Ireland, the Vatican and clerical narcissism

So sad, so true.

Self protection for itself seems to be so defeating when I veer that way. That could be either realized or not. Only when I can see myself more clearly am I acting more like who I hopefully might be. So it must be with groups, institutions, and yes - the Church.

True to narcissistic behavior the Vatican pulled the Papal Nuncio to Ireland and likely he has gone on vacation too. It will be interesting to see if the Irish People boycot the Eucharistic Congress set for 2012. It would be appropriate.

Please, have a look at the column of your coleague Mr. John Allen, and you'll see how he is worried by the Popes migraine, during his holydays at CastelGandolfo. Don't you think it is something to be worried about?

The Vatican recalled its nuncio last week in order to prepare its response. How do you know they're not doing that at this very minute? What are your sources to support your allegations? You seem to think we still live in a world where everyone has to gather around a table in order to work on a project. It took the Irish government years to publish their report and no one accused them of narcissism. Magee screwed up royally by not paying attention to reports of abuse; now you want the Vatican to respond hastily? And please don't give the good Prime Minister too much credit for taking a whack at the Vatican -- a political gesture designed to win votes, not to protect children. P.S. I lived next to an upscale golf course for many years, in an apartment I rented for $315 mo.

I am an African, a Nigerian to be precise. We were evangelised by the irish priests. I have a question for critics. Is the church responsible for demographic suicide in Europe and America?is the church resposible for gay marriages in europe and america? Is the church responsible for divorce and decline in family life? The press call it freedom. If we challenge the world the way we challenge the church, the issue of divorce, gay marriage, etc could have been a thing of the past.

"Catholics are leaving the church in droves. It is not a pretty sight."

Maybe not a pretty sight, Ms. Zagano, but I suspect most hierarchs are breathing a big sigh of relief at getting rid of the troublemakers. We don't need more trouble in the family. Keep The Bossman contented. Anything that helps maintain peace in the family is welcome.

There's likely enough money in episcopal coffers --- if prudently managed --- to keep our hierarchs comfy-comfy now and for years to come.

Why would a Catholic praise a man who wants to imprison priests who fail to break the seal of the confessional? Answer, no true Catholic would! And this clown of a PM did not give his grandstanding speech in front of the whole Parliament. Now everyone knows the name of the Irish PM when prior to this no one outside Ireland & probably few within Ireland did! Edna Kanney!

So what do you propose to do about "the very large elephant beneath the Catholic carpet"....
besides leaving the church??
As a woman of the church I resent being lumped under the carpet with the very large elephant scandal brought on by the men of the church.
When ones condemns the church as a whole you are also condemning the women in the church so please specify the male half of the church. The dysfunction, disconnection, elitism, narcissism should be attributed solely to the men in the church not the church as a whole. I prefer to say men not clergy because it underlines where the problem lies it's their male ego of superiority that has created so many of the problems.
However,it is very sad for all the good dedicated priests to be cast in this light of mistrust...because of a few who have fallen...Is it is safe to leave my child for catechism or will he be molested??? Is the priest on the altar consecrating the host in a state of mortal sin? Is my mass and communion valid if offered by a priest in the state of mortal sin? These are among the many questions and doubts the faithful ponder before leaving the church.
Where does this leave the women of the church...?? the silent ones...
if we want we can be the most powerful in the church through the most powerful weapon we have which is the power of prayer. My solution to the elephant under the carpet is we must all pray for the same thing
"A Holy Priesthood."
This brings to mind St Francis of Assisi, what would he have accomplished without the powerful prayers Of St. Claire and the sisters....Remember the saying "Behind every great man there is a woman". I believe behind every priest there should be a prayer team..
If you have a better idea let me know...

Good article , I use another word its paedophile mentality and it fits squualy

Ireland, the Vatican and clerical narcissism
by Phyllis Zagano on Aug. 03, 2011

An excellent article by Phyllis.

Phyllis, you are right on the money. It seems to me there are two models of priesthood. There is the one from the first century, priests who are there to serve, even at the cost of their lives. Then there is the model from the late-Middle Ages and Renaissance, the priest who is there to be served. These sorts of priests are interested in titles, silk vestments and adoration from the laity and everyone else below them on the church totem poll. They also consider themselves immune from civil law, just as priests were in the Middle Ages.

The problem with the RCC is that we have too many of the later model of priest and not enough of the former.

Thank you very much for this article. I have been screaming with rage about what is going on in the church and how come nobody else in the pews is outraged.
I have had to excommunicate the church from my life because of its refusing to follow the teachings of Jesus.

Howard

What is most striking about the Magees in this whole awful thing, is the total lack of any conscience in these men. It must be that the clerical system, this ecclesiatical climb, actually turns these men into something less than human. Maybe it's all that ritual attached to these awful deeds. Sociopaths writing and performing religious ritual, all enveloped inside of unaccountable wealth, preaching, distributing sacraments, and all the while allowing children to suffer so needlessly and in the most vile ways.

Men like Magee know how to obey. And that's all they know how to do. Hope he squeals on all the rest of them while they're vacationing at the Castle. I keep hearing Peggy Lee's rendition of "The Party's Over."

Thank you, Phyllis Zagano.

And Praise be to All That Is Holy that what was hidden is now revealed.

AW

Narcissism!! Great description! Save your DSM IV. Even if the term is removed in DMS V, we can still use the term and the description. That is what the DSM IV is about.

If the behavior fits the description, the term is correct. I don't see the narcissistic clerics seeking treatment so one does not need a PhD. It is hard to be narcissistic and to admit one has a problem. The belittling by the narcissist is just more proof. What we need is a good irreverent British comedy with a narcissistic cleric. Laughing is better than crying. Nothing hurts the pompous more than that.

Remember the Church is the people of God. So where do these people go who stay away from the narcissistic pews? I am sure some become un-churched. However, some find their way to our christian cousins.

By the way there are alternatives other than Anglican or other Protestant churches.

"It is more than an outrage. We are talking about children here. We are talking about systemic cover-up of the most serious abuses at the highest level...."

Congratulations, Phyllis, for this excellent article. The soul-murder and even suicides of innocent children, who have been sexually abused by priests in the Roman Catholic Church, has still not brought many of the leaders in the church true insight into their complicity and responsibility, in allowing priest sex abuse to flourish worldwide.

As a physician, I believe that mandatory celibacy has created a situation where many clergy have been stunted in their psychosexual development, in the same-sex training in seminaries and in religious communities.

Over the centuries, since celibacy was made mandatory in the 12th century, the Roman Catholic Church has used its moral authority to exploit those who wished to give God their all. I think this is very unfair to these idealistic young people. In reality, we can all desire to give God our all in every walk of life, whether we are married or single.

As in adolescence, many Roman Catholic clergy identify and protect their peer group of fellow priests. In their sexual frustrations, some have become opportunistic abusers.

Not having the opportunity to experience a more balanced life of human love, marriage, and raising children of their own, clergy develop blindspots in their growth to maturity. Some might never develop the maturity of adulthood.

Sadly, clericalism has returned and the princes of the church are interested in power and control.

Thankgoodness some in the hierarchy are still servant-leaders, as Jesus was. There needs to be the courage of these servant-leaders to unite, be attuned to the sense of the faithful, and help the church to clean-up its act, for God's greater glory! Thankyou, Phyllis for your insights and fine reporting.

Sincerely, Dr Rosemary Eileen McHugh, Chicago

I doubt if Ms Zagano has read the Cloyne Report. It is anything but a "page turner". Here is a good summary that corrects Enda Kenny's distortions: http://thethirstygargoyle.blogspot.com/2011/07/how-many-questions-on-clo... See also: http://thethirstygargoyle.blogspot.com/2011/07/cloyne-report-tackling-pr...

These were posted on the Commonweal site, which also gave me the reference to the Zagano article. It is amazing that the Dowd wannabes on Commonweal to a man/woman refused to read these links. "Don't trouble me with the facts," is a dangerous attitude, leading to prejudice, hatred, hysteria.

One 'wise guy priest' tells anyone who complains about the 'Church,' "When you find the perfect Church, join it; then it won't be perfect anymore."

Zagano nails it. Thanks. But rather than a "schism" as her last column had it, there's more likely to be a massive defection, leaving the donatistic remnant that is Ben XVI's ideal left -- a Catholic cult, not a church.

The Irish lived under English oppression for several centuries, treated like dogs in their own country. Then, with the Irish Free State, came the ascendency of the Catholic Church and the Irish lived under the yoke of a new master, in many respects, just as cruel as the English. Now, that is over too. May God bless and protect the Irish and deliver them from their centuries of suffering under cruel and arrogant masters.

Narcissism? YES. I find great hope in the courage that the Irish are showing. They are speaking truth to power. I anticipate that Ireland will embody (and lead us to) the RESURRECTION.

Why haven't more people left the church? Possibly because they still find something good left in the church 1) Jesus Christ hasn't left the church 2) there are still good priests left who model saints and inspire the faithful. The same earth that Hitler walked, so walked Ghandi and Martin Luther King, even if there day in the sun had not yet happened. God doesn't leave any soul in total darkness, Geneses Chapter 1, where the Presence is found in the darkness and turbulent waters. Whether I believe in a good, compassionate, caring God is not dependent upon priests who abuse. Nor, it is right to reject the many for the sins of a few.

Are the Church authorities, ie., Bishops, Cardinals, and Popes narcistists? Yes. Look at the fine ropes and places of honor, and you see the hypocritical religious leaders of Jesus' time, and hear the voice of Jesus today. But, just as the Holy Spirit didn't allow the Apostles and followers of Jesus to lose heart at the death of Jesus, so too, the Holy Spirit will comfort us as well. Praise God for being able to reveal to us, "what no human being reveals," and it is that personal relationship which allows for God's revelations with the Vatican fears and which God in the Heavens rejoices over!

"Both hypersensitive and incapable of envy, the narcissist only argues his private truth."

Should that be 'incapable of empathy'?

Narcissism is present for sure among some of the hierarchy. Certainly a lot of unhealthy sexual concepts being taught by the church. In one parish alone where I was a member, there was one alcoholic priest, another one caught with pornographic materials, one priest who was later found to have sexually abused young boys, and another priest who was suffering immensely having to live among these priests. I absolutely question mandatory celibacy. I question church teaching on human sexuality and disagree with much of it.

I live in Philadelphia. Now that the announcement has been made that Archbishop Chaput is replacing Cardinal Rigali, the Philadelphia Inquirer has been running articles about the grand jury investigation of the sexual abuse cases. Two articles about whether former Cardinal Bevilacqua under whom most of the abusing priests were transferred around the various parishes would be able to testify since he is now somewhat senile and suffering from cancer ? A very long article about how Chaput was instrumental in killing legislation in Colorado that would allow a two year window for sexual abuse victims to file claims and just how he organized parishes to help that cause. No doubt as to why he was assigned to Philadelphia. I doubt that Philadelphia will be another Boston where a group of priests confronted Cardinal Law. I am not too optimistic. Don't think I will be coming back "home" to join any parish any time soon....Will be interesting if there is any "push back" from anyone !

As someone who lives in Ireland and comments on religious affairs, may I make a few comments:

1. The Taoiseach's speech did make some valid points, but has given rise to an unjustified euphoria. It contained inaccuracies and smacked of opportunism.

3. From the style of delivery, it appeared to me that Mr. Kenny was reading a speech that he had not written, and was, in fact, seeing for the first time. For those of us who are familiar with Kenny's oratory, and how emotional he can appear to become over the most trivial matters, this speech was unrehearsed; hence his mispronunciation of 'soutane' and 'gimlet', and his flat, uninflected manner of speaking.

4. At no time did he call for the outlawing of the seal of the confessional. This is speculation on what the ramifications of mandatory reporting might be, as mandatory reporting, demanded of the Church, is not yet part of Irish civil law.

5. Irish politicians were, for many years, subservient to the Catholic Church, but it takes two to tango. These were, in Irish terms, well educated men, and nobody forced them into this subserviance.

6. In the early days of the Irish Republic, and up until at least the end of the 1960s, the Irish state colluded in the abuse, torture and rape of children.

Before calls for the beatification of, and cries of 'santo subito' for Enda Kenny become too clamorous, these points should be remembered.

Friends, I am joining the Church soon and working through the Catacism. All of this comes to one thing, original sin. We go to mass because we are sinners, you, me, the Church. The entire gospel of Jesus and the Church depends on that simple idea. Christ never said the Church would be perfect or even good but that it would prevail, that we would prevail. If sin is a problem as it is, the solution is love. If we want to change the Church we challenge it by our devotion as a Mother loves a wayward Child, abandonment is surely not the solution, ever. That is why the Church opposes abortion because there is always hope for human life. When you destroy the life you commit the greatest crime of losing hope in the goodness of man. The social/moral teaching of the Church are meant to be expanded to the Body of Christ. St Paul says if your spouse is not a christian you unconditionally love them until they change. The Church teaches that we will all stand before God for what we do in this life. We stand loyally besides our broken brotheren because we are all sinners, thier sin is our sin and we grieve the heart of the Lord. I would love to change the Church through righteousness and loyalty, that is how a family lives.

There are two stories of Creation in Genesis.
Why have we never focussed on Original Goodness?