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PDF versionThe church's new role as a refuge for absolutism
by Jamie L Manson on Feb. 28, 2011
As I continue to reflect on the “Lost? Twenty-Somethings and the Catholic Church” conference hosted at Fordham University last month, I keep returning to the opinions of Robert Putnam on the vital importance of the church for immigrant communities.
Putnam is co-author of American Grace: How Religion Unites and Divides Us, which, only months after its October 2010 publication, has already become the “go to” book for those seeking information and insights into the state of religious culture in the U.S.
Putnam credits the thriving of the Catholic Church in the U.S. in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries on its ability to provide a refuge for immigrants. As thousands flooded into the U.S., they were fearful of their new, foreign surroundings and typically suffered with destitution and persecution. The parish offered them rituals and traditions that were familiar, and organized them into a supportive, insulated community.
The Catholic Church offered immigrants the best of what religious groups can offer.
As Lawrence Cunningham of Notre Dame University writes, one of the most important functions of a religious community is to “provide refuge from the pressures and fears (real or imagined) of social change and/or disruption. The close bonds of such groups set up a kind of umbrella under which people can feel secure.”
This explains in part why, even to this day, the church remains so vital and influential in parts of the world that are wracked by violence, poverty, and political and social instability. It also explains why Latinos now form the backbone of Catholic lay participation in the U.S.
The church provides them refuge from their ongoing struggles with poor working and living conditions as well as increasingly xenophobic immigration laws. In exchange, Latinos keep the church from catastrophic collapse in this country.
Allegiance to the Catholic Church in the U.S. began to falter as the children and grandchildren of immigrants assimilated into American society both ethnically and religiously.
“As ethnic identities faded over the generation, they become less Catholic and more like other Americans,” Putnam notes. And as the discrepancy between the views of laity and the institutional church grows, their commitment to Catholicism weakens as well.
Will Latino Catholics follow a similar trajectory in the decades ahead?
Another panelist at the “Lost?” conference, Marilyn Santos, who works in youth ministries for the Archdiocese of Atlanta, suggested that the adoption of the English language by Latinos correlates with their decreased Catholic affiliation. Citing a 2000 Pew Hispanic Center study, Santos said that the allegiance Latinos have to Catholicism drops from 74 percent among first generation Americans to 62 percent among the third generation.
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So what happens to new generations of baptized Catholics when they grow up immersed in socially and economically stable American culture?
The “Lost?” conference attempted to answer that question with a short video of interviews with young adult Catholics and former Catholics, captured in guerilla filmmaking style.
What made the film most striking was that the interviewees were randomly selected members of the millennial generation found strolling through parks or hanging outside of restaurants. They weren’t the typical young adult stakeholders found on Catholic college campuses or in graduate programs in theology.
And yet, the themes of each interview followed a similar pattern.
Every person interviewed had an aversion to the institutional church’s stances on women, gays and lesbians, and mandatory celibacy for the clergy. All those who attended church struggled to find people from their generation to connect with in their parishes. Most felt that their parishes catered to senior citizens and young families with children. Almost every student resonated deeply with the Church’s social justice tradition. And all interviewees mentioned that they were longing for community.
All of these twenty-somethings were searching for a refuge, but few could find solace in an institution that revokes its welcome based on issues like gender or sexual orientation. They could hardly find a sense of safety in a church that would disinvite them from the Eucharistic table because of differing convictions about political or social concerns.
Though the film drew from a small sampling pool, the opinions expressed are supported by exhaustive research. Of the twenty-something Catholics polled for American Grace, 80 percent want to see women in the clergy, 75 percent favor same-sex marriage, and only 15 percent attend Mass regularly.
Young adult Catholics are still looking for a place of refuge, but not because of fears of social change or disruption. Rather, they are searching for human connection in a world that increasingly unfolds in virtual reality. They are seeking ways to make meaning and live authentically in a media culture dominated by entertainers and extremists.
Tami Schmitz, a campus minister at the University of Notre Dame, reinforced this point.
The young people she meets on campus are yearning for community. “They want someone to know, listen to and treasure their stories. They want a home where they are known and loved,” she said
But this does not seem to be the refuge that the institutional church is willing or able to provide for the vast majority of new generations of Catholics.
Of the millennials who still practice Catholicism, 10 percent describe themselves as highly orthodox. Most studies suggest that this group will form the core of the Roman Catholic Church in the U.S.
It is this group of young Catholics for whom the church gladly provides a refuge: those who live in fear of changes in society that have brought greater equality and justice, particularly for women and LGBT persons.
It’s for those who, like the hierarchy, are seeking an umbrella of security in the forms of absolutism and unquestioning conformity.
“In community you can’t get lost -- someone will miss you,” commented Schmitz at one point in her reflection.
But to those 90 percent of twenty-somethings who do not fit in the “highly orthodox” category, the institutional church is communicating the very opposite this message.
Instead of offering them community and a refuge, the hierarchy tells them they will not be missed and, in fact, that the church would prefer it if they would “get lost.”
[Jamie L. Manson received her Master of Divinity degree from Yale Divinity School where she studied Catholic theology and sexual ethics. Her columns for NCR earned her a first prize Catholic Press Association award for Best Column/Regular Commentary in 2010.]
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Of the twenty-something
Of the twenty-something Catholics polled for American Grace, 80 percent want to see women in the clergy, 75 percent favor same-sex marriage, and only 15 percent attend Mass regularly.
That's the salient point right there. Somewhere along the way, the youth were taught that the Mass is merely a time for community and togetherness, and not taught that it is Christ's sacrifice and necessary for salvation. Thus, by separating themselves from Christ and His Church, they more easily fall for false realities such as women clergy and same-sex marriage.
Instead of offering them community and a refuge, the hierarchy tells them they will not be missed and, in fact, that the church would prefer it if they would “get lost.”
Hah - what you're really saying is, that you want the Church to adopt the culture's acceptance of unacceptable things, so that you can tell the faithful and more orthodox believers to "get lost". The Church IS a refuge for sinners - unfortunately, the sinners are seeking refuge in unsafe harbors. It's not the Church's teachings that are at fault here.
So you believe the Mass "is
So you believe the Mass "is Christ's sacrifice and necessary for salvation"?
Our primitive ancestors in the Christian faith did not believe this stuff.
Our salvation has already been guaranteed by God according to Jesus. Read the three parables in Luke 15 where it is God who takes the initiative to find the "lost".
'Mass as sacrifice' was a doctrinal novelty. Our Christian "sacrifice", in fact, is our attempt (at times unsuccessful) to live the good Christian life including, inter alia, our outreach to folks in need. The gospels portray the Son of God putting human need ahead of religious duty: "I want mercy, not sacrifice [religious duty]."
"[T]he sinners are seeking refuge in unsafe harbors."
That's right: Appeal to fear. Even though the Son of God tells us to fear not.
Again, read Luke 15.
It's not for nothing we believe God's love is unconditional, i.e., no strings attached.
"Every person interviewed had
"Every person interviewed had an aversion to the institutional church’s stances on women, gays and lesbians, and mandatory celibacy for the clergy."
I would rather these 20-ish folk NOT go to, say, The Episcopal Church or something like it. What I wonder about is why they don't jump ship?
Put another way, Jamie talks as if the true Church of Jesus subsists in that American Anglicanism that names itself "Episcopalianism." So, why is that church not growing 10% a year, rather than shrinking (which The Episcopal Church's own membership statistics back 40 years or more demonstrates very clearly)?
If Episcopalianism is shrinking, why does Jamie recommend Roman Catholics in the U.S. adopt an Episcopal stance on women, gays, lesbians and mandatory celibacy, to name but a few issues? Why is this both the measure of justice and evidence of some fresh work of the Holy Spirit?
And you think Catholicism
And you think Catholicism isn't shrinking? LOL You better read the Pew Center and read their findings.
The doctrine of the Mass is a movable feast of eucharistic theological development. From a Jewish seder, to a mystery, to a rigidly defined sacramental repetition of Calvary, to a mystical meal. The Mass has always been what the Church says it is or defines it to be.
We experience the mystery through beauty, through a manipulation of rite and symbol, placed within a scriptural context or a set of themes from both testaments. Jesus is encountered through this act of beauty. He is hidden in it, but reveal Himself to our senses through it. This is why the beautification of the liturgy is always so important to understanding all the dimensions of the Church's development of this story of the eucharist.
What an outstanding essay and
What an outstanding essay and so disheartening to know that, "The hierarchy tells them they won't be missed and and fact, the church would prefer it if they did, Get Lost." I agree that in," Community you can't get lost because someone would miss you. I don't attend mass anymore but Jesus in always in my heart, mind and soul. If you ever find that sacred community the so many of us yearn for, please let the world know. I will be the first one there.
God Bless You and I pray that gays will be granted human rights.
Little Lily
You are making a bogey-man
You are making a bogey-man out of "the hierarchy," whatever that means, the same way you accuse "the hierarchy" of making bogey-men out of gays and lesbians. The inability to distinguish between realities is a sign of ignorance, not experience or insight. There are many more laypeople interested in absolutism (whatever THAT is) than clergy. And if you bothered to speak with twenty-somethings these days, you'd find out that lots of them are in that same group, and that they're the mainstream. Let's face it: you bought into a pseudo-Christian theology at Yale that told you you were right and the Church was wrong, but the only people who believe that are the misfits who try to get even with the Church by blogging with other misfits on sites like this one. It's not too late to become a Catholic, Jamie, but if you keep hanging out with the crowd from the 60s, you're going to find yourself all alone and bitter, just like they are.
Marge, Who is alone and
Marge,
Who is alone and bitter here? You?
Jamie is asking good questions that deserve a reflective, not obnoxious, response. I work with young people in their twenties and most are apathetic toward religion. The apathy and anger to the Catholic church, on some but not all positions, is real and we need creative solutions through dialogue not ultimatums. The Church will decline if it keeps up it practice of neglecting the 99 while caring for the 1.
If you want a creative
If you want a creative solution to this issue, tell them to get over themselves. As a "20-something" Catholic, it was when my local priest told me to get over my own personal beliefs that I fully came to, and appreciated the Catholic Church. Same goes for almost everyone who posts here. Get.Over.Yourself. You are insignificant in the eyes of eternity. Your beliefs are insignificant. The Church in Her wisdom is very significant in your salvation. Listen to Her!
"It was pride that caused the Fall of Man... If you ask me the ways to God, I would say the first is humility, the second is humility, and the third is humility."
--St Augustine
Anonymous, I would disagree
Anonymous, I would disagree with you that we "are insignificant in the eyes of eternity". I see so much of the Gospel teachings of Jesus as showing us that all of us are significant in the eyes of eternity. I also think you see pride thru a very limited and foggy lens. But what we can agree on is that the ways to God, the first is humility, the second is humility and the third is humility. Yet, how we see humility I would guess would often be very different.
When I think about the words
When I think about the words of Jesus as reported in the Gospels, I hear anything but the message that "You are insignificant in the eyes of eternity. Your beliefs are insignificant." Maybe we hear this from some people in the laity and hierarchy of the Church, but that just shows how out of line with Jesus's thinking they have become.
If we are to love our neighbor as ourselves, well, this is pretty meaningless if we don't love ourselves.
Amen. Everything --- love,
Amen.
Everything --- love, hate, etc. --- starts within.
I am shocked almost
I am shocked almost speechless by this post. A PASTOR told you, anonymous, to "get over yourself"? Astounding! I can only wonder why he didn't respect you and your beliefs enough to listen, dialogue with you and attempt to help you develop different attitudes and beliefs if he thought that those you held were wrong?? No wonder you are now passing on the message to others that "You are insignificant in the eyes of eternity." My understanding of Catholic teaching (I have an M.Div.from a Catholic seminary) is that NO-ONE is insignificant in the eyes of God. This harsh treatment may have brought you up short and been the cause of some sort of conversion in your beliefs but my bet, as a decades-long catechist and Director of Religious Education, is that it would have been so insulting to most people that they would have left and shaken the dust of that place off of their feet as they went. All we have with which to come to God is ourselves; slap that down and what is left?
Please, at least have enough humility to recognize that you are not the gold standard of humanity and that your proposed solution, while it might have helped you personally, is every bit as likely to be more offensive and unsuccessful with others as it is to be the least bit helpful in any way.
If believers are
If believers are "insignificant in the eyes of eternity," then why would the Church want them at all?
Also, please explain why you call a Church run and dominated by males, which reserves all positions of authority, privilege and theological "connectedness to God" for males, a "Her." Would it not be more appropriate to call the Church "Him" as these men claim they and the Church represent Christ?
The Church is the Bride of
The Church is the Bride of Christ, correctly referred to with a female pronoun when discussing the immutable and divine Church. The priests themselves are acting in persona Christi.
You need to learn to think
You need to learn to think for yourself and stop listening to priests with an agenda of their own. You'd be better off in a library, a good bar, or a house of ill repute. You'll learn more about faith, religion, and God there than any priest or prelate could ever provide.
Creative solutions through
Creative solutions through dialogue are hardly a replacement for God. Sure, we need to bring interest back in the Church, but it's not a matter of asking youth what they want -- it's a matter of finding the best way to connect members of the Body of Christ to God.
Let us stop making the
Let us stop making the mistake of thinking the "CHURCH" is the teachings of priests, prelates, and popes. That is a narrow definition which is being rejected more and more by enlightened Catholics. The Church is ALL HUMANITY. What it knows, learns, and communicates. The Holy Spirit inspires everyone, not just Pope Benedict, those around him and Catholics.
You are so wrong, Jamie. The
You are so wrong, Jamie. The young people you describe are not searching for the truth- they are looking for a church that tells them they can do whatever makes them feel good. They are alienating themselves. They are told lies- that women are discriminated in the church, that homosexuals aren't welcome- and what difference does it make to them whether priests, by their own choice, embrace celibacy? Young people will always find refuge in the church-as long as they accept the Gospel truth.
Thank you, thank you, thank
Thank you, thank you, thank you for you most cogent insights. I am 62 years old. I love the catholic church (notice I use the small "c" as in People of God/Body of Christ) with all my "BE"ing. I firmly believe I am called, through Baptism, to BE Christ in the World. My age may not qualify me to "BE" in the 90% group of which you speak but my awareness of Truth when I hear it certainly does. Fear drives EVERYTHING in this world and the Catholic Church is NO exception. Jesus said "Fear not, for I am always with you." but most of the hierarchy and that core "orthodox" group have forgotten his promise. Eucharistic empowers all of us to BE and live the truth of Jesus Christ and it is what gives me the strength to continue my journey of faith. The institutional Church lost its way the minute it arrogantly decided it was infallible (or at least anyone within it was.) God bless you for confirming the innate sense of human justice is the central core of what draws us into community - and all the rest is just pomp and circumstance.
The Roman Catholic Church is
The Roman Catholic Church is the last absolute monarchy!
Absolute monarchy being the
Absolute monarchy being the most logical form of human government and the only divine model...we need more of them!!
I don't think you are right
I don't think you are right but,if you are, why didn't Jesus become king?
Of course, it is
Of course, it is logical....when YOU are the monarch. Put away the book of fairy tales and stop watching old black and white movies about medieval European monarchies. The few monarchies left are,thankfully, toothless and becoming non-existent.
The "Kingdom" of God has nothing to do with crowns, jewels and royal hoopla. No one even recognized the Kingdom when Jesus preached it. They still don't.
Louis, the divine model as
Louis, the divine model as Christ lived and told us is about being the least and St. Paul in the book of Acts tells us that the Christian model is Socialism.
Absolute monarchy being the
Absolute monarchy being the most logical form of human government and the only divine model...we need more of them!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you Cardinal Burke. If this thining is an example of Benedict's Church of the future, God help the Church, the pope, and everyone in it.
Louis E. on Mar. 02,
Louis E. on Mar. 02, 2011.
You stated:
"Absolute monarchy being the most logical form of human government and the only divine model...we need more of them!!"
--------------------------------------------
And your sources on absolute monarchy being the most logical form of human government? Everything that Jesus said and did at the Last Supper (and other occasions) was in direct contradiction to your statement. Jesus certainly did not want his followers to lead others as 'absolute monarchs.' Or have you missed the lessons Jesus taught the disciples while he was washing their feet?
Yes it is and its called the
Yes it is and its called the Kingdom of Christ.
And remember that his crown
And remember that his crown was a crown of thorns and that his kingdom is made up of those who are the least, those who serve, those who sell all of their possessions to give more to the poor, those who do good to those who persecute them. Just writing this make me realize how far I am from truly being a part of his kingdom.
The "90 percent of
The "90 percent of twenty-somethings who do not fit in the 'highly orthodox' category" will indeed be missed by Mother Church, should they choose to leave her. But, ultimately, it will be THEIR CHOICE to leave.
They will choose to abandon the Sacraments, the Eucharist, the Real Presence of Jesus Christ, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Blessed Sacrament. They will choose to prefer the world and the flesh to the Word of God. They will choose to exalt their own will and opinion rather than accept in humility that they are not all-knowing and always right. They will choose the easy road of "fitting in" with the secular and worldly culture rather than the far more difficult road of "fitting in" with the Word of God, Jesus Christ. As Our Lord said in Matthew 7:13: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road to leads to destruction, and many enter through it".
Finally, you cite that conformity is opposed by this ever-elusive 90% of young people in their 20's. The conformity we speak of in the Church is not conformity in prayer, nor in the core of what it means to be Catholic (do they recite the Creed on Sundays?). Rather, the conformity we speak of is conformity to Christ. We must always, from Pope to the least pious individual, strive to conform ourselves to the mind and heart of Christ. That means more than simply nice words and kind gestures, it means separating ourselves from all that is evil and immoral, all that is sinful and all that leads us, or encourages us, to sin. It means setting aside our human opinions and desires and striving to embrace the will of Christ in our lives. It means dying to ourselves so that we might live the life of Christ.
I doubt that this elusive 90% have ever been taught that. If they had been, and if they had been taught it in its fullest, I very much doubt that they would choose to turn their back on Christ and His Church.
CWG Your post pretty much
CWG Your post pretty much sums up the real reason the twenty somethings are rejecting your version of the Church. In all your words above, not once do you write the word love. Not in any context at all. And that's the problem, the Church you so valiantly defend is devoid of meaningful love, lacks compassion, and insists on defining it's worth against the unworth of others. I would like to think if you were really 'dying to yourself so you might live the life of Christ' that the word love might have come up at least once.
God is love. The Church is
God is love. The Church is by definition a manifestation of God's love. She has compassion because Christ has compassion.
Thank you Colkoch1. The whole
Thank you Colkoch1. The whole purpose of dying to oneself is to be able to live the life of the Christ which was a life of compassion and the serving of all (not just a select few). Compassion and service are the products of love. God is love.
True love is desiring what is
True love is desiring what is best for the other, the one whom one loves. The best anyone can hope for is eternal happiness in the Presence of God in the Heavenly Kingdom. Jesus gave us His Church in order for us to have a guide for our earthly journey toward Heaven. The Church's teaching is the means by which we form our consciences to be conformed to the mind and heart of Christ. True love then is de monstrated by presenting that teaching authentically and in its fullness.
Watering down that teaching because it may offend is not love. Look to Christ as the example, He Who loved all, but Who also said, "go and sin no more".
"Go and sin no more." Yes,
"Go and sin no more."
Yes, and Jesus also told his listeners to forgive without limit.
(that's the part you left out)
God would not ask us to do more than what God is prepared to do.
It all boils down to God's unconditional love, i.e., no strings attached.
Good comment. Jesus tells us
Good comment.
Jesus tells us about God as love. But many seek the God of massive structure, threats, and pomp.
and don't forget even those
and don't forget even those dressed in the cappa magna are known every now and then to seek God too.
yes, gives new meaning to the
yes, gives new meaning to the word 'miracle'.
I am continuously amazed and
I am continuously amazed and deeply disappointed how one dimensionally we tend to see those who see things differently than we do. You have placed everyone who has left The Church in one box, You have reduced all of these children of God as lazy, selfish and turning their backs on Christ. I suspect it is spiritually and intellectually easier to lump all together, but I also believe that it is inaccurate and unchristian.
So a large number of
So a large number of twentysomething Catholics are lost, morally confused, ignorant of Church teaching, and prefer their own ideas to God's revealed truth as expressed in Catholic doctrine. The Church will not bend to their sinful attitudes and tendencies, for she is the Rock for all ages. You misunderstand the Church's mission as refuge entirely. The Church is a refuge, a refuge from the relativism and disarray that twentysomethings are responsible for but apparently unaware of their causal role.
No love in this one either.
No love in this one either.
If any of the people Jamie is
If any of the people Jamie is referring to are in the San Francisco Bay Area, they should come here to find community: www.mhr.org.
If the orthodox are the ones
If the orthodox are the ones seeking refuge in conformity and absolutism, why are they the ones in this society who stand apart from societal trends? Likewise, if the heterodox are so non-conformist, why do they seek to force the Catholic Church to conform to the social mores of the secular culture?
Another good way to lose
Another good way to lose people is to fail to post their comments for days at a time. Is NCR trying to tell us to "get lost"?
When will the Catholic
When will the Catholic hierarchs get it, that they are (supposedly) representatives of a highly unorthodox, non-conforming Jew who rejected absolutism and deliberately and painstakingly sought out, and welcomed, the marginalised and the outcasts? As it's fashionable to say, nowadays: 'It ain't rocket science'.
I'm not a millenial. I'm not
I'm not a millenial. I'm not even sure that my generation has a designation, being born in the years of overlapping generational cohorts and being pushed into the background by the enormous Boomer generation. Meaning that I am approaching 70 and yet I relate to everything that these millenials are looking for in a church/parish community. Therefore I am also not part of the very orthodox segment of the Roman Catholic population. As a result of being born and raised in Nazi Germany during WWII I learned that absolutism and unquestioning conformity does not bring security whether it is within a religion or within politics and governments. I too look forward to a community in which you can't get lost, where someone will miss you. A place where I can tell my story and be heard. I'm for an open and welcoming community where we speak the same language, and if we don't that there will be interpreters/translators present to provide clarity and understanding.
When I was a University
When I was a University student, we had a dynamic community in the Campus Ministry Center at the perimeter of California State University Hayward (now CSU East Bay). It provided all of those things that young people today are longing for, and more. It was imperfect, but it did that job.
It served the university to which it was adjacent, along with two community colleges. It also served some local young adults who felt like their local parishes didn't.
The building was built for the purpose, and was ideal; it also included a residence for a chaplain.
The Diocese of Oakland shuttered the place some years ago.
They had plenty of money to build the great Cathedral of Christ the Light in downtown Oakland, a monument to the egos of at least a couple of bishops, and a boon to the career of one.
But nothing to support a place to serve college and university students.
"Of the millenials who still
"Of the millenials who still practice Catholicism, 10 percent describe themselves as highly orthodox. Most studies suggest that this group will form the core of the Roman Catholic Church in the U.S....[L]ike the hierarchy, [they] are seeking an umbrella of security in the forms of absolutism and unquestioning conformity."
What a pity.
Seeking refuge in a church of dysfunction.
Those who won't heed the lessons of institutional history...
"Those who won't heed the
"Those who won't heed the lessons of institutional history..."
Joseph a close, even a long distance glance at history shows that for 2,000 years the Catholic Church has survived the heretics de jour. As you watch the most recent, and no doubt not the last class of heretics fade into old age and oblivion you might ask yourself, "why does the Church survive millenium after millenium?". Then decide if you want to be on the side of Truth that endures, or heresy that fades away.
Crawler the same thing can be
Crawler the same thing can be said for Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Taoism, and of course Judaism. Longevity is not necessarily correlated with Truth.
In the entire history of the
In the entire history of the post Constantine RCC, there has NEVER been a crisis of celibate priestly vocations around the world as we see today. How can the RCC survive without priests? How can candidates for the priesthood be counted upon to show up at the doors of the seminaries in the future when there are 4 times as many funerals as there are weddings in the American RCC, and even fewer elsewhere in the world?
I have heard trads say over and over again that the RCC is not a Democracy. Well, WHY NOT!!! The time for feudalism was gone 1,000 years ago. The RCC is hanging onto feudalism by its finger nails and is about to go off the cliff.
"I have heard trads say over
"I have heard trads say over and over again that the RCC is not a Democracy. Well, WHY NOT!!!"
Truth is not subject to majority vote.
Please tell us what the truth
Please tell us what the truth is. Do tell.
Is it that the world is flat? (A longtime Church truth/teaching for which people who thought otherwise were persecuted. Now rescinded, and apologies made by the Church 300 years late.)
Is it that women cannot be ordained? (A longtime Church truth/teaching for which people who think otherwise are now being persecuted.)
Is it that there is a "place" called limbo? (A longtime Church truth/teaching now rescinded.)
Is it that aliens cannot exist? (Recently updated by the Vatican.)
Is it that purgatory is not a place but a condition? (A longtime Church "truth" now being repositioned.)
Is it that the chalice must always be gold? (Wonder if Jesus had a gold chalice there at the Last Supper?)
When "unchangeable, through-the ages infallible TRUTHS" can be easily rescinded just because these guys say so, it leaves many wondering what "the TRUTH" is with regard to the Church.
Maybe that is why some turn away from these easily dictatable and rescindable "truths" and seek to find truth, meaning and purpose in the greatest commandment: God is love.
Democracy is not the answer
Democracy is not the answer to all the world's problems;remember Winston Churchill's comments about democracy as a form of government. Anyway Christ was never a democrat and he founded his church in order that mankind will be redeemed. In any event Christ said 'thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church etc.' and it has survived for two millennia despite the worst machinations of heretics along the way. I am sure, given the assurances of Christ about its survivability,that it will continue until Christ decrees otherwise notwithstanding the intellectual arrogance spouted in some of the above replies. God is infinitely smarter than all the intellectuals combined . So let them stand on their soap boxes because in the words of the famous song "we shall overcome" with the help of god's infinite wisdom and love for us!
So what was the purpose of
So what was the purpose of Vatican I, Vatican II, the Nicene Council, and the Lateran Councils? A group conscience of the Church has a whole lot more liklihood to be in synch with the Holy Spirit than the whims of one man. If Peter had been the final arbiter of the faith, all of our male converts in Africa and Asia would be lining up to be circimcised!
And you and Anonymous chose to completely duck my question as to how can you have a RCC without priests.
I chose that "Truth that
I chose that "Truth that endures" which the institutional Roman Catholic church has completely forgotten. The Spirit is speaking to all, not just to a group of men playing dress-up in Rome.
Heresy??? Get real,
Heresy???
Get real, "kscrawler".
Canon 751 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law defines heresy as "the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith."
And what kind of "truth" is being referenced in this canon?
Canon 750.1 provides the answer: "A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one *deposit of faith* entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium *which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful*..." (emphases added).
The "deposit of faith" is essentially all that God has revealed through Jesus for our salvation. In fact, most church teaching is not at all infallible, that is, it has not been taught as infallible by the solemn magisterium of the church (papal 'ex cathedra' pronouncement regarding faith and morals --- or a solemn declaration by the world's bishops assembled in a general/ecumenical council of the church). Please note, too, canon law's acknowledgement of the vital historical role of the faithful in the reception of official church teaching.
Would you not agree that any judicial determination of heresy would presuppose a careful inquiry into all pertinent facts, especially the obstinate (and visible) rejection of a doctrine of faith?
I'm not a canon lawyer, but even I can research the subject.
Why can't you?
"or by its ordinary and
"or by its ordinary and universal magisterium "
True, but there is no
True, but there is no evidence to date that the universal body of Catholic bishops, while dispersed around the globe and in union with the pope, has unanimously agreed that the official doctrine on women's ordination, i.e., that the church lacks authority to ordain women to the presbyterate/episcopate, is definitively to be held.
Thanks for mentioning the third mode of infallible teaching.
I think it is such a hard
I think it is such a hard thing for so many people in their 20's and 30's because of this idea of "Love". Many of us are living in a society that is just for ourselves and our own agendas. I think this is exactly why so many are torn and leaving our church, because they feel they are not listened to and no one cares.
Christ's example does exist in our church and in many of the people. I think the people on top "Hierarchy" are the ones who we think cause all the problems and don't understand us. But really it's the people who are in your local church that think they have an idea of what Catholicism really is, only to shove their own agenda. There are so many great posts on this article and I think it's great to see so many who don't agree with what is happening with our youth.
The Youth can walk away and if they do, where will the church be in the future?
We need to seek better ways to engage our younger brothers and sisters and in a way that connects with the culture they are living in. If Catholicism is universal, then we will listen and if it's truly the church, many will come to us because we do things with "Love" and in an authentic and understanding way.
"What other institution in
"What other institution in the U.S. would still persist amid corruption of this nature?"
(This is a quote from Jamie Manson's March 14th column, from which there is at present, 3/14/2011 9:54 p.m., no access to commenting to the blog, therefore I will comment here, hoping the site monitors will cut and paste it to the comment section in the March 14th post when it is up and running. Thank you.)
One other institution in the U.S. that still persists amid corruption of the same nature of the Catholic Church, is the institution of the family. Sexual abuse of children in families is probably more pervasive than in the institution of the Catholic Church. The laity comes from families, priests come from families, everyone comes from families, so in many lay families, the issue of sex abuse is already covered up, and to uncover it and also demand justice in the Church Sex Scandal would be tantamount to living in a glass house and throwing stones.
We need a revival of Jesus' command to love God with our whole mind, heart and soul. We need a revival of Jesus' command to love our neighbor as ourselves. As human beings, because we doubt the Lord's love for us, in an effort to make ourselves feel loved, we lash out at others and abuse others, even though we have so much to be thankful for and are blind to the kingdom that is always so very near.
Respecting others as we would like to be respected is the key. We need to be ever mindful of the Lord, who loved us FIRST, and give up the option to inflict revenge. We must also go to our brothers and sisters and let them know in word and deed, be they priest, archbishop, husband, father, wife, mother, son or daughter, that we expect them to show respect as well. This is not very easy nor will it ever happen in places where the Kingdom is not respected, and therefore not at hand. Luckily we are given the parable of the mustard seed to show us where to start. We are given the parable of the mustard seed to show us where to continue.
Can we respect women enough to give them equal access to power and resources and not kill them or fire them when we are threatened by their growth?
Can we respect children enough not to molest them or abort them?
Can we respect poor men enough to not recruit or draft them into armies into wars that perpetuate the disrepect of our global neighbors?
Can we stop denying our own sins of disrespect before expecting the world to be respectful?
When our neighbors are disrespectful, can we courageously stand up to them and request their respectful compliance?
The simple answer is no we cannot. The right answer is that through the power of the Holy Spirit, we can do so more often. Jesus continues to show us the Way.
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