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PDF versionVatican abuse summit: $2.2 billion and 100,000 victims in U.S. alone
by John L Allen Jr on Feb. 08, 2012
Experts reject homosexuality as risk factor
ROME -- Two American experts told a Vatican summit today that the full costs of the sexual abuse crisis – including financial payouts, emotional distress, alienation among both clergy and laity, and damage to the church’s moral authority – is essentially incalculable, but massive beyond any doubt.
Focusing on the United States, the two speakers provided estimates suggesting that the American church has spent at least $2.2 billion settling litigation related to the crisis, and that there may have been as many as 100,000 total victims of clerical sexual abuse.
Before surveying the damage, Michael Bemi and Pat Neal rejected what they described as four “myths” about the crisis, which were:
- The crisis is an American problem.
- The crisis has been exaggerated by a Godless media that is antagonistic to people or institutions of faith.
- The crisis has been instigated by avaricious attorneys whose only objective is to enrich themselves financially.
- Homosexual orientation causes men to be sex offenders. (“Neither homosexual nor heterosexual orientation is a risk factor,” they said, “but rather, disordered or confused sexual orientation is a risk factor.”)
While each of those claims may have “elements of truth,” the two speakers said, “none on its own, nor all of them combined, can even begin to explain and fully describe the misconduct crisis.”
Bemi and Neal are part of the leadership team for the “Protecting God’s Children” program, currently used in 115 American dioceses, designed to create a safe environment for children and vulnerable adults.
On the financial dimension of the crisis, Bemi and Neal noted that in the United States alone, a 2004 John Jay study estimated that $472 million had been paid out at that point on sex abuse claims, and there’s been an estimated $1.8 billion paid in the period since. Those estimates are likely low, they said, for a variety of reasons, including that some dioceses and religious orders have made confidential settlements whose dollar amounts may never be known.
Globally, the Catholic church has probably paid out an analogous amount, the two experts suggested.
“It is probably reasonable to estimate that the actual ‘out of pocket’ cost of the crisis to the church internationally is well in excess of two billion dollars,” they said.
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Beyond cash payments, Bemi and Neal said, one also has to consider opportunity costs – institutions closed or never opened, ministries trimmed down or never launched, and so on, because of the crisis.
“The sad fact is that there is a huge amount of good that we could be doing now – and for years to come – that we will never do because of the money, time and effort already spent, and continuing to be expended, to address the sexual misconduct crisis,” they said.
Moving to human costs, Bemi and Neal estimated that there may have been as many as 100,000 victims in the United States.
“The John Jay study identified 10,667 victim allegations made in the period from 1950-2002, which number increased to 15,235 employing data through 2009,” they said. “In that it is a well-known and accepted phenomenon that many victims of sexual assault never report their victimization, some observers have estimated that there may be as many as 100,000 total victims in the United States alone.”
Bemi and Neal catalogued a host of physical and psychological maladies suffered by abuse victims, ranging from eating disorders and sexual dysfunction to post-traumatic stress disorder.
“Victims of sexual abuse do not ‘just get over it,’” they said.
Bemi and Neal also suggest that families of abuse victims have been damaged, along with innocent priests who have seen their reputations damaged rank-and-file laity who feel alienated, confused, and betrayed.
Widespread efforts to create a safe environment in the American church post-2002, Bemi and Neal said, have offered one important safety valve.
“For Catholics living through this in the United States, one solution to help solve the problem was to heavily engage themselves in the Church-wide safe environment and victim assistance efforts,” they said. “Countless numbers of children and vulnerable adults are spared the torments of abuse due to the coordinated efforts of the Church members who came forward to recreate safe environments and programs.”
“It must be said that for some, they see this as a personal commitment to handle a situation that many church leaders mishandled,” Bemi and Neal said.
Overall, Bemi and Neal argued that despite the damage that has been done, the experience of the United States shows that the Catholic church can recover.
“Protocols, policies, procedures and programs exist that have demonstrated their value and utility,” they said. “Experience, including much that was painful, has been gained and can be shared. Training models exist that are “tried and true” and immediately available as templates.”
“No local church has to ‘start from scratch’ or ‘reinvent the wheel,’ they said. “We already have the means to help restore the church as the most recognized force for good in the world.”
I sincerely hope and pray
I sincerely hope and pray that Bill Donohue of the Catholic League reads this. Then maybe he will cease his antagonistic attitude toward homosexual priests as the principal causes of the sexual abuse. You can be sure that 100,000 victims in the United States is a very conservative estimate, as we as the $2.2 billion. The ripple effects of this crisis will continue for some time, we are far, far from the end of this. Bill is convinced it's all behind us now.
$$ LOSSES ARE LARGER .......
$$ LOSSES ARE LARGER ....... $4+ billion of estimated direct costs to the Church worldwide is surely very understated. This estimate omits the significant lost donations from the tens of millions of Catholics who have left the Church. Many of them left, and continue to leave, in disgust at the hierarchy's misdeeds and mismanagement, especially in the child abuse scandal.
The hierarchy is like a labor union that does not have to bargain for its donations. Its members cannot generally be disciplined or terminated, unless they "mess up" like bishop Morris in Australia and try to put into practice what they preach. Some may think it is a good deal, if you can get it. But it certainly is not what Jesus mandated. Indeed, the hierarchy's usual behavior is exactly what Jesus sought to change.
Bill? Bil? Paging Bill
Bill? Bil? Paging Bill Donohoe.
What a howl “Neither
What a howl
“Neither homosexual nor heterosexual orientation is a risk factor,”. the scholars rejected that myth.
When 84% of the victims were boys.
Like society as a whole.
These scholars, can they set the SEC right too?
Take Madoff, when they found he was faking those stocks.
Maybe he should have said "My Scholars, they reject that myth".
I was in a religious order;
I was in a religious order; the priesthood is largely a "Gay" profession, (and chastity is NOT a priority.) The ratio of boys molested to girls molested is something like 8 or 9 to 1. Just look at the priests that have been convicted; the victims are OVERWHELMINGLY BOYS.
I refuse to be PC on this issue. I disagree with Bill Donohue 99% of the time, but he's right on this one.
It would appear that the RCC
It would appear that the RCC is continuing to engage in their relentless pattern of DENIAL and COVER UP. THey have chosen to IGNORE the expert analysis of prominent and well-respected Roman Catholic theologians who have. . without reservation and/or hesitation . . established a link between homosexuality and the abuse of "Catholic youth":
Our respective diocesan experience revealed that roughly 90% of priest abusers target teenage boys as their victims. Most priest abusers, we concluded, were not pedophiles in the strict sense of the term. They tend to be ephebophiles, adults whose sexual interest focused on post-pubescent teenagers. …. Relatively little attention has been paid to this phenomenon by Church authorities. Perhaps it is feared that it will call attention to the disproportionate number of gay priests.” (2)
2.D. Cozzens, The Changing Face of the Priesthood, pp. 123-124.
Excerpt from the text the ad, a letter from Donohue entitled "Straight Talk and the Catholic Church," that appeared in the NYT's
“When the National Review Board, a group of notable Catholics, issued its study in 2004, the team’s chief, attorney Robert S. Bennett, said that “any evaluation of the causes and context of the current crisis must be cognizant of the fact that more than 80 percent of the abuse at issue was of a homosexual nature.” One of the members, Dr. Paul McHugh, former psychiatrist-in-chief at Johns Hopkins, has said that “This behavior was homosexual predation on American Catholic youth, yet it’s not being discussed.” By the way, the figures after 2004 haven’t changed—eight in ten cases involve homosexuality. Worldwide, the Vatican estimates that 60 percent of the cases are same-sex, 30 percent are heterosexual and 10 percent involve pedophilia.”
Source: AMERICA / Article: Bill Donohue's Ad in NYT / Posted at: Monday, April 11, 2011
*****
Indeed the Roman Catholic priesthood has become a "gay community" as Dean Hogue and Donald Cozzens have affirmed. So . . they have identified the problem, now what are they (the hierarchy) going to do about it? Without a thorough cleansing of the temple of homosexual priests and bishops, one can expect that the abuse of children will continue.
This is yet another disturbing dimension to the ever-widening Roman Catholic Clergy Abuse SCANDAL perpetrated by the scandalous behaviour of the “church's hierarchy” and for which they must be held to ACCOUNT!
See also:
Article: The roots of the scandal July 04, 2002Source: CatholicCulture.org (a RC website)
Link: http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=21229
I would venture to say if we
I would venture to say if we got really honest about this issue, the root of the problem is not orientation, it's alcoholism, coupled with depression and loneliness.
The statistics at this point are skewed to boys because it was safer for boys to report their abuse, and altar boys were far more accessible than most girls. Girls were more likely to be ignored or accused of tempting the perpetrator. Those percentages will change. It's no accident SNAP's membership is over 50% female. As a commenter mentions below, we do another disservice to female victims by pretending it's all about evil gay priests preying on boys.
THey have chosen to IGNORE
THey have chosen to IGNORE the expert analysis of prominent and well-respected Roman Catholic theologians who have. . without reservation and/or hesitation . . established a link between homosexuality and the abuse of "Catholic youth":
------------------------------
I was unaware that Roman Catholic theologians could be considered experts in the field of psychological aspects of homosexuality. I doubt you know of what you write to make such a comment. Psychology and theology are two very distinct and different studies.
Dr. Paul McHugh, former
Dr. Paul McHugh, former psychiatrist-in-chief at Johns Hopkins, has said that “This behavior was homosexual predation on American Catholic youth, yet it’s not being discussed.”
Perhaps I would have been more accurate to say:
The Roman Catholic "hierarchy" have chosen to IGNORE the expert opinion of Dr. Paul McHugh. Additionally, prominent and well-respected Roman Catholic theologians, most notably Dean Hogue & Donald Cozzins, have testified to the prevailing homosexual culture in the Roman Catholic priesthood, which gives added weight to the conclusions of Dr. Paul McHugh.
“When the National Review Board, a group of notable Catholics, issued its study in 2004, the team’s chief, attorney Robert S. Bennett, said that “any evaluation of the causes and context of the current crisis must be cognizant of the fact that more than 80 percent of the abuse at issue was of a homosexual nature.” One of the members, Dr. Paul McHugh, former psychiatrist-in-chief at Johns Hopkins, has said that “This behavior was homosexual predation on American Catholic youth, yet it’s not being discussed.” By the way, the figures after 2004 haven’t changed—eight in ten cases involve homosexuality. Worldwide, the Vatican estimates that 60 percent of the cases are same-sex, 30 percent are heterosexual and 10 percent involve pedophilia.”
Source: AMERICA / Article: Bill Donohue's Ad in NYT / Posted at: Monday, April 11, 2011
You have written that, in
You have written that, in contrast to the typical pedophile in the larger population, some 90 percent of priest abusers have been men who target teenage boys. In the wake of the current crisis, a Vatican official and some conservatives in the United States have picked up on that observation and are calling for a ban on all homosexually oriented priests. Is that part of the solution for the priest sexual abuse crisis?
In my judgment, absolutely not. It's unfair to the many, many committed, effective, talented, celibate, and chaste gay priests who serve the church today with distinction. To suggest that gay men should not be priests is mind-boggling to me. The church has been served well by gay and straight priests throughout its history. We've had gay individuals who are saints. We've had outstanding gay bishop
--------------
June, the above question and the answer following it are taken from a U.S. Catholic Interview with Father Donald Cozzens on May 7, 2010. I'd like to call your attention to his quote, "to suggest that gay men should not be priests is mind-boggling to me." Hmmm, from the context of your writings you suggest that he has a different opinion altogether. I've also noted that you not only misspelled his name but Dean Hoge's as well. I sense your argument is very emotional and less rational. If you intend to write something in this blog please be prepared to expect correction and refutation.
Practice what you Preach In
Practice what you Preach
In his book Goodbye Good Men, investigative reporter Michael Rose documented the homosexual infiltration of the American Catholic hierarchy. Some orthodox men told him they left the seminary after suffering sexual harassment by homosexual faculty members and students, while others were drummed out as ‘too rigid’ after they admitted to being opposed to homosexuality.
In 2005, the church issued its "Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders". The policy states that those men with "deeply rooted homosexual tendencies" cannot be ordained under any circumstances.
The R.C. Catechism underpinned by the Sacred Scriptures presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity that are intrinsically disordered." “contrary to the natural law (Article 6 / 2357) Yet who uphold the RC teaching are "harassed"? ? ?
Psychotherapist Richard Sipe, a former Catholic priest who has written and spoken widely on the priesthood, says 15 percent of homosexual priests are sexually active. If all homosexual clergy were to leave the U.S. Catholic Church now, the church would lose one-third of its bishops as well!
You and Mr.Cozzens may not have a problem with "gay priests", but it is altogether inconsistent with the standards / qualifications that the Roman Catholic "hierarchy" has established for the RC priesthood! What is equally apparent is they fail to practice what they preach!
Lest you forget, you are the
Lest you forget, you are the one who cited Father Cozzens, not me, I am merely responsible for educating you about his true opinions. Girl, you gotta lot anger in you, any particular reason why? If the Catholic Church chose to rid itself of homosexual clergy, I'm afraid June you would have no Church...how does that make you feel?
Christ displayed anger when
Christ displayed anger when he overturned the tables of the moneychangers who infiltrated the temple and there are certain situations that deserve a like-minded response!
My reason for quoting Mr. Cozzens along with Mr. Hoge was simply to point out that the makeup of the Roman Catholic priesthood is predominantly homosexual.I am aware of Mr. Cozzens' misguided remarks, and with them I strenuously disagree! I am a Christian and a former Roman Catholic. I have brought this to the attention of others who may not know!
I honestly believe just as the “church hierarchy” covered up the routine practice of transferring abusive priests from one diocese to another, most of “the faithful” are ignorant of the fact that the RC priesthood has been overrun by homosexuals. This too has been a secret well-guarded by the powers that be who felt that the laity just did not need to know. I believe as well parents have a right to know if their children are being taught a morality that is at variance with orthodox Catholic teaching as it is set forth in the RC Catechism.
Those who engage in acts which the RC Catechism (Par. 2357: 141, 142) defines and describes as “depraved”, “intrinsically disordered” and “unnatural” show by their EXAMPLE they are neither fit nor qualified to teach children morals that are alien to their own experience and which they themselves do not embrace nor model.
The impact upon the youth who are being exposed to those who seek to normalize homosexuality cannot be calculated nor can it be ignored. Parents need to consider the disturbing implications of these sobering realities and how this impacts the instruction their children are receiving in the solemn matters of faith and morals from those who fail to practice what they preach! At the very least they are receiving a mixed message. At the very worst their morals are being corrupted. This should anger the Roman Catholic community.
With that in mind, I commend the following timely article to Roman Catholics written by a Roman Catholic.
Article: 'For the Love of Our Church' by Thomas Rutkoski / Source: gospamissions / Link http://www.gospa.org/pl/pages/articles/editorials.html?ra=1;id=101
EXCERPT:
Why, you may ask, would the Catholic Church want us to think this crisis is about pedophilia and not homosexuality? At this point in history, pedophiles are still met with revulsion in the public arena, as well as within the Church. Homosexuals, on the other hand, are being promoted as harmless and quite ordinary. In fact, instead of being viewed as disordered, they have finessed themselves into almost a protected species. If the truth were known, we would all be shocked at exactly how many homosexual priests we have in the Catholic Church - and they are still being protected – even after all the scandal.
Gay Priests are Dissenters
Gay Priests are Dissenters from RC teaching . . more
Fr. Andrew Walter of Bridgeport, Connecticut, who was expelled from St. Mary's Seminary in Baltimore for being "homophobic," recently told the New York Post that "activities and agendas on the part of homosexual guys were protected" in that seminary--which, due to its active and flagrant gay subculture, has long been nicknamed the "Pink Palace."
The fact is that many qualified candidates for the priesthood have been turned away for political reasons over the past three decades. Systematic, ideological discrimination has been practiced against seminarians who uphold Catholic teaching on sexuality and other issues; dissenters from Catholic teaching--particularly the Church's teaching on homosexuality--have been rewarded. This is the heart of the problem, and an understanding of this fact helps one to answer another burning question: Who is responsible for this state of affairs?
The liberal sociologist Father Andrew Greeley has called them the "Lavender Mafia"--a clique of homosexual dilettantes, acting in concert with liberal faculty members who are determined to change the doctrines, disciplines, and mission of the Catholic Church from within. Through the seminaries, this "Lavender Mafia" has brought a moral meltdown into the Catholic priesthood.
Source: CatholicCulture.org (a RC website)
Link: http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=21229
See also: For the Love of Our Church by Thomas Rutkoski / Link http://www.gospa.org/pl/pages/articles/editorials.html?ra=1;id=101
Female victims do not come
Female victims do not come forward as often as male. Female victims of priests are one group, but there are also the lesser known female victims of women religious. Pedophilia and, more often ephebophilia is very real among female religious where chastity is ignored, where nuns entered the convent to escape men,dad, brothers, and any future husband because so many were themselves victims of sexual abuse before entering OR in novitiates. It is one very sick and ignored cycle-female abusers in habits.
"Survivors and their loving
"Survivors and their loving family members"
Bob Schwiderski 1992
Contrary to Bemi's and Neal's
Contrary to Bemi's and Neal's opinion, the data in the John Jay reports strongly suggest that homosexual abuse of adolescent males is at the heart
of the crisis. A number of well-designed studies have found that men with same sex attraction are more likely to have a positive attitude to sexual relations between adult and adolescent males. Priests and seminarians with deep-seated homosexual tendencies have a serious responsibility to pursue appropriate treatment and spiritual direction in order to protect adolescent males, in particular, and the Church from further shame and sorrow.
http://lq.cathmed.metapress.com/content/l71785701643t152/?p=c8fec48d496a...
Dr. I do not agree with some
Dr. I do not agree with some of your conclusions. You do not subscribe to the "theory" of a GAY gene, I am not of the belief that homosexuality is a product of one's parental environment. I suspect you are Catholic, if so, please allow your faith to expand your scientific mind, not confine it.
What a seriously one-sided
What a seriously one-sided statement. Of course homosexual adult males have an attraction to adolescent males,just as heterosexual males have an attraction to adolescent females. Such attractions are perfectly normal. It is the ACTING ON the impulse that is the problem. To then conclude that seminarians and priests with "deep seated homosexual tendencies...[should] pursue appropriate treatment and spiritual direction..." reflects a biased and very uninformed set of attitudes. The facts are, as clarified by a number of clinicians who write and research on the matter, that it is the psychological disorders of many in the priesthood that results in abuse. And the Church needs to address the problem in this light as well. If we are going to really deal with the abuse crisis, let's be sure to confront all of the factors involved and not just one-sided interpretations.
What a dishonest argument for
What a dishonest argument for Dr. Fitzgibbon to make, when he was the psychological expert hand-picked by Bishop Finn of Kansas City-St. Joseph to advise Finn in the case of Father Shawn Ratigan.
Which involves well-proven allegations that FATHER RATIGAN WAS TAKING PORNOGRAPHIC PICTURES OF YOUNG GIRLS.
When experts such as Fitzgibbon have right at their fingertips abundant evidence to show that the gay-priests-abusing-teenaged-boys thesis does NOT explain the abuse crisis, their attempt to o shift blame for the crisis to gays is astonishing.
And deeply dishonest. And I'll go further: it's downright dirty, because 1) it trades in lies, 2) it plays on social stigmas of a stigmatize minority, and 3) it does not help us get to the heart of the abuse crisis and deal effectively with it.
He did not say gays having
He did not say gays having sex with minors explains the whole crisis. He said it is at the heart of the crisis. An important difference.
Nonsense. Dr Rick
Nonsense.
Dr Rick Fitzgibbons is not an independent unbiased expert is child sexual abuse. He is a Catholic consultant to the Congregation for the Clergy at the Vatican, Adjunct Professor John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family, and the Director of the Institute of Marital Healing, in Pennsylvania. This doesn't make him an expert in child abuse.
He also believes "homosexuality is a developmental disorder" and that you can "cure" people of what he calls "same sex attraction". This is a highly orthodox Catholic view, not shared by reputable independent experts in human sexuality.
His purpose is to trash the report of the independent experts appointed to examine and explain the child abuse crisis among Catholic clergy. He seeks to defend the church's deeply damaged reputation by blaming gay men for the child abuse, when the child abuse experts decided that “rather, disordered or confused sexual orientation is a risk factor.” In plain English: the church trained and appointed a lot of sexually disturbed men as its priests, then failed to support and monitor them to protect vulnerable children.
His own study, disputing this expert report, was published in a Catholic journal and it was not checked and peer reviewed by child abuse experts.
His purpose is to deflect blame from the Church's gross and persistent failings.
NO GAY GENE “No scientist or
NO GAY GENE
“No scientist or researcher has ever proven that homosexuality is genetic, immutable or unchangeable. In fact many of the so-called gay gene studies, such as the Bailey/Pillard “twin studies,” prove the exact opposite – homosexual behavior is not genetic. Homosexual advocates and the media have pushed the “there is a gay gene” myth for over a decade and a large share of the public has bought into this misinformation.”
Article: Myth Buster Monday: Is homosexuality genetic, immutable and unchangeable?
Source: United Families International
Link: http://unitedfamiliesinternational.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/myth-buster-...
***********
F.Y.I. - Excerpt from the text the ad, a letter from Donohue entitled "Straight Talk and the Catholic Church," that appeared in the New York Times:
“When the National Review Board, a group of notable Catholics, issued its study in 2004, the team’s chief, attorney Robert S. Bennett, said that “any evaluation of the causes and context of the current crisis must be cognizant of the fact that more than 80 percent of the abuse at issue was of a homosexual nature.” One of the members, Dr. Paul McHugh, former psychiatrist-in-chief at Johns Hopkins, has said that “This behavior was homosexual predation on American Catholic youth, yet it’s not being discussed.” By the way, the figures after 2004 haven’t changed—eight in ten cases involve homosexuality."
June, the very last place,
June, the very last place, and I emphasis "last" place I would ever look to read anything scientific, factual or qualified on the subject of homosexuality would be "United Families International". June they're serving 'home cooking'. If you subscribe to homosexuality as a choice I encourage you to get out more, meet some people of diversity, if you do I'm confident you will meet some people of character, substance, ethics, values and virtues who are homosexual. They will no doubt attest to the fact that one's sexual orientation is NOT a choice any more than you decided to be heterosexual, left or right handed. Anyone who tells you or teaches that sexual orientation is a personal choice probably still believes the world is flat. Even the Catholic Church which is always late to the match and out of breath concedes that homosexuality is not a choice. Better yet June, do some reading on homosexual behavior in the animal world on the internet, that may help you further since animals do not have a free will. Just try it, please.
Homosexuality/Celibacy at
Homosexuality/Celibacy at heart of crisis!
It should be pointed out that ascribing the cause for the RC Clergy Abuse Scandal to “homosexuality” is not to be confused with who is to blame! No one but the RC “church” herself is to blame for the Gay Community that exists within her priesthood!
Ultimately, the so-called "princes of the church" must bear the blame, the shame, the guilt, for what Rome herself reckons to be the **worst crime**, namely,the abuse of children, and the MOTHER of all COVER-UPS,for which they are solely responsible. All roads lead to Rome.
Both celibacy and homosexuality are factors that lead to the abuse of children. Both have the unqualified censure of the Word of God, which is the highest court of appeal in matters of faith and morals!
Re: Celibacy
“Now the Spirit, speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”
(God’s Word: 1 Tim. 4:1-3)
*******
Unarguably, imposed celibacy, unique to Roman Catholicism, is what is in view in this passage and that which the Holy Spirit relegates as “doctrines of devils”!
Re: Homosexuality
Without question the Bible defines the practice of homosexuality
as sin and upon it pronounces an unqualified censure. I refer you to
Romans 1:24, 26-27.
Verse 24: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves;
Verses 26-27: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet."
(See also 1 Cor. 6:9)
The RC Catechism declares homosexual practices as “intrinsically disordered” and their acts as acts of “grave depravity”
In 2005, the church issued
In 2005, the church issued its "Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders". The policy states that those men with "deeply rooted homosexual tendencies" cannot be ordained under any circumstances.
In that regard . . I would offer for those following this discussion some observations made by a Roman Catholic and taken from an article written by Atila S. Guimarães entitled: 'Should Chaste Homosexual Seminarians Become Priests?' ***After completion of the book Vatican II, Homosexuality and Pedophilia, I thought it convenient to expound and refute some of the most common sophisms that surround the two-fold crisis of homosexuality and pedophilia that scourges the Catholic Church.
- EXCERPT:
"Sophism 6 - There should be no problem in accepting homosexuals in seminaries. As long as they are chaste, they are able to fulfill their vocation.
Answer - Even if homosexual acts are not practiced, homosexuality per se is an aberration both in its tendency – the attraction of a man to another man, and in its end – the sin of sodomy. It cannot be tolerated in any degree or in any place, most especially in a place destined to form the future directors of Catholic souls and members of the Hierarchy."
********
And yet . .
In a 2001 survey Dean Hoge found that 55 percent of priests said that there clearly or probably was a homosexual subculture among priests. Father Donald Cozzens, author of “The Changing Face of the Priesthood” has estimated a relatively high proportion of gay men in seminaries tend to form a disruptive subculture (up to …50 percent).
In his book Goodbye Good Men, investigative reporter Michael Rose documented the homosexual infiltration of the American Catholic hierarchy. Some orthodox men told him they left the seminary after suffering sexual harassment by homosexual faculty members and students, while others were drummed out as ‘too rigid’ after they admitted to being opposed to homosexuality.
Messrs Hogue & Cozzens and other Roman Catholic colleagues have concluded from their research that a significant number of priests/bishops lead double lives and are neither chaste nor celibate and unarguably do not meet the criteria the RC “church” requires of her priesthood.
AGAIN . . all ROADS lead to ROME!
I think you need to
I think you need to understand that in the history of the Catholic Church there have ALWAYS been gay priests, bishops, popes and yes, even saints. How dare you state that homosexuals cannot be priests. Who gave you the authority to decide that? Your rants in this thread reveal a personal agenda more than anything. I suggest an alternative, the heart, mind and behavior of Jesus Christ. To render judgment upon others because of their sexuality is just downright discriminatory and prejudicial. Regardless of whether a person is gay, straight or other, in the RCC celibacy is presently the norm. Your attitude is anything but Christlike, wow! Ever heard of Father Mychal Judge, how about Father Henri Nouwen?
RC Church says homosexuals
RC Church says homosexuals can't be priests . .
Your comment:
“How dare you state that homosexuals cannot be priests. Who gave you the authority to decide that?”
In 2005, the church issued its "Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders". You can access the document online.
The policy states that those men with "deeply rooted homosexual tendencies" cannot be ordained under any circumstances.
That's correct, it states
That's correct, it states "deeply rooted homosexual tendencies", what you don't seem to understand is that you may become ordained if you are homosexual BUT do not have these "deep rooted tendencies". Don't you see and understand this when you read the statement?
"HOMOSEXUAL PREDATION on
"HOMOSEXUAL PREDATION on American Catholic youth . . 80% of the abuse was of a homosexual nature . . yet it's not being discussed" ? ? ?
Sir, I am thoroughly persuaded that most Roman Catholics are unaware of the homosexual infiltration of the priesthood and the risk this poses to their children. Parents have a right to know who's teaching their children? Those who engage in acts which the RC Catechism (Par. 2357: 141, 142) defines and describes as “depraved”, “intrinsically disordered” and “unnatural” show by their EXAMPLE they are neither fit nor qualified to teach children morals that are alien to their own experience and which they themselves do not embrace nor model.
Indeed the Roman Catholic priesthood has become a "gay community" and the problem has been identified by Dr. Paul McHugh as “homosexual predation on American Catholic youth”.
So it would follow that without a thorough cleansing of the temple of homosexual priests and bishops, one can expect that the abuse of “Catholic youth” will continue. That sir is the PROBLEM! I trust the following will serve as a WAKE-UP CALL for many parents who just didn't know!
**********
“When the National Review Board, a group of notable Catholics, issued its study in 2004, the team’s chief, attorney Robert S. Bennett, said that “any evaluation of the causes and context of the current crisis must be cognizant of the fact that more than 80 percent of the abuse at issue was of a homosexual nature.” One of the members, Dr. Paul McHugh, former psychiatrist-in-chief at Johns Hopkins, has said that “This behavior was homosexual predation on American Catholic youth, yet it’s not being discussed.” By the way, the figures after 2004 haven’t changed—eight in ten cases involve homosexuality. Worldwide, the Vatican estimates that 60 percent of the cases are same-sex, 30 percent are heterosexual and 10 percent involve pedophilia.”
Source: AMERICA / Article: Bill Donohue's Ad in NYT / Posted at: Monday, April 11, 2011
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June, I'm going to ask you
June, I'm going to ask you one more time. Have you ever heard of Father Mychal Judge or Father Henri Nouwen? Your rigidity and anger about the issue of homosexuality is troublesome because it lacks compassion and understanding and most of all does NOT reflect the spirit and actions of Jesus Christ. Your comments read and your tone sounds as if you have some very personal agenda in regards to this topic.
A LOVING RESPONSE . . What
A LOVING RESPONSE . . What follows is an excerpt taken from a Roman Catholic website. Let the readers of this blog each decide for themselves if this is a loving response to those struggling with the sin of homosexuality and if it reflects both the spirit and actions of Jesus Christ
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'Most Holy Family Monastery' written by a Roman Catholic / Link: http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/does_God_create_homosexuals.php
1 Corinthians 6:9-11, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
By telling homosexuals the truth that their perverse orientation is not natural, we do them a great charity and show a true love for their souls. We give them the knowledge and the means to cure themselves. And they don’t need an exorcism to cure themselves. If a homosexual ceases to commit all mortal sins and changes his or her life; if he or she holds the fullness of the Catholic Faith without compromise, which includes a profession of faith; if he or she makes a sincere sacramental confession of all mortal sins to a validly ordained priest; if he or she has a strong prayer life and a true devotion to the Mother of God and the holy Rosary, then he or she will be delivered from homosexuality without any doubt. Our Lord tells us that: “And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:32) By knowing the truth and by employing the means to deliver themselves, homosexuals can and will be delivered from their perverse orientation.
*********
LFA . . if you think that endorsing, condoning and sanctioning homosexuality equates to love, then you are woefully ignorant of both the purpose and intent of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I have commented quite extensively and quoted very liberally from the Bible on this matter throughout this thread and my thoughts are set forth therein.
I am a Christian and it is to God's Word I defer in matters of faith, morals and practice.
I have endeavored to speak these painful truths in love.
Where do you think
Where do you think homosexuals come from? They don't drop out of the sky, there's no secret factory, no plot to produce more, so tell me how is it we have had so many homosexuals throughout history? Maybe God created them that way, yep, no one else did, must be God, right? If you still hold to the belief that homosexuality is a choice I invite you once again to examine the issue of homosexual behavior in the animal world, hopefully, this may open your eyes to the fact that it is NOT a choice but also very evident outside the human species as well. As long as you keep quoting questionable texts from Scripture which you and others have used to condemn homosexuality you remain closed to the research of science and psychology. You may as well hold to the conviction of how the earth was envisioned in the Bible, factually errant.
Your suggestion that God made
Your suggestion that God made homosexuals that way borders on blasphemy. Mankind are all born with a sinful nature, but no one is "born a homosexual". The Bible relegates homosexuality to sin and that is sufficient for me. You ask: "Where do you think homosexuals come from?" My Answer: Because homosexuals cannot procreate, they must recruit, groom, initiate and orientate young men into the homosexual lifestyle.
Judging from your comments, it would appear you have more respect for mere mortals . . the men of science psychiatry, and psychology whose articles you read in the periodicals you subscribe to than in the God of Creation and His Word?
You would do well to heed the admonition found in 1 Cor. 3:18-20:
"If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain."
Christians are called to “walk by faith”, and you sir are sadly lacking in it. Never mind . . there is a cure for that . . “faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.” (Rom. 10:17)
Perhaps you might begin with Hebrews Chapter 11, where in Verse 3 we read:
“Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”
Indeed I do hold to the conviction of how the earth was envisioned and came into existence as revealed in the Bible as factually errant. Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son has so testified that the record found in Genesis is TRUE!
“But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.” (Mark 10:7-8)
Again Christ refers to the creation when He said:
“For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.” (Mark 13:19
Christ is the “Word made flesh.” (John 1:14) In the Gospel of John we read:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word as with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:1-3) What could be plainer? Again I would commend God's Word to you . . the Holy Scriptures "which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith which is in Jesus Christ"! (II Tim. 3:15)
How sad that you think
How sad that you think someone would deliberately choose a life of discrimination, alienation and disaffection. If you truly doubt the harsh and cruel attitude that homosexuals receive from so-called Christians, just review what you have written throughout this blog. Why would anyone wantonly choose to be so disliked?
How sad that you think that
How sad that you think that those who uphold Christian truth are harsh and cruel. How sad that you think that someone who quotes God's Word is harsh and cruel. How sad that you think the church must compromise the Gospel in order to accommodate a peculiar class of sinners! That is not the role of the church. The comments I have contributed to this exchange have been civil and respectful and are born out of a conviction of the truth. You have taken them as a personal affront. Your comments directed toward me and others have been somewhat derisive, though I have overlooked them.
Notwithstanding, I stand by what I have said. Those who do not stand for something will invariably fall for anything!
People are not born to be homosexuals anymore than they are born to be adulterers or fornicators. Sexual immorality, regardless of what form it takes, is contrary to the Christian's walk. (1 Cor. 6:9-11)
The commission Christ gave his church was to “go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” (Mark 16:15) The rite of passage for all sinners into the Christian religion is repentance of sins and faith in Jesus Christ. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. This is something of which I can speak experimentally. There has been much in my life of which I have had to repent and many sinful practices which I have abandoned after my conversion. The tenour of my life has been completely transformed. Praise God . . such is the power of the Gospel! (Rom. 1:16)
It is in God's Word that all sin is defined. Unarguably God defines homosexuality as sin. (Rom. 1:18,22, 24-27) It is in God's Word as well that the remedy for sin is set forth in the Gospel of our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ. The intent of the Gospel is to “call sinners to repentance” (Matt. 9:13) that they might be delivered from their bondage to sin, (John 8:34-36) and bring them to faith in Jesus Christ. That is the very intent and purpose of the Gospel.
When Christ saves a man . . a woman . . from their sins, he becomes *“a new creature in Christ” and in His strength and by His grace they are enabled to turn from their sin (s) and live unto the praise and glory of God. This is the very essence of conversion.
As Christ said . . "ye must be born again" (John 3:3-8)
Praise God . . this I know by experience!
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;" (Rom. 1:16a)
LFA, I would once again commend God's Word to you. I sense you are in need of deliverance. May God be pleased to be gracious to you in this regard.
Once again, I have endeavored by God's grace to speak God's truth to you in love. (Eph. 4:15)
JuneAnnette,
a sinner by birth; a Roman Catholic by tradition
made a Christian by God's grace by virtue of the “new birth” (John 3:3-8)
Sadly June even the devil can
Sadly June even the devil can quote scripture and many who are well versed in their religious beliefs often use them to hurt or disparage others. Regrettably, in the name of their god they do even monstrous evil acts, including flying airplanes into buildings. I never ceased to be amazed how people can use God for their own ends. The commandment to love is NOT an option!
The ultimate expression of
The ultimate expression of Christian love is demonstrated when the Gospel is proclaimed truthfully! As Christ has said . . "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
If you remember it was the devil who first said . . "Yea, hath God said".
(Gen. 3:1) This he did to tempt Eve in an effort to cast doubt in her mind as to the veracity of God's Word. This he continues to do in an effort to frustrate the salvation plan of God in Jesus Christ.
You can choose to ignore the Scripture passages I and others have shared with you from God's Word that speak to the sin of homosexuality, but that does not render them any less truthful. I can assure you I have sought only to share with you the "truth as it is in Jesus." (Eph. 4:21)
The purpose and intent of the Gospel is to convict us of our sin and show us our need for a Saviour. I have testified that this was the very solemn effect it had upon my soul.
I can well remember when I heard the command of Jesus to "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)
This was the response it evoked in me:
"God be merciful to me a sinner." (Luke 18:13)
It is the work of the Spirit to convict us of our sins.
Thanks be to God it is also the work of the Spirit to reveal Christ to us as He is presented and offered in the Gospel as the antidote for our sin.
How sweet was the day when I heard for myself the comforting words of Christ resonate in my heart . . .
"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." (Matt. 11:28-30)
Now I too have "joy and peace in believing" the Gospel. (Rom. 15:13) By faith, I left the burden of my sin at Calvary which my Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ bore to the cross upon which He was hung, and I like many others, have found rest for my weary soul in the "finished" work of Jesus Christ.
(John 19:30)
Your reaction to GOD's Word is altogether contrary to the response His Word evoked in larrell, who was set free from the bondage of the homosexual lifestyle, which I posted above. If you have not read it, perhaps you may wish to reconsider doing so. It can be accessed here:
A LOVING TESTIMONY of God's LOVE, GRACE & DELIVERANCE
The entire testimony entitled '
'Overcoming Homosexuality by larrell on July 9, 2009' can be read here:
Source: 2PraiseGod.com
Link: http://2praisegod.com/testimony/2009/07/overcoming-homosexuality/
The narrow road,of which Christ speaks, that leads to eternal life is a pathway marked by repentance and faith which all sinners must travel they would gain heaven at last! (Matt. 7:14)
I know you are convinced that
I know you are convinced that God is on your side, but as Abraham Lincoln once stated, the more important question is, Are you sure you are on His? No doubt you have a member of your family, either immediate or extended, who is homosexual, if not you probably know one. I will continue to pray for you that you will act with the heart and mind of Christ, not in condemnation or judgment, because they are reserved to God, but with the compassionate embrace of Christ who loves the weak, the sinner and the outcast. If you cannot do that, no matter how well you can quote Scripture you will not have understood its message. If you cannot see a homosexual as a brother or a sister, there will always be darkness, regardless of the time of day.
Parting Thoughts from Albert
Parting Thoughts from Albert Mohler, Biblical Commentator & president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
- EXCERPT:
"The Bible clearly, repeatedly, consistently, and comprehensively reveals the sinfulness of all homosexual behaviors. This truth is set within the larger context of the Bible’s revelation concerning the Creator’s plan and purpose for human sexuality — a context that is centered in the marital union of a man and a woman as the exclusive arena for human sexual activity. This flies in the face of the contemporary demand for the full normalization of homosexuality.
The normalization of homosexuality simply cannot be accepted by anyone committed to biblical Christianity. The new secular orthodoxy demands that Christians abandon the clear teachings of Scripture, and Christians must understand that the sinfulness of all homosexual behaviors is not only a matter of biblical authority, but also of the Gospel. To deny that sin is sin is to deny our need for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Christians cannot accept any teaching that minimizes sin, for it is the knowledge of our sin that points us to our need for atonement, salvation, and the forgiveness of that sin through the cross of Jesus Christ.
Christians cannot avoid the debate over reparative therapy, nor can we enter the debate on secular terms. We must bring to this conversation everything we know from God’s Word about our sin and God’s provision for sinners in Christ.
We will hold no hope for any sinner’s ability to change his or her own heart, and we will hold little hope for any secular therapy to offer more than marginal improvement in a sinner’s life.
At the same time, we gladly point all sinners to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, knowing that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. [Romans 10:13] We hold full confidence in the power of the Gospel and of the reign of Christ within the life of the believer. We know that something as deeply entrenched as a pattern of sexual attraction is not easily changed, but we know that with Christ all things are possible."
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Article: Reparative Therapy, Homosexuality, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ
by: Dr. Albert Mohler
Link: http://www.albertmohler.com/2011/07/19/reparative-therapy-homosexuality-...
Dr. Mohler may be qualified
Dr. Mohler may be qualified to speak about Scripture BUT he does not have the qualifications to speak about reparative therapy. I see no indication that he has any psychological degrees. He may as well be discussing astronomy, that too is mentioned in the Bible.
LFA you may be qualified to
LFA you may be qualified to speak on Psychology, but it is painfully clear from your posts that you are lacking in any knowledge of the Scriptures. You reject the ultimate authority of the Scriptures which relegates homosexuality, along with all sexual immorality, as sin, and you are openly hostile toward those who defer to them in matters of faith and morals.
You even reject the conclusions of some within the scientific community who have concluded there is no "gay gene".
Your "bible" consists of your medical journals and those experts who share your psycho-theological position, with which you seem to find comfort.
Your theology is of your own making.
Your condescending attitude and insulting tone are in evidence throughout your posts with anyone who disagrees with you and lack any of the love of Christ you seem to think you possess and accuse others of displaying towards others.
Your academic credentials may well be impressive, but they bear no relevance to matters which belong to the realm of God's unchanging truth as revealed in His Word . . the BIBLE!
Mr. Mohler has rightly declared the loving Scriptural / Christian position on homosexuality, and one with which Christ's disciples are not at liberty to compromise.
Dear Child of God, I have
Dear Child of God, I have three post graduate degrees, two in theology. Having studied scripture for 12 years in the original Hebrew, Greek and later Latin, I am more than competent to discuss both the Old and the New Testament. What I object to is anyone who can recite quotations, cite chapters and verses and NEVER seem to understand what the message means. Sadly, you know the words, I just don't think you understanding the meaning and spirit of them. For your information the word "homosexual" did NOT appear in print until 1869 by an Austrian novelist named Karl-Maria Kertbeny. So if this word did not exist prior to 1869 what exactly were the writers of the passages you cite referring to? The word "homosexual" had yet to be used.
TAUGHT of GOD . . What I
TAUGHT of GOD . .
What I learned of God's Word was not acquired in a classroom, but by sitting at the feet of the Master who said. . “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.” (John 6:45)
The pharisees and scribes . . the religious rulers / scholars in Jesus' day were wise in their own conceit and saw themselves as intellectually superior, learned, and enlightened and thought themselves in no need of instruction and would not be taught of the carpenter's son. As it is written: "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." (II Tim. 3:7)
One can acquire an academic knowledge of religion, and yet be ignorant of a true knowledge of God, possessed only by those who are brought by grace into a real and vital relationship with HIM through His Son. This knowledge is communicated by the Holy Spirit, given only to those who believe and it is His Spirit that guides them into Truth. (See John 14:15-17)
“But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”
- God's Word as it is found in 1 Cor. 2:10-11:
Judging from your comments,it would appear you place a great deal of weight on man's rationale and intellect. This is the spirit of the world, or if you like . . the mindset of the world. Contrariwise, Christians are said to have the “mind of Christ.” (1 Cor. 2:16)
Re: your comment regarding homosexuality:
It doesn't take a theologian to figure out what is in view here:
“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” (Lev. 18:22)
The word abortion isn't found in the Bible either, yet we know it violates God's commandment: “Thou shalt not kill”
As I said, your "bible" consists of your medical journals and those experts who share your psycho-theological position and who seek to both sanction and normalize homosexuality. Your theology is of your own making.
Christians relegate these things to the realm of religion and morality and appeal to the ultimate authority of the Word of God. No matter how compelling you think your arguments are, Christians who know their Bibles know better!
JuneAnnette, LFA has set up
JuneAnnette, LFA has set up what is commonly referred to in Psychology / Political circles as a “straw man” question. Let me explain. He has his “ANSWERS” for either answer that you were asked to give. If you were to answer “NO” then he would come back and say:
“Well JuneAnnette” than you DO NOT believe in what the Bible says we are to do! SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!”
If you were to answer “YES” then he would say:
“Well JuneAnnette then you condone homosexuals, don't you? But you have been saying all along that you do not. So what is it JuneAnnette? HUH . . HUH . . HUH? ?”
June, he is trying to trap you as the Pharisees tried to do several times with Jesus! He considers himself “smart / very smart”, but like the Pharisees he just doesn't get it.
He has been taught / brainwashed that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the “whole world”, which HE DID NOT! He came to pay for the sins only of those whom the “Father gave to Him” . . the elect of God” The payment was He had to die! Your friend does not know and/or understand what Jesus said!.
The Bible declares that “no drunkards, no fornicators, no adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, etc. shall inherit the Kingdom of Heaven . . and such were some of you” Note the word “WERE”! Those that are referred to as “WERE” have been SAVED and JESUS died for their sins. Thus there has been a change! They no longer do what they formerly did; they have repented. They “were” in the past one way . . but now they are changed from the way they “were”.
Suggest that LFA quit trying to be a “wiley Pharisee” and read and study the WORD of GOD!
I would strongly urge you JuneAnnette and others to avoid this fellow, as he appears a bit unstable.
I hope this may be of some help.
Regards, Harrison
June please instruct Harrison
June please instruct Harrison that Jesus died for the sinners of the whole world, you might refer him to this quote, Romans 5:8, "...while we were still sinners Christ died for us." That June includes EVERYONE, yes the whole world! By the way, the Pharisees did not trap Jesus because they did not the wisdom and understanding so I will ask you again the question, is it a yes or a no?
Harrison, I wholeheartedly
Harrison,
I wholeheartedly agree with your keen analysis of LFA's last comment. Thank you for interjecting your thoughtful and perceptive observations into the discussion and exposing his real motive and intent! Once more LFA has revealed his Pharisee-like spirit!
Hopefully he will take time to reflect on what you have said. I sense he is a deeply troubled soul in need of our prayers.
I will most assuredly heed your wise counsel.
Only God can read the heart
Only God can read the heart and mind of another. You have no knowledge of my motives and intents, to claim otherwise further raises my suspicions about you.
Harrison, I just got back
Harrison, I just got back home and noticed that my most recent comment in response to yours was placed under your name. Remind me next time when I'm at your place to make sure I enter my name when commenting.
Thanks again for lunch and the use of your PC.
By the way, I received an e-mail from my friend in South Africa and I'll be posting his thoughts shortly.
June, I'm looking forward to
June, I'm looking forward to reading the e-mail!
Regards,
Harrison
Everything I ever learned
Everything I ever learned about God was taught to me by others. God has yet to appear to me and share any personal dialogue, so I am curious, who is the Master that you refer to who taught you? Another human being I suspect, therefore, I commend to you and your Bible study group this thought, God's love for us is UNCONDITIONAL....if you cannot accept OR understand this basic concept we are universes apart, I prefer my concept of God to yours.
CORRECTION to my most recent
CORRECTION to my most recent comment:
LFA, Your condescending attitude and insulting tone are in evidence throughout your posts with anyone who disagrees with you and are devoid of the love of Christ you seem to think you possess and accuse others of LACKING.
LFA, in Christian love I
LFA, in Christian love I commend the following article to you and others following this discussion who may be struggling with the sin of homosexuality:
'Gay'-Rights Leader Quits Homosexuality
by Art Moore, WorldNetDaily
Link: http://greaterhope.org/Gay%20Rights%20Leader%20Quits.htm
EXCERPTS from Article:
He was a rising star in the "gay rights" movement, but Michael Glatze now declares not only has he given up activism – he's no longer a homosexual.
Glatze – who had become a frequent media source as founding editor of Young Gay America magazine – tells the story of his transformation in an exclusive column published today by WND.
Finally, after a decade in which his leadership role in the homosexual activist world grew – but alongside it, a mysterious inner conflict – he says he finally was "liberated."
In fact, he writes in his WND column today, "'coming out' from under the influence of the homosexual mindset was the most liberating, beautiful and astonishing thing I've ever experienced in my entire life."
"There is nothing that would give me more pleasure," he wrote to Kupelian, "than to say the Truth about 'homosexuality' and atone for my sins in that regard."
In his column, Glatze doesn't mince words, calling homosexual sex purely "lust-based," meaning it can never fully satisfy.
"It's a neurotic process rather than a natural, normal one," he writes. "Normal is normal – and has been called normal for a reason."
Glatze said he thought opponents of homosexual activism were "mean and crazy, and they wanted to hurt me."
"I thought they were out to get me," he said. "They made me really, really mad – and scared, I think. I wanted them to go away."
Glatze said he couldn't allow himself to think they were sincere in their beliefs.
But he now has deep respect for a Christian aunt who disapproved of his lifestyle.
She "was never judgmental, but always firm," he said.
I have one final question for
I have one final question for you since you have been citing Scripture at me from the outset, ready?
Do you recall the statement by Jesus, "Love one another as I have loved you".
Okay I know you know the verse but are you ready to do what Jesus did? He died for us, that was His ultimate expression of love. Now my question is, June, would you give your life and die for a homosexual? Jesus did and He's asking us to do the same, you in or are you out on this one? Remember, He died for sinners, you on board or not, it's an easy answer, YES or NO....not maybe, no conditions, stipulations or qualifications, are you willing to love another as He loved us? Get back to me, remember, it's yes or no....if you cannot say yes or no, you know you're avoiding the question.
I am utterly shocked that
I am utterly shocked that well designed studies show gay men have a more positive attitude towards sex with adolescent males. Shocked I say. Dr. Fitzgibbons you might have added that you are also the professional who advised Bishop Finn that Sean Ratigan was fit to return to ministry. Oh, I forgot Ratigan was heterosexual in his sexual orientation problems, so he must not have had any reason to pursuit appropriate treatment and spiritual direction in order to protect prepubescent girls, in particular, and the Church from further shame and sorrow.
Didn't they teach you about projection and transference in your professional training, or did you get most of your training from pharmaceutical reps?
I think many priests were
I think many priests were involved in sex with adolescent males at a time when this was viewed more tolerantly by society than it is now. It is now lumped with pedophilia and child abuse, in a confusing way, that may have more to do with homophobia and erotophobia than with concern for child welfare. Primitive ex-gay therapies are not at all needed; in fact they are an abuse. If a priest were compulsively involved with minors, despite the stark moral and legal reasons opposing, he might benefit from normal psychiatric counselling. But I imagine that like most gay men, gay priests now fully realize that sex with minors is a nono. Btw, to say that gay men are more likely to be sympathetic to sex with male minors is as uninformative as to say that heterosexual men are more likely to be sympathetic to sex with female minors.
And the Vatican City States
And the Vatican City States supports either orientation in their pursuit of young teenagers in that the age of consent is 12 for both boy and girls. Which is kind of odd, since there probably aren't too many girls hanging around in the Vatican City States.
In my view, the Church's
In my view, the Church's glacial and reluctant responses to this crisis worldwide has devastated / destroyed any moral authority it previously enjoyed. I know the Church has of late been making efforts to overcome this huge issue. To me the only way of return to moral authority is to humbly face squarely up to its moral responsibility by openly and aggressively firing responsible leaders and perpetrators (and not by sending them to Rome to work inside the cocoon); openly and sincerely acknowledging - and regretting - ecclesial culpability; and instituting very transparent lay oversight of almost all Church operations, at all levels including the Most High. These actions, plus right and perfect behavior going forward, plus time - likely many years, if not decades - may yet bring a return of the vaunted (and seriously needed) moral authority we are missing just now.
John L. Allen, Jr.
John L. Allen, Jr. reports...
Experts reject homosexuality as risk factor
...you decide.
As for me and my house, we shall laugh in NCR's face.
What code is in the image?
ASCII
Oy. Useless bureaucracy. ". .
Oy. Useless bureaucracy.
". . . demonstrated their value and utility" ?!
". . . tried and true" training models?!
'Fess up, Protecting God's Children: how much are the US dioceses paying you? What data do you have to support your claims? When I asked your front office , it responded with "data" claiming people felt more informed. That's not effectiveness data!
Bureuacracy will not fix this. PGC classes are an immense waste of pew peoples' time. All they do is protect the bishops, who can claim that they tried. I for one am not spending any more time or money protecting clerics. "One size fits all" required classes are disrespectful of folks who already know all this stuff.
Have us all sign the statement, "Don't be alone with a kid, leave the door open when you are with kids, and if you smell something fishy, call [fill in the diocese hotline #]." Simple--and just as "proven effective" as PGC.
Sorry, emperor gots no clothes on this one.
I don't give a damn about the
I don't give a damn about the $$$$... it is those 100,000 children that I keep thinking about...and that is not all, there are still scared silent victims who to just too afraid to speak up.
How one earth was this able to happen? POWER....!!
Judy Jones, SNAP Midwest Associate Director, USA, 636-433-2511
"Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests" and all clergy.
(SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, is the world's oldest and largest support group for clergy abuse victims.
SNAP was founded in 1988 and has more than 12,000 members. Despite the word "priest" in our title, we have members who were molested by religious figures of all denominations, including nuns, rabbis, bishops, and Protestant ministers and increasingly, victims who were assaulted in a wide range of institutional settings like summer camps, athletic programs, Boy Scouts, etc. Our website is SNAPnetwork.org)
Yeah, right, "'Protecting'
Yeah, right, "'Protecting' God's Children" worked really well in the Kansas City-St. Joseph diocese. Parents, teachers, and the principal did *exactly* what they were supposed to do - report the odd behavior of Shawn Ratigan to the diocese. Their letter was *ignored*, and Flynn claimed he never read it. Some months later, a computer tech found child porn on Shawn Ratigan's computer and reported it to the diocese. Again, the diocese did NOTHING. Ratigan attempted suicide and was sent to a convent to "recover" from his "illness". He then went on to attend birthday parties, first communions, and an easter egg hunt, snapping more child porn pictures along the way (including upskirt shots of a girl while dining with her family). When Ratigan was finally busted, there was a whole slew of *new* child porn pictures on all of his electronic devices. ALL of Ratigan's victims have been FEMALE (including the FEMALE infant having her diaper removed and bits exposed.
Oliver O'Grady, recently sentenced for child porn, only victimized FEMALES.
Marie Collins, a FEMALE, was raped by a priest while she was in the hospital. Abuse outlined in the various Irish reports show that FEMALES were abused just about as often as males if not more so.
James Porter's victims were roughly half male, half FEMALE (about 50 of each, over 100 in all).
A priest from Cleveland St. Patrick's who killed himself within the last 10 years when he was about to be busted ONLY victimized FEMALES.
Clergy sex abuse in Africa is directed mostly at FEMALES, especially young nuns who would be unlikely to carry/transmit the HIV virus.
I was sexually assaulted by a newly minted Alter Christus in 1964. I am FEMALE.
Perpetuating the myth that this is a "homosexual" problem turns all FEMALE victims into liars and worse (as RCC Inc says all females, no matter how young, are evil temptresses out to defile holy male purity and must be kept in a subservient position to males at all times). Females know because of patriarchal domination of Abramic cultures that if they report a rape, they will be raped over and over again by the so-called "justice" system, so we know better than to bother reporting. There is a lot more sympathy for male victims, even with the potential for being labeled "gay". If only ~10% of male victims report, then the number of females reporting clergy sex abuse must be a lot smaller.
Thanks for making this
Thanks for making this important point. So many of the posts are women that were raped/molested as little girls.
I am very sorry for what you endured in 1964.
None of this garbage should ever occurred.
Thank you Mother Hen! I was
Thank you Mother Hen! I was five when it happened, then in the first months of first grade, I was (what I understand now) sexually abused by my first grade nun, who refused to let me use the "lavatory" (you got beat if you used the word "bathroom", but I asked *perfectly* according to the nun's instructions and I was refused) until I wet myself at my desk (despite my best efforts not to) on three occasions. I learned this was a form of sexual abuse from the reports out of Ireland, which described similar abuse related to children's bodily functions (punishment for going, for not going, for vomiting, for doing whatever displeased the priests and nuns at a given moment, and what displeased them constantly changed). Horrible.
BTW, to correct my posting, the bishop I referred to is Robert Finn, not Flynn. My bad!
I think the damage to the
I think the damage to the Church's moral authority has not been sufficiently emphasized. . . And does pride cometh before a fall?
These 2 are firm believers
These 2 are firm believers that what they say are what is all that matters, & that is my opinion. The global payout is IMO way over $4 bil as has already been stated. The sexual tendencies of these @ 6,000 priests in america with an estimated 100,000 victims, in my case, came down to the perp being confused in his sexual identity. His "not knowing" what he liked or preferred sexually, IMO & others, stemmed from going into the priesthood at a very young age & being forced to be celebit.
There is an inherint flaw in these monestaries where you have Priests teaching young men about sexual feelings & how to "deal" with them in a holy way, when most of them in fact never had a "sound/sexual" relationship with a woman themself!!
Again, IMO, If the church would have only listened to the advice, wisdom & guidance of Thomas Doyle, most of this wouldn't be happening now.
Until the Hierarchy totally admits their own corruptness, & cleans up their own mess & becomes transparent as they say they are, much of the same will remain status quo.
In times like these it is
In times like these it is important to remember to stay in the here & now, & focus on the sloution, NOT the problem. I just wish the leaders that asked Fr. Thomas Doyle to assess the situation & offer a solution, would have listened to his advice instead of castigating him & his contibutors.
He has been proven to be oh so correct in many ways!
The person that created the
The person that created the headline to this article, and the others in the "Vatican Abuse Summit" series, hasn't helped anyone to accurately understand the content of these articles.
According to John Allen, Bemi and Neal state that "some observers have estimated that there may be as many as 100,000 total victims in the United States alone.” Yes, "some observers" have "estimated" that but that doesn't mean that Bemi and Neal necessarily agree with that estimate, or, more importantly, that any credible expert in the field actually believes it. Literally anyone writing on the subject could come within the scope of the term "some observers," regardless of their expertise or credibility. The more important question is: who are these observers, when did they claim this and what proof did they provide?
It is absolutely extraordinary that a number of commenters have gone from the assertion that "some observers" (of unknown expertise) have made a claim, to the certainty that that claim must therefore be true. The headline writer should be aware that there are people out there that mindlessly and uncritically accept whatever a headline says (assuming it confirms their biases, of course.)
It might also be worth mentioning what they are "experts" in.
The majority of cases in the
The majority of cases in the U.S. were homosexual in nature. There is no doubt about it. As a someone who has worked within the Church (specifically a U.S. seminary) for several years I know of many therapist priests who had counciled priest abusers who told me publically that all of the abusers counciled had previous homosexual relationships with other adult men before abusing teenage boys. The USCCB citing the John Jay study uses the term "euphepophelia" as a fancy way of dismissing homosexuality. The John Jay states that 80% of the cases involved priests and post-pubescent MALES, but does not address the issue of the previous sexual relationships of the priest abusers. This is nothing less than homosexual predation (common in the homosexual sub-culture, homosexual men preying on young teens). In an effort to be politically correct, the Church is deflecting the real issue.
What make the church a
What make the church a homosexual "cult" is the fact that the clergy is a "closed society" and will not admit women into the priesthood or married men into the priesthood. One has to become suspicious as to why? Less than 3% to 10% of the general population of males are involved in same sex attractions, and yet 30% to 80% of the priesthood is homosexual, of which Richard Sipe has stated that all studies since 1950's show 50% of the priesthood is sexually active at all times. What this shows is that a minority within the general population controls the Roman Catholic church which 1.5 billion followers. That a lot of power for such a small segement of the population which clearly doesn't want to share it's power with hetrosexual men or with women.
I am not convinced however that opening the doors to women priests or married men will mean that children will not be abused or priests will not have sex outside of his/her vowed relationships. But, I am convinced the church will become more honest and mature about the sexual lives of it's clerics. The truth will set you free. I think we would become a more open, honest, and loving church if we abolished the homosexual "cult" that currently reigns, especially among the ranks of the Bishops, Cardinals and religious superiors.
Hetrosexual and married clergy hasn't destroyed the Protestant, Orthodox, or Jewish religions. But, an exclusive homosexual "cult" is destroying the Catholic Church. I am sure the "saints" among the homosexual clergy would welcome hetrosexual married priests and women priests with open arms.
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