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PDF versionReductio ad KKK
by Heidi Schlumpf on Dec. 31, 2011
In teaching logical fallacies as part of persuasion and public speaking courses, I sometimes refer to a half-serious one called "Reductio ad Hitlerum," or "playing the Hitler card."
Debaters who use this fallacy attempt to "prove" that something is undesirable or evil by pointing out that Adolf Hitler or the Third Reich advocated or implemented a similar thing. It can be a fallacy because, of course, Hitler advocated some positive things, like classical music, for example.
Playing the Hitler card tends to derail any argument or conversation, because it--not surprisingly--angers the other side to be compared to a man generally considered to have been evil incarnate. Thus, its use is considered lazy, at best, if not always fallacious.
(There is also the--again half serious--Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies that states that all online discussions eventually degenerate to the point where someone compares another's beliefs to Hitler's.)
I was reminded of this as I've observed the recent debacle about Cardinal Francis George's comments comparing some in the GLBT rights movement to the Ku Klux Klan.
Was the KKK anti-Catholic? Yes, that's a historical fact. Is it possible that some LGBT are what might be described as "anti-Catholic"? Possibly, though some might argue such "anti-Catholicism" is understandable, given the church's position on LGBT rights and the money and energy it spends fighting any expansion of those rights.
Even if Cardinal George's comparison is technically "correct," that doesn't make it appropriate, not to mention PR-savvy. Why he chose it--and continues to defend it--is beyond me.
It seems to me that the Klan is almost as explosive a comparison as Hitler, and thus should be avoided in serious argument, especially those about sensitive issues.
**Another new angle to this story: Some alumni of St. Norbert College in DePere, Wisconsin, who are angered about George's comments think it is inappropriate for him to be the commencement speaker at this year's graduation. See video here.
Bravo NCR! Bravo Ms. Sclumpf!
Bravo NCR!
Bravo Ms. Sclumpf!
Your charism in awakening of thousands of GLBT NCR readers and staff contexturalizes your deconstructing George's homophobic and partiarchal heirarcy and its methodology through temporary reflectivness.
We envison the erotic inclusiveness of all the community with a liberative self awareness of youth.
Our organity polity will than embrace a courageus engendering of the penultimate paradigm. We will intersectionaize it by the empowerment of the most personal and intimate modalities.
Let us join the NCR in embracing the unlimited inclusiveness!
"Thus, its use is considered
"Thus, its use is considered lazy, at best, if not always fallacious." Duh! Its use is perverse! I could not agree more with the St. Norbert alumni.
I haven't researched it, but
I haven't researched it, but I have a hunch the KKK was / (is) as anti-GLBT and as supportive of the narrow definition of marriage as Hitler or George, each to the power of their means to enforce their will on others.
have we had a Krystal Nacht
have we had a Krystal Nacht around our stained glassed windows in Chicago yet?
I thought the anglo American Cardinals too busy with their Johnson book burnings this year for this nonsense . . .
Again we have the left making
Again we have the left making rules the intend to force upon the right, but have no intention of following themselves. How many times was the Tea Party compared to the KKK? Did NCR ever take issue with it?
I do not mean to sound
I do not mean to sound uncharitable, but just as the church prays for the "intrinsically disordered," the church should also pray for the "pastorally disordered."
Paz y Bien, Rolando, SFO.
My own take on the cardinal's
My own take on the cardinal's foot-in-the-mouth is that it reflects his personal inability to outgrow his own homophobia and to join society's growing acceptance of homosexuality. He's like a redneck in the deep south, and KKK sympathizer, who misses the Jim Crow days.
Indefensible acceptance of
Indefensible acceptance of homosexuality is something to be actively fought,and the Cardinal should be applauded for his denunciation of this poisonous trend in society,which must never be allowed to stand.
Louis do you really believe
Louis do you really believe your statement is one which our Lord would utter? If you do, what kind of God have you created? Consider for a moment your anger and hostility towards the LGBT community is more a reflection of your attitude than that of Christ!
He was probably talking about
He was probably talking about when the KKK marched through Cicero, Illionois years ago--and he was probably correct. Why does everyone on these pages choose anti-church over church?
One can be "technically
One can be "technically conrrect" and, at the same time, be, not only disrespectful and unchristian, but shockingly dishonest.
Maybe some very wealthy donor
Maybe some very wealthy donor told Cardinal George that he wasn't bashing gays enough? I have come to the cynical, but not unfounded, conclusion that most of what public figures say is motivated by the desire to raise money. The fact that George made this statement on Fox "News" tells me he was speaking to his intended audience.
in a sound bite world george
in a sound bite world george shows himself sharp .
as is the case with most adult catholics I would like to see more imaginative language used about homosexually oriented people . certainly civil unions have strong grounding in justice. people who form household together have a right to visit one another in the hospital and a great number of other things.
the battle for gay marriage was lost by the church not won by the gays . for almost two decades marriage has been presented as a life enhancement choice . just run a check through your memory bank of homilies heard at catholic weddings.
the last place one would hear of marriage as an institution with intimate links to church and society is in a catholic church . the intrinsic openness to children for church and society's future rarely is mentioned . neither will we hear much in church of the burdens and pains involved in placing the spouse ahead of all else , if need be.
the church failed to teach marriage and deserves much of the blame for society 's forgetfulness . in 15 years at most gay marriage will be the law of just about all the land. hardly anyone under 40 and most of us over see it as mean spirited for the church to fight to deny a life enhancing opportunity to homosexually oriented people.
the church might think about how it will provide resources to couples wishing to give themselves to each other in christian marriage . it is just unhealthy for us to waste resources on a mess we made while not bothering to restore the sacramentality of marriage in our churches and schools.
on the other hand there clearly is among enough gays a strong anti catholic animus . this is expressed publicly in many venues . the language is hateful , protected correctly by law , and in need of being called out .
the expression of this hate is close enough to the practice of the kkk to be useful in what is a propaganda war in an age of sound bites .
being sympathetic and largely supportive of the efforts of homosexually oriented people does not mean that we should permit ourselves to be abused by their hot heads .
good for george
Put yourself of the receiving
Put yourself of the receiving end of the constant "Catholic" negativity about LGBT people for as long as I have (71 years now) and then complain to me about LGBT "anti-Catholicism!"
Shame on you and your nonsensical statement.
You just expressed my
You just expressed my thoughts. I think that it is almost a miracle that any one of the LGBT people still wants to be a Catholic. Miracles happen, though: I'm thinking about the Jews converted by force that remained Catholics, after centuries of hate, pogroms and all kind of killings and persecution. Of course they were just a few - those who were not killed or did not run away to another country. In the LGBT people case, they haven't even the support of his faith or the chance to run to a more tolerant environement, thus not speaking of a promised land. This Ordinariate case is shameful, and not working at all in England. If I was not so irreversibly Catholic, I would rather have as my guide the Archbishop of Canterbury. When he speaks, is not about anathemas of any kind. He's just one of the most inspiring religious leaders of our times, together with the Dalai Lama. We need urgently a practice of inclusion and love, based in Jesus's message. And only people who have suffered in their skin exclusion and hate know how much it is needed. Sadly, we are going through very hard times, at all levels. The Church pretends to be a safe port, in the biggest civilizational crisis in history, for those who are getting seasick, but even safe ports can be destroyed by mighty tempests. I'm afraid that one is gathering right now. And it saddens me that so few understand that flexibility and dialogue are the only way out. That's the lesson of the mighty willow and the humble bamboo: when the real strong wings come, one breaks while the other just wavers. I'm so very tired of so much hate and such an autoritharian mindset. I keep praying: Come, please COME, Holy Spirit!
Dear Outsider, I share your
Dear Outsider,
I share your sadness and dismay over the Church's posture and position about a great many topics in our society but the treatment of LGBT individuals is especially appalling...imagine the Church calling someone "intrinsically disordered" and then shocked to learn that those in the LGBT community feel wounded and disenfranchised by such rhetoric....they don't get it do they? 'You're sick, you're unnatural, you're abnormal and you're not one of us, BUT we still love you'. The Church and its leadership see themselves as being truthful and honest, but honesty without kindness is still cruelty! Regrettably, there are some very frightened people in the Church who might spot the Holy Spirit and would shoot it on first sight, claiming it was "duck season".
The uncomfortable FACT that
The uncomfortable FACT that homo- and trans-sexuality ARE disorders may annoy those desperate to deny it,but constant,unrelenting pressure until they admit it is in their best interests.If you love them,you MUST continue to pressure them,not take the easy path of telling them the lies they want to hear instead of the truth they need to.The honesty is a kindness,even if those wanting only to close their eyes to the truth see it as cruelty.
Louis, your comments have
Louis, your comments have traditionally been very hostile and condemnatory towards the LGBT community....one emotion ALWAYS precedes anger, it's called FEAR....Louis what are you afraid of? it's called homophobia! As Shakespeare has said, "me thinks you doth protest too much"
Nonsensical statements
Nonsensical statements include all attempts to excuse "LGBT people" for refusing to dismiss their homo- or trans-sexual impulses as something unfit to define themselves by or allow to influence their behavior.
You can try to sell LGBT
You can try to sell LGBT "rights" all you want, but every Christian who has not sold his soul will know you're bending the truth. Cardinal George is representing two thousand years of scripture and tradition. You're trying to sell 20 years of political correctness.
Don't forget 2,000 years of
Don't forget 2,000 years of bigotry, as well.
Or, as Mark Twain put it: First, get the facts. Then you can distort them at your leisure.
No bigotry
No bigotry involved...standards of conduct apply equally to everyone,even those who define themselves by desire to violate the standards.
I'm not certain you saw this,
I'm not certain you saw this, but Cardinal George apologized for his comments about the LGBT community and comparing them to the KKK....hopefully, like him you might consider that your thoughts and words are equally hurtful and divisive. These are not comments our Lord would make Louis, that's bottom line! How do we know who is Christian, by their love Louis, by their love....not, I repeat not, but their critical comments of another....we're all sinners and none of us needs to be beaten to death with it! Jesus called the heavily burdened, weak, the sinner and the wounded to come to Him not by denouncing them but by embracing them...telling them they are "intrinsically disordered" was not then or now a part of His message
Here's a novel thought, What
Here's a novel thought, What would Jesus have said or done? If you think for a minute he would have compared the two, the KKK and LGBT, then sadly, you don't know scripture....he condemned the self-righteous for whom He reserved His most strident comments, NOT the outcasts or "modern day lepers"....it's not a question of political correctness, it's a question of seeing someone as yourself, made in the image and likeness of God....if you can't see that then you missed the message!
"LGBT" self-righteousness
"LGBT" self-righteousness puts that of most Bible-thumpers to shame!
There are a lot of logical
There are a lot of logical (sounding) fallacies floating about within the multi-faceted culture wars. They are political trump cards which are designed to shut-down any serious conversation and problem-solving in our pluralistic, non-theocratic society — their inflammatory nature is intended to intimidate and silence anyone with an opposing view.
.
I prefer to assume that these cards are played in most cases as a matter of ignorance rather than intentional malice... but in our current political environment, ya never know for sure. In the case of Cardinal George, it's difficult to assume ignorance.
.
What we are seeing, IMHO, is
What we are seeing, IMHO, is the battle royal to end the hate by the catholic church towards gays, just as it in the past hated Jews - because they wouldnt convert - even on pain of death - in the middle ages.
The church is all but dead in W. Europe as people see through its lies and hypocrisy. Virtually every nation in Western Europe except italy and greece have CUs or marriage equality for gays. And England , Finland, Denmark and Ireland are moving very close to changing from CUs to marriage.
While in very Catholic Latin America, Argentina, Columbia (common law) and Mexico have marriage Equality Equador, Uruguay and Brazil have CUs with Chile debating that issue. And about 15 10-12 others.
the church can best be described as fighting its battle of the bulge. Instead of going modern, it sinks back to a level of what might be considered depravity. Not just the KKK thing, but calling gays "intriniscally evil, Intrinsically disordered and not normal."
Helping to poison our society and driving an estimated 2000 gay kids to suicide every year. Like a repeating 9-11 of gay children.
But I want to thank the Pope for what he is doing. Every day thousands are leaving the church. the church also known as that of the endless hidden molestation of children.
Maybe Pope Benedict is just what God ordered - he will tear apart the church, and perhaps eventually, in centuries it will reform.
While our gay and lesbian neighbors and friends get treated equally in our secular society.
Wrongdoing is not a civil
Wrongdoing is not a civil right,and the "gay" define themselves by desire to engage in it.No "equality" between right and wrong can be permitted...but treating people as capable of rising above their disordered desires is not "hate".Treating them as incapable of resisting those tendencies,as entitled to define themselves by those tendencies,IS.
Good for St. Norbert's!
Good for St. Norbert's!
Comparing gay activists to
Comparing gay activists to the KKK is slander. The KKK terrorized blacks in the South and elsewhere for decades, and yes, they were/are anti-Catholic, but given the level of hate and violence, the comparison to activist gays is not only incorrect, but an outrage.
The Cardinal is against gay marriage. Does he also think it is acceptable to discriminate against gays in housing, employment, etc? Does he think it is OK for bullies and thugs to beat up gays in schools?
So Cardinal George thinks he speaks for Jesus? I think not.
The analogy breaks down
The analogy breaks down considering that Hitler killed homosexuals and did not believe in individual rights. Also, as far as I know, no one has lynched anyone from the anti-gay marriage side nor planted a rainbow flag on their lawn.
Does anybody understand what
Does anybody understand what Heidi Schlumpf is talking about? Is Heidi saying Bishop George's comparison to the KKK is a false argument because there is some good in it? I must be having a bad day!
Andrew K
Fox News fundamentalists
Fox News fundamentalists preferr, aparently, Hitler& Stalin. So, I think KKK is quite an inovation. If you want to learn really something about Catholic Fundamentalists, not the KKK's ones, you will find an interesting site: www.catholicfundamentalism.com/
The only problem: after going there, you'll feel so spiritually dirty that you'll need to pinch yourself to know if your eyes are not cheating you and are not an instrument of the "evil one".
Heidi, thank you for a
Heidi, thank you for a marvelously reasoned piece. I hope you opened a few eyes, minds and hearts with it.
Cardinal George has shot
Cardinal George has shot himself in the foot so many times over the years this latest incident only shows how narrow minded and out of touch he is with the people in the Archdiocese of Chicago.
The Cardinal is a theological geek. He gets lost in his own world, or more to point is unable to communicate on the level of persuasion so he resorts to fiat. I say it therefore it is true.
His form of Pretzel Theology is being dismissed as both out of touch, and unreasonable.
Sadly, the present system the Church is governed by only promotes such individuals. It would not surprise me if he got promoted to a office in the Vatican so he can join Cardinal Law.
Area pastors in chicago are individually writing letters to the Cardinal expressing their dismay over his comments. Even the Archdiocesan Gay and Lesbian Outreach Ministry Board of Directors have expressed their frustration and anger and may issue a statement after their next board meeting.
Dignity has condemned his words as had the Rainbow Sash Movement. The Gay Catholic Community appears to be coming of age. Perhaps we should thank the Cardinal for what he has done in generating cooperation between these Catholic Gay Organizations.
Joe Murray
Rainbow Sash Movement
If "gay organizations" are
If "gay organizations" are against him he must be doing something right.(Unlike anyone who is engaging in same-sex sexual activity).
It is sad see and hear that
It is sad see and hear that Cardinal George and his leaders, judging others as if they was saint themselves.
Unfortunately, him and his leaders are trying to bring back the inquisition, which was responsible for the deaths and destruction of millions lives.
I believe that they are trying and succeeding, to turn the worlds attention away from their pedophilia scandals.
PS: If I was gay, I would be proud to be associated to a group of people who are non-violent, non-judgmental, creative, god loving people than being a Catholic Priest and/or leader.
Just when you least expect
Just when you least expect it:
http://news.yahoo.com/judge-black-church-rightful-owner-kkk-store-174103...
And who says even God doesn't enjoy the occasional cosmic joke?
Memo to New Beginnings Baptist:
Take every dime!
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