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PDF versionMother Millea's Attempt to Make the Best of It
by Ken Briggs on Feb. 19, 2010
Back to the visitation.
I'm sure Mother Millea is a charming and cultured woman though I've never met her.
Her political skills may be somewhat lacking, however. In the fresh interview with John Allen, she tries valiantly to attain credibility for the Vatican's inexorable march toward a pre-destined ending, but her attempt falls short.
Mother Millea is, unfortunately, in an untenable position, fronting for the Vatican's desire to push back renewal while reflecting a genuine affection for all American sisters including those whose lifestyles and beliefs may violate her own sense of tradition.
I feel a certain sympathy for her as she slogs her way through a process that has raised tension and conflict and fostered disarray. She soldiers on, in keeping with her commitment, in spite of signs of non-compliance and open opposition.
As she lays out the next phase, the close scrutiny of a select number of communities, she does her job by trying once again to assuage fears and convince wary sisters that the operation will not only be pain free but rewarding.
In the interview, she talks about how communities were chosen for a closer look and reject any suggestions that some might have been targeted for being either rebellious or unconventional. It's all on the up-and-up she says and nobody needs to fret.
Mother Millea almost makes it sound as if the lucky few communities are about to get a call from the Welcome Wagon made up of cheerful agents more like singing nuns than strict superiors. It'll be more like a carefree summer picnic. All they really want to do, she says, is to gather the inspiring stories of the exemplary sisters who live there.
What could be wrong with that?
Perhaps the protests against the investigation have actually shifted the procedure from a hard-nosed probe to an Oprah Winfrey exchange. In any case, stories of sisters' dedication and selfless ministry do deserve to be told.
The problem is that for all the value of the stories, they won't substitute for a candid discussion of the policies and theology that have caused this rift. Without exposing and debating those issues, the huge gulf between Rome and the majority of progressive sisters remains wide and deep.
But to lament that means to care whether the gulf can be bridged. At the start of this process, Cardinal Rode showed no inclination to want to mend fences with American progressives. He is looking for a way to stop what he sees as the excesses of Vatican II incentives. More recently he has decried the alleged worldliness of the progressive side. No interest whatever in seeing what their theology might have to offer, for that would be to grant it legitimacy.
Mother Millea said Rode would receive the stories and all the reports. But isn't Rode's mind already made up, as his recent lightning bolts have shown? She shouldn't be put on this spot, though she chose to be on this spot. She had to toe the party line by being non-committal?
Is this any way to run a universal church?
As for Rode, the Salesians
As for Rode, the Salesians never were noted for exceptional theological study, formation, insight and acumen. Just smoke and mirrors and pretty robes and capes and let's go work with the orphaned and abandoned boys.
As for the rest here, Mr. Briggs once again brings a keen and balanced outsiders eye to the very complex situation and makes it intelligible for us here within the family.
Read his Double Crossed and see what I mean. Then let me borrow your copy. It is available at
http://www.amazon.com/Double-Crossed-Uncovering-Catholic-Betrayal/dp/038...
He is truly the one to run, and to do, this national visitation, his approach carrying far more of the Holy Spirit of the Annunciation than the Holy Inquisition of Toledo.
His imagery here is exact throughout, mixing metaphors wildly yet accurately, in particular this military image: "(Millea) soldiers on, . . ."
In her recent revealing interview with the talented Mr. Allen, in fact, she pretty much claims the old military excuse that she's just following orders and has no idea of the horrors her superior officers prepare.
Didn't work in Nuremberg and nobody's buying it now.
Wow, Frere, what an insulting
Wow, Frere, what an insulting statement about the Salesians. I thought you were all in favor of charitable service to those who are poor and in need, such as orphaned and abandoned boys. I know that you have criticized others when they refused to use the appropriate title for a particular ecclesial personage, such as CARDINAL Rode or MOTHER Millea. I suppose that your support for those who work with the poor and the abandoned only applies to those who agree with you. I suppose that your use of proper ecclesial titles only applies to those who agree with you.
As to your assertions regarding Mr. Briggs. He does not take a balanced view of the visitation, but rather takes a highly critical one, claiming that the outcome is "pre-determined". That is not balanced, it is, in fact, the opposite of balanced. It is biased and posits claims that the Holy See is going through the motions and has already reached its conclusions; claims that are without merit and without any proof and evidence (which you always insist must be present in such claims!).
Finally, I personally find your comparison of Mother Millea and the Nazi war criminals tried at Nuremburg, and your implicit comparison of Cardinal Rode and the Holy See to the Nazi leadership to be reprehensible in every way, the very height of ad hominum attacks that you supposedly oppose and detest. I suspect that your comparison will strike most reasonable Catholics as equally disgusting and indefensible.
If this is truly how you feel about the Church, that those who work with poor and abandoned boys are people who use "smoke and mirrors"; that a dedicated woman religious charged with a difficult and thankless task is undeserving of the respect of proper address; that a cardinal of the Church is also undeserving of such address; that the Holy See is simply lying about this Visitation; and that that same dedicated woman religious is the same kind of person as Rudolf Hess and Herman Goring, one wonders why you bother to stay.
Clint, you cannot deny
Clint, you cannot deny history. The truth of Frere Charles' comments could only be denied by a holocaust denier, someone insanely naive, an illiterate, or a Cardinal. "No one is so blind as one who will NOT see." You poor soul, may God bless you with a fanatical charge of positive energy!
Before he put me firmly and
Before he put me firmly and gratefully fast asleep on this beautiful Feast of the Chair of Saint Peter (or however you say it in English), so welcomed in the Abbey of Saint Peter in Solesmes while I lived there some 35 years ago (oh, am I putting you to sleep yet?) I noticed these passing phonemes: "the Salesians. I thought you were all in favor of charitable service to those who are poor and in need, such as orphaned and abandoned boys."
If only the Salesians held similar charitable service for our orphaned and abandoned congregations of religious women, rather than inquisitions, for our elderly nuns in the frozen unheated and unfed convents.
Why the disproportionate number of Salesians now in positions of power in Rome. They really are not noted academics, administrators nor theologians.
And why Rode's malevolence towards our religious women? Getting his untrained earful from radical right wing propagandists, like yourself, at Stonehill?
hey
just wondering, dude!
frère charles du désert OSB OBLAT (Congrégation de Subiaco)
Happy Feast of the Chair of Saint Peter!
ubi petrus ibi ecclesia
Easy Clint, remember where
Easy Clint, remember where you're posting.
This shouldn't surprise you, honestly. The general rule here seems to be that it doesn't matter what kind of good you attempt to do for the poor and needy. What matters is what kind of politics you support while you do it.
You're right, Pete. It is
You're right, Pete. It is Liberalism 101: no matter what good a person does, all that matters is politics.
This is so funny. I can't
This is so funny. I can't even tell you the number of times on the cafe that the opposite was stated by the one stalwart neo-trad on there. He said we were all such good people doing such good things, but we just didn't get the formal, neo-trad stuff, which nearly always had to do with being a republican. To him the goodness we were or the goodness we did was secondary to formalities in devotional practices and his ideas of obedience. Very funny you are!
Mother Clare is much smarter
Mother Clare is much smarter than Mr. Briggs suggests. She is firmly on the side of the Church on this issue, and she leaves some rather obvious hints as to what the future of these rebellious communities are going to become: non-canonical institutes that will no longer be considered Catholic. They will last for maybe another 20-25 years and then die like dead leaves from fallen branches of a tree, having no foundation, no roots, no nothing. I just hope they realize the financial and spiritual disasters they will be creating for themselves.
Why is it that a non-Catholic
Why is it that a non-Catholic like Mr. Briggs has long shown far greater compassion, understanding, wisdom and mercy for our beloved good Sisters than this TNCath(olic?) who wishes they just all die cold and alone, outcast like Lazarus at the gate?
Is he indeed and in fact the better Christian?
Which loves more truly and deeply our Holy Mother Church?
hey!
just asking!
frère charles du désert OSB OBLAT (Congrégation de Subiaco)
I NEVER said I wished they
I NEVER said I wished they would "just all die cold and alone, outcast like Lazarus at the gate." Far from it. I said that those religious who CHOOSE to separate themselves from the Church by becoming non-canonical institutions. I have much compassion, understanding, wisdom, and mercy for those retired sisters in motherhouses and nursing homes who suffer in silence at the direction their communities have taken the last 40 years. For those who are the masterminds behind the dissent and want a form of religious life outside the Church, I respectfully suggest they leave their communities, get real jobs, and work for an honest living.
Mr. Briggs submits that Cardinal Rode' has already made his mind up about women religious in the United States. Well, of course he has! If he hadn't recognized that religious life in the United States was a mess, he wouldn't have initiated the Apostolic Visitation.
Finally, to Frere Charles, I read your postings with great amusement. Your formal use of ecclesiastical titles to those with whom you agree ("The Reverend Father Richard McBrien" et al) and your use of only last names with thse for whom you have disdain ("Ratzinger," "Millea," "Rose," et al), your silly, sanctimonious, and flowery writing style, and your consistent bashing of the Church, only makes your positions weaker than they already are. If you hate the institutional Church so much, why do you even bother?
Maybe he can separate the
Maybe he can separate the very distinct idea of Institutional Church from the Way taught by Jesus.
TNCath and others are quick
TNCath and others are quick to critize those who criticize the Church. Yet as a parent I know the absolute need to criticize children to bring them up properly. The same applies to the Church. There is much wrong with the way it 'rules' today and if it is not criticized, it will condemn itself in its own hubris and, eventually, happenings such as the sex scandal or worse will be repeated. I'd much prefer unjustified criticism to blind obedience and acceptance of the sexism and prejudice against the laity that we find pandemic in today's Church.
What does this mean to
What does this mean to you?
"and then die like dead leaves from fallen branches of a tree"
Not exactly wishing our holy religious women a nice day . . .
I'm not wishing or hoping for
I'm not wishing or hoping for their deaths. Rather, I am hoping and praying they will reform their religious lives and thrive.
By the way, I was not the one who originated the idea that those who are not faithful religious would "die like leaves on the trees." That originated from St. John Baptist De LaSalle, the founder of the Brothers of the Christian Schools (F.S.C.).
De La Salle goes on to say, in a meditation for the Feast of the Chair of St. Peter:
"The Pope, being the Vicar of Jesus Christ, the visible head of the Church, and the successor of Saint Peter, has wide authority over the entire Church. All the faithful who are members ought to regard him as their father and as the voice God uses to give his orders to them. He possesses the universal power of binding and loosing that Jesus Christ gave to Saint Peter; to him Jesus Christ has committed the responsibility first given to this holy Apostle of feeding his flock. Your role, then, is to work to increase and to take care of this sheepfold; therefore, you must honor our Holy Father, the Pope, as the holy shepherd of this flock and the High Priest of the Church. You must respect his every word. It ought to be enough that something comes from him for you to be infinitely attentive. Is this how you have acted up to the present? Adore God’s authority in this sovereign Shepherd of souls, and in the future, look upon him as the great teacher of the Church.
"The bishops have been established by God to be the defenders of the Church. They are also, says Saint Paul, the first ministers of Jesus Christ and the dispensers of the mysteries of God.
"You must, therefore, honor them, respect their words, and be submissive to them in everything that concerns the care of the souls that have been entrusted to you. Because bishops have been appointed by God to watch over the doctrine and the morals of those who labor under their ministry and are in charge of the entire spiritual guidance of their diocese, all those who are employed in this labor to procure the salvation of souls must do so only in dependence on them. By this means they will draw down upon themselves and on their work the blessings of God. Acknowledge that God established
this hierarchy, and submit to it."
Food for thought, Frere!
Tn writes "... I have much
Tn writes "... I have much compassion, understanding, wisdom, and mercy for those retired sisters in motherhouses and nursing homes who suffer in silence at the direction their communities have taken the last 40 years. For those who are the masterminds behind the dissent and want a form of religious life outside the Church ..."
__________________________________
TN you have it backwards. The masterminds behind the changes in religious communities over the last 40 years were Pope John the XXIII and the clerics of Vatican Council II. Deal with it. Josef Ratzinger was part of it.
Like it or not the rebellious, disobedient, dissenters are ALL those who take your position Tn.
TN does not speak with eyes
TN does not speak with eyes of faith but rather the blindness of a Pharisee.
If and when the Sisters die TN we the People of God know it will be on the cross of Jesus. We have walked with them and and we will journey with them thru eventide. Throughout our lives we have recognized them over and over in the breaking of bread. The Sisters are indeed an Easter people. We who love them know the passion and death blows they have received through the unwarrented acts of ungratful abusive churchmen. No doubt their Crucifixion has been ongoing and maybe this Good Friday we will contemplate the beginnig days that lead us all from death to life!
It is some of the heirarchy
It is some of the heirarchy that is not Catholic Tn. They have been rebelling against Jesus for a long time. They do not speak for Roman Catholics because their manner of conducting church business is a scandal. They lead us in wrong paths. They clearly abuse an authority that is no longer legitimate. These prelates don't represent the goodness or Godness of Jesus Christ. They represent the corruption of a jeweled corpse. Their maggots are showing Tn ... the maggots of worldly power, riches and misogynist driven domination of women.
TNCatholic, "firmly on the
TNCatholic, "firmly on the side of the Church" should have been "firmly on the side of the hierarchy"! Those are two different and opposite entities. Now, we understand what Jesus was prophesying when he warned us about "false teachers and leaders". There is NO way that someone who defends and harbors sexual abusers of children will EVER BE a leader of my faith! The outrage of Jesus is furious with these people who dare to call themselves "Bishops, Cardinals and Pope". The truth is so obvious here! Open your eyes and mind! Don't allow yourself to be a scandal to Jesus by trying to defend these wolves!
TNCath, I think it is time
TNCath, I think it is time you listened to the chronic comments regarding your response to people and situations. You can try to go very literal and say "I never said that" over and over, but the smurking is still right there for anyone to read, and you want them to, so why not opt for a bit of honest self-reflectiveness over your attitude and behavior?
I am deeply offended by those
I am deeply offended by those who claim to be Catholic who dare publicly criticize the Holy Father and the Church. The "chronic comments" by those on this blog clearly favor those who do. No one on this blog is an any position of legitimate authority to do so, nor, as a Catholic has the right to publicly do so. As Archbishop Charles Chaput says, “If you're Catholic and you disagree with your Church. What do you do? You change your mind." I think it's high time all of us reflect upon those words of wisdom.
And while you are being
And while you are being "deeply offended," let me ask what you are doing on here? So perhaps not so "deeply offended" as engaged with the project of enjoying an aggressive defense?
It is a bit difficult to figure out why anyone would spend time talking with other people (why blog?) if it is only to try to be "more Catholic than the Pope." It's actually not necessary to take that particular (and usually self-righteous) perspective to be "claiming" to be Catholic. The rest of it mostly boils down to judgment of others. You are not in 'any position of legitimate authority' to do that, and the Church, looking at actual numbers of Catholics versus excommunications extremely rarely does that.
People are Catholic because they were baptized CAtholic--this is not difficult stuff. The idea that CAtholics can't disagree with the Church is untrue and certainly counter-productive for a Church that claims truth and the ability to rationally talk about truth. All discussions about truth have to do with interpretations and representations of meaning--called words--which are even more difficult as different languages come into the picture (see universal church). It's not simple. It's certainly not about changing my mind to look--God forbid--like Archbishop Chaput's. I get to be a real person talking about real things. And if you don't like it, you get to lump it. Or talk about it. But get over the idea that people can't have opinions. Catholics have had opinions and thoughts and disagreements since the beginning. Jesus wants us in the process of talking and learning and maturing, not marching in lockstep thought.
"The problem is that for all
"The problem is that for all the value of the stories, they won't substitute for a candid discussion of the policies and theology that have caused this rift. Without exposing and debating those issues, the huge gulf between Rome and the majority of progressive sisters remains wide and deep."
But then again, it is the progressives who refuse to enter into such a debate by refusing to engage. The hissy fit has been going for so long that it has become a reality - they have imagined a world full of evil and danger; then chose to live in that one rather than the real one. Who is afraid of dialogue here? Those who refuse to talk.
Monk McG claims riotously: "
Monk McG claims riotously: " . . .they have imagined a world full of evil and danger; then chose to live in that one rather than the real one."
Have these good sisters not rather been the ones out in the real world living the Gospel mandates of bringing the Good News to the Poor, liberating the captives, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, instructing the ignorant, healing the sick, loving those without love?
Are they not the ones therefore who know far better this real world, and the very real living out within it of the Gospel, than those who prefer to march around in long and pretty forty foot capes, "imagin(ing) a world full of evil and danger" outside their own tight circle of subservient yes-men?
You sir, are no Monk!
and I am the worst of all
your servant ever
frère charles du désert OSB OBLAT (Congrégation de Subiaco)
But, dear Frere, as you have
But, dear Frere, as you have stated in an earlier posting on this very topic, those who work with the poor, orphaned and abandoned boys all over the world are just people who use nothing but "smoke and mirrors". By your own statement, then, you clearly mean that those who work with the poor are doing so only for show and are not worthy of any respect.
You also claim that one of these "good sisters" is nothing more than a Nazi war criminal who is "just following orders". This particular sister is a special education teacher, working with the developmentally disabled, and a psychologist. This "good sister" is a member of a congregation founded to minister to the urban poor of Italy, and that now ministers in the fields of education, health care, diocesan ministry; they provide legal and social care for the poor and marginalized, care for unwed mothers, infant and elderly homes, pastoral ministry for the sick and dying and their loved ones. Are these "good sisters" living out the Gospel command to bring Good News to the poor, liberty to captives, clothing the naked, instructing the ignorant?
This "good sister", the mother superior of this order of "good sisters" is the very one you compared to the Nazi war criminals at Nuremburg. This "good sister" is the very sister you denied the simple respect of addressing by her appropriate title of "mother", referring to her instead as "Millea".
If this is how you feel, if you cannot put aside personal disagreement and honor the good that these individuals and their orders do, all while professing the authentic and faithful Catholic teaching, one has to wonder about your own commitment to the ministries of service that you have cited above.
"Reductio ad absurdum" as
"Reductio ad absurdum" as usual Clint.
Our Benedictine friend is pointing out that, regardless of her other merits, in this role it would appear that the good Sister is in danger of collaborating to serously damage those with whom she has much more in common than in contrast.
And that she seems to be hiding behind Rode's cassock in order to absolve herself from responsibility.
Of course Nazi analogies are always a bit hyperbolic.
How about Mei Lai?
No?
Maybe "friendly fire?"
How did her own mother
How did her own mother respond to uncontrollable rage within the household when she was small? Is this where she gets the model for enabling the abuse of others, of the innocent, of those most needy of our care, enabling and even promoting irrational abuse from the powerful figures of this world?
I did not know that you were
I did not know that you were so familiar with Mother's life story. I assume you knew her mother and can, thus, presume to judge the manner of Mother's upbringing. No wonder you feel so free to wax critical of her, to refuse to address her using her proper canonical title (something you always object to when others fail to do so), since you know her personally.
Or, do you not know her and God has given you a private revelation so that you may know her heart?
Or, are you just engaging in simple insults and calumny?
Clint, is this the same you?
Clint, is this the same you?
Apparently the idea of
Apparently the idea of "thinking with the Church" is not your idea of being a Catholic.
"You sir, are no
"You sir, are no Monk!"
------
And neither are you. An oblate is not a monk. An oblate is simply a member of a third order that anyone can join. (Does the "Congrégation de Subiaco" know you attach their name to your posts?)
An ignorant response.
An ignorant response. Oblates can - and often are - also priests, as I believe is the case with frere charles (frere meaning "father") and his use of OSB (as a Benedictine priest) after his name, as well as being an oblate. And Benedictines lead a monastic life. Yours is just another senseless attack Anonymous, in place of sincere questioning or exchange.
True servants don't spend
True servants don't spend their time on chat boards making smarky comments.
The true inclination of
The true inclination of Mother Millea is in her remarks where she reveals her opposition to sisters who do not think like her. She has Rode's condemnation of progressives too in her own ideology, an ideology that does not match the teachings of Jesus Christ. One has to look closely at her comments to glean what she is really saying. She is not really non-committal. She will try to stab to death with her pen or computer keyboard those sisters who are progressive with her 'reports'.
Monk McG, no dialogue is
Monk McG, no dialogue is allowed with Pope BXVI. Jesus did allow and did encourage dialogue and changes. He asked us to ask of God, to make requests. Jesus responded to the Cananite woman's arguments and dialogue for the healing of her gentile child..... Jesus was moved to heal and care for gentiles and not just for the children of Isreal. Jesus responded to the dialogue and requests of people. Pope BXVI refuses to dialogue with progressives, whether laity, clergy, religious or theologians. He silences, shuts down, excommunicates those who try to dialogue. Or who make requests and ask for changes. You do not write the truth when you state that the sisters refuse to talk, it is that Rode and the Pope refuse to listen and dialogue.
What is it you want to
What is it you want to dialogue about? Women's ordination?...never going to happen. Homosexual acts?... always intrinsically evil. Contraception?...intrinsically evil. Cases settled and closed. The Church cannot change its teaching. Progressives and liberals do not want to accept these teachings and continue thier dissent. By doing so, you place yourself outside Holy Mother Church, where there will be gnashing and grinding of teeth.
"[Mother Millea] tries
"[Mother Millea] tries valiantly to attain credibility for the Vatican's inexorable march toward a pre-destined ending, but her attempt falls short."
It seems that NCR believes this process has a pre-destined ending and resolutely refuses to countenance that Mother Millea might, with the benefit of actually communicating with the good sisters, actually be a bit more open minded about the results. Are the writers of the newspaper so devoid of goodwill and charity that they cannot believe in even the possibility of a positive outcome from this investigation? Aren't we all supposed to practice a little charity during Lent?
The investigation is only pre-destined to the extent that those participating, both Rome and the sisters, refuse to be open to multiple outcomes.
I have witnessed many stucies
I have witnessed many stucies and reports and most, if not nearly all, have a foregone conclusion before the investigation. There are few truly independent investigations. Maybe Mother M's will be the exception? I doubt it.
Andy, the results of this
Andy, the results of this "investigation" was pre-destined before it began.
Stories? Of the 400+ "units"
Stories? Of the 400+ "units" of religious women in the USA?
Now that's a book I would like to read. Truly.
What if a number of sisters
What if a number of sisters in a unit wish to speak to the "visitators" and what if one of them has complaints about the direction of their order. If Sister Millea gets to choose, who do you suppose the visitator will interview.
in other words malicious,
in other words malicious, spiteful, resentful and envious gossiping is encouraged?
The women religious will
The women religious will prevail against the Vatican’s attempts to discredit them and their modern life-style. The Holy Spirit is with them and will protect these courageous women in their good works in serving the Lord.
Near a million dollars in estimated expenses can be saved by gathering information from the religious orders through E-mail rather than the cost of a visitation and paperwork.
When all is said and done, the Vatican and Cardinal Rode will owe the religious women a very sincere apology.
Whether or not the Holy Spirit will protect the Cardinals and the Vatican from the billion dollars lawsuits that surely will be brought by the attorneys for the victims of sex abuse by the clergy and nuns because of lack of over-sight or cover-up will be the main issue confronting the Vatican in the future.
The NCR really comes across
The NCR really comes across as hysterical with this apostolic visitation. Every issue has a frantic, seething article on it and now, within a few days and right on the heels of the only reasonable and balanced assessment-interview that John Allen (the only reasonable and balanced writer for the NCR) has given, there is yet another tiresome rant, this time by Ken Briggs.
I can understand why fewer Catholics bother with this paper and I'm glad that I don't have to pay any money for it the times I do read these articles.
Thank you for saying what
Thank you for saying what many of us feel. It is possible to agree or disagree with Rome without becoming hysterical and whining about any thought or action that can be interpreted as malicious. John Allen is the only consistently credible writer NCR has left.
What is this "hysterical and
What is this "hysterical and whining" and please supply specific examples.
Surely not MY comments!
frère charles du désert OSB OBLAT (Congrégation de Subiaco)
You are sooo wrong Father Ex
You are sooo wrong Father Ex or is that Ex Father? Who cares? Unlike NCR, what you seem to represent is no doubt generations and generations from the Truth!
Perhaps he shares the family
Perhaps he shares the family name with Minister Malcolm of happy memory?
I appreciate your comment,
I appreciate your comment, Father Generation X, because it spurs me to do something I should have done long ago--since I read NCR online and participate in its dialogues.
That is to renew my subscription.
NCR's not perfect. It hasn't always been receptive to stories I've wanted to share with it in the past, and I find at least one of its leading luminaries far too much of an apologist for the Vatican and neoconservative interest groups than I'd like.
But NCR provides a valuable service to all of us, and it does so generously, online.
So though I'm out of work and have to watch every penny I spend, and I have no health insurance, I intend to re-subscribe to NCR. I owe it to these good folks to do so.
Thanks for spurring me to do this during Lent, Father Generation X.
Thanks Bill, and let me say
Thanks Bill, and let me say Amen. This truly does make life worth living, along with the Catholic Worker (still only a penny, might I gently suggest?).
I note your careful phrase: "I find at least one of its leading luminaries far too much of an apologist for the Vatican and neoconservative interest groups than I'd like."
Perhaps this is also the Winters of my discontent . . .
I would hardly call the NCR
I would hardly call the NCR "hysterical" in its reporting of the Vatican's attempted intimidation of the Catholic nuns. Hysterical will be when the Catholic laypeople finally rise up and storm the barricades of the cathedrals and curial palaces!
X, dude, if you don't like it
X, dude, if you don't like it don't read it.
This life long Roman Catholic is infinitely grateful for it.
"Tiresome rant?"
The only thing left worth reading.
But then again, unlike yourself, I am a gratefully paying customer, as has been my household since NCR's glorious inception.
This is why I love my Church.
I cannot understand your comments, their source and their purpose.
I am glad for NCR, and thank God for her.
I think it's because this
I think it's because this paper caters to those who are on the far left politically. Kind of like the Remnant caters to those who are usually on the far right.
On both extremes there is no real balanced perspective on anything. Every issue is a DISASTER!11!!!! or CRITITCAL!!!!1! or THIS WILL DESTROY EVERYTHING11!!!! or, usually a favorite, CONSPIRACY!!!!!
A funny experiment to try: Ready some of the frantic posts here, then go and read the Remnant. Sometimes, the same issue is being discussed, and one will say the issue is being used to drag the Church into some kind of far right facism, and the other will say that the issue is dragging the church in to some uber far left harlotry!
Meh, I guess it keeps their subscription numbers from tanking...
John Allen Jr "the only
John Allen Jr "the only reasonable and balanced writer for the NCR"? I appreciate his articles and he may even be reasonable, once you agree with his starting points. That is where I have a bit of a problem, i.e., his starting points are usually apologetic. In that way he, and thus NCR, does do us all a service by presenting the Vatican perspective.
I, for one, would not agree that "NCR really comes across as hysterical with this apostolic visitation". The Sr. Schneiders' series, for just one example, was anything but "hysteric"; a clear perspective yes but also scholarly and faithful. What does come across as "hysterical" are the selective traditionalist posts and rants that are also often full of venom, irrational, unintelligible and rote sequences of sanctimonious platitudes. Many actually seem more "heretical" than those they invite to leave the church.
The only way anyone could
The only way anyone could view this visitation as having a "pre-determined" outcome is if they already have a biased view of the Holy See in general and the process in particular. If one could actually look at this as an opportunity and not a threat, one could see that the entire purpose of this visitation is to help sisters, not to hinder or harm them. The Holy See genuinely wants to encourage sisters in what they are doing right, and help sisters to change that which they are doing wrong.
What is the problem with this?
Suppose they are not doing
Suppose they are not doing anything 'wrong'?
The fact that Catholics
The fact that Catholics familiar with this "visitation" (and the concurrent investigation) are wary of its intent and outcome speaks volumes about the lack of credibility of Rome. JPII's papacy didn't help matters. We've seen no improvement with B16 at the helm.
It's kind of like your telling us, "Hi, I'm Mr. Green, I'm from the IRS, and I'm here to help you."
Thanks, but I suspect most of us would take a "pass" in this instance.
in light of the past thirty
in light of the past thirty years of Holy See your "genuinely" goes down well with a generous cartesian seasoning.
What means this "doing right?"
By being dishonest to the charisms previously approved in their constitutions, now that one limited size is found to fit all?
What means this "doing wrong?"
You really ignore the entire
You really ignore the entire manner in which this "visitation" was initiated and structured. By your assertion that it is a "biased view" that makes others doubt its veracity you only clarify your own polarized position. So be it. The problem is that, in case you have missed it Clint, the entire process of HOW this is being done lacks the sense of support, assistance or charity you attribute to it. You consistently attribute the worst of motivations to those you disagree with, and you seem to purposefully provoke the reactions you get and then condemn them for it. There's something very wrong with what you do.
To Father Generation X: Amen
To Father Generation X:
Amen to that!
"Push back renewal"???? You
"Push back renewal"????
You REALLY think this is an effort to push back renewal??
Implicit in this view is the realization that many of these orders and members of these orders are NOT obedient to the Catholic faith. Which is why they are sooooo concerned by this--the so-called "renewal" they embrace is nothing but a failure to fully embrace the Catholic faith....
How so, you ubiquitous
How so, you ubiquitous anonymous?
How "NOT obedient to the Catholic faith?"
By not more fervently protesting our invasion of Iraq and the Afghan as condemned by two Popes?
How "nothing but a failure to fully embrace the Catholic faith?"
By having given totally all of their lives in total service to the Church only now to be abandoned and reviled in their elderly infirmity?
How so are you "obedient to the Catholic faith?"
How do you "fully embrace the Catholic faith?"
just asking
frère charles du désert OSB OBLAT (Congrégation de Subiaco)
As a Sister, I can say that
As a Sister, I can say that the number of those that actually oppose the visitation are a minority. Most moderate groups and conservative groups are welcoming this visitation. I think that it's just bad that Mr. Briggs is saying all of these things about Mother Millea, and yet doesn't have her here to defend herself.
I myself am a moderate sister. I wear my habit on Sundays, but during the normal day I wear "secular" clothing (this is just one example). The same goes for those around me. Please, try to ask all of us sisters before you start judging. Not all sisters are against the visitation (not all conservative congregations are for it and not all liberal congregations are against it). I guess even religious media writers, like Mr. Briggs, sometimes "spin" the truth.
And your name, "Sister A", is
And your name, "Sister A", is ___________________________?
I agree totally with Mr.
I agree totally with Mr. Briggs' analysis of the "visitation/inquisition." You, sister, are out of touch with reality regarding your opening statement that those who oppose the visitation are a minority. And you do quite a job of "spinning the truth" yourself.
How do you define "secular clothing"? Is it clothing that is the opposite of "sacred clothing"? Who decides what clothing is sacred and what is secular? The holiest and most faithful sisters I know do not wear habits.
This entire investigation of religious orders is a red herring designed to deflect people’s attention from the glaring injustices and incompetent handling of the priest pedophile sexual abuse crisis that is not something that happened only in the past, but is ongoing.
Associate - I am guessing,
Associate -
I am guessing, based on your language and tone, that you are the same Associate who responded to me a few days ago.
is no one in touch with reality except you and those with whom you agree?
Jean Brookbank
Mr. Briggs you simply don't
Mr. Briggs you simply don't know what you are talking about! You have never been a woman religious living a consecrated life and although you are entitled to your opinions, that's all they are!
If women's communities feel they have transcended their vows and commitment to the Church, that's fine, then they need to move on and I mean move on! All they have succeeded in doing is badly confusing the laity with their ridiculous notions! And make no mistake about it, it is 'THEIR' notions, not Christ's and certainly not the Catholic Church's.
Dear Bishop Clint Green: Of
Dear Bishop Clint Green: Of course we have a biased view of the "Holy See". Problem is, Clint dear boy, is that the "See" is neither "Holy" nor do they have enough insight into the teachings and examples of Jesus to "see" much of anything except a far right reactionary interpretation of what it means t be a Catholic Christian. And as for the dear "Sister A", I think Mr. Briggs is right on target with the opinions he expressed in this thread and I find it laughable that you, dear Sister, are talking about Mr. Briggs "spin" of the truth. Look into your own mirror, you who claim such self-righteousness! Rome is the last place to find TRUTH these days and no amount of denial and propaganda by the Clint Green types who come to the NCR threads to post their narrow and many times violent hate speech and ultra conservative interpretations of everything pertaining to Catholic Christianity is going to change the facts on the ground. The hierarchy has lost their credibility and hence their authority to teach. We aren't buying the fiction that comes out of their mouths and we are loving the coming of the second Catholic Reformation.
It is such a negation of the
It is such a negation of the Spirit that Rome makes no room for the Spirit working and speaking and inspiring others to action. When Ken Briggs writes, "Without exposing and debating those issues, the huge gulf between Rome and the majority . . .remains wide and deep," he is speaking for so many of the Faithful who continue to embrace a God bigger than any hierarchical institution.
I am a cradle Catholic, attending Catholic school, practicing my faith actively throughout my life, achieving advanced theological degrees from highly respected Catholic schools, and in the last few years I am beginning to seriously contemplate "moving on" to practice my faith elsewhere. life is too short and too precious -- too abundant -- to feel perpetually and profoundly deeply opposed to many of the choices made by my religious institution and promulgated as The Way, i.e., "My way or the highway." There must be true dialogue with everyone willing to be changed and converted by the experience. Jesus weeps; he truly does.
There is a way to run a
There is a way to run a universal church: good management.
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