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PDF versionBishops are not 'Obama haters,' Dolan insists
by John L Allen Jr on Feb. 14, 2012
ROME -- Insisting that the Catholic bishops of America are not “Obama haters,” soon-to-be Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York said this morning that while the bishops regard a recent compromise on insurance mandates announced by the administration as unacceptable, he’s committed to “dialogue” and a “posture of openness” in trying to reach agreement.
There’s still “a little glimmer of hope,” Dolan said, that an acceptable solution can be found.
Dolan said he’s well aware that some Americans, including some Catholics, believe that “the bishops can’t stand this administration anyway, so any thought of dialogue or moderation is really a waste of time, because the bishops aren’t about to stop opposing [it].”
Dolan insisted that impression is both “strategically counter-productive” and “factually untrue.”
"We didn't start this battle, and I'm kind of uncomfortable with it," he said, "We'd much rather be conciliatory."
Dolan also said he was “disappointed” with the quick support given to the administration’s announcement by the Catholic Health Association, saying it amounted to "popping the champagne cork" before the bishops had a chance to react. There too, he said, he wants to keep the dialogue going.
On other matters, Dolan said that despite a recent series of scandals in the Italian press involving the current papal ambassador to the United States, Italian Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, he believes Viganò can still be effective.
If anything, Dolan said, revelations of Viganò’s complaints about corruption and cronyism in Vatican finances may lift his stock in the States, making him seem like someone “who does not look upon the internal workings of the Holy See with rose-colored glasses.”
Dolan spoke this morning in an exclusive interview with NCR from Rome, where he’s set to be named a cardinal by Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday.
* * *
Having studied it, are you still convinced that the change announced by the Obama administration to the insurance mandates is unacceptable?
I am convinced of that. That doesn’t dull the truth of the initial openness to a possible glimmer of hope that we saw in the beginning. As you know, the first press release the bishops put out said this might be a good first step. I’m still trying to keep that little flicker alive. We’ve got the fact that the President of the United States has shown attentiveness to an overwhelming expression of concern, not just from Catholics but the ecumenical and inter-religious community, and even the wider American community. There’s also the fact that he thinks that some mitigation is called for, and the fact that he’s said let’s continue to dialogue and work this out. That gives us an undeniable little glimmer of hope.
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What’s threatening to suffocate and extinguish that flicker of hope is the fact, first of all, that the so-called mitigation he announced raises more questions than it gives answers. For example, what about the self-insured? What about individuals? It also raises an alarm about the overriding philosophical question about what right a bureau of the federal government has to tell a church how to define what it’s going to do and by whom it’s going to be done, which is scary and chilling for any thoughtful American. He hasn’t tended to that yet. Thirdly, the other thing that threatens to put out this little flicker of hope is that now senior officials, including his chief of staff, have said that it’s over, there will be no more moderation. That doesn’t gel with what the president has said publicly and what he’s said to me personally.
I’m not ready to give up hope, but upon the further study that we bishops promised we would give of the president’s announcement, we don’t think it does it.
In terms of the politics, are you worried that the story is shifting from ‘bishops have legitimate concern’ to ‘stubborn bishops won’t meet Obama halfway’?
Yes, I am. I’m concerned on two levels.
First of all, I’m concerned that the narrative might be getting out there that this is over and done with. The bishops bravely spoke up, the president listened, he’s given some very logical changes, case is closed. That bothers me, because as I just said, it’s not true.
Second, I am worried about a story being out there that the bishops can’t stand this administration anyway, so that any thought of dialogue or moderation is really a waste of time because the bishops aren’t about to stop opposing you. I’m concerned about that, first of all because it’s strategically counter-productive. Number two, it’s not true.
Do you believe that Obama is waging a war on religion?
I don’t want to believe that. I find myself agreeing with many of President Obama’s policies. I find myself believing him when he assures me that he has the highest regard for the work of the church, especially in health care, education, and works of peace, charity and justice. I want to believe him when he says he wants this administration to do nothing to impede that good work, and that he considers the protection of conscience and freedom of religion to be one of the highest calls that he has as president, to protect the constitution. I want to believe him. I have to say that sometimes he makes it hard to believe him, but I will not place myself or my brother bishops in the camp of Obama-haters, because we’re not.
Anybody familiar with the history of the Catholic church knows that with every single President of the United States, we’ve applauded some things that he’s done and we’ve sat on our hands for others. It’s no different now. This may be one of the more well-oiled and effective protests that we’ve waged to something a president has done, which is why it’s getting attention, and I’m glad it is. But that doesn’t make us bullies who are now trying to impose our beliefs on the rest of the country, and trying to utilize the offices of the federal bureaucracy to do that. I would say that we’re not the ones imposing anything here. We didn’t start this battle, and I’m kind of uncomfortable with it. I don’t like battles. I know it has to be part of our ministry. I’m going to be reminded on Saturday that sometimes we have to do battle at the cost of blood in defense of the faith, but we’d much rather be conciliatory. We’d much rather be cooperative.
When I went into the Oval Office in November, the first thing the president did is to say, ‘Archbishop Dolan, let’s rehearse the areas in which my administration and the Catholic community in the United States is cooperating.’ He went into a litany of about ten minutes, and all I could do was nod my head in agreement. I also added a few more he had forgotten. It’s not like there’s total conflict, and I want to get that out. Strategically, we do not need to be painted into a corner where we’re some bully, obstinate bishops who do not want to dialogue or have any posture of openness to this administration. More importantly, it’s factually not true.
When Obama announced the revision, the Catholic Health Association quickly supported it. Were you disappointed by that?
I would have to say I was disappointed. I have high regard personally for Sr. Carol [Keehan, head of the Catholic Health Association]. I’ve worked with her, I hope we can continue to do that, and I have a lot of respect for the Catholic Health Association. I was disappointed. Some people have said that the bishops don’t want anybody in conversation with the White House besides themselves, but that’s not true. I’m thrilled that Sr. Carol has an entrée, and that she’s making the Catholic voice heard. My disappointment is that she made an announcement that was pretty much popping the champagne cork before we could even respond. After the health care debacle, she had said to me, ‘Archbishop, though I stand behind what I did, one of the things we need to do is to work more closely hand in glove.’
I haven’t had the honor of a conversation with her, though I have let her know of my disappointment in writing. I look forward to meeting with her personally. I have been led to believe by people that have spoken with her and other organizations that although they might see a bit more hope than we bishops do, they also, after the dust has settled, have serious reservations and continuing questions.
You want to keep the dialogue open with CHA?
We have to. By the way, I think Fr. John Jenkins [president of the University of Notre Dame] was excellent. I don’t mind telling you that he called me early Friday morning to say, ‘Archbishop, I have been reached by the White House with news of a possible announcement today. My posture has been, you need to be talking to Archbishop Dolan.’ He waited, as did the Association of Catholic Colleges and Universities, Catholic Relief Services, and Catholic Charities, to hear what we bishops were going to say before they put any release out. I highly appreciate that.
Here in Italy, the perception is that the papal ambassador in the United States, Italian Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, has been badly compromised by a series of leaks and scandals. Do you believe Viganò can still be effective?
Yes, yes, yes, for a number of reasons. First of all, we American bishops usually divide by ten any gossip that we hear from the Vatican. We don’t know how accurate it is, and most of the time we turn past that and go to the sports page. Number two, in the short time he’s been in the States, we’ve grown to love him. I mean that sincerely. He stood before us in November, and even back then some of this gossip was hovering over him. We knew that. He stood up in front of us, in utter sincerity, obviously rather shy, and said, ‘Brothers, I am honored to be here. I’m happy to be here. I consider it an honor, and your welcome has only given me more encouragement.’ Even in the first three months, we’ve grown to appreciate his sincerity and his humility.
For me personally, and I’ve spoke to enough other bishops about it, I think that if anything, this enhances his role. You’ve got to keep in mind that for us bishops, the nuncio is not only the representative of the Holy See to the United States. One of his major jobs is to bring back our sentiments and observations to the leadership in the Vatican. This, in a way, enhances his credibility as someone who does not look upon the internal workings of the Holy See with rose-colored glasses, but is well aware of difficulties there. In a way, I think it enhances his credibility as somebody who wants to constantly hold the church, both the Holy See and the church in the United States, to the highest standards of fidelity to the gospel. When that doesn’t happen, he’s not afraid to confront it, even at the cost of personal sacrifice.
You don’t get the sense that he sees being in the States as an exile or consolation prize?
No, not at all. At the beginning, I brought that to his attention, and he just smiled and said, ‘How can anybody think an assignment to the United States is a demotion?’ He said he’s honored to serve in this capacity. Loyal churchman that he is, his heart is broken over a controversy that he wishes would never have risen to this level. In my conversations with him, since, however, my impression is that he remains more committed than ever to his role as the bridge between the Holy See and the Catholic Church in the United States.
Have you picked up any concern in the Vatican about the situation in the United States?
Nobody’s asked me about it. Cardinal [Francis] George told me that we need to talk because he’s been getting some questions, but he led me to believe it was mostly information questions, helping [the Vatican] to understand this. The nuncio is right on top of things, Archbishop Viganò. I called him on Friday to bring him up to date with the posture of the bishops, and he was highly attentive to that, which speaks well of him. I’m pretty confident that he’s getting some of the interpretations over.
These bishops, and the others
These bishops, and the others jumping on the bishops' culture war chariots, can henceforth be referred to as the VAGINA IDEOLOGUES, as brilliantly termed last night on the Jon Stewart Show.
In case you missed it: If you
In case you missed it:
If you want to see how the rest of the world views the political gaming of the hierarchs, last night on "The Daily Show with Jon Stewart" there was some withering comic satire entitled "The Vagina Ideologues" Episode #17056: http://www.thedailyshow.com/
It's not about the Vagina
It's not about the Vagina Ideologues. It's about the Vagina Monologues:
"Shut up! Just shut up! I am your bishop and I will tell you all you need to know about your vagina. The fact that I've never actually seen one is completely irrelevant. I am a successor of the apostles and what I say goes."
If you buy the bishops' nonsense, some people would call it blind faith. I call it idiocy.
The Bishops might want to get
The Bishops might want to get it through their thick skulls that many people don't care what they say about birth control. Everyone rejected Paul VI Humanae Vitae when it was released, so why are we worried about this now? Is it another way to keep women under their feet? My feeling is the church (the lay people of God are truly the "church") spoke long ago about what they think about contraception and it wasn't in any agreement with the bishops stand on it. I think most if not all feel the same way about this in the 21st century.
Pres. Obama at least tried to to give in somewhat but oh no, the high and mighty heirachy has to come down hard on him. I really do not think this has anything to do with separation of church and state it has more to do with them having power and control over the lay people especially, lay Catholic women. Really, who the hell do they think they are? They are implicated in covering up one of the most heinous crimes anyone could commit...the raping of our children and they think we would listen to them? Do you have the feeling that they have lost the moral high ground with their complicity in these sexual scandals? And then they think they can turn around and tell Catholics and Catholic hospitals and Catholic women what to do with their own sexual choices? Honest to God, I find them out of touch with reality. Or are they just trying to change the subject away from the pedophilia scandal onto this birth control issue?
If people do not want to use contraception offered by their insurance company they don't have to, do they? We are not children and we can figure these issues out. The Birth Control boat sailed in the 1960's but they still think we are waiting for them to tell us what to do and to obey them come hell or high water. Keep dreaming bishops. They really are priceless aren't they?
I am sorry if I offended any readers with my sarcasm but sometimes I cannot help myself especially when it comes to the heirachy these days...
Great post, Joanne and you
Great post, Joanne and you certainly reflect what most of us out here and on these boards think.
As far as the sarcasm goes, I was just recently accused of it, though rather lightheartedly, but I'll tell you, I wear the 'sarcasm' label proudly, right next to my proud --to-- be--liberal label! :-)
DOLAN DISSEMBLES AGAIN?
DOLAN DISSEMBLES AGAIN? ...... Michael, a bit much in words perhaps, but right in substance.
John, it is becoming so clear why Dolan likes playing "softball" with you. It is also revealing how Dolan is trying to walk back his suggestion that Sr. Carol Keehan, head of the US Catholic Health Association, is taking bribes from Obama's HHS Secretary Sibelius, to approve Obama's health insurance compromise. . The admission by Dolan that he checked in on Friday, the day Obama announced his compromise, with Vigano, the pope's point man in the US, is also telling.
John, the bishops have a major problem. Obama's Federal prosecutors are increasing their efforts against child sexual predators and Obama has forcefully spoken out against child sexual abuse. It is no coincidence that Dolan anxiously sought to meet privately with Obama a few days after the Penn State case broke.
Given the bishops shameful record, neither the bishops nor their lawyers, understandably, want to face another four years of an aggressive Obama Justice Department. Hence, in their view, Obama needs to be replaced by a friendlier Republican as US prosecutor-in-chief. This "anti-contraception crusade" is really about bishops' avoiding Federal criminal "prosecution", and not about protecting bishops against Federal religious "persecution".
It is interesting that neither you nor others in the media have asked Dolan about the role here of his St. Louis mentor, Cardinal Rigali. Another Rigali protege, indicted Opus Dei member, Bishops Finn of Kansas City, will likely be affected by the upcoming Federal criminal trial of the pedophile priest Finn criminally failed to report. Rigali himself remains yet at some risk of criminal prosecution for covering-up priest pedophiles as the Philly trial of his former aide, Msgr. Lynn, quickly proceeds to trial.
Rigali, a longtime curial powerhouse, still serves with Cardinal Law on key Vatican committees. He surely has the pope's ear.
Ir seems clear the pope and US bishops fear Federal criminal "prosecution" much more than Federal religious "persecution". Cynical, perhaps. But bishops behave much like the wealthy corporate donors who fund the bishops' right wing support groups. Based on my legal represention of senior executives of multinational corporations for decades after Harvard Law School, once the possibility of criminal prosecution arises, there is no higher priority than avoiding prosecution at almost any cost.
For more evidence of the papal ploy to wrap the bishops' criminal strategy in a contraceptive Trojan Horse, please see the comments, "Founding Fathers' Shock", "Obama Dream Come True" and "No Deal Ever, Obama!", all readily accessible by clicking on at:
http://ncronline.org/news/politics/bishops-studying-revised-contraceptio...
That's too funny--and sadly
That's too funny--and sadly true.
God is so good! It is amazing
God is so good! It is amazing to see how our very perverted lives are going to be the source of our undoing. We want to have our perverted sex lives and are now willing to give up our very Rights (religion and speech) and freedoms, so we can keep a sexual life that goes against God and nature. Great! We are going headlong into complete anarchy and societal breakdown.
Perverted lives as in what,
Perverted lives as in what, taad, effective family planning?
Did you even read this
Did you even read this article? I suppose that Jon Stewart knows much more about these things than say, the man who has actually spoken to the president.
I guess that everyone is back in their petty little corners. Sad.
I suppose that Jon Stewart
I suppose that Jon Stewart does actually know more about these things. Jon has actually spoken to women and listens to them. In all my years working in the Catholic church I am not aware of any bishop sitting down with women and having a serious discussion on women's experiences with health and family planning. Really sad.
I AGREE WITH CLARA. HOW ELSE
I AGREE WITH CLARA. HOW ELSE COULD THE CLERGY POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND A WOMAN'S VIEW POINT? OUR BISHOP SAID THAT OBAMA/AND/OR ADMINISTRATION AS MUCH AS TOLD THE CATHOLICS TO GO TO HELL. GREAT RESPONSE FROM OUR LEADER!
WE NEED TO GET OFF THE BIRTH CONTROL ISSUE. STICK WITH FIGHTING ABORTION. BIRTH CONTROL DECREASES ABORTIONS. MY INSURANCE PAYS IN PART FOR MY MEDICATIONS. I DON'T KNOW ANYONE WHO HAS ALL THEIR MEDS PAID FOR. PERHAPS THE POLITICIANS AND THE CLERGY? MAKING INSURANCE COMPANIES PAY FOR CONTRACEPTIVE PILLS WOULD BE A WELCOMED RELIEF FOR MANY WOMEN WHO CAN'T AFFORD IT.
HOW ABOUT THE CHURCH GETTING ON A BAND WAGON FOR CHILD ABUSE AS SEEN RIGHT HERE IN PA. FEED THE POOR. TAKE CARE OF THE HOMELESS. TEACH SANCTITY IN EVERYDAY LIFE. I OFTEN WISH I HAD THE BACKBONE TO CHANGE CHURCHES, BUT I HAVE BEEN TOO LONG A CATHOLIC.
You forgot about the birth
You forgot about the birth control commission.
bishop dolan and the rest of
bishop dolan and the rest of the bishops do not talk with barack obama they yell at him. the bishops do not yell at republican leaders; they only yell at barack obama and the democrats. the bishops have clearly taken a side in the political debate of our country, they side with the GOP despite the fact that the GOP clearly is morally and justice challenged. the bishops do indeed sound like they hate barack obama.
You are SO right! I am a
You are SO right! I am a life-long Catholic female and am shocked at the extreme Rightwing stance the American Catholic Bishops have taken for a long time by totally supporting the GOP-Conservative agenda in this country and "disguising" their support by taking issue now with birth control and women's healthcare. It's apparent that the Church is being led by those who crave power and money at all costs--"pharisees"! This is SO sad. This is no Church of mine or, I believe, of Jesus Christ's.
I'm sorry Michael, but true
I'm sorry Michael, but true practicing Catholics would not expect the Bishops to accept this mandate that goes against everything the Catholic Church has preached for thousands of years. Those working in Catholic institutions now accepted their positions knowing that any medicine that stops contraceptin would not be covered. They chose to work without this provision. If they are that upset about something they were well aware of when hired, they can always look for another job. Many others would be proud to take their places. By the way, health care coverage is not a right. Our rights were given by God, but only a true Catholic would understand that.
Mary Wells: One single
Mary Wells:
One single "correction". You said: "this mandate that goes against everything the Catholic Church has preached for thousands of years."
This mandate agaist contraception dates to Humanae Vitae, promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1965, against the opinion of his own advisors and of many Bishops at the time. He never wrote any other Encyclica. Ever since, the "sensus fidelium" of the people rejected it.
If you are talking about abortion, that is a totally different issue.
We have to be careful not to make declarations which are untrue.
Sorry, Mary opposition to
Sorry, Mary opposition to contraceptives HAS NOT been in the church's teaching and position for "thousands of years"! Thomas Aquinas took the position of Aristotle about the "quickening" of the fetus, or ensoulment, in that Thomas taught Catholic followers that the male fetus received the spirit of God on the 40th day after conception and the female fetus on the 90th day. This was in the 1200's. The Catholic church accepted this position until the late 1800, just 200 years ago, when the church decided to promote the immaculate conception of Mary, i.e. that Mary was "conceived" without "sin" - something that Christ, The Apostles, and early Christian disciples did not teach or promote! This was all put in place by the church so papal "infallibility" could be set in place to "promulgate" the Immaculate Conception. Many Christian faiths, like the Presbyterian, still follow the teachings of Thomas Aquinas in relation to the infusion of God's spirit into a fetus at a time the fetus can maintain itself outside the uterus. This means that contraception does not interfere with the spirit of God but provides parents with the opportunity to plan their pregnancies and births of their children. Please go to NCR pages and look for their study about the Catholic position in the Philippines causing poverty, starvation, etc.
"If they are that upset about
"If they are that upset about something they were well aware of when hired, they can always look for another job."
## In the current economic climate, it seems less than likely they will find one.
Also, Mary is very glib when
Also, Mary is very glib when it comes to jobs. People are between a rock and a hard place concerning jobs and making ends meet. But the Bishops not so much. Because we pay thier salaries, give them their mansions, make sure they have health care, pay for their 1st class tickets to Rome when they want to go and we pick up their tab for everything they do while having "important" meetings in Roma. Nice life they have isn't it?
And a little backgound on Humanae Vitae was not infalliable pronouncemet. The "infalliabilty teaching" was pronounced around 1870 when the Pope was losing the third war against Garibaldi who was trying to unite Italy into one country. The Pope was loosing his earthly kingdom, his papal states. And because the battle (literally) was coming very close to the Vatican, most of the Bishops got the heck out of there so the majority of bishops were not there to vote on this "infalliability" document. So the Pope at the time just had those few who were still in town and not literally running for their lives yet, vote on the Infalliability Document. It really should not have been voted on when most members of the voting pool were not present. As long as we do not educate ourselves as Catholics, they can do what ever they can and get away with.
I am not saying that they are completely bad people. And we lay people are not completely bad people. All of us are probably made up of healthy and good decisions and not so healthy and bad decision making. But we lay catholics need to grow up and take responsibility for our church and where it is headed....and it is headed back to the Middle Ages, folks.
Do not leave the church. Stand up and let your voice be heard! get rid of these excommunications they are handing out. When did Jesus excommunicate anyone? And let's tell Dolan to sit down and be quiet and listen.
"Do you believe that Obama is
"Do you believe that Obama is waging a war on religion?"
Abp Dolan's response: "I don’t want to believe that." (read "yep I do believe he is")
Another great leading question "When Obama announced the revision, the Catholic Health Association quickly supported it. Were you disappointed by that?"
I thought they taught about leading questions in Journalism 101
May be it was just a device to ingratiate the interviewer to the interviewee
Dolan and his brother
Dolan and his brother hierarchs have become nothing more than a very well funded "super-pac" [political action committee] that has unlimited access to literally $billions with which they will now throw around in hopes of exerting their political muscle in this very competitive election year.
The hierarchs ["The Vagina Ideologues"] have revealed themselves to be little more than the political operatives like the "Koch brothers" or Karl Rove. The hierarchs have hitched their political wagon to the Republican party and some of the most reactionary political ideologues in this country.
The hierarchs apparently have determined that they can play political mischief in the so-called swing states that have large Catholic populations. The only problem is that they forgot to check their math while Obama seems to know how the count: The majority of Catholics, especially Catholic women, resent the hierarchs intrusion into their personal decisions about health care - and President Obama in one fell swoop has knock the hierarchs off their game.
Allen gets deconstructed
Allen gets deconstructed wonderfully in your comment, Les.
Leading questions, indeed. Ingratiation with prelates is Allen's specialty. It just amazes me how many fail to see the pattern.
On issues other than abortion
On issues other than abortion and same-sex marriage, most Catholic bishops tend to make people like Gingrich and Santorum uncomfortable.
I have been reading all the
I have been reading all the messages from our conservative, republican, catholic bishops and they surely sound very nasty in referring to President Obama. I read the conservative, republican, catholic news sites and they sound very anti-Obama, in their words, the worst supporter of abortion to be in the White House. Archbishop Dolan can smile and say all he wants about wanting to work with the President to get a comprise, but the bottom line seems to be: our way or the highway. Actions are more important than words, lets see the conservative, republican, catholic bishops demonstrate by their actions and words that they do not hate President Obama.
This conservative,
This conservative, republican, anti-Obama Catholic bishop nonsense ought to motivate a lot of undecided Democrats and Independents that the President deserves their votes.
Way to go bishops! You just get right up there and lobby for Good Catholic Santorum in order to finish yourselves off in the eyes of a very large number of people.
Your nonsensical pontifications about this and in the future will continue to be ignored for ever-decreasing numbers of people who remain in this unholy unmotherly pretend church.
Call me the Disloyal Opposition and Proud of It!
I am glad to see this
I am glad to see this vigorous defense by the Bishops of "freedom of conscience." Now let's see the same fervor toward "freedom of conscience" in regard to the teachings of their colleauges, including the Bishop of Rome.
yeah like Dolan has any
yeah like Dolan has any credibility at all. And next up, his infallibility?
Dolan go back and ring gleefully the Wall Street gong while Jose and Maria have no home
When Dolan brings in Cardinal
When Dolan brings in Cardinal George of all bishops and states one of his opinions, Dolan shows his stripes. Cardinal George is the least open-minded of all the Cardinal's I have ever met or read of!
Can anyone explain to me the
Can anyone explain to me the logic of the following:
Bishops who knew that priests in their diocese were predators but solved the problem by moving them to another parish are not morally at fault and can remain in their jobs.
If I pay for health insurance (which covers a whole lot of good things for many, many people) but my dollar is in that pile that will pay for someone who (according to their own conscience) is seeking contraception, I am morally guilty by association.
Let's be honest here, there is no explanation. There is another agenda in play and it is not moral.
It's extreme chutzpah, like
It's extreme chutzpah, like the 10-year old boy who murders his parents, then throws himself on the judge's mercy because he is an orphan.
Here we have the bishops of the Roman church demonstrating beyond any doubt that they have neither morals nor conscience in the Catholic sex abuse crisis and coverup, then demanding that President Obama respect their "religious liberty" to follow the dictates of their ... conscience!
But let's look at this lightheartedly ... like, what will the six Catholic "supremes" make of their case?!
They're just ROMNEY-LOVERS,
They're just ROMNEY-LOVERS, that's all!
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1200596.htm
President Obama has
President Obama has established a pattern of caving in to pressure. He made a serious mistake of caving in to pressure and offering a compromise regarding contraception. He should have stuck with the original contraception mandate. By giving in to pressure and offering a compromise, he has just encouraged the Catholic bishops to renew their efforts to pressure him further.
I believe there is a
I believe there is a differing perspective to consider. That is, I think that Obama did the right thing in the "compromise" that along with acknowledging the concerns of the bishops and others who opposed the mandate for reproductive healthcare, he also politically enabled them to attack each other. So now we have the CHA in opposition to the USCCB, the super-Catholic republicans Santorum and Gingerich against other conservative non-Catholic republicans. To think that the President and his teams didn't know this was going to provoke a debate, and already had a resolution in mind, is less than informed. If the bishops press this issue too much further, they will create a public relations problem that once again raises their speaking for themselves and without the support of the Church faithful. While I have absolutely no trust in Dolan, as I see him as awfully disarming and manipulative, I hope he is able to settle this thing without the theatrics he loves and saving at least a little face in this quicksand of an issue.
You are most Christian in
You are most Christian in hoping that Bishop Dolan can save face in all of this. I am so fed up with the church, especially the heirarchy, that I hope Dolan comes out of this badly. I know---"Vengeance is mine, says the Lord." But, my patience is beyond retrieving. Everything over the last several years has just pushed me over the edge. My only hope and prayer is for the Holy Spirit to make a clean sweep of it all. That is my prayer!
I must admit there are times
I must admit there are times when I am right there with you on that edge, but am always able to pull myself back by remembering the best of the people I know in the Church. So, grab my hand and we can take the step back together. My concern isn't so much as to how it turns out for Cardinal Dolan, but how it turns out for US!
The Bishop’s confrontation
The Bishop’s confrontation with Obama over the HHS insurance guidelines for contraception have proven to be a great disappointment for me as a Catholic. My first disappointment was with the Obama administrations seemingly inept politics by not accepting broader exceptions at the start. However, Obama proved able to change his approach and provide for broader exceptions, with no reciprocation by the Bishops. The Bishops seem not to understand or recognize that Obama sincerely wants to find common ground between the need to provide equal protection and balance differing points of view with the specific religious concerns of the Bishops. I am particularly disappointed with the Bishops, more so than with Obama, because they fail to acknowledge Obamas efforts, they fail to put themselves in his shoes, and they have, I think and fear, wrongly cast the issue as an affront to religious liberty. I say this because there is no intent from the administration to infringe on religious liberty, but rather an attempt to find a reasonable balance. We need to remember that the eternal Truth of Catholicism, as with all Crhistianity, is Love and overcoming divisions between people, not coverage of contraception in health plans.
Hear! Hear! Amen. Well
Hear! Hear! Amen. Well said.
What Cardinal Dolan decides
What Cardinal Dolan decides is "acceptable" on the question of contraception certainly is not acceptable to the majority of Catholic women. The president represents all citizens, no matter their religious affiliation. And the iron fist of the Vatican "mafioso" can no longer be jammed down the throats of all Catholic women.
Men who wear skirts, dress up in medieval finery, and live like "princes" off the subsidies of the U.S. government, the Vatican, and their congregations are destined to fade into history. The sooner the better.
Most "social justice
Most "social justice Catholics" have now seen through the transparently cynical ploy by the Bishops to gin up a "wedge issue" of "religious liberty" as a way to get the "social justice Catholics" to abandon President Obama. Of course, the Bishops practically invented cynicism.
More sooner than later, let
More sooner than later, let us pray that Roman Catholic hierarchs be laughed out of the Oval Office, and told to go home to do "battle" with their pedophile clergy roaming the world, and their hierarchal colleagues who keep them in business in the name of Our Lord Jesus.
AW
It seems that the only
It seems that the only compromise that many bishops and their supporters have suggested is removing contraceptive coverage or else forcing women to buy a separate insurance at their own cost to pay for it or pay for it themselves.
The bishops have never suggested that the person's conscience makes the decision whether to use the coverage. While some have said that universal health care coverage would have prevented this, it really would not have done so. The bishops would have had the same argument...that tax dollars should not provide this coverage. I guess the Christian Scientists should take issue with health care coverage period and the Jehovah Witnesses should demand to have blood transfusions removed from their coverage.
How can I get out of paying taxes to support war, torture, the death penalty and stop funding through tax breaks (which ultimately shift costs to me) those organizations and companies which do not reflect my principals and beliefs?
Does the hierarchy really
Does the hierarchy really think we're that stupid? Bishops are not Obama haters? All I can say is if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck .... it's a DUCK!
Now I get it, Finally. From
Now I get it, Finally.
From this article: "Dolan spoke this morning in an exclusive interview with NCR from Rome . . ."
If NCR did not editorialize that the conscience of a bishop trumps the conscience of a woman, no more Dolan "exclusive" interviews for NCR.
John Allen is nauseating me
John Allen is nauseating me with his Dolan fixation. Maybe he really believes Dolan will be elected Pope and he has a shot at the Frederico Lombardi role.
This just demonstrates how
This just demonstrates how politically naive the members of the USCCB are. They asked for something, and the Administration gave them what they NEEDED, if not exactly what they would have liked. That is the way the political process works. Dolan should have responded graciously - it's a compromise, give and take - barter. IT'S POLITICS! The bishops need to learn that.
In political realism, they owe the Administration something for the give. If they don't realize that, and respond appropriately, next time they want something, the Administration will, rightly so, tell them to blow smoke.
And it proves that Dolan is a glad-handing, pretty face, with no substance. So he'll fit right in with the "college" he's about to join.
The issue here is that the
The issue here is that the bishops have lost their credibility through both their handling of sex abuse as well as their partisan positions. Funny you could not hear more than a whisper in opposition to the war with Iraq, but when a black Democrat steps into the White House they are loud and clear. I give no credence to Dolan or the other beaurocrats who played political games to get their promotions. Look to people who have not sold their souls to the RNC for the sake of abortion. Perhaps the bishops are not Obama haters; they are just faithful servants of the rich and powerful in the Republican party.
The Bishop's have been
The Bishop's have been critical on any and everything the President has tried to do. But not a word when the Republicans try to block everything that may help the poor and the middle class. They should sing the praise of the Obama administration and yet they can not. Why? It appears that only money can be a part of this story. How much does the Republican Party donate to the Church? I pray that this institution has not been bought and paid for by big money.
So Dolan wants "dialogue" and
So Dolan wants "dialogue" and " posture of openness." Will he offer the same to Catholic laity? What a hypocrite! The Pharisees live!
Dolan and his silk-clad buddies want to play "pelvic politics." And the Republicans are the only ones willing to play that game. The war on women has united the hierarchy and the GOP!
The bishops' view of contraception has been resoundingly rejected by the faithful. Now they are trying to enforce it by denying women access to contraception. And piously pretending that they are motivated only by morality!
Were they motivated by morality in the issue of child sexual abuse by clergy and bishops?
Archbishop Dolan's
Archbishop Dolan's protestation that the bishops do not hate President Obama rings hollow. Very hollow. Actions speak louder than words, and whatever their personal and collective intentions, the bishops have whipped up some Catholics into an ugly frenzy of hate that disgraces the gospel of Jesus. National Catholic Register's blogger Jimmy Akins has called Mr. Obama "evil"--not his actions, not his policies, but Barack Obama the human being. Fellow Catholic Kathleen Sibelius is mocked: As if they know the state of her soul, Catholic bloggers and those who write in their comboxes declare (as if they are some kind of magisterium unto themselves) that she is not Catholic, that she is "catholic" or "catholyc," all the while exhibiting great self-satisfaction with their attempt at wit. And for good measure, many of these same folks lump in fellow Catholic Nancy Pelosi, as if she personally wrote the regulation. John Zuhlsdorf has called--again--that Ms. Pelosi be publicly humiliated via canon 915 and refused communion. All of these folks are publicizing and promoting hate with the supposition that they are supporting the bishops, and I hold the bishops responsible for this. Their puerile objection to him (as sitting president) being invited to Notre Dame (who always invites the sitting president), their unsubstantiated and repeated claim that he is the "most pro-abortion president in history," indict them. Despite the fact that 28 states already require Catholic hospitals and universities to provide insurance that pays for contraception, the hysterical rhetoric of the episcopal letters read FROM PULPITS DURING MASS the last two weekends is whipping up hate, plain and simple.
I agree with your assessment,
I agree with your assessment, David. Despite his claims to the contrary, Timothy Dolan is a slippery politician and as crafty as any Wall Street banker with his machinations. His own behavior is the evidence, in spite of John's efforts to help the cardinal-designate generate yet another political smoke-screen to cover the ever-deepening hole he has dug for himself.
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After gaining control of USCCB leadership he and a small cohort of abrasive ultra-conservatives, have functioned within the larger group much the same as the Tea Party and Religious Right have within the GOP — dragging the whole group into extreme and unreasonable positions, and personally demonizing (as not Christian, not a "real" Catholic, etc.) anyone who disagrees with those positions or who honestly seeks fair compromise in our non-theocratic nation. Dolan reprehensibly implied that Sr. Keehan was 'on the take' with HHS because of her Christian efforts in behalf of health care delivery reform. Perched aloft his prelate bully pulpit he has indeed whipped his followers into a feeding frenzy of destructive culture war hatred under the guise of religion and his capital-T truth. He owns it, and at the Particular Judgment he will answer for it... as will we all 'for what we have done and failed to do'.
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No they're just good old
No they're just good old women haters and reject their ability to correctly form their conscious belief without relying on a pre-arranged and self-serving definition of "a correctly formed conscience.
I cringe when I hear
I cringe when I hear Cardinal-elect Dolan make these cooing noises towards Obama. Coo for Obama if your instincts say you must, Bishop Dolan, but do please remember Our Lord's admonition in Matthew 10:16 "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."
If you believe you must shake hands with the devil for appearance sake be sure to count your fingers afterwards.
Agree. Obama should be very
Agree. Obama should be very careful who he shakes hands with.
I don't believe anything
I don't believe anything Arch. Dolan says. If I start hearing this garbage at Church on Sunday, I will once again be forced into the wilderness as I was during the Bush-Cheney regime. I was fortunate to find a somewhat more progressive parish since that time, but I am waiting for yet another directive from our recently-installed, ultra- conservative archbishop Thomas Wenski. It would be nice to see these bishops get equally incensed with Wall Street, the GOP war on the poor and middle class, etc.... Only then will I think they aren't playing politics.
I hate to say it, but I think
I hate to say it, but I think the only way our bishops would get upset with Wall Street moguls or GOP politicians and operatives is if they were all women who all not so mysteriously had one or two kids.
I only have one question! In
I only have one question! In Europe all the countries have a national health systems. Does the Catholic Church especially in the "Catholic" countries get involved in contraceptive health care? I have not heard anything like what is going on in the states happening in the Canadian system. Why are our Bishops taking a this hard stand. Please let me know where the difference is?
Great question. I hope NCR
Great question. I hope NCR can do a follow-up story about the Europe and Canada practices and the positions of the Church.
Let's face it. Most of the
Let's face it. Most of the bishops in the US are very fixated on getting the next bigger pointy hat, elevated to the 32nd degree so they can vote for pope, and the special favors and priviliges that come with being Good Obedient Little Boyz in the eyes of the Biggest Kahuna in Rome. They are going to do anything that they think necessary to keep the Notice Me factor high in the eyes of their string pullers.
Evidently the European and Canadian bishops have more self-worth and don't need the constant approval of Daddy.
Some of them might even take this Christianity stuff seriously, too.
Do you believe that Obama is
Do you believe that Obama is waging a war on religion? Well, from the reaction of some of the right wing bishops, you could have fooled me.
So long as the bishops have
So long as the bishops have something to moralize about, they can keep the public from focusing on the real issues affecting Catholics and non-Catholics alike: poverty, disease, war, homelessness, the 1% (of which they are a part), and let's not forget pedophile priests and Cardinal Egan who just decided he shouldn't have apologized for the lives they destroyed. How do these men sleep at night???
I hope the bishops stand up
I hope the bishops stand up for more than the conscience rights of their own institutions. Every employer is being forced to pay for these practices. Anyone who has does not wish to be forced to cooperate in evil by paying for abortifacient drugs should have conscience protection. Of course, surgical abortion itself is being promoted by the state department around the world as a right, so soon it will be part of Obamacare. The administration is undermining freedom of religion by changing it to freedom of worship, which is what all totalitarian regimes allow.
26-28 states now require
26-28 states now require health insurance sold in their states to cover contraceptives. Almost every European nation includes contraceptives in their national health schemes; most include subsidies for women who cannot afford it. The requirement that contraceptives be included in health care payment schemes is not new here or in most countries in which the Catholic Church has parishes, hospitals, charities, universities.
Contraceptives are used by 98% of women of this country at some time during their child bearing years. Most polls say that somewhere between 80% and 98% of Catholic women use birth control. I have read that contraceptive use is almost as universal in Europe. There is less use of contraceptives in Latin America, Africa, and the Far East. However, as people become more educated and democracy is established more widely, the tendency is for more people to use contraceptives for the very good reason it allows them to plan their families, educate their children, and live longer, healthier, more fulfilling lives.
Democratic countries make laws and rules to provide what is most sought by members of that society. How else could government function to "secure the common good"? And, the "common good" includes access to birth control in the minds of most who are free to choose.
This is a false argument, a new made-up objection to government doing what government is supposed to do. It is not an objection the bishops even try in Europe any more because it has been throughly defeated there. I guess the bishops want to see if we will diminish the freedom of individuals in favor of establishing fiefdoms of Catholicism here since Europe won't do it anymore.
Do you believe that Obama is
Do you believe that Obama is waging a war on religion?
"I don't want to believe that."
Where have I heard similarly phrased answers, which stop short of a definite disavowal of an incendiary accusation against the president and leave just a little room for the charge to stick?
Here's Speaker of the House John Boehner when asked in an NBC-TV interview in January 2011 if he believed the president was born in the United States:
"The state of Hawaii has said that President Obama was born there. That's good enough for me."
The bishops had the moral and political high ground in the eyes of many people when this issue was cast as a matter of religious freedom and conscience. They risk losing it -- and have seen their support erode already -- if they are seen as in league with the president's political opponents.
A war against religion? A better answer would have been to begin by saying that is an extreme description and then go on to promote your opposing view. Reject the extremist rhetoric.
I find it frightening that
I find it frightening that the Catholic bishops are so hateful toward the president. This is unprecedented in my lifetime. The right-wing Catholic blogs (that the bishops use a surrogates) are so full of vitriol toward the president that I have stopped reading them. It is too upsetting. The hatred is only the first step before one person takes it too far and violence occurs. If this happens then the bishops much shoulder some of the responsibility.
They have no intention of turning down the rhetoric until they have a Republican theocracy installed.
vitriol....VITRIOL...what are
vitriol....VITRIOL...what are these comments if not VITRIOL! a lot of venom being spewed forth in these blog comments, and keep in mind, most of the readers of NCR and most of its bloggers are dyed in the wool liberals.
Yes, vitriol. Like the tone
Yes, vitriol. Like the tone of your comment. You made my point.
"I haven’t had the honor of a
"I haven’t had the honor of a conversation with her, though I have let her know of my disappointment in writing."
I'll bet he did. He just loves Sister Carol Keehan. I'll bet he put her in her place (in his opinion of what her place is). This is a power struggle and John Allen is not asking the tough questions.
Congratulations to Sister Keehan for moving things along and respecting the President.
Sorry I'm not convinced,
Sorry I'm not convinced, especially since the USCCB sounds more and more like a collection of Republican lapdogs, apologists, and idiologues. Nice try, Dolan: but nobody's buying it.
While the HHS regulations as
While the HHS regulations as promulgated were a political blunder by the administration, the bishops have crawled out on a limb that is not supported by good Catholic moral theology. Their "cooperation" with the evil of contraception is remote and material, not formal. It is coerced, but so are our taxes that support our going to wars and other evils coerced. We cannot simply stop cooperating unless we destroy our institutions or go to jail for non-participation.
Perhaps the government should explicitly include NFP as a contraceptive option.
And one wonders, given this brouhaha, how the European bishops whose national health care systems provide contraceptive service can ever square their consciences with such cooperation. Either they are lackeys of the government, fools, or hypcrites if the U.S. bishops are right.
So which is it? Are our bishops on a limb about to break under the weight of the intolerable or are other bishops failing to teach and do the truth?
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