to be bound by a "ban" to continue the discussion.
The issue may be better stated, not whether women can be ordinated today, that is prohibited. What ought to continue to be discussed, even "debated," is the essence of this issue: "Does gender make someone not ordainable"?
Only an open and honest public discussion will let the Holy Spirit, present in all the Church, be revealed in an affective way. One bishop's opinion carries great weight, indeed it is the starting point for discussion. However, having the authority to speak does not carry with it the power of an authoritative (i.e. universal) pronouncement.
It would be helpful in promoting discussion not to overstate the scope of the ban. Overstating focuses the debate on the use of authority (a valid discussion and applicable here too but none the less not essential to the main issue) and away from the issue at hand.

does the vatican have a sin-o-meter that indicates the relative GRAVITY of the various DELICTA? if so, what is the sinfulness of merely reading about the forbidden topic of women's ordination, as compared to writing about it on a blog?

With all the aforementioned comments, no one has mentioned Jesus's connection to women while he lived among us humans. As Jesus began his public life and ministry, he enabled the blind to see, the deaf to hear, the lame to walk. Many of these "miracles" occurred on the Sabboth. It is not mentioned in our Scriptures that Jesus asked permission to cure these people before he did so.

So the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin and Priests and all others in the Jewish hierarchy were by-passed by Jesus in order to fulfill his mission ("calling," if you will), sort of an "out of the box" ministry. Jesus also broke bread with sinners, allowed a woman to wash his feet, and asked the woman at the well for a drink of water, who also was reported to have been a Samaritan.

It would appear that all the controversey over women's ordination should not be quite as threatening to our Roman Catholic hierarchy as is purported. It seems that if the two great commandments are followed, the controversey becomes moot. And, if we are followers of Jesus, hence the term "christian," are we not mandated to act like Jesus's followers and continually ask "What Would Jesus Do?" I truly believe that Jesus would be embarassed by today's behaviour of the men in charge of his church.

If the Church wishes to be a living church, it needs to understand the needs of its followers and respond to them accordingly. Ignoring over 50% of its membership and their needs does not seem to be a rational way of reacting. The Spirit has too little room to move in the Church and maybe the only ones of us who are listening are those of us who have stepped out of the box and fallen off the cliff. Yes, we have landed safely and are grounded in Jesus's ways. We are not preaching or presiding from pedestals or from mountaintops. We are following the Spirit where she leads and listening to our people.

Will bishops be obliged to report the ordination of women to the police for investigation and charge?

What to say in response to silly, perhaps senile old men who insist on wearing lace, etc and then make even sillier pronouncements that talking about women's ordination is a serious sin....or whatever the Latin terminology is. I no longer suffer fools gladly. I read some of the very measured replies in this blog about how best to pose the question of women's ordination and my eyes glazed over. Forgive me, I'm way too old, have heard way too many arguments and read many books and articles about this topic as well as other women's rights issues. Of course I'm a woman.... to take some liberty with Sojourner Truth's famous statement. Can we just get down to the basics ? Where do all these hierarchical clerics think they came from ? Yes they all inhabited their mothers' wombs and traveled down their birth canals for starters, or were removed from the womb surgically. Many of them were nursed at the breast of those mothers or nurtured by some female if they were unfortunate enough to not have had a mother. But these same body parts, sexual and gender identifiers, preclude them from being priests? Didn't Mary, the mother of Jesus tell him what to do at the Wedding of Canaan and didn't Jesus obey her even though he didn't think "his time had come" ? Who baked the bread and cooked the Passover meal that Jesus blessed instituting the Eucharist and the priesthood, which is what we as Catholics believe ? If it weren't for Mary's "fiat" even Jesus wouldn't have become human. I'm obviously not speaking in acceptable theological terms and concepts with my "common sense" arguments. So where is the problem ? That we can only be the vehicle of producing human beings, do all the hard work of raising a family and making a home ? Some of us that are credentialed are allowed to teach in seminaries or be Spiritual Directors for priests but we can't become priests. Women also have souls and brains. Perhaps those are the body parts that should count. The Holy Spirit moves through us and speaks to us as well.

The present state of the hierarchical Church is sickening!

Pedophilia and Women’s Ordination: Two Grievous Transgressions:
http://tiny.cc/wd86o

Child Abuse Scandal: Seeking Accountability: http://tiny.cc/6i6uw