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PDF versionApril may be cruel month for relations with traditionalists
by John L Allen Jr on Mar. 24, 2011
For anyone hoping that longstanding ruptures between Rome and the traditionalist wing of the Catholic church are on the brink of swift resolution, it may turn out that April is indeed the cruelest month.
Sometime in early April, two developments are set to come down the pike, each with implications for relations between the Vatican and so-called “traditionalists”, meaning Catholics attached to the old Latin Mass and who harbor deep reservations about the Second Vatican Council (1962-65).
First, the Vatican’s “Ecclesia Dei” Commission, responsible for relations with the traditionalists, will bring out an instruction concerning implementation of Pope Benedict XVI’s 2007 document Summorum Pontificum, which installed the older Mass as an “extraordinary form” of the Latin rite.
Second, what could be the final round of talks will take place between the Vatican and the Society of St. Pius X, the traditionalist body founded by the late French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, which broke with Rome in 1988.
As is often the case, both moves will probably be seen in the Vatican as important gestures of outreach, but among some traditionalists they’ll likely be taken as further confirmation that Rome can’t be trusted.
In some traditionalist circles, the impending instruction has generated alarm, with commentators suggesting that it could effectively undercut the prerogatives for celebration of the old Mass which Benedict XVI promised in his 2007 motu proprio. That would be in response, according to the speculation, to pressure from bishops around the world who’ve never been wild about the Latin Mass, and who haven’t exactly bent over backwards to make it more widely available.
Speaking on background, Vatican officials insist that’s not the case.
Instead, they say, the instruction will confirm that the moto proprio is now the universal law of the church, and insist that bishops apply it. Among other things, it will call for seminarians to be trained not just in Latin, but in the older rite itself, at least so they will know how to execute it faithfully and understand what’s being said.
The instruction will also confirm that the older Mass must be available wherever “groups of faithful” request it, without specifying how many people it takes to constitute a “group.”
The instruction will likewise confirm that the older liturgy is to be celebrated during Holy Week wherever there’s a “stable group” of faithful attached to it, as well as in religious orders which use the extraordinary rite.
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On the other hand, the instruction will probably not satisfy all traditionalist hopes. For example, it will probably not give a seminarian in a regular diocesan seminary the right to be ordained according to the pre-Vatican II ritual, in part because that ritual presumes ordination to “minor orders” and the sub-diaconate, which were suppressed under Pope Paul VI.
As far as the talks with the Society of St. Pius X go, signs suggest they may end with a whimper rather than a bang.
An ad-hoc Vatican group empanelled in 2009 to conduct the discussions is composed of five leading figures on the Roman scene:
- Italian Monsignor Guido Pozzo, secretary of the Ecclesia Dei Commission;
- Italian Jesuit Archbishop Luis Ladaria, secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith;
- German Jesuit Monsignor Karl Becker, a longtime adviser to the doctrinal congregation;
- Spanish Monsignor Fernando Ocáriz of Opus Dei, another consulter to the doctrinal congregation;
- Swiss Dominican Fr. Charles Morerod, rector of the Angelicum University, and also a consulter to the congregation.
For its part, the Society of St. Pius X put together a delegation led by Spanish Bishop Alfonso de Galarreta, one of the four prelates ordained by Lefebvre in 1988. Insiders say that the figures tapped by the society generally represent the more “hard-line” current in the traditionalist body, while the Vatican’s participants are theological conservatives inclined to meet the Lefebvrites halfway.
The talks have focused on four themes, which represent the core concerns for the traditionalists:
- Liturgy
- Ecclesiology, including ecumenism and inter-faith dialogue
- Religious freedom
- The magisterium of the Second Vatican Council (1962-65)
In each case, the process has been for a traditionalist participant to prepare a paper on the subject, and then a Vatican participant writes a response. (If time permits, one of the traditionalists may pen a response to the response). The two sides then get together for several hours of talks, with the most recent such get-together coming this past February.
Meetings are held in the offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome. Generally the Lefebvrites speak in French and the Vatican delegates in Italian, with simultaneous translation.
In a recent interview posted on the American web site of the Society of St. Pius X, the society’s superior, Bishop Bernard Fellay, announced that the talks are coming to an end without resolution, because, in Fellay’s view, Rome refuses to concede the “contradictions” between the eternal Catholic faith and the innovations introduced by Vatican II.
Fellay also said that two new stumbling blocks have emerged: Benedict XVI’s plan to host an inter-religious summit in Assisi this October, and the May 1 beatification of Pope John Paul II.
That interview seemed to seal the fate of the talks. One Vatican delegate has quietly spoken with American Cardinal William Levada, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, about whether the time may be approaching to pull the plug.
(For an instant in February, the traditionalists apparently thought that moment had already come. A meeting between the two sides was scheduled in the offices of the doctrinal congregation, in the same room where an unrelated gathering had taken place the day before. A card with Levada’s name was still at the head of the table. The prefect doesn’t normally take part in the talks with the traditionalists, so when they saw his name on the table, they reportedly wondered if he was coming to bring down the curtain. In fact, the meeting went ahead as usual.)
After the early April meeting, participants are expected to write papers summing up the results of the discussions and submit them to their superiors. In the present climate, most observers say, this may well be the end of the line, at least for now.
Depending on how things play out, both reaction to the instruction and the talks may therefore point to a common conclusion: Bridging the gap with the traditionalist world remains a long-term project.
And you think that place card
And you think that place card with Levada's name was left there by accident?
It could as easily have been left there on purpose, as a warning.
A warning? A warning for
A warning? A warning for what?!
The hardliners in the SSPX could give a care about Benedict, Levada, or modern Rome all of which they regard as apostates. In their hubris, they sit in judgment over the Romans.
Hopefully the more moderate Lefebvrists will find common ground for reconciliation...and soon!
"...more moderate
"...more moderate Lefebvrists..."
If you knew what you were talking about, you would not have posted that.
#1 - "more moderate" > no can do, Hon - you are either fully Catholic or nothing. Tat is indeed the issue, here.
#2 - Archbishop Lefebvre himself said he did not start his own church or splinter off; he did what he always did - he was praised for opening seminaries and training priests before VII, and condemned afterward. He specifically stated he does not have a group called, "The Lefebvres," as you said.
If any of "the more moderate" clergy goes over to the Conciliar Faux-Church, they will be absorbed by The FSSP or the novus ordo fraternity and be right back where Rome wants them.
Pray in Thanksgving the hardline SSPX holds the Church for you and the rest of us - they cannot cave back into error and heresy. I pray the conciliars cave to return to The True Church and teachings. There's plenty of room for them to return.
As a parishioner at an SSPX
As a parishioner at an SSPX Chapel let me say that there is no such thing as a "hardliner" or "moderate" member of the SSPX. There are only Catholics in the SSPX who stand by the unchanging teachings of the Catholic Church without compromise, as we will not compromise the faith, for such is death. We are no more hardline than Peter or Paul or St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas. We simply stand by the Truth. Call us whatever names or adjectives you can muster. It matters not. We remain, regardless, true to the Faith of all time. Amen!
You claim to belong to the
You claim to belong to the true Church, but if you have willingly broken communion with the bishop of Rome, you are not a Catholic! Remember Michael Caerularius and Martin Luther. They too claimed to be true to the Faith of all time, but like them you too have left the Church ("With this Church of Rome, all the churches, that is the faithful who are everywhere, must agree" St. Irenaeus wrote in Greek)
"Generally the Lefebvrites
"Generally the Lefebvrites speak in French and the Vatican delegates in Italian, with simultaneous translation."
Isn't Latin supposed to be the universal language of the Church?
Oui
Oui
Being the official language
Being the official language of the Church doesn't mean they all speak it fluently.
'Twould seem that even the Society doesn't use Latin outside of Mass.
Odd, that, considering their attitude toward the vernacular in the liturgy, but who knows?
It never was before Vatican
It never was before Vatican II and it isn't now. The Maronites used Syriac, the Melkites Greek, Ruthenians Slavonic etc.
If the only result of this
If the only result of this instruction is that men who are currently in the seminary will receive training in celebrating the Extraordinary Form, then a victory will have been won! God bless Pope Benedict XVI!
Those current seminarians
Those current seminarians would better be served by spending more time and effort with Sacred Scripture or homiletics.
There's time for both.
There's time for both. Studying the EF will inform their celebration of the 1970 Mass. In a real sense, studying the 1962 Mass is a study of holy Scripture, given the explicit references to and usages of the Bible in the '62. One of the worst aspects of the English translation of the '70 was to obscure the biblical foundation.
That is ridulous. One of the
That is ridulous. One of the biggest complaints about the pre-English was how little biblical reference there was in the Latin Mass. The reorganized and written readings become more prominent in the English.
Actually, Bob, he is
Actually, Bob, he is completely correct! The Novus Ordo has certainly obscured the scripture from which parts of the Mass are drawn in two ways: 1) The suppression of certain parts of the Mass (The last Gospel, the Introibo ad altare Dei, etc), and the obfuscation of certain biblical phrases, both in translations, and in the NO original. Now, there was perhaps less variability, but each TLM had a number of scriptural propers. I think if you have the opportunity to assist at an EF Mass, you will be pleasantly surprised by the copious quantities of scripture and scriptural references.
This line is interesting
This line is interesting article by Jorge Enrique Mugica, Legionaire, on his blog http://actualidadyanalisis.blogspot.com/2011/03/remnantonline-catolicos-...
Paulte could possibly bridge
Paulte could possibly bridge the gap between the two with a simple suggestion. The suggestion would be that Benedict call an extraordinary Synod to clarify Vatican II on all angles of contention between the Traditionalists & Rome. The main thing to clarify is the doctrinal status of Vatican II. After that you would take up issues like the nature of the Catholic Church, the Old Covenant with the Jews, ecumenism in general, ecumenism in particular, conscience, etc.
Vatican II was a pastoral & not a doctrinal council. It defined no new doctrine neither did it propose for belief any development of a doctrine. Vatican II must be seen in the light of tradition in everything it said. If there appears to be a difference between conciliar teaching & tradition then the prior teaching is still normative. Further, one can find no place in the conciliar documents where a prior teaching was called into question.
1) There is an exact equality between the Catholic Church & the Church of Christ.
2) The Old Covenant between God, the Father & the Jews has been fulfilled in Christ. There is no longer an on-going covenantal relationship between God, the Father & the Jews.
3) The only unity that can come about between Catholics & Protestants is for the Protestants to become Catholics. There is no middle ground here.
4) Ecumenism should be seen as an attempt to have cordial relations between all people who call themselves Christian & no more than that.
5) While it is true that an individual must follow his own conscience, this concept must be seen in light of what an individual may not do, rather than what he may do. In terms of the Church, no Catholic may invoke conscience in order to receive the sacraments of this Church while he is not in agreement with her teachings.
forgot one - 6) Collegiality
forgot one -
6) Collegiality - The Pope is the supreme ruler of the Church. While he can & really should canvass the bishops on various matters of goverance, the bishops as a collegial body can put no break on the power of the Pope.
and perhaps you meant, no
and perhaps you meant, no brake?
either way it is wrongful ecclesiology
Amen,Amen,Amen
Amen,Amen,Amen
These anti-semitic xenophobes
These anti-semitic xenophobes have been indulged long enough. They won't be satisfied until the French monarchy has been restored and all Masses are in Latin.
May the TRUE faith held up by
May the TRUE faith held up by the SSPX live on and grow stronger than ever! WE worship GOD not man. The Novus Ordo and Vatican II is doomed because it is Humanism. Have you never heard of St. Athanasius -- he too was perscuted excommunicated for upholding the truth! Of course now he is a great Saint and Doctor of the Church.
VIVA SSPX!!!!
SSPX are not anti-semitic
SSPX are not anti-semitic (only one bishop was--that does not speak for the entire group). Zenophobic? Absurd. A buzz word which means nothing. SSPX chapels and convents and seminaries are all over the world. They are booming. You get "real" Catholic ceremonies and traditions at the SSPX, not the watered down Novus Ordo Protestant-Catholic hybrid Liturgy, etc., you get in many Catholic parishes. The Novus Ordo Mass, with its altar girls, lack of communion rails, busy body lay ministers, awful hymns, and talky talky talky emphasis, is a far inferior Mass to the TLM, and ought to be sent out to pasteur. Thank God for SSPX.
JudeThom, so the Last Supper
JudeThom, so the Last Supper was said in Latin with the Tridentine rite and altar rails, or are you saying Jesus did it wrong? The SSPX represents less than one tenth of one percent of the Catholic Church. Yes they are anti-semitic and xenophobic.
No, we've all indulged people
No, we've all indulged people who throw the term anti-semite around like a grenade long enough.
I wish the Vatican would've
I wish the Vatican would've taken THIS MUCH interest in the now fatally flawed Missal translation!
unfortunately she did and now
unfortunately she did and now we have it
come to the Spanish Mass, the one in the poorest neighborhood, and encounter Christ incarnate
I can't imagine that anyone
I can't imagine that anyone ever seriously thought that there would or could be a reconcilation with the Lefrebvrites. The Pius X people are absolute fundamentalists, and a mentality of that sort, whether in politics or business or religion or in anything, is virtually invincible to any kind of nuance or flexibility, except as already pre-determined and defined by themselves. I suppose Rome had to make an effort, but does anyone truly, in his heart, expect a reunification?
Does Benedict have a clue as
Does Benedict have a clue as to the actual happenings of the local church? This man needs to get his head out of the sand. The newer priests can barely pray the current mass. Now they will have to learn an awkward version of english mass and the old mass in latin? Our liturgies will be more poorly planned than they have been. People are calling for better preaching by the millions. We are not calling for the old mass except for a small group that is dying off evey day. It's time for a revolution.
Do not be mistaken. Here in
Do not be mistaken. Here in Europe the seminaries of the traditonalist church groups are flowing over with young men wanting to become priests. At the same time for the conventional seminaries attached to the dioceses there is hardly any interest. Also in the traditional masses, they are usually full and in comparison to the conventional masses there are many young people attending. If there wasn't the obvious discrimination of the latin mass by the Modernist Bishops the demand would be even higher. That is the real revolution which the so called "Modernists" are trying to surpress.
Well, that's lovely. A bunch
Well, that's lovely. A bunch of new young priests, in cassocks I assume, serving a handful of traditionalists who cling to an ancient language that nobody, not even the traditionalists, actually speaks, faithful pew sitters (women with hair covered appropriately of course) with rosaries in hand, watching the priest's back, fiddling happily away in their midaevil ecclesial dreamland while the majority of the church gives up and walks away. But, that's what you want, right? You want everyone who doesn't choose to live in the middle ages all to give up and leave, n'est-ce pas? (Just threw that in since you are in Europe. But, maybe I picked the wrong language. Would Latin be better?) Maybe just stick with Pius X - you've created your own church already, complete with bishops (you could elect a Pope too, I suppose if you wanted) so everyone will be happy if you just leave them alone. Win, Win.
Comparing mass attendance at a handful of churches attended exclusively by "true believers" who will drive miles and miles for their beloved Latin to attendance at the hundreds or thousands of churches (in the USA, there are thousands) that serve the majority. Of course your pews are filled - but your comparison is apples and oranges. There has been no clamor for the Latin mass in America but my local parish (with American English mass, mostly contemporary music, sometimes even - GASP!- guitars) is standing room only for most masses - the church holds 700 seated and people stand in the back by the dozens at times as well, and has seven masses every weekend. It is overflowing with young families especially, and teenagers. The young adult singles don't live here in suburbia, so don't see too many of them. If they force-fed this congregation with Latin, they would simply go elsewhere - there are half-dozen Catholic churches within a 20 minute drive, after all. There are masses available in several parishes in the diocese in Latin for the few who truly want it, within a 30 minute drive or so for most. They don't have to suffer too much to get their Latin fix every Sunday.
P.S. Wasn't the absurd war against "modernism" (sensibly) dropped a few decades ago? What "modernist" heresies are you against? Democratic government? (Americanism?) Freedom of conscience? Of speech? Or maybe you oppose freedom of religion?
When you describe your local
When you describe your local parish as overflowing in Mass attendance, I assume you would have us believe that attendance is on the rise and that it is in-synchrony with the number of Baptisms occurring. When, in fact, the only probable reasons for such a flamboyant assessment are:
1. An increase in the local population density or Catholic demographics.
2. An increase in the parish closings for your diocese due to low attendance. 3. An increase in the parish closings for your diocese due to priest shortage.
Don't try to pull the wool over our eyes. There is no new "spring-time", the Body of Christ is in decay and this is the main concern of any traditionalist I have ever met. Every year during the Lenten season my Bishop demands a head-count so that he may use these statistics to schedule parishes for closure. His stated goal is to minimize the number of people who must drive more than 20mi. to attend a Mass. After that is no longer possible I suppose he will be forced to exempt certain individuals from their duty to attend mass on a weekly basis.
Au contraire. Ce sont les
Au contraire. Ce sont les modernistes qui sont on train de disparaitre.
You must be joking, right?
You must be joking, right? Have you ever actually been to an EF Mass? They're filled with young people. I suggest you do an age comparison between an EF Mass and a tambourine-waving puppet mass and rethink your statement.
"tambourine-waving puppet
"tambourine-waving puppet mass?"
good golly
when and where is this liturgy celebrated?
love to go!
too bad it's in Latin . . .
How disgustingly
How disgustingly disrespectful of the Holy Father to call for him to "remove his head from the sand". As for Latin and the Tridentine Mass I have all the Faith in the ability of our Priests to learn both. Every other major religion learns a sacral language and often have detailed rubrics and rituals. And Catholics had done the same until circa 1970. To say they can no longer do so would be to put them somehow below the ability to learn that is inherent in all people. What an insult. Kudos to every Priest who takes Latin, tries his best and learn the other form of our Roman Mass. Never doubt yourself because of clownish remarks or people who put down your potential.
Actually Jim its not the
Actually Jim its not the traditionalists who are dying off but the liberals. A revolution there will be but not quite the one you are think about.
Say what you will about the
Say what you will about the Society of Pius X, but perhaps we should all be grateful to them for showing church leaders, from Rome on down, what it is like to try to open a dialog when the other side has no interest in listening.
I wonder which side Pius IX would have been on. I think I can guess . . .
nstead, they say, the
nstead, they say, the instruction will confirm that the moto proprio is now the universal law of the church, and insist that bishops apply it. Among other things, it will call for seminarians to be trained not just in Latin, but in the older rite itself, at least so they will know how to execute it faithfully and understand what’s being said.
a lot in that sentence that furthers sustains the thought of "reforming the reform"....
It is interest to me that
It is interest to me that Vatican II is still in question, as is the call for a dead language and rites. Interesting that the Lefebvites speak in french to the roman officials. We are a church run a ground with our inability to see reality, and/or admit the truth; i.e. the sex abuse scandals that go on and on, to the point that most reasonable people of the church understand that we can't be governed or instructed only by celebite men, how act above and beyond the law of the land, of God, and the natural law.
As a redeemed people we are failing to express the compassion and inclusion of Jesus; all to busy with the club house rules and who can be the most conservative amoung us.
Maybe a reading of this Sunday's Gospel is called for, when Jesus asks the Samaritian woman for a drink, and in the interchange she identifies who he is and Jesus concurs. Talking to a woman? outside the group? Who else had he told he was the Messiah? And then he goes on to spent 2 day in her town, where many others came to beleive.
Has any of these rightous men ever sat on the ground at the well and asked for a drink of water? Has anyone ever left their precoius water jars to run to there town and say, "come look who I meet" He told me all about myself"
No I think not, these guys, on both sides are so insecure to see the people around them, or the value of those people, just their effort to get the ritual correct, @ lest as they see it!
Today is the anniversary of the assination of Oscar Romero, I man big enough to be a bishop, and the first bishop killed at the altar since Thomas Becket. These were man of the church, who belived in Christ, suffered and died. Worthy of the title, LEADERS!
These others should be given inner city parishes withot a car or driver, without some one to buy and cook there food,clean their room, apartment or home. They could learn to be good and faithful servant, instead of guys in red dresses with pink satin belts.
Jesus came for real people, shortly after Vatican II my grandmother visited with the parish priest and although she daily attended mass, she said she would be back until he did it in English, the language she understood. This was the oldest woman in the parish, and yes, the next Sunday we had mass in English.
Maybe we would be better served a few strong grandmothers.
first of all I'm sorry that
first of all I'm sorry that your mother was such a bad Catholic
secondly, A very strong link between the rupture effected by the council, the introduction of protestant like rites and the development of a homosexual clerical culture that in time gave way to the sexual crisis we suffer today as a church is suspected by me and many others in the Church.
Traditionalist ARE real people with both feet firmly set on the ground, we just have a different religion than protestanized-catholics and we just want to worship in peace.
Why are the "modern" types so
Why are the "modern" types so typically dismissive of their fellow, more traditional Catholics? Always with the negative speech - "Celibate Men" said in derision. "Dead Language" said in derision. "Righteous Men" said in derision. Nasty comments about "red dresses".
It sounds as if they don't like people who are not like them!
And then they talk about the compassion of Jesus, which they fail to reflect.
Why does the Latin Mass fill them with such fear and trembling?
The Latin Mass is to the
The Latin Mass is to the cafeteria catholic, as garlic is to a vampire.
And my Grandmother fell away
And my Grandmother fell away after the changes. And so did her children, and so did her grandchildren. Now 1, has come back. Right around 7/7/07. Thank you Holy Father for Summorum Pontificum.
It is interesting to me that
It is interesting to me that modern intellectuals, the same ones who fancy themselves so highly for having pressed the buttons on their cell-phones, think that by repeating the montra, "Latin is a dead language", they are making an argument against its liturgical worthiness. That it is a dead language is precisely the reason it is now the univesal language of the Church. The modern student of Latin still uses Cicero's letters as his model while the modern English student uses a contemporary source. Church documents are written in such a way so as to survive the millenia.
I don't know why everyone
I don't know why everyone insists on calling the St. Pius X priests traditionalists. They are fundamentalists in the" same ilk as fundamentalist Islam. They speak of contradictions between the innovations" of Vatican II and the "eternal Catholic faith."
I am not sure where these guys studied ecclesiology and theology but the purpose of Vatican II was not to make innovations to the body of faith. It was to correct mistakes, excesses and divergence from the practice of the faith. It was to return us to a Church that was more faithful to Christ's teaching.
Ah, I am sick to death with all the accomodations that are being made to these fundamentalists. The Church belongs to the people of God [all of them, whether they call themselves Catholic or not]. Not to some elite bunch of clerics who long for a time when the average person in the pew was ignorant and pliable and simply obeyed.
I don't think Abp. Lefebvre
I don't think Abp. Lefebvre ever cut anyone's head off in the name of Catholicism or called on his followers to strap bombs on their bodies and blow themselves up.
The Modernists are about as faithful to Christ as the priests who followed the French Revolutionaries and supported the Great Terror. The ignorance comes from the leftist pseudo-Catholics.
"The Church belongs to the
"The Church belongs to the people of God [all of them, whether they call themselves Catholic or not]."
Muddle-headed mush.
Interesting comments...you
Interesting comments...you are validating a lot of the FSSPX & other "traditionalist" claims by your comments. The Church did not (i.e. could not) recreate or redefine itself via Vatican Council II. Correct mistakes/excesses, etc., get real, what mistakes/excesses was VII called to reform? If I am not mistaken it was to 'open the Church' to the World...just writing that should be telling enough as to to what actually happened as a result.
I too am sick of the Accommodation that are being made...especially to the homosexual leaning part of the Church, in addition to those who promote that the dilution of the Faith (i.e. those who believe we all believe in the same God i.e. the Jews & Muslims believe in the same God...get real they do not even believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and therefore God Himself)....sick of the Church not leading on Properly Formation of Priest (e.g. Thomistic understanding of Theology & Philosophy)...
In my eyes you can go the way of the current Novus Ordoe, that is eventually you will all die off for proof of this take a look at the age of the average Religious and Priest that offers the abomination called the new "Mass".
Don't worry, because I will continue to pray for you, the Bishops & Pope Benedict, because in the end the only thing that will change this Mess will be through Her Immaculate Heart!
"The Church belongs to the
"The Church belongs to the people of God [all of them, whether they call themselves Catholic or not]"
Hmmm actually it does not! It belongs to Christ for the Church is His bride. We are all welcome to enter this mystical body through the sacrament of Baptism, but Christ guards her with a passion of a burning heart.
Let leave the dead to bury
Let leave the dead to bury the dead, move on with the Church of Vatican II, and ONLY allow liturgical prayer in the language of the people! Let the Leberxrites, go to play church with the likes of Ray Burke, and his other latin prelates in Rome.
Give the rest of us the option of a married clergy, a female clergy and an openly gay clergy.
May the people in the pews being lied to and deceived by our current leadership, (especially around sexual abuse-but God knows what else) assume a rightful place of leadership in the church, or let's leave the "old boys club" to enjoy themselves and remind them to turn off the lights as they leave the dictatorship has ended!
"Give the rest of us the
"Give the rest of us the option of a married clergy, etc."? You have that option right now. Simply start your own church. What's stopping you? Why would you remain in a church that is oppressing you and hurting your feelings? Do you not have the courage of your own convictions? Are you being held in the awful "dictatorship" against your will? Are you bound and tied up in the basement of the local cathedral? Are you an adult? Can you make your own choices? Seems to me you have the power to liberate yourself; what's stopping you?
"and ONLY allow liturgical
"and ONLY allow liturgical prayer in the language of the people!"
Freedom for me but not thee!
Exhibit A for the need to have Summorum clarified.
Really, I can't begin to fathom the allergy to the pre-'62 Church. I get that it was far (far!) from perfect, but a lot of older Catholics remind me of people who sneer at their small-town upbringing. It's not winsome.
You've had the option, for
You've had the option, for about 500 years, it's called Protestantism.
ONLY allow it in the language
ONLY allow it in the language of the people?
Why?
Don't you like "diversity"?
Would it kill anyone to have one mass a week in Latin?
Why not accomodate all? Why not be open to all? Why not be "welcoming" to all?
A true Catholic, faithful to
A true Catholic, faithful to the Magesterium would never even ask for such things. There are other denominational Churches all around that would welcome your thoughts. Please don't impose them on the rest of us or the Pope.
Bishops not bending over
Bishops not bending over backwards. I can't even get the Chancellery in San Antonio to return my emails about the Latin Mass.
Chancery
Chancery
With the revelation of
With the revelation of political influences on the rejection of the majority report of the birth control commission (http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/new-birth-control-commission-papers-re...,)as well as the deliberations in the Vatican Council, one has to wonder where politics ends and theology begins. The conservative reactions to Vatican II were quick in coming. "Fr. Gomar de Pauw, a professor of theology and academic dean at Mount Saint Mary's Major Seminary in Emmitsburg, Maryland, launched the Catholic Traditionalist Movement in 1965, resisting the changes promulgated by the Second Vatican Council." (Avery Cardinal Dulles, SJ, Patrick W. Carey, 2010, pg 189) This questioned the authority of councils and assured that a number of priests trained at Mt. St. Mary's would continue to see Ottaviani as the authority for their ecclesiology. Previous Councils were probably influenced by both internal and external politics.
The leadership of the Church must not be rejected lightly, but always be subject to the 'reception by the faithful.'
Why is it any worse, or at
Why is it any worse, or at least any different, to "see Ottaviani as the authority for ecclesiology" than it is to see Richard McBrien as the authority for ecclesiology? It's just a metter of taste, isn't it? If a person prefers Ottaviani over McBrien, who are you to judge? God made them that way. Would you judge a person for preferring strawberry ice-cream over chocolate? Why can't you accept diversity in the church? If a person's conscience directs them to prefer Ottaviani over McBrien, shouldn't you celebrate their choice rather than judge it? Why do reject the spirit of Vatican II?
Confused
Confused Ecclesiology?
"universal law of the church"? I doubt it. No Byzantine bishop is going to have anything to do with Latin Masses. The law only applies in the Roman patriarchate. The Curia doesn't get it.
Rome cannot get things straight, which is why ecumenism is so difficult. Admittedly, the traditionalists have their own problems, but Rome does not make things easy. Until we reform, and truly mean what we say, who would want to join up?
Let them depart with love.
Let them depart with love. Forcing them in any way will only cause ill will. The two stands are not reconcilable. There comes a time when the Church as a whole must be considered, and that time is upon us. There are greater issues at stake facing the Church.
unfortunately, ratzo, who
unfortunately, ratzo, who unjustly ejected without qualm our best and our brightest under wojo, inclduing his own professor Father Hans Kung, has received unquestioningly and unconditionally these fundamentalist, self-willed creeps back, and now has no card to play
what did he expect, murdering the lambs and then laying down with the wolves.
If the result in another step
If the result in another step backward, more and more Faithful will leave the Church and join intentional communities...!
Pax. Aristophilos
I bet not more than those
I bet not more than those that left or were pushed out by their own Priests and Bishops after the Novus Ordo was forced down their throats. And then lied to as they were told that the Tridentine Mass was abrogated. That was a flat out lie. Latin was banished in spite of the millions of faithful that could pray along with their Missals. Bishops and Priests simply threw out their own kind and opened the door to a different kind. It was the wholesale replacement of one group for another. Something is very wrong about that. Room for more should have been what happened, not the wholesale abandonment of millions of faithful Catholics who were told that what they did yesterday was no longer allowed or to be believed. I believe the Pope is correct when he said, "Never before in the history of the Church has this happened". That statement could be applied to many things and many parishes in the wake of the Vat II "changes".
On the contrary, Mr. Allen.
On the contrary, Mr. Allen. If the forthcoming instruction mandates that all seminarians be taught the Latin language (as it explicitly says in Canon 249 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law) and be trained in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, then this is one Traditionalist who will be shedding tears of joy.
Dear Latin Mass Lovers and
Dear Latin Mass Lovers and Vatican II Haters: You want the RC church back, you can have it. And by the way, don't forget to use my envelopes.
Question to anyone: If minor
Question to anyone: If minor orders are suppressed by Church law anyway, shall the faithful take seriously the ordination to minor orders of members of traditionalist orders or institutes mounted under the motu proprio, Ecclesia Dei?
I notice in my parish quite number of young men who think they are porters, lectors, etc. But are they really? Is it fair to them to pretend that they are?
Does anyone know?
Ladaria is not italian: he's
Ladaria is not italian: he's spanish...
Much ado about nothing! Who
Much ado about nothing! Who cares anymore...........
"If the only result of this
"If the only result of this instruction is that men who are currently in the seminary will receive training in celebrating the Extraordinary Form, then a victory will have been won! God bless Pope Benedict XVI!"
I quite agree. And if this is in fact the case, I hope that all those who are sympathetic to the old Mass, not just self-styled Tradtionalists, will be grateful and recognize the miracle that it truly is.
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