Reflections after the American Catholic Council meeting

"It’s clear as never before: the denial of women’s equality just makes no sense to most Catholics anymore, especially these Catholics."

It's a good thing that women's ordination is not at all an issue of gender equality, then. To think that it is would be a gross oversimplification that has no place in any rational and intelligent theological discussion.

"The issue of gay and lesbian rights has become mainstream in the movement"

What movement? Is this movement producing actual priests? The Magisterium is not going to undermine and deny its own authority on the basis of people threatening to leave the Church. Expecting them to, or even thinking that this is a possibility worth considering at all, is an exercise in total futility.

"There is something increasingly “American” about this movement. The leaders of the conference formulated a “Catholic Bill of Rights and Responsibilities” modeled on our own Bill of Rights. The whole crowd affirmed it."

Another problem -- such activities are generally found only in the US and only supported by liberal Americans. The Church is a world church, something that NCR and its ilk too often forget. Internationally, favor rests definitively on orthodoxy.

I was not going to make this comment because it can seem like so many who just make sarcastic one liners, but my tone is not sarcastic, it is, unfortunately, very sincere. You say that short of Jesus Christ reappearing on earth, no one expects the hierarchy to change course any time soon. But, I doubt that many in the hierarchy would recognize Jesus if he were to appear here on earth. Perhaps not many of us would either, I'm not sure I would.

Note not a word about Jesus or doing his will. Its all about what we want. Thats why this movement is bound to fail even as it is by the author's own admission greying.

"only God knows?" -- Actually, you'll all be dead soon, and the Church will move on without you, as it's been doing, while you're still stuck in 1965.

Yes, it can and will get worse. The Vatican has stacked the Episcopacy with reactionaries who want to drag us back to the 16th century. All we can do is resist where we can and hope that there is some change in our lifetime.

You spoke correctly when you said "a graying crowd." Certainly you are aware that the young Catholics want nothing to do with your ideas. Young women are joining traditional communities "in droves" to use your favorite expression.

I recent spoke with a young priest who is an avid reader of all Catholic issues from both sides. He is familiar with the liberal and conservative perspectives. I asked him about about a blog you wrote and he did not know who you were. Trust me; he is not your average priest.

Yopu do realize that many of the dissenters are of your age and there are few young dissenters to replace you.

I'm just not sure why you folks are Catholic. The teaching of the Church on the Eucharist and Consecration is clear. The teaching of the Church on homosexuality (and the compassion with which we are show) is clear. The Church's teaching on ordaining women is clear. The dignity women have is not based on doing everything a man can, much like my dignity is not in doing everything a woman can do (I can't bear a baby, for example).

Again, I'm just not sure what keeps you here. You seem to disagree with nearly everything the Church teaches. You disagree with the infrastructure. You disagree with the sacraments. You disagree with the Mass. Why not just form your own congregation or your own sect? I say this without anger or without trying to be sarcastic, but I do feel bad that in all of your zeal, you seem to have no humility. You have made yourself your own authority and yet have provided NO reason or support for why people should follow you. There is no path to victory here, and to spend one's life in the vain hope of your own personal victory is quite sad, I think.

Exactly right on the last three conclusions:

1. The ACC is graying -- tick, tick, tick

2. White and privileged (and probably female) -- unattractive to anyone but well-to-do white women (and old ones at that).

3. Small and parallel -- i.e. a split off sect

Wake up and smell the Coffee, read the REAL signs of the times . . .

#4 must be why the bishop is saying he is investigating the priest who celebrated Mass because of illicit con-celebration of the laity. And yet the conference spokespeople say they do not understand why the bishop is worried about this illicit lay con-celebration! Something doesn't add up here.

If excommunication doesn't matter (#7), and visible communion in a single, unified, visible church body doesn't matter (#3), and priests as consecrators of the Eucharist don't matter (#4), I can't help wondering what does matter. Do these people want to replace the entire edifice of Catholic Christianity? How, if it all, is this movement grounded in 2000 years of Catholic Christian theology, tradition, and teaching?

If it's a graying crowd, maybe that's because young people like me (28) do not see how a reform movement like this fits into the Catholic Church, always new yet always the same.

Hey, I, too, was there at the Woman's Ordination Conference in Detroit in 1975! Bishop Gumbleton was there, too.

I'm of that "graying" generation--- barely, being just past the half-century mark.

Some of my generation have settled from the dynamic spirituality we knew at, say, our Campus Ministry Centers to be "pay, pray, and obey" Catholics settled into the mundane parish life and the Knights of Columbus.

The rest of us, confident in a generation of Paul VI bishops, figured that by the time we were 40, or maybe 50, all of the reforms we expected would happen. It was just a matter of time until a married couple might serve as co-pastors of a Catholic Parish...or so we thought. The Church would see the light of day on contraception and re-marriage, and would have found a way to address the abortion issue that wasn't so single-minded and rhetoric-driven. Well, we're tired of waiting. Especially now that new, ultra-Orthodox, confrontational, Bishops are now members of our generation, unlikely to die out until we do.

I was just done with my training as an altar-boy when some prankster went and turned the altar around, and we had to learn all new "dance steps." The first Mass I served was probably literally one of the first dozen Sunday Masses using the new configuration and the new missal. I do remember when the last vestige of Latin responses at Mass was "Et cum spiritu tuo." Then that was gone.

Of course all was not sweetness and light. Our generation of progressive bishops also were all-time champion failures in dealing with issues of sexual abuse by their brother priests. And many, way too many, of our spiritual mentors were living out their vows of chastity more in the breach. Not all were abusing minors. But too many were. Those of us who've been survivor's advocates have had more than our share of disappointment when we see old friends' names join the rogues' gallery at the Bishop Accountability web site database. Not to mention when we realize that, in retrospect, we too were at very least groomed for abuse. And we also see some of our mentors, so "right" in their spiritual and social justice thinking otherwise, unable to part ways with their fellow priests, brothers, and religious when it comes to taking ownership of the abuses by their fellows. From this, we learned a lot about their, and our, clericalism.

All of these things have led us to say "enough!" The orthodox movement that has gained momentum on the coat-tails of the abuse scandal is not legitimized by it!

Many of us are unclear at this point whether our lot is with an alternative Catholic movement or not. Maybe our course is towards something like Unitarian Universalism, where we're actually now seeing some Catholic sensibilities take root. They're the original Ecumenists. To the extent where they even tolerate Trinitarians.

At the end of the day, though, we're no longer ceding the fate of our souls to the likes of Burke, Vigneron, Chaput, Rigali, O'Malley, Finn, et. al. We see "Whatsoever you hold bound on earth..." as applying to what we hold bound on them as what they hold bound on us.

Now we just have to figure out what to do with our freedom.

I suspect the young people who were perhaps raised Catholic fall into two groups: those who would not be caught dead at a church reform gathering (maybe 10 percent), those who don't care (maybe 20 percent) and the rest who said to hell with it.

As a young Catholic, I find the so-called American Catholic Council as a very unfortunate event. Instead of actually being Catholic, it seems to try and create its own expression of Christianity, albeit a heretical one. Issues such as the ordination of women have already been decided upon by the Church, so people should stop trying to promote heresy. Thankfully, few people in the Church actually pay attention to such events, so it will only be remembered as a small gathering of dissenters as their movement died-off.

"Meanwhile, new communities grow and create what is essentially a small parallel church."
Like the Methodists or the Mormons. With all due respect, Sister, the groups you are talking about are, in the very truest meaning of the word, Protestants. You're Protestants: learn it, love it, live it.

The intentional communities of which you speak are NOT Catholic but merely dissidents playing church. If they are so unhappy with the Catholic Church then they need to leave and join the Protestants, if they'll have them.

What a wonderful commentary. I was there too, and you have captured it -- in substance, sentiment, and structure -- precisely.

Good report, Maureen! Although I am not optimistic, perhaps some of the better bishops and cardinals will at least pay some heed. These are hoofbeats and if you are in the Vatican or part of the lockstep hierarchy of the Church, you shouldn't need a hearing aid to understand that a message is on the way. I hope that there was some discussion at the conference about redirection of parishioner donations away from the Vatican and the bishops. If essentially all donations go to your pastor, you will empower him, he will have greater sway up the line. The only way to communicate is with your donations or the lack of them.

you are delusional

Yes, Maureen, the issues of women priests, gay equality, etc. have already been won in this spiritually evolving culture, a culture which the hierarchy has rejected in favor of a restorationist dreamworld. And, yes, the participants in Detroit were "gray," the Vatican II generation that still hopes to reform and re-spiritualize the Church per the promise of Vatican II, though most realize they may die before that ever happens.

There are many fundamentalist pre-Vatican II Catholics, themselves pretty "gray," who have posted on this website that they can't wait for such liberal Catholics to die off so they can again restore the Church to its pre-Vatican II glory when white European "Catholic culture" flourished in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the then backward parts of Europe (Ireland, Spain, Poland, Bavaria, Slovakia, Croatia, etc.) That culture, however, has disintegrated (though it has some remnants in the US such as the watchers of EWTN and the residents of Scranton and some Florida retirement communities).

Both sides, most of those who post on this website, are pretty gray, all "formed" as children in the pre-Vatican II culture. What is missing, with a few exceptions, are their children and grandchildren who have grown up in the new culture and could care less if 1950s-style "Catholic culture" survives or not. The post-Vatican II antagonists, who regularly fight on this website, have one big thing in common: they care deeply about the future of the Church.

The younger generations, as poll after poll has shown, do not. They are gone from the old Church culture and are generally unlikely to ever return -- as is the same in England, France, Germany and even Italy. Even Pope Benedict, other Vatican officials, and the US hierarchy, know this. Rome pins its hopes on the backward misogynist and homophobic cultures of Africa while the US hierarchy pins its hopes on Latinos who, in Latin America, were generally patriarchal (machismo), anti-gay, and uneducated kow-towers to authority. But to think such formerly culturally backward groups promise a Catholic renaissance is to live in a dreamworld. Not going to happen.

Like you, I believe the folks in Detroit, who love both the Church and modern culture, were the best hope for the Church's future. But it is clear per Archbishop Vigneron, that the Church has opted against them. Their views are not welcome and neither are they. Best guess: the Church, though it will survive by sheer institutional inertia for a very long time, is dead as the primary spiritual engine of the West and, therfore, of the globalized world. Pretty sad but what is.

There are numerous church reform groups that have come into existence since the repression of the spirit of Vatican II that began in the 70’s. In all that time, none of these groups has effected any real change in the role of Catholics in the institution, transparency of the hierarchy, accountability of church leadership, or the less than chaste and simple lifestyles of priests and church officials.

The reform groups still in existence today are essentially support groups – people who have gathered in response to injury. They have developed cottage industries of information exchange – conferences, speakers’ bureaus, newsletters, fundraising advertisements, national conventions, etc. These are worthwhile activities, but are only internally efficacious and operate primarily for the members’ mutual benefit. They have had no significant effect on actual institutional reform.

All of these activities have helped reform-minded Catholics personally as a subset group of the Roman Catholic Church, but they have not opened the priesthood to all who are called to serve. They have not made local bishops accountable to their people for ministerial project focus, general diocesan policies, or financial decisions. Their organizations have not stopped parishes from being closed. They have not slowed the attrition of straight priests leaving the corporate priesthood or the defection of cradle Catholics to other denominations. They were not able to detect, expose, or stop decades of systemic sexual abuse of our children. Some even denied the depth of this problem and told me and other supporters of the survivor’s movement in the mid 90’s to stand down because “the bishops are taking care of this problem.”

Church reform groups have essentially served the Vatican’s objectives well. These groups provide a place for Catholics to go when they figure out what is really going on in their institutional church. The Vatican knows this and is more than willing to let reform groups exist because they play a key role in its overall control strategy. Arch/bishops will even grant audiences to, and receive studies and position papers from well-meaning reform groups. The reform group members feel that they have achieved a great accomplishment in gaining an audience with the prelate. In reality, they have simply delivered him a detailed summary report of their activities. Pleasantries and mutual good wishes are usually exchanged between the bishop and his concerned guests in these rare meetings, but in the short and long run nothing changes. At the end of the meeting the reformers have been contained and led on by their own good intentions and the false hope and gratitude extended by their local arch/bishops.

Most Catholics who belong to reform groups usually continue to attend their local parish churches. Each Sunday they donate money to their local church, which is legally owned by the bishop or a corporation that the bishop controls. This system of episcopal ownership supports the Vatican’s agendas. There is an element of self-deception at play – the idea that “I am just going to support my local parish because we have a good thing here.” Unfortunately, that is part of the codependency that is required for being a good Vatican Catholic. You focus on your local parish, but your donated resources are immediately added to the bishop’s balance sheet and continue to support the same mindsets and special arrangements that enabled the sex abuse atrocity to take place and be covered up by a predominantly gay hierarchy for decades. Partaking in this donation and ownership arrangement makes the laity full enablers of the Vatican agenda.

The core disconnect is that people want spirituality from the hierarchy while the hierarchy understands itself as running a religious business first and foremost.

The above mentioned reflections on the ACC meeting bring some questions to my mind. I belong to the Post-Vatican II generation of young women theologians of colour in a developing country. It is difficult to see the difference between Pre and Post Vat II theologies . As far as I understand, Vat II tried to reduce the gap between clergy and laity , religious and laity - and it tried to flatten the hierarchical mountain , to bring the priesthood at the center rather than the top.The vision/mission of the ordained priesthood according to Vat II was at the service of animating the priesthood of the laity [all the non-ordained people of God ]--so that together the entire church could be at the service of the world. The purpose of the desire to flatten the pyramid was mainly for greater unity and harmony within the church.

From an Asian perspective , I do not see why instead of the gap between religious women and laity being reduced , in the struggle for Equality of Power/ Leadership by men and women in the church , most theologians [ both conservative or liberal and Pre or Post Vat II ] have succeeded in 'raising' women religious to stand next to the clergy on the PYRAMID OF POWER.

So the pyramidal structure is being encouraged in order to encourage women in general [?]in developed countries and women religious whose vocations continue to flourish in developing countries, at the expense of the vast majority of the remaining People of God. My observations show that the Main reason why religious life is flourishing in Asia is the ‘ high’ feeling experienced by religious women when they are put on the pedestal . I have seen exceptions in some congregations and individual religious. But the majority are motivated to religious life due to the attraction of security, comfort, education ,privileges, Power.

According to my personal experiences , the way power is being mis-used by religious women belonging to Institutes , makes me SICK . I hate the idea of such women religious becoming priests – inspite of the fact that I’m a woman who has been through a long long journey of liberation as a woman in Asian culture and society.

As a disciple of Christ, I do not see this theology of equality of power between men and women – moving in the right direction or in the spirit of the Gospel .

Even if I imagine women priests , maybe they would work in America in the right spirit, without hampering the vocation of the laity in general . But I have reasons to doubt this would be the case in other parts of the world which are simply not ready for such drastic reform in the Institutional church and may not survive such a crisis .[ Although I know the Holy Spirit holds surprizes ! ] .Hence I am personally not in favour of women’s ordained ministry in the Church at this time.

I think the urgent need of the church is Unity . No doubt theologians should reflect on reform but only the persons called to the service of Unity in the Catholic church may perhaps fully understand the burden of their calling which takes in the perspective of the entire universe with the diversities in the churches. Jesus Christ did explicitly desire this Unity !

Personally I think it is the right time to focus on reflections on married clergy which would itself take care of the pyramid.Then other reflections /reforms could follow if still inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I would like to read other perspectives to what I have narrated. Thank You !

Thanks so much for taking the time to provide us with your insights and impressions of this very important gathering. I found your observations to be very helpful.

"they believe that they have the power, along with the priest, to call for the presence of Christ"

They might believe many things (except the Faith) but my momma once taught me "wishin' don't make it so....."

Frankly, when I consider the thousands of martyrs who for 60 years behind the Iron Curtain put their lives on the line to find an underground priest to celebrate Mass for them, and then to dismiss that heroism in the name of smug and comfortable middle-class folks (as Fiedler herself admits) who must struggle with the "oppression" of being in Detroit for a weekend, sorry, I have utterly no sympathy. No matter what they think they can consecrate.

The "greying" of the crowd says something. I am reminded of what Msgr. Ronald Knox said about the distinction between zeal and enthusiasm. These groups and their agenda will not last.

The Roman Catholic Church will begin to change only when Catholics again elect their priests and bishops.

. . . and a return to the lay trustee system: the way the American Catholic Church was organized in the 1800′s.

Until then, if you don’t expect much, you won’t be disappointed.

http://xcatholic.yuku.com/topic/2538/The-election-of-bishops-by-the-cler...

http://xcatholic.yuku.com/topic/2534/Lay-Trustees

After all these negative comments, it is now time for you to explain why you remain in a church you hate. Is it the free health care you will need at some point or is it the stipend you receive from your community? There has be cogent reasons why you have not left the church years ago?

Significant movements important for the future of society and the church always comes from the margins and not down the main aisle, and that is what this and other reforms movements are all about. You are present day "Rosa Parks" who refuse to sit in the back of the bus and will later be praised for your courage. The main aisle of the Church has seldom led the way where reform was emerging, such as the abolition of slavery, women's suffrage and civil rights for minorities. In fact, the main aisle often criticized and hindered these reform movements and the same is happening today, i.e., equal rights for gay and lesbian people. Women Suffrage still has not made it down the main aisle of the Church. It is easy to jump on the bandwagon after others have paid the price in forcing reform, which is normally what the main aisle does. It has consistently failed to provide leadership when it entailed crucifixion. Indeed, I doubt Christ would recognize the main aisle of the Church.

This whole thing is very disturbing to me.

This call for equality, as if authentic woman has something to do without being EQUAL to men rather then being the fulfilling opposite. This arrogance that dares say that God needs the help of those who the Church deems to be heretics to reform HIS Church. This brashness and crass posturing to juxtapose this 'reform' agenda against the movement of the Catholic Church; it begs the question as to why these people who even stay in a Church that is moving in the opposite direction.

I hate that there are Catholic who reject the counter cultural Church of Christ. They want us to be just like the protestants and appear no different than the world. They don't want us to be a set apart and holy people. It is demonic. And inasmuch their intentions may be well meaning - the road to Hell is paved with our own intentions and ambitions.

Ms. Maureen,

While writing this article, have you thought that the center of the Universe is not the USA? I am a Catholic from the Asia (where Judaism, Christianity and Islam began), and I am now working in the Middle East, having direct contact with the people here. Now I understand why I am a Catholic.

In my simple understanding of myself as a CATHOLIC, a Catholic is a CATHOLIC, not liberal, not traditional (as you Americans love to define people by categories-- between Black Americans, Arab-Americans, Chinese Americans etc etc... why can't you not just say "They are AMERICANS"!)

Your views hurt millions if not billions of Catholics outside the USA. If you wish to make your own brand of Christianity, please do it but please DO NOT USE the CATHOLIC CHURCH when all you say is simply DISSENTFUL.

God bless the Catholic Church and may God bless the Pope and the Bishops, Priests and Religious who are still humbly obedient to the Vicar of Christ, the Successor of Peter on earth.

Being 42, I am deeply saddened by the presumptuousness of this gathering. Can you really not see the pride? Excommunication exists specifically for such situations. I expect a very clear response from the American Bishops. If you do not care if you are excommunicated, then what are you trying to accomplish? It sure appears that presumptuous pride has caused this group to deny reason and to delussionally turn themselves into martyrs. You are wrong. Truth is objective. Two plus two equals four. If you say it equals five, it is not intolerant for others to tell you that you are mistaken. Please pray for humility. If you truly love the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church, you will cease your heretical attempts at subversion. If you do not, you will no longer be a part of the Church. I will pray for your soul. And just so you understand, the church may not be the way I would prefer it. There are several sins that my fallen nature would love for the Church to condone. However, I recognize the Church and Truth and Christ, and I humbly submitt and go to Confession. This you cannot change. This is the next generation of Catholics in America. Go to the March for Life and see it for yourself.

There is a Donatist spirit in the many posters who practically demand that anyone who does not parrot every word from the Vatican leave...NOW! It's popped its ugly, judgmental head up during many eras of Church history. The Albigensians, Jansenists, etc. In the name of their supposed "purity," they would have everyone out...with a zeal that is fascist in nature (excommunications hurled everywhere; interdicts; heresies...).

Truth is one, but our ability to see Truth is contingent and provisional, at best.

I have been a high school theology teacher for over twenty years and can attest that young Catholics generally: 1) are sick of intra-ecclesial battles--progressive or traditional. Let's get on with bringing Christ'a love to the world. Interestingly, that's the central call of Vatican II, missio ad gentes. 2) leave much more often than join traditional religious communities. Some do become very orthodox, but most simply see no reason for belonging to a Church, and 3) gay rights/marriage are completely a non-issue. For those who say that the Church has a "compassionate" response to homosexuals, let me assure you young people do not see it that way. I gave them the Catechism's teaching on homosexuality and the USCCB's statement on same-sex marriage. Then, I told them to compose a letter to their own (hypothetical) child who had just "come out." They could not do it. They said, "I could never say this stuff to my kid. Never!"