A letter to LGBT Catholics: It gets better

I think your comment about being willing to listen is so healthy. In our society of cell phones, so many don't want to listen but just to speak. I appreciate your openness. It gives me strength and courage to do the same.

Lawrence what planet are you living on. Hello! What she says does reflect vast majority of Catholics. As you said we can hope to have an informed conscience.

The sad thing is that people like Lawrence feel that they have THE answer to problems like gay rights. Perhaps if they would listen to people other than those in their own group they might actually find out what many Catholics believe about God's love for all of us (including gay people).

just wondering, Lawrence, if you would be able to sit down, in person, with the author of this article, and say exactly what you just wrote to her face.

It is illogical and wrong to connect her sexual orientation with the Women's Ordination Conference. What do you mean, "red flag"? Really? she is a lesbian and she is on the board of the WOC, so therefore, what?

The sad truth, to me, is that the Church has not kept up with the times.

The sad truth is also your generalization of the human body. If "God's plan is written on all of our bodies," then tell me God's plan for the person who does not fit neatly into your idea of the perfect human.

What are you afraid of? I mean this seriously. How does a homosexual person's lifestyle threaten your existence?

"The author clearly has another agenda besides tolerance for LGBTs. She's on the Women’s Ordination Conference board of directors! Red flag?"

Here's the red flag for me, Lawrence: it's that you could read this moving testimony, which asks bloggers to stop engaging in character assassination and bullying tactics, and reduce what Kate Childs-Graham says to "another agenda."

That IS a character attack. It implies that she's being duplicitous. It suggests that you own the "real" Catholic agenda and she's an impostor.

You didn't hear Kate Childs-Graham, Lawrence. She writes, "The impact of bullying is also felt from words of hate and judgment seen online. I challenge you to find creative ways to critique and debate ideas without attacking the character, dignity or values of any person."

As an example of someone who did hear, get what she was saying, and still disagrees respectfully, you may want to read what RobertG says above. He notes that he doesn't agree with Ms. Childs-Graham, but is willing to listen and learn.

It's time that Catholics defending what they imagine is the only possible teaching about these issues (a resounding no) stop attacking their gay brothers and sisters with this dismissive talk about "agendas." And start listening.

Let me guess...you are a priest or ordained deacon. You generally refer to the Church's teachings or Theology of the Body but do not give at least one example or citation (let alone any scripture reference) that says LGBT Catholics are to be treated differently than hetrosexual Catholics, or lesser Catholics. But the Catholic Church is not alone. Other denominations have similar exclusionary views.

I always wonder how you, other Catholics, many members of the clergy, and specially the Hierarchy, define "informed conscience".
It seems there is not a clear definition applied to everybody and understood by all. I've heard some very interesting explanations, which can be summed up in a few words: accept (and obey) all what the Church teaches, and then you will have an informed conscience. (Where is the concept of the "primacy of the personal conscience", recognized by Vatican II documents?)
Cultural differentiation, and history of the world, and of the institutional Church, as well as new understanding of the diversity among people, as well as the developments in all fields of knowledge look like of no importance. What a loss!

poor, Lawrence.
How can you live every day with so much hate in your heart?
The fact that you think this hate is sanctioned by Church teaching is sad.... because it seems to be the case that official church teaching seems to be on your side. However, it is certainly NOT truth. (full stop)
Not once did you mention the Gospel. Only JPII's opinion.
That is the problem with people like you... you have replaced Jesus with the pope. How very sad.

According to a recent Pew survey, white Catholics are now more supportive of marriage equality. See http://pewforum.org/Gay-Marriage-and-Homosexuality/Support-For-Same-Sex-...
This trend will only continue as more young people enter adulthood and with the death of members of the older generation.
Change is coming, praise God!

Lawrence,

The Catholic Church is not the pope or the bishops. They are a miniscule part of the church. Nevertheless to say they do not bully is unbelievable.

When Anita Bryant led her campaign to get an ordinance protecting jobs and housing and access to public accommodations for gay people overthrown in Dade County, the Catholic League offered her financial support and had a cartoon indicating that gay men molested children in their classrooms. Editorials in Catholic newspapers opposed allowing gay people to teach, they opposed ordinances giving basic civil protections to gay people saying society had the right to circumscribe occupations open to them. The bishop of Wichita led a similar campaign in his diocese forbidding his priests to say anything other than what he said in his "pastoral" letter. For years the cardinal archbishops of New York City led campaigns to prevent a similar ordinance from being adopted in New York City. They were only several of the bishops who led similar campaigns.

Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in a document promulgated by John Paul II that gay sexual relationships are self indulgent. This current pope has declared that gay couples do emotional violence to the children they raise. He has talked of same sex marriage as though it is a grave threat to civilization. None of the scientific evidence and none of the major organizations of mental health or pediatric health professionals agrees with the these statements of John Paul II or Benedict XI. These two popes have been very intelligent men, but they have made statements at odds with scientific research and reality.

The pope and his bishops have led campaigns throughout the world condemning civil marriages or civil unions of any kind for same sex couples. This is civil relationships we are talking about, not Catholic religious celebrations of matrimony.

Bishops in Maine and California and Minnesota have led campaigns and bishops around the country have donated money to campaigns condemning civil marriages for same sex couples and attempting to have civil marriages ruled null and void. These campaigns have perpetrated lies about gay people being a danger to children. What do you think gay children and youths think when they are confronted with these campaigns from pulpits during Mass? I myself have heard one priest say it was homosexuality that caused Rome to fall and another priest liken gay men and lesbians to rats.

It was somewhat understandable the things that were said and done thirty years ago, but not today. Too much is known about the selflessness of gay men who cared for their partners as they died of AIDS, or of the gay and lesbian people and their friends and families who set up organizations to provide care for people with AIDS when the churches were too busy condemning gay people to care, or of the lesbian and gay couples who have adopted and cared for children whom no one else wanted. But the bishops of several dioceses have closed their adoption agencies rather than let children be adopted by loving gay couples.

I have studied what the bishops have said and why. And I have also read studies done by psychologists and psychiatrists, by researchers of human sexuality. And I have known too many real, loving gay and lesbian couples to accept what these bishops are saying. Much more is known today about gay relationships than was known 30 years ago, but the bishops are for some reason ignorant of or unwilling to learn from that knowledge.

When the federal judge in San Francisco recently overturned Proposition 8, he had some very strong statements to say about the arguments of those in favor of Proposition 8. As I read texts of the trial as it was going on, it became apparent that the defenders of the proposition had no arguments to support their defense other than the arguments of religious beliefs. They had no tested scientific evidence to support their arguments. They had to admit that gay couples and their children would be happier and would benefit from marriage equality. They had no evidence from social science to defend their arguments. When the arguments made by the proponents (and remember the bishops of California were major financial and verbal supporters of the proposition) had to be defended under oath, they proved to be worthless. You can lie in television ads and in pulpits, but you cannot get away with lying in court under oath.

The hope for gay and lesbian and transgender youths in the Catholic Church comes not from the bishops or the pope who continue to assert things about gay people that are quite untrue, it comes from the parents and the teachers, the brothers and sisters, the uncles and aunts and friends and partners who know the truth from their own lives and the lives of those they love.

The bishops continue to bully with their pastoral letters, with the statements from their pulpits, from the DVDs that they send into the homes of their gay children and youths. But they are out of touch with reality. Truth comes not from some old beliefs and philosophical arguments and false science. Truth comes from real people and real lives and real scientific research.

So there definitely is hope. The bishops are losing this argument just as they long ago lost their argument when it came to their condemnations of artificial birth control. They are losing because is is not strong assertions and dogmas that make people free, it is the truth that makes people free. They are losing because the very religious doctrines that they use to condemn gay people and to take rights away from gay people are being shown to be false doctrines, just as the doctrines justifying slavery and second class citizenship for women have been shown to be false. Moral doctrines that are based on false beliefs are themselves false, no matter how strongly one may hold them to be true.

This reply

This reply is a shame. It is typical of the closed mind of the Church and its more threatened members. I am a 65 year old hetrosexual Catholic who would not be more pleased if the Church openly supported Gays and Lesbians, ordained woman, recieved married priests and their families, and encouraged stem cell research. Anything less anchors us to the Flat Earth Society and continues the Churchs role as Primo Bully.

you reply to the article is proof of bullying.

Probably was not the best choice for Lawrence to express his views concerning this article. I'm sure that most of you pick up on the spirit of articles and you can sense what kind of discussion is welcome. The author's sentiment and concern for those who are bullied, in this case especially LGBT, is informed and heartfelt; she is to be commended. My daughter's very best friend for the past 8 years is bisexual. We have had neighbors who are LGBT and we have interacted socially as with all our neighbors. They are neighbors in the full sense of the word. Do I agree with their lifestyle? Absolutely not. Do I agree with "The Theology of the Body"? I have read it and I totally embrace it. I don't believe our society is heading in the right direction to make new laws which embrace homosexuality. Do I fear or hate those who are LGBT? No. Is the author correct about the heinous behavior of bullying those who are LGBT? Absolutely. Do I have all the answers? No.

The VENERABLE John Paul II? Since when?

I agree with you on most points, Lawrence. I have many gay friends and acquaintances woven throughout my life. I strive (though sometimes fail, as we all do) to treat all my friends as equals and love them as Christ calls us to. As such, I am in agreement with the author that no one should be bullied, called names, or be the target of hate for any reason. Contrary to popular belief, however, it is possible to be welcoming and loving to all people while still standing firm in one’s beliefs. Jesus exemplified this during his life.

Like you, I agree that statements such as "the teachings of the church hierarchy on homosexuality do not reflect the values and beliefs of the vast majority of Catholics" are simply reflective of cultural relativism, and therefore are not overly persuasive. The same statement could be used in conjunction with premarital sex or abortion, which demonstrates that being in the majority of a viewpoint does not, by default, make a viewpoint correct. The Roman Catholic faith has not remained the institute it is today by bending with prevailing viewpoints to "keep up with the times", as one person wrote.

I respect the opinion of the author and and hope she, and others reading this, can respect mine. With regards to bullying, and the safety and well being of all people, gay and straight, I hope it does get better. God Bless.

Another red flag!!!!

Very sinister that Kate has views on other topics somewhat connected with sexuality. Goodness, that means she's not just a one-issue bigot.

I surmise that some of the "gentlemen" on the vocation promo and selection boards are maybe honest to God gays? What extra "agenda" does that give them? Maybe they're honest to God straight? What about their agenda? And tell me what the bisexual, asexual and the ambivalent alternatively sexualized are secretly campaigning for in their other waking hours?

I'll tell you in plain terms that the bunch who passed my present pp (ordained 6 years, now aged 40) accepted an ambitious young fellow of considerable intelligence and surpassing arrogance who has renounced personal thought in favor of being a total company man, striving to be even more Catholic than the Pope. He's making a lot of us very unhappy.

God bless you, Kate. Keep on growing.

The movement to reinstall Proposition 8 (banning marriage in California) was funded primarily by the Mormons and the Catholic Church via the Knights of Columbus. This should be viewed as a dangerous marriage of church and state, and even a modern version of the Inquisition as far as I'm concerned. The Catholic Church must embrace positive social change as it has done many times in the past, or risk losing a good portion of its followers in the coming decades. The lady who wrote this article and the kind folks here that support her must be the voice for the future, if there is to be one.

Lawrence, I share your view that Theology of the Body. In fact, I agree with your entire post.

However, I must say you're wasting your time here. I just scanned the responses to your post, and while you succeeded in hitting such a nerve that the nasty replies are considerable, they consist of the same boiler-plate trotted out every time a real Catholic reveals again the true teachings of the Church. This is a crowd which repeatedly draws from the same menu of stock answers and criticisms to justify the perceived right of the "people of God" to draft doctrine and dogma.

My favorite over-worn play is the suggestion that Catholic teachings so many of us have tried to present here are but only one form of multiple versions of Catholicism one may select according to "conscience." My visits here are not complete until I see that particularly prideful assertion made in the combox by one of the party faithful.

Let'em go, Lawrence. They've made their bed and they obviously wish to sleep in it. I wish them all a nice, long undisturbed sleep, too. The only thing I'll miss once all the gray-haired Vat II babies die off is that we'll lose the comic relief once enjoyed by coming here to witness/provoke their collective use of the same old tired arguments. We've seen them time and again; they rely on them to inveigh against every instance of ecclesial authority levied against their modernistic innovative theology and practice. They can't abide real authority, and know nothing first-hand about obedience (especially that "blind" obedience in which they will never submit and...what's that last word I never see portrayed here? Oh, yes: humility).

All fun aside, you and I can have a much greater impact on defending and advancing true Church teachings by working with the majority of Catholics who don't show up here. True enough, they don't know much about their own faith but they also haven't been contaminated by the progressive dissembling of the post Vat II generation. Most of them are not hanging out here, judging from this combox community. In fact, it's hard to find that group on the Catholic Internet at all, but I CAN find them in my own parish. They are easily distinguishable from the vocally loud but pretty small progressive minority that likes to think they still run things.

Unfortunately for them the tide is turning. One of our pastoral associates, a lesbian, has departed to become an Episcopal "priest" (which she cannot be, no matter who "ordains" her). Even better, many other progressives in the parish council have left because they don't like the new pastor - who is not as liberal as they feel they deserve, although I think he is. Good move for us: all those departures shifted the power equation and we are now busy cleaning up the mess they left behind.

Lawrence, the cracks are in the wall and they are ever-widening with Benedict XVI appointing 24 of HIS chosen new Cardinals, so I urge you and other Catholics who know there's only ONE Magisterium (and only ONE version of its teachings) to fill the void where you find it in your own communities. Coming here is like shooting fish in a barrel, except this crowd is so obtuse within their heterodoxy they can't even see when they've been shut down. Instead, they act like piranha in a vicious frenzy of attack (a good example of the collective mentality, applied). They apparently believe their own rhetoric, so it's difficult to have fun at their expense beyond waching that display.

If you think about it, the most effective tactic we could take here, at C-weal, and at America is to ignore these rags and not post since we're taking back the Church anyway. The result will be this combox is revealed as the echo chamber it is. Let them sing to each other until the boredom sets in, and eventually the number of their own posts would dwindle to just the initial flurry of self-congratulatory commentaries after each new article saluting their own personal dogma.

Overall, Lawrence, you did a fine job and I'm proud of your effectiveness as a succinct but solid Catholic "hate-monger." You obviously have a solid grasp of the Church but your talents are simply wasted here.

Let's blow this pop-stand.

Sorry....a bigot is a bigot and the worst type is the type that uses GOD as their logic to promote discrimination and hatred- that's right hatred. You can call it by any other flowery description, but the core is if you disagree with Rome, then you are out of the Catholic church. Thank God I found an accepting INDEPENDENT Catholic community that has used the brains that God gave us to live as Christ would have us live. I am sure there were gays in his lifetime and I don;t see anywhere in scripture where Jesus cast them out ( as the Magesterium or teaching authority of Rome would do and has done in many instances in today's Church culture)
As a former religious in the Roman Catholic Church, I could not sit back and allow my conscience to be comfortable with the bigotry and discriminatory practices of Rome.
That's OK though- the Roman Church will continue to lose membership not just from gays but women in general as they dig their heels in to back their policies of exclusion.
I do pray very hard for the Church that someday the Holy Spirit will shine on those responsible for some of their "teaching", as well as for some of her staunch followers and truly open their hearts and see the truth.

Thank you, NCR and Kate, for your courage and generosity in speaking Christ's love to Catholic GLBTQ people. Although I am married and a mother of grown children, my life has been blessed in knowing several people who have had struggles similar to Kate's. Some of them are longtime friends, a precious few are relatives of mine. A few dear friends have been brave enough and trusted me enough to tell me about their sexual inclination. My love and respect for each of them hasn't wavered, only my concern for the young who are still struggling. I celebrate with those who have found a loving partner and am sorry for them there is no way to legally or sacramentally celebrate their bond. Each of them is created and loved by God!

Abe,
Sorry you departed from a school that apparently needs you. "Illegitimati non carborundi" or something like that.
JR

I love your statement about everyone feeling safe. It is perfectly concise and powerful. It will be posted on my classroom wall first thing Monday morning. Thanks.

The Catholic Church condemns bullying of homosexuals. Pope Benedict XVI wrote the following when he was Cardinal Ratzinger:"It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected."(Letter on Pastoral care of Homosexual Persons, 1986).

This does not sound like someone who "teaches disrespect". Jesus loves all sinners, but like the adulterous woman, he tells us to "go and sin no more"(John 8:11). The Catholic Church tells homosexuals, and likewise heterosexuals, to enact the will of God in their life and to bring their difficulties to the Cross of Christ.

What a pathetic statement. However, that's the only accurate statement you made, and that by accident. The Theology of the Body is not the Theology of the New Testament - it is the Theology of the Old AND New Testaments.

If you knew anything at all about the Theology of the Body (beyond the distortions printed last month by an imitation theologian/psych professor) you might be able to actually say SOMETHING substantive about it that illustrates your understanding. Instead, you paint with a broad brush in your dismissal of the Truth and say absolutely NOTHING of consequence, which reveals your lack of mastery of the subject. You can't refute John Paul II by avoiding specifics.

Moreover, where do you get the notion the Church is solely a New Testament church? Besides outright heresy, that statement is just plain silly (actually, it's worse than that but I want to get past the moderator). You do not have the authority to dump the Old Testament just becasue it's inconvenient. The two texts are interrelated, with the New grounded thoroughly in the Old.

Furthermore, you go on to make hash of the New Testament you purport to cite by completely distorting Scripture to suit your social agenda. Jesus simply did NOT authorize ANY of what you attribute to him regarding women or homosexuals. To say so reveals you are not truly Catholic, anymore than my joining the Democratic Party would make me a progressive.

Unlike you and your cronies, John Paul II completely understands the Vocation and Dignity of Woman. If you had the courage to open your eyes you'd see the Catholic women who are electrified by the Pope's vision because they see it with their hearts. Obviously, refuting John Paul II on that document is beyond your ken as well.

Finally, you - and your progressive pseudo-Catholic friends who inhabit this combox - demonstrate by your comments that for all your invocations of the "priesthood" of the people you folks just can't grasp there is NO priesthood without sacrifice. This has been true from the very beginning of the priesthood but by dismissing the Old Testament and by your distorted obsession with the Mass as "meal" rather than sacrifice you folks wouldn't know that, would you?

Or perhaps you just don't WANT to know it. It's so hard to understand when you're not really Catholic.

I'd say more but it would be lost on you.

I am glad it does get better. I am glad you have someone special to share your life with. Gay and lesbian rights are something I feel strongly about. I believe things are changing. I want you to have the same rights and acceptance my husband and I do. You are indeed a child of God, made and loved by God just the way you are. Take care.

Hey Anonymous: Please come back. You may have to shop around a little but a lot of us stright Catholics have had to as well. Keep in mind that the Talaban Catholics are very small minority within our faith.

How about some transforming grace of Christ to look at what God created and bless it, not say because someone is different from you they are disordered and a sinner. Where did I read something like "Let the one without sin cast the first stone."?

Dear Anonymous of the rosary,
Kate has introduced herself and I now have a real person to relate to and to identify with as fully human whereas you "living" the so called "truth" do not even have the courage to share your name! Is that what your understanding of a loving Creator amounts to? How very impoverished and I believe misguided. I will pray today that God's grace will gift you with the insight and courage to move beyond pious platitudes and to know yourself and others as loved and precious--nothing conditional applies except to recognise that all others in their individuality are included in that great and amazing blessing. We are all loved in our individuality not in our conformity to ignorant bullying of the heart and mind which has passed for to long as sacred teaching. As your last sentence confirms "We all need the transforming grace of Christ".

I encourage parents of children living with same sex attraction to connect with EnCourage, to find teaching that is faithful to the teachings of God, and the Catholic Church. It is only the truth that will set any of us free, including our parents. Fortunate Families is directly counter to the Church's teaching on sexuality, and it is a shame that people are encouraging others to visit this website.

http://couragerc.net/Encourage.html

My parish (St Francis Xavier in NYC) has had prayers of the faithful and bulletin essays about it. Members of our church have also participated in local prayer services and rallies concerning this issue. I'm honored to be a part of such a great parish!

Unfortunately, I have not heard one single word from Rome or the Local Catholic Church condeming Bullying at Schools and Universities of GLBT or perceived GLBT youth. Well watch me.....I am getting a T - Shirt printed with the words, "I support GLBT youth and persons" and "I am a happy Lesbian" And I am wearing that to Mass...as I walk up to receive communion no less. Some folks may decide they wish to chat with me. Then they will get as ear full from a former Nun no less. Who is well educated in Philosophy, Theology and has my Masters in Social Work as well. Thank you Kate for your courage. I too hang in as a nun ... a lesbian nun who kept her vows but did consider suicide myself out of guilt. Thank goodness I got the help and left the convent in peace and great freedom. And all my former nun friends remain my friends to this day and we all get together, most of us have left a few of us never married, some married and a few of us are lesbians. But we all love and support one another in Christ...and there has always been warm and loving mutual acceptance of one another. So young folks, DO hang in there.........LIFE IS SO WONDERFUL TO TOSS IT AWAY because of bigots. YOU are going to have it much easier in your lifetime than us 60+'s yr. olds did...but believe ME LIFE WILL BE WONDERFUL.....do NOT allow the bigots to overwhelm you in any way. Sincerely, and with love, Gardy

Nope - Been loking and so far no bishop has spoken up. I hope and expect lots of priests have in homolies, but I can't seem to find where any of our shepards have made a statement. Would love to hear that some did. Keep in mind that about a third of the U.S bishops attacked Fr. Jenkins for inviting the President, TWO defended him and the rest were silent. Not a very brave bunch I'm afraid.

Father
With all due respect, what has what the "Church teaches" have to do with the way God created some of us. If the Church teaches that diversity is a sin and somehow outside of God's intention then that teaching is a fabrication of man or more specifically Rome and not one that found its source in inspiration.
You have been tricked, the hook is in your mouth and you are being pulled around by the great puppet master in the Vatican.

With all due respect to Father Vicente,
That you would even equate a homosexual to an adulterer only highlights Kate's poignant point.

It's too bad that Jesus didn't spare the life of a homosexual woman caught in the act of being a homosexual and tell her to 'go and sin no more'. It's too bad that Jesus didn't say anything on the subject of homosexuality at all. If he did then we wouldn't be having this debate. However, seeing as how Jesus never addressed the issue and since truly NOTHING in scripture addresses the modern psychological understanding of homosexuality, I guess we will have to listen to the HOLY SPIRIT on this one.

The Holy Spirit tells me that I was created in the image and likeness of God. The Holy Spirit informs me that God create ALL OF ME... not just my body- my genitals, but my heart and my soul. My heart and my soul tell me that I'm gay. Sexual orientation is deeper than the kind of carnal desire that leads one to be labeled an "adulterer". It's more complex and nuanced and (in my opinion) beautiful.

We, the gay children of The Church, the children you taught and who love you, we come to you with a message from the Holy Spirit...We are called into full communion within The Church. We don't expect to move mountains within our lifetime, but we will bear witness to this generation and the generation after us. We will continue to be an example of selfless loving, of compassion and of peace until we break down the walls of fear and bigotry you have cleverly disguised as morality.

That is how faith moves mountains.

Prayers,
Dan Marshall

Dear Don:
We certainly need to pray for the many narrow minded people such as yourself who can only bring harm when pretending to minister. All Kate is doing is fulfilling her life calling. I am not LGBT but that is simply because heterosexual is how God made me. People born LGBT do not choose to be that way. Who would choose a life of bullying and persecution? Kate never says that acceptance of her sexuality means a life of promiscuity yet you imply that it is the case and it is inherently evil. The narrow and bigoted teachings of the Catholic Church constantly let people down and are extremely unchristian.

Thank you Father for pointing out that the woman in the Bible should change her way of living.
Most people think nothing of people living together before marriage, however, this is not acceptable in the Catholic Church.
We must look at the whole picture and accept that the Church doesn't condemn the people, it condemns the immoral acts we all commit.
People must be compassionate towards everyone. However, if asked, they should reveal what the Catholic Church teaches and reason with these people who are hurt, that they understand and love them, but NOT the sins committed by ALL humans whatever the sin might be up to and including homosexual acts, etc.

I'm angry......I'll put it very simply..... what the "official teaching" says in regards to LGBT brothers and sisters being "disordered" and their love being "instrisically evil" is WRONG.

People! Please!! Let's keep this real??

Why do you need to quote Dan Brown (good grief!!) when we have a perfectly good source from which to quote?

"Love one another as I have loved you" (Jn 13:34)

Last time I looked these were words spoken by some guy named Jesus, who had this crazy idea about acceptance?