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PDF versionMore snippets from a conversation with Mother Millea
by John L Allen Jr on Feb. 23, 2010
Last week I published the bulk of a Feb. 16 interview with Mother Mary Clare Millea of the Apostles of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, the sister in charge of a Vatican-sponsored apostolic visitation of women religious in America. For space reasons, a few bits of that interview were left on the cutting-room floor. Given the wide interest in the subject, however, I’ll pass along here a few sections which didn’t survive the editing process, but which nevertheless contribute to the record.
These questions and answers all come from the same Feb. 16 interview with Millea at the U.S. headquarters of the Apostles of the Sacred Heart of Jesus in Hamden, Connecticut.
* * *
I was talking yesterday with Archbishop Timothy Dolan of New York, and he made the argument that it’s a mistake for American Catholics to compare today’s numbers on anything, including religious life, with the peak period of the 1950s, because historically that peak was an aberration. Do you agree?
Yes, definitely. That was a very unusual and unique peak in the number of vocations in the 1950’s. After the pioneering and the struggling times, part of it is that we built so many institutions. Those institutions met so many young people and influenced their lives, causing them to join and to become a part of that. That was a passing phenomenon, and many of the institutions have been taken over by other people so capably.
The fact that we no longer have 180,000 sisters in America, like in the 50s, doesn’t mean that women’s religious life is on death’s door?
No, not at all. In fact, there’s certainly a definite shift in the values of this new generation of young people we have. There are young people looking for a stable way of life and something bigger than themselves to give themselves to for their entire lifetime. They are coming around looking. I do see hope that this will continue.
The other point Dolan makes is that in some ways the bishops find themselves running in circles trying to maintain an infrastructure built up during this historically anomalous period, which doesn’t necessarily make sense anymore. In some ways, women’s orders came to that realization a long time ago.
Sure. Many congregations have moved beyond the crisis point, because they have turned over their institutions. They may be ahead of what the dioceses and the parishes are doing at this point.
* * *
I imagine one struggle for you is that however transparent you may want to be, you’re also operating under a Vatican mandate that limits exactly how open you can be.
Definitely. It’s a difficult balancing act sometimes. Take for example that letter I wrote in January to the major superiors. It went out to 410 major superiors, so as soon as we knew they had it in their mailboxes, we posted it so that we would be the first to do it, and then take the consequences and the questions that inevitably come from any letter like that.
Can you give an example of the kind of thing you can’t reveal?
Certainly, we’re not going to tell you who participated fully and who didn’t. One of the few things I don’t plan to put on our Web site is a list of the congregations to be visited. We want the congregation being visited, and the people going there, to have the freedom to be relaxed and not have people outside their door. If a congregation chooses to say they’re having a visit, that’s fine.
You probably won’t need to post the list anyway, because it will likely make the rounds on the Internet soon after your letters go out.
Of course! But we want to maintain our integrity.
* * *
When you say you keep Cardinal Rodé updated, you mean you send written updates?
I do, and I always meet with him when I’m in Rome. He’s fully aware, and I don’t send anything out until he says, ‘That’s fine,’ but I’ve not had any restrictions put on me. There’s a very high level of trust there in what we’re doing and in the people that I’m working with.
You’re happy doing this work?
I’m peaceful doing it. I certainly wouldn’t have chosen to do it, among other things because I do have a full-time job. My sisters are in 14 countries and four continents. Thank God, I can keep in touch electronically, and I had just finished visiting every single community and speaking individually with every sister in my whole congregation before this started. This was my year to catch up, and instead I’ve dedicated most of the year here. But I’m peaceful, because I think that I’m serving where God wants me to right now, and there will be some very good benefits for religious life in our country.
I asked you a year ago if you had any idea of why you had been picked for this job, and you said no one had explained it to you. In the meantime, in your exchanges with Cardinal Rodé, do you have any more clear sense now?
It’s interesting how things happen in your life, and he and I have mentioned it several times. Almost six years ago, we had our general chapter for the election of our government leaders. The people in charge before me had invited Cardinal Rodé to celebrate a Mass for our sisters at the end of the chapter. He had just been appointed prefect, so we were the very first congregation he visited as prefect and it coincided with my election as general. We had a wonderful liturgy at our mother house, and had dinner together. I think that was the beginning of a rapport, and subsequently when we had our own congregational challenges I would just stop and talk to him about it to ask his advice. Perhaps I wouldn’t have done that if I had known what was coming! But that was how he got to know me, as I was consulting him about my own congregational affairs. That’s how the connection came, he didn’t just pull my name out of a hat. Looking back, I sometimes think I should have done it differently, gone to the second man in charge!
"If a congregation chooses to
"If a congregation chooses to say they’re having a visit, that’s fine."
I sincerely hope they DO choose to publicly say they're having a visit.
I am grateful to NCR for
I am grateful to NCR for publishing these 2 articles related to interviews with Mother Mary Clare. Her integrity is evident; there is no judgment, no references or inferences made in reference to any specific community. May her work and the work of the visitors result in more grace for us all. The Church, the people of the Church, need all of us.
On the Rode Again? Sister
On the Rode Again?
Sister Says: Looking back, I sometimes think I should have done it differently, gone to the second man in charge!
How does Mother Inquisitress
How does Mother Inquisitress reconcile the ambiguity in her answer to the question re updating Card. Rode'?
If there are no restrictions how come she passes every thing to him before sending it out??
Actually, that pretty well
Actually, that pretty well describes the way I saw things work when I worked in a hierarchical work environment. It was a job developing software for the State government.
I'd be given a problem, told to create a solution, and then bring it to the boss for him to check off on it. Unless I did something wrong he passed it along without modification. There weren't any restrictions on how to solve the problem, but I couldn't pass it straight to the "user acceptance test" people. After the boss signed off I'd often be the person to take the solution to testing, and while solving I'd often work directly with testing.
It's called "transparency", a
It's called "transparency", a major buzzword of the "left" today.
eugene - i see no inherent
eugene -
i see no inherent barrier preventing the possibility that
1) one can work quite authentically in an atmosphere in which in the integrity of one's work and ownership of that work is respected
AND
2) that team members require of each other that each ensure that all members of the team (above and below) are fully informed before that work or information on that work is shared outside the team.
when i was married, my husband and i were very independent people and had responsibilities within the marriage that each of us fulfilled independently AND we always made sure that the other was fully aware of those independent actions since they were taken on behalf of both of us.
as a professional, i work in a very independent way AND i always make sure that my team is fully aware of my independent actions and speech since i act and speak on behalf on the team.
in my life as a Catholic Worker - i live and work in the community - i have responsibilities i fulfill independently AND i always make sure that the other CWs are fully aware of my independent actions and speech since i speak and act on behalf our CW community.
there is, of course, a calculus for how and when i communicate my actions and speech on behalf of a partner, a work team, a community.
relevant to the interview and your concern, i cannot imagine any sensible adult in any context taking action or speaking about an issue as significant as the Apostolic Visitation (or its equivalent in any given context) without ensuring that those on whose behalf that adult speaks are fully informed prior to that action or speech.
in my world - in my marriage, in my professional life, in my CW life - i experience no ambiguity when i treat my partners with respect by informing them in advance, whenever possible, of my actions and words on our collective behalf.
i see that such conduct could be viewed as "obedience".
i am perfectly willing to commit to strive for obedience to an expectation that i treat my partners with this form of resepct even as I exercise my independence as a partner, as a professional, as a CW, as a woman, as an adult.
having read Sister Millea's responses to the interview, my guess is that Mother Millea probably does not experience the ambiguity you propose.
jean brookbank
Very simple, it's called
Very simple, it's called TRANSPARENCY.
Very clear and well said,
Very clear and well said, mother!
I wish you God's blessing and success in the visitation. May it assist the Church to grow in unity and holiness.
Once again, good job, Mr. Allen!
john - thank you for posting
john -
thank you for posting these additional questions from the interview. is there more? if so, will you be publishing it?
thank you for explaining that these were held back simply for lay-out reasons. these questions and Mother Millea's answers are important for the record; i can see why they were not prioritized for the first article; and they reinforce my first impression: you ask good journalistic questions and Mother Millea answers the questions asked of her.
I often have to force myself to read interviews or watch debates in most media outlets these days because interviewees so often answer the questions they WISH they had been asked and interviewers so rarely say, "hey thanks for that information but what i asked you was _____." the intellectual dishonesty of that exchange is maddening and a waste of time, except as confirmation or a new revelation that those involved are willing to engage dishonestly with each other and their audiences.
Thus, my genuine thanks to John Allen and Mother Millea for what seems an exchange made in the context of genuine relationship with each other and with your audience.
again, i see in Mother Millea a model of how a woman religious might exercise her "energy for relationship" in powerful and countercultural ways. she does **not** sound "American" to me, and thank goodness. there is ample evidence in the world, inside and outside our borders, that Americans in general have a great deal to learn about how to exercise our "energy for relationship" such that relationship is nurtured no matter how we feel about the person involved. it is possible to do so, even as we live our values. it is extraordinarily difficult but it is possible.
i was at a social justice meeting this month with a group of people who had just been to hear Sr Helen Prejean speak. One stood up when speaking of her thoughts of working with both the person on death row and the families of the prisoner's victim(s). as the speaker said, "with the person on death row", he extended one arm out to the right and held it there, palm open and outward. as he said "with the families of the prisoner's victims), he extended his left arm and held it there, palm open and outward. the truth of that image and Sister Helen's message brought me to tears. when we remain in relationship with all God's creation, we are likely to find ourselves experiencing the suffering of the crucified Jesus.
and what truly matters is not the cross, not the suffering. what matters is that we remain in relationship, always.
and that requires that we live a spirit of love, that we live such that our "energy for relationship" is evident, powerful, attractive, compelling, nurturing and transforming of others' "energy for relationship" for those they might reject and hold as strangers.
what matters is that we - I - remain in relationship, always, with all God's creation.
that is the gospel message. Mother Millea seems a beautiful example. i am not called to her form of religious life and yet she remains the one sister whose public energy in this conflict compels me to listen carefully to the call to religious life.
thank you again, john.
jean brookbank
Please, ‘Jean Brookbank,’
Please, ‘Jean Brookbank,’ DON'T "listen carefully to the call to religious life." You are completely out of reality. The last thing we need in 'religious life' is someone who is so out of touch and so blind as to miss the glaring inconsistencies in Millea. Consider how she's out there *risking all* in the Third World atmosphere of Connecticut while enjoying several trips to Rome, plus a generous stipend for her trouble!
Here's what you said: "i see in Mother Millea a model of how a woman religious might exercise her ‘energy for relationship’ in powerful and countercultural ways." That was obviously intended to be complimentary, but what is it supposed to mean? Before you launch into your preaching career, reflect on your statement, "what truly matters is not the cross, not the suffering," then consider signing up for theology and scripture courses at a reputable university.
Millea has betrayed her own sisters and the hundreds of thousands of Catholics who love and value them, without apparently giving it much thought. As soon as the smoke clears, Millea will realize how she was used by Rodé to an incredible degree.
Dear Associate - i have
Dear Associate - i have upset you. you evidently feel i have "preached" to you, in the negative sense in which so many of us use that word, and i sincerely apologize if i spoke in that tiresome tone to which we often refer when we accuse someone of "preaching". i hope you will accept that apology as sincere and i will watch my tone. thanks for the heads-up.
you wrote: "Here's what you said: 'i see in Mother Millea a model of how a woman religious might exercise her ‘energy for relationship’ in powerful and countercultural ways.' That was obviously intended to be complimentary, but what is it supposed to mean?
good question. i'll have to think about how better to express that impression, in hopes that i can make myself understood to you.
you wrote: "Before you launch into your preaching career, reflect on your statement, 'what truly matters is not the cross, not the suffering,' then consider signing up for theology and scripture courses at a reputable university".
my comment - quoted only partially by you here - raises my eyebrows, too. Associate. since it is not what i wrote, i see no point in trying to explain it. if you are interested in a conversation about what I *did* write, please let me know and I will respond to it.
And I love love love your idea of theology and scripture courses! religious life or not, it is one of my dreams.
You wrote: "Millea has betrayed her own sisters and the hundreds of thousands of Catholics who love and value them, without apparently giving it much thought. As soon as the smoke clears, Millea will realize how she was used by Rodé to an incredible degree".
Associate, big statements, for which you don't even feel the need to qualify them with an "I believe" or "I think". Big statements, Associate, about the inner life of another and the future.
I am happy to respond to you about what I actually wrote above.
I do anticipate that, given how you have spoken to me here, that we may make very little progress with each other. I'll hope that is not the case, since we both respect and value both women religious and religious life, enough so that you are an Associate and I am discerning and most likely with a congregation very much like the one to which you have committed yourself as an associate.
In the peace and friendship of Christ,
jean brookbank
Dear Associate, you castigate
Dear Associate, you castigate Jean Brookbank for being "out of touch & ... blind as to miss the glaring inconsistencies in Millea." Methinks it's a case of your missing inconsistencies in your own comment. It appears your stated view of Mother Clare borders on sarcasm: "Consider how she's out there 'risking all' in the Third World atmosphere of CT, etc.." Didn't you read she spent a year visiting her own sisters places in 14 countries on 4 continents? Some of these communities are definitely 3rd World in nature. Others work ministries to the marginalized of the U.S.A..Things are more complicated than they appear.
Although I don't see eye to eye with religious communities who belong to Perfectae Caritas that doesn't mean they're evil, stupid or anything like that. My idea of Church emanates from the theology of People of God; that of Perfectae Caritas has a different view of Church. This type of thing occured almost right from the start. Remember Paul coming from his prophetic ministry to the Gentiles going to confront Peter and the others whose ministry mainly occured in and among Jews? Two different views of Church even if it hadn't received that title yet... What solved the impasse? Looking for Common Ground; consensus based on being Christian as being a disciple of Jesus the Christ even though the way this happened in practice was different. What's important are the fundamentals, the two great commandments: "Love God with my whole being and love my neighbor as myself."
Let's give Mother Clare the benefit of the doubt as she replied to John's leading question ("You're happy doing this work?") "I'm peaceful doing it." She is also the person whose last words in this Part 2 were, "Looking back, I sometimes think I should have done it differently, gone to the second man in charge." Happiness is not what she expects as accompaniment to her efforts; in fact I'm sure lots of lamentation is there. Although she isn't naive she certainly is honest about admitting a gigantic mistake. She also infers that this job is something she didn't seek and probably tried hard not to undertake (we all know Rome has its ways of MAKING things happen!). How many of us would have the same humility and honesty?
I do agree with your perception that Mother Clare is being "used by (Cardinal) Rode to an incredible degree." I also think she has known this from the start and that's one of the reasons she is as open and transparent as she can be in her circumstances (I happen to see much between the lines in her responses). My prayer is that the beauty, strength, prophetic nature of the way religious life is led by most of the LCWR communities will eventually win the day "as soon as the smoke clears" Did you mean, by the way, the smoke generated by the Fire that is the Holy Spirit at work?
Hi Joan - A couple questions
Hi Joan - A couple questions that have been recurring to me during the weekend since reading your response here:
You wrote: "[Mother Millea] is also the person whose last words in this Part 2 were, 'Looking back, I sometimes think I should have done it differently, gone to the second man in charge.' Although she isn't naive she certainly is honest about admitting a gigantic mistake."
Do you genuinely think Mother Millea's comment was an admission of "a gigantic mistake"? I thought she was being humorously rueful, along the lines of "this is not exactly what I had in mind when I knocked on that particular door!" i do not hear a statement that her decision to seek a relationship with Cardinal Rode was a "gigantic mistake". do you sincerely hear that?
You wrote: "I do agree with your perception that Mother Clare is being 'used by (Cardinal) Rode to an incredible degree.' I also think she has known this from the start and that's one of the reasons she is as open and transparent as she can be in her circumstances (I happen to see much between the lines in her responses)".
My hit is that Mother Millea tries to be open and transparent, period. not as a strategic counterbalance to anyone else's lack thereof but simply because that may be exactly who she is.
What do you "see between the lines in her responses"?
Thanks for the dialogue, Joan. Jean
Dear Jean, that fact that
Dear Jean, that fact that it's taken me a week to get back to you is because life get in the way sometimes. I hope you come back to read this.
You picked up on some a few weaknesses I knew about and wanted to present anyway. I wrote them with intent to provoke a few lateral thoughts on Mr. Allen's snippets.
On the surface, I agree 100% that the final quote from Mother Clare expresses humorous ruefulness. But what if? Throughout her replies to John's questions this very highly intelligent woman walks a tightrope with humor, with as much candor as she feels free to express, with eyes wide open and I think with respect for the women she's been mandated to investigate. I pray for her as much throughout this whole wrong-headed process as I do for the women of the involved communities. Getting back to what if. What if, as I think, Mother Clare used this humorously rueful statement to cloak deep regret
that put her right at the intersection between some of the greatest problems our church presently faces today (not just in the US but universally)? Given all her other replies and her apparent personal spirituality this doesn't appear to me to be entirely fanciful.
Again we are in agreement with our perception of Mother Clare's transparency and openness as I hope what I said above clarifies. That doesn't take away from the possiblity that there are things unsaid in replying or deflecting a question(Witness the rejoinder to John's asking her if she was happy in following Cardinal Rode's Obedience mandate. Remember, she said she is at peace; she didn't mention happiness at all. There can be a world of difference between the two. For instance I think Jesus was at peace when in Gethsemene but not happy). I think that's a great example of the need to read between the lines or do deep listening. I personally prefer to read, listen, speak laterally rather than literally.
With you I'm of the opinion that the honest, integral way Mother Clare presents herself is authentic rather than strategic. However true that may be though it doesn't detract from the fact that her openness effecively becomes a counterbalance to others' possible duplicity and misuse of her "time, treasure, talents."
Jean, you ended you asking what "I see between the lines in her responses". Actually I see what I want to see; what I've seen between and within this whole ferment; what I hope everyone will see sooner or later. I see the Holy Spirit at work in Mother Clare, in the vowed religious of the USA, of Europe, Africa, Asia & of Australia. Because of this situation I see the Holy Spirit at work in baptized Catholics the world over. I see the Holy Spirit at work in the institutional church itself! Remember at Pentecost the Spirit caused the "assembled crowds" to ask if the disciples weren't drunk! Wasn't this the first "investigation" of the faithful? Throughout the process lines keep being written, spoken, delivered with more, more and yet more between them. I think it was Luke who ended his Gospel saying that there was loads more to tell. All the books in the world wouldn't be enough to tell all the Good News. It's in that manner I see between events, spoken/written lines, actions. There's always more than what appears to the eye or ear.
Thanks, Jean, for your most thought provoking remarks
Dear Joan - Thank you so much
Dear Joan - Thank you so much for *your* response. it helped me understand you better. i think i would probably love a cup of tea with you, so that i could pick your brain. i too "read" the Holy Spirit active in all involved and love your description of the unfolding of scripture. a sister i know speaks often up "opening up the Word" when we are exploring current issues and the Church and the Gospels. Peace. jean
Dear Associate - Thank you
Dear Associate -
Thank you for responding to me; you have given me much to think about. i'm not crazy about the way you "spoke" to me but you are clearly not the crazy about the way I spoke about these issues. anyway, here's hoping for a worthwhile exchange...
You wrote:
"The last thing we need in 'religious life' is someone who is so out of touch and so blind as to miss the glaring inconsistencies in Millea".
I am not sure which of her statements or actions seem inconistent to you (and thus those about which I have been blind and out of touch). Can you tell me specifically what you mean so that I can take a look at my response and the blindness you percieve in it?
You wrote: "Consider how she's out there *risking all* in the Third World atmosphere of Connecticut while enjoying several trips to Rome, plus a generous stipend for her trouble!"
Is this one of the inconsistencies you mention? If so, I am confused about what the inconsistency is. Thousands and thousands of religious are called to serve in the United States. are you suggesting that Connecticut is not home to tens of thousands of people in need - people in both material and spiritual need? is living in the third world the only respectable ministry for a woman religious?
i, for one, believe that is a patently false equation.
as to "risk": i don't understand. what kind of risk is, in your mind, required of women religious? travel: is this one of the inconsistencies? i don't get it. stipend: i would be interested to know what the stipend covers. i would anticipate that it covers her expenses. do you have specifics on the stipend? as it stands, i don't really understand your concern on this point.
you wrote: "Here's what you said: 'i see in Mother Millea a model of how a woman religious might exercise her ‘energy for relationship’ in powerful and countercultural ways'. That was obviously intended to be complimentary, but what is it supposed to mean?"
it was definitely a compliment. one of the things i have really enjoyed learning about is how many religious and priests think about their vow of celibacy and their sexuality as "energy for relationship". i love that idea that we humans are fully sexual beings whether we are directing our "energy for relationship" toward an intimate relationship with a spouse or partner at one end of the continuum OR toward intimate relationship with "God and neighbor" at the other end of the continuum. wherever we choose to direct that energy, i believe Jesus calls us to remain in relationship, always, and (as i said earlier) i believe that requires that we live a spirit of love that is evident, powerful, attractive, compelling, nurturing" of relationship with all creation. (i mean "attractive" in the "magnetic" sense) as i read about Mother Millea, I encounter a woman who lives that spirit. She is a member of both LCWR and CSMWR and votes and participates in both organizations. She seeks input from the Vatican. I did not hear any pronouncements about others. I heard a woman who uses the word "I" frequently, thus owning and bounding her statements and assessments; i heard a woman who does not seem to anticipate or experience conflict about being in relationship with people who may be or are in conflict with each other; she seems committed to remaining in relationship with everyone, despite the obvious and many probably not-so-obvious difficulties.
Mother Millea does quite obviously have the trust and confidence of the Vatican; it would be naive to assert anything else. she could, if she chose, reflect that trust by speaking of tens of thousands of her sisters in religious life as "others" placed apart from, away from, distant from herself and those sisters who live religious life as she does. that would be very consistent with the dominant American culture of "there's us and there's us....and then there is them". there is a reason FOX news sells. there is a reason Congress is a mess. there is a reason these exchanges here are so often confrontational to the point of being truly nasty at times. as a culture, we are pretty comfortable making the other guy responsible for creating/maintaining/sustaining the conditions that nurture relationships.
but Mother Millea doesn't do that. she is remaining in relationship. with everyone.
again, for me, that is the most powerful message of the Gospels: remain in relationship with God and all creation, always. i am not called to Mother Millea's form of religious life and yet she remains the one sister whose **public** energy in this conflict compels me to listen carefully to the call to religious life (which i know already you do not want me to do).
i do not get the betrayal piece, Associate. it is an emotionally compelling charge but i sincerely do not believe it is an accurate description of Mother Millea's involvement here. can you tell me more specifically what you mean? what specifically is she doing or saying that betrays specifically what? it is a very sincere question and i ask in hopes that you will want to help me understand you better.
you are correct in your assumption that i do not yet have the theological or scriptural training to tell you that "this theologian" or "that theologian" or this piece of scripture supports my belief that "what matters most" in our lives as Gospel people, as Roman Catholics, is that we remain in relationship with God, with all creation, with each other. always. period. i do, however, feel quite confident that the support is there, both theologically and scripturally. i feel quite confident that Gospel and Catholic engagement with the cross and with suffering offer a path to relationship with God, with all creation, with each other. always. and i do believe that is what matters most.
maybe i am wrong about that and my discernment and those dreamed of studies and possible-religious-life will confirm that i am wrong in that belief.
though i certainly hope not.
thanks again, Associate. you have given me much to think about.
peace.
jean brookbank
". . . she does **not** sound
". . . she does **not** sound "American" to me, and thank goodness. there is ample evidence in the world, inside and outside our borders, that Americans in general have a great deal to learn about how to exercise our "energy for relationship" such that relationship is nurtured no matter how we feel about the person involved."
===========
Nonsense. (You do not "sound 'American'", either.)
==========
To John Allen:
Did Mother Millea ever explain how she knows her henchwomen will get a special grace for swearing the oath to Rode?
As for the huge amount of
As for the huge amount of religious sisters in the fifties, let's count the number of lay ministers in the fifties with the numbers now. here are just a few numbers to get us started. In 1955 lay eucharistic ministers and lectors in the USA = zero
2010 about 1/2 million eucharistic ministers and lectors .. Now go back to Rome with these numbers, where they preach about 'diminished faith'..
This is a very weak
This is a very weak comparison. Do you not see a difference between an occasional liturgical ministry and a life dedicated to prayer and service?
Dear Perplexed, there are
Dear Perplexed, there are baptized laity animated by faith with a lifelong dedication to advancing the Kingdom --- who also serve in Eucharistic and other ministries AND there are baptized laity who've taken vows as religious sisters or brothers also with a lifelong dedication to advancing the Kingdom. Yes, there is a difference but it's in manner of living out our baptism. Both "laity" and religious brothers & sisters (also laity by virtue of being outside the hierarchy), I hope, live as disciples of Jesus the Christ as confirmed by the Holy Spirit. There is no WE and THEY; there is only WE when speaking of the laity in a clericalized hierarchical insitution such as is the Roman Catholic Church.
Dear Perplexed ; are you
Dear Perplexed ;
are you completly unaware of the fact that almost all the Catholic School teachers now are lay persons. Other posters here are gushing about the nuns whose conservative communities amount to 5% are 'florishing' to about 6%.. Opening your eyes will relieve perplexia.
I agree with you, Ed. While
I agree with you, Ed.
While there has been an obvious decrease vocations to religious life since Vatican II, there has also been a GREAT increase of vocations to fulltime Church ministry among the married and single life. In many cases these outnumber religious and priests! I don't see this as a bad thing. Furthermore, women in religious orders alongside these married & single people in fulltime ministry have become better educated, formed and informed because of Vatican II. The opportunities for formation and education has increased in the Church. When one looks at it this way, there really is no vocation shortage for ministry in the Church. The only decrease from this perspective is a shortage of ordained vocations (to the priesthood)!
Tim Dolan is right, of
Tim Dolan is right, of course. But there is reason for concern (and for this investigation) when it is obvious that the women's congregations who advertise themselves as the wave of the future are dying before our our eyes for lack of recruits; whereas the congregations like those which Mother Millea leads are growing and thriving. I have yet to see a single critic of the investigation honestly confront this situation. Cheers once again for Mother Millea. What a fine, wise, and humble woman she clearly is!
Presbyter felix on Feb. 23,
Presbyter felix on Feb. 23, 2010.
You stated:
"Tim Dolan is right, of course. But there is reason for concern (and for this investigation) when it is obvious that the women's congregations who advertise themselves as the wave of the future are dying before our our eyes for lack of recruits; whereas the congregations like those which Mother Millea leads are growing and thriving. I have yet to see a single critic of the investigation honestly confront this situation. Cheers once again for Mother Millea. What a fine, wise, and humble woman she clearly is!"
--------------------------------
Don't be so fast to conclude that all women's communities, like Mother Clare Millea's community, are growing and thriving. It doesn't matter if each year, 100 candidates enter. What matters is how many survive to profess final vows---and stay after that.
Please remember that all candidates come from families, come from the larger society. The church itself, cannot escape either history or the present as it moves into the future. Religious communities that try to turn the clock back---will attract candidates for awhile as a novelity. But when the reality of lived community begins to sink in---the large numbers begin to decrease.
It is the same with candidates to the priesthood. A priest friend of mine told me that when he entered the seminary---there were thirty other young men in his class. The rector of the seminary addressed the new seminarians telling them that it will be remarkable if two of them were ordained. It would have been remarkable, but my friend was the only one ordained from the original class of 30.
Thanks for posting these
Thanks for posting these pieces. They give a human face to Mother Mary Clare Millea.
What do you know about
What do you know about Cardinal Rode? I have heard that he is a big fan of large gifts to Cardinals from religious orders / congregations. Where was he regarding the Legionaires of Christ? It makes me wonder about the visitations. I do not want to spread bad info. about a Cardinal, so any insights or facts that you know of would be helpful.
The drums in my village are
The drums in my village are saying:
http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2009/07/vatican-investigates-legion...
Chaput is the American
Chaput is the American visitator.
LOL
Mother Millia seems to be a
Mother Millia seems to be a good woman who is trying to do the best she can in a very difficult situation. While the investigation itself might be a Vatican witch hunt, I don't think its a Mother Millia witch hunt. I hope she will not be put in the impossible position of having to give to the Vatican what they want to hear and see, rather than the real facts of the breadth and depth of the varied and dedicated ministries of US women religious today.
Any intelligent reader could
Any intelligent reader could have pretty well predicted the answers to these questions (and predicted the questions). These two insiders have a very comfortable relationship with the church, with the male leaders, with the whole Vatican church super-structure. But there's no sense of any crisis in the church. While they refer to the 1950's there is a sense that that's where they are--in the good old days. Mother Millea puts herself in God's hands--but those hands are really the hands of Cardinal Rode---in all his perfect robes, silks and laces.
Along with the first
Along with the first interview, I am glad you posted this second portion of the interviews. Sr. Millea appears to be a very sane, capable, and balance person. One thing is clear from the various prior responses to the Apostolic Visitation and Millea's work: they (the responses) are all very predictable--whether on the left or on the right (progressive or traditional), the reactions were (and continue to be) very boring...because they are predictable. Shame on all of us for trying to play God when we judge...myself included...
My thoughts exactly. The
My thoughts exactly. The hyperbole from both sides, from comparing the visitation to an inquisition to asserting that American religious are heretics, is simply ridiculous!
Dear Perplexed. While I agree
Dear Perplexed. While I agree that hyperbole is rampant regarding the whole issue of the investigation of communities U.S women I can't agree there are only two sides. We are deeply so inculturated to thinking either-or so that it's almost impossible for us to think/speak in other than things like "two sides", "on the horns of a dilemma" and other dualisms.
As with all reality, this visitation issue has many sides, one of which is definitely/definedly can be described as a type of inquisition after the fashion of those carried out in the recent and not-so-recent past against theologians/philosophers such as Jon Sobrino, Tissa Ballasuryia, Leonardo Boff, Ivone Gebara and a myriad of others (the list is mighty long). That's one reason this issue has caught the hearts and minds of people "of every persuasion" the world over - and - I happen to think, the Holy Spirit.
Is it correct to think that
Is it correct to think that Millea is tabulating the results of the questionnaire and then deciding which congregations to visit? If so, then I am confused: In November 2009 I visited the Motherhouse of a very large US Congregation and some of the sisters mentioned that they had already been visited.
Incidentally, the word, "visitator" is not recognized as an English word, according to Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition. The closest I can see is "visitant: 1."Visitor", especially "one thought to come from a spirit world;" 2. "a migratory bird that appears at intervals for a limited period."
According to the dictionary, Millea is a "visitor," especially "one that makes formal visits of inspection."
Millea's tone during the interview indicated that she views her work as important -- perhaps similar to the important work of the person who performs the task of loading the rifles for the firing squad.
associate - my understanding
associate -
my understanding is that CARA is tabulating the "demographic" and numeric/descriptive data.
i too have read and heard that certain communities have alredady been "visited". i think there is an article by a sister who said that her community had been "visited" as part and parcel of a June 2009 visit by Mother Millea to the sister's Presidemt or Motehr Superior. i'll try to find it.
i was confused by the language as well.
i have come to the conclusion that those earlier "visits" were part of the first phase, in which Mother Millea extended to all congregational leaders the opportunity to meet personally with her in that first phase. maybe Mother Millea had that personal meeting with some leaders at their place rather some other location?
have you gotten in touch with the Motherhouse you visited to ask them?
i would be interested in clarification on this score, too. will you let me know through this site what you learn from the Motherhouse?
the gun imagery: i love a good rousing verbal knock-about. i just can't see the value in this particular context.
jean brookbank
That's really sad for a woman
That's really sad for a woman today, especially a Religious, to say "Cardinal Rode and I became friends and I would ask him for advice." Of course, he chose her to do his bidding. He knew she would do exactly what he told her to do.
"The other point Dolan makes
"The other point Dolan makes is that in some ways the bishops find themselves running in circles trying to maintain an infrastructure built up during this historically anomalous period, which doesn’t necessarily make sense anymore. In some ways, women’s orders came to that realization a long time ago."
"Sure. Many congregations have moved beyond the crisis point, because they have turned over their institutions. They may be ahead of what the dioceses and the parishes are doing at this point."
So let me get this straight:
congregations have moved beyond the crisis point
congregations have turned over their insitutions (I assume according to Perfectae Caritatis)
congregations may be ahead of dioceses and parishes.
Then why are the Sisters being investigated?
Why aren't the dioceses and parishes being investigated?
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . .
Dear Christa, Bingo! You hit
Dear Christa,
Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. The religious women of America are decades and decades ahead of the Bishops and the Vatican. They have been tested by changing demographics, underfunded ministries, elder care decision-making, conversations towards merger, customs no longer viable, and ministerial needs forever outstripping human and material resources. All of these realities have tested congregations and their leaders.
The Vatican, bishops and priests, have yet to fully grapple with these issues. And as far as the Vatican is concerned---they haven't even begun yet.
There seems to be a lot of
There seems to be a lot of anti-Catholicism associated with those who are critics of the Apostolic Visitation. Unfortunately, this anti-Catholicism comes from within--those religious who still, despite their criticisms, claim to be Catholic. You've got to hand it to the Devil on this one: he corrupted the Church from within, just as Pope Paul VI surmised when he said, "The smoke of Satan has entered the Church."
Prayers and best wishes to Mother Clare. She will, in the end, be vindicated.
"The smoke of Satan has
"The smoke of Satan has entered the church" . . .
and his name is Bernard Law
and his name is Raymond Burke
and his name is Franc Rode
and his name is JPII
and his name is BXVI
and his name is all who chose secrecy before honesty
and his name is all who chose the institution above the human person
and his name is all who in any way enabled the sexual abuse of children
and his name is all who sexually abused children
and his name is all who wear magna cappas but have never worked with the poor
and his name is all who attempt to throw the church back to medieval times
and his name is all who attempt to quell Ruah
and his name is legion among the hierarchy, especially the curia.
God forgive you TNCath for
God forgive you TNCath for your reckless, condemning, anti-Catholic, anti-Christian remarks. Do you really know a person's innermost being?
Dearest TNCath, For a brief
Dearest TNCath,
For a brief overview of anti-Catholicism, I invite you to review several of your recent comments with compassion and humility.
When Pope Paul spoke of the smoke of Satan he was referring to the newly emerging totalitarian "conservative" movement. How very clever of you to suggest the opposite.
Please see the July 1999 John Hopkins University publication "The Smoke of Satan: Conservative and Traditionalist Dissent in Contemporary American Catholicism" by Michael W. Cuneo, now generously available at amazon for under a dollar.
Or you may borrow my copy, free (if you can dig it out of the pile, no, the pile).
Vindicated?
Such prophecy can seem so arrogant at times, like the twisting of papal dictums.
Yet I am the worst of all, pro-Catholic, Catholic through and through.
and ever yours, I remain
frère charles du désert OSB OBLAT (Congrégation de Subiaco
Frere Charles, The following
Frere Charles,
The following was taken from a 2008 interview with His Eminence, Virgilio Cardinal Noe, former master of ceremonies to Pope Paul VI. This is an English translation excerpt from the following website:
http://www.papanews.it/dettaglio_interviste.asp?IdNews=7624#afterLoaded
Question to Cardinal Noe: "Paul VI’s denunciation of the presence of the smoke of Satan in the Church is unforgettable. Still today, that discourse seems to be incredibly relevant."
Answer from Cardinal Noe: "You from Petrus, have gotten a real scoop here, because I am in a position to reveal, for the first time, what Paul VI desired to denounce with that statement. Here it is. Papa Montini, for Satan, meant to include all those priests or bishops and cardinals who didn’t render worship to the Lord by celebrating badly (mal celebrando) Holy Mass because of an errant interpretation of the implementation of the Second Vatican Council. He spoke of the smoke of Satan because he maintained that those priests who turned Holy Mass into dry straw in the name of creativity, in reality were possessed of the vainglory and the pride of the Evil One. so, the smoke of Satan was nothing other than the mentality which wanted to distort the traditional and liturgical canons of the Eucharistic ceremony.
"It is thought that Paul VI was the real culprit as the cause of all the ills of post-Conciliar liturgy. But based on what you have revealed, Eminence, Montini compared the liturgical chaos, even if in a veiled way, actually to something hellish.
"He condemned craving to be in the limelight and the delirium of almighty power that they were following the Council at the liturgical level. Mass is a sacred ceremony, he often repeated, everything must be prepared and studied adequately, respecting the canons, no one is "dominus" [lord] of the Mass. Sadly, in many after Vatican II not many understood him and Paul VI suffered this, considering the phenomenon to be an attack of the Devil."
This hardly sounds like the "newly emerging totalitarian 'conservative' movement." I would also submit that Cardinal Noe would have a much better perspective about what Paul VI meant that Mr. Cuneo.
What happened to the comment
What happened to the comment I posted earlier today. S. Dolan
Did anyone see M. Clare's
Did anyone see M. Clare's article in the latest REVIEW FOR RELIGIOUS?
Associates comments (2/24)
Associates comments (2/24) in response to the post by Jean Brookbank are very disturbing. I have been a faithful reader of both the print and online versions of NCR since my youth (that would be the print version!) and have always appreciated the richness of diverse view points but it seems as if the Apostolic Visitation is bringing out more of the "ugly" than usual. The poster may seem completely out of reality to "Associate" but that does not mean she doesn't have a call to religious life. I have been a religious for almost 30 years and I certainly see reality in different ways now than I did in the 80's. Although I do agree that studying theology, etc. is a good idea- it helped inform my worldview.
The sarcastic comment about Mother Millea being in Connecticut (as if she is relaxing at an estate with the rich and famous!) and having perks including a "generous stipend" is uncalled for and particularly nasty. I have not read anywhere about a generous stipend for Mother Millea but I have read that her "home base" as the general superior of her order is in Rome. She certainly is entitled to continue to do her own ministry inbetween her responsibilities for the Vatican. Until recently the attacks on the visitation have not been attacks on Mother Millea but things seem to be turning now despite Allen's excellent reporting.
Finally, saying that Millea has "betrayed" anyone is a bit extreme no matter what one thinks of the visitation.
This visitation is going to go on whether we support it or not. During this Lenten season perhaps we need to all reflect on what is really important and let the Holy Spirit guide the visitation, the report and the ultimate response to the report. The Church has survived much more than this.
I am truly disappointed in
I am truly disappointed in Mr. Allen. I remember the highly critical book he wrote about Joseph Ratzinger when he was Cardinal. He became Pope and suddenly became a great guy. Mr. Allen seems to have changed his thinking. He now offers us Mother Malea as hero. He has no idea how religiou live and is getting one side of the story.
To all of you folks who are constantly saying all the conservative orders are growing: can we have the statistics on that? Especially, how many make final vows?
Mr.Allen was wrong about Joseph Ratzinger when he wrote the first book; perhaps he is wrong now. P.S. the Sisters are not "Satan."
TNCath: It's really NOT
TNCath: It's really NOT about "anti-Catholicism associated with those who are critics of the Apostolic Visitation," what it IS about is the DISHONESTY behind a witch hunt of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, an organization which has more than earned the respect and support from thousands of American Catholics. Vatican II has been subverted by the far right reactionary elements in the Church and millions of American Catholics believe this group has tried to "restore" the Catholic Church to the dark days before the Second Vatican Council. The Church hierarchy is both misogynistic (there is no biblical or theological justification for not ordaining women to the priesthood or episcopacy) and homophobic (the hierarchy has disenfranchised and marginalized homosexual people, which is against what Jesus taught about His inclusive love of all people. The current Bishop of Rome is to the right of the last Bishop of Rome and both of these men disenfranchised women from an equal role in all the Church's ordained ministries and this goes against the teachings of Christ. "The smoke of Satin" has indeed entered the Church and it is most evident in the papacies of the current and the previous Bishop of Rome and the imperial court of the College of Cardinals, which have no place in a Catholic Church that claims to be disciples of Jesus Christ. These current power holders in the Vatican in Rome have indeed "corrupted the Church from within" and let's place the blame where it belongs, on the shoulders of a decaying and corrupt imperial model held hostage by an elite and corrupt group of men who claim to speak for God Almighty. This is a Church that bears no resemblance to the Church that Christ asked of his apostles. Expressing a dissenting opinion is NOT being anti-Catholic, it is about giving voice to The People of God, who ARE the Church. The Church is in a state of decay and a new Church that the Council Fathers of Vatican II envisioned is about to emerge. This is a second Catholic Reformation that had its' seeds in the Second Vatican Council. Mary Clare Millea is a shill for a group of Restorationist elites in Rome who do not represent the ONE, TRUE, APOSTOLIC and UNIVERSAL Church. Stop blaming these remarkable women of the LCWR. They deserve our LOVE and our RESPECT.
"Here's much to do with hate,
"Here's much to do with hate, but more with love." (Romeo and Juliet, Act I, Scene i)
If you hate the Church this much, I'm puzzled as to why you would care to stay in or even care enough to comment?
LA times reports peak for
LA times reports peak for Sisters was 1966, not the 1950s
Number of Nuns on Brink of Precipitous Drop - latimes.com
As Roman Catholic nuns approach the next century, a new nationwide survey confirms ... were 94022 nuns in the United States, compared to a peak of 181421 in 1966. ... and 53% of nuns consider the church weaker than it was 30 years ago, ...
www.latimes.com/news/.../la-940221nunpoll,1,5141985.story - Cached - Similar
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