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PDF versionThe Vatican's bold outreach to Anglicans
by Richard McBrien on Dec. 28, 2009
I have thus far refrained from commenting on the recent Vatican initiative regarding Anglicans who wish to become Roman Catholics. I did not think that we have given the initiative time for the dust to settle. In my opinion, that situation remains.
Some things, however, are already clear. First, it was an act of insensitivity on the part of certain Vatican officials that the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, was not given adequate notice of the initiative.
One wonders, therefore, why he consented to appear in a joint press conference with the new Roman Catholic Archbishop of Westminster, Vincent Nichols, to greet the news.
Archbishop Williams subsequently met briefly with Pope Benedict XVI in November–a meeting that had been scheduled prior to the announcement of the initiative–at which meeting the subject of the initiative reportedly did arise.
The conversation between the two religious leaders was described as frank, but cordial. Indeed, so cordial was the meeting that the pope gifted the archbishop of Canterbury with a pectoral cross -- an implicit, even if unintended, recognition that Rowan Williams possesses valid episcopal orders.
The gesture was reminiscent of Pope John Paul II's gift in 1996 of a gold pectoral cross to Rowan Williams's predecessor, Archbishop George Carey (now Lord Carey), on the occasion of the 1400th anniversary of Pope Gregory the Great's sending of a group of monks, under the leadership of Augustine of Canterbury, to re-Christianize Briton.
We can refer to these as "mixed signals," since the official stance of the Catholic church toward Anglican Orders remains that of Pope Leo XIII, given in his famous papal bull Apostolicae curae ("Of apostolic concern") 100 years earlier, namely, that Anglican ordinations to the priesthood, and especially to the episcopate, are "absolutely null and utterly void."
Indeed, in a commentary issued in 1998 by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, head of the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Leo XIII's decree was cited as an example of a "definitive" pronouncement, closely connected with revelation itself.
Was John Paul II implicitly denying that century's-old teaching? Was Benedict XVI doing the same?
As we look more closely at the Apostolic Constitution Anglicorum coetibus ("On groups of Anglicans") and the accompanying norms released by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, one is struck not only by its canonical and pastoral complexity, but also by its ecumenical potential.
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If the Catholic church is prepared to foster reunion with a small portion of the Anglican Communion with such a bold initiative, why could it not do the same for other churches and ecclesial communities in the Body of Christ?
Why could not all churches and ecclesial communities currently separated from full communion with the Catholic church enter into that communion without sacrificing their own distinctive traditions -- liturgical, sacramental, spiritual, theological and canonical?
In that case, we could have a Presbyterian community in full communion with the Catholic church without sacrificing or jettisoning any of their most cherished traditions. The same might apply to Lutherans, Methodists, and so on.
To be sure, these arrangements, like the recent Vatican outreach to certain Anglicans, would be complicated and require a lot of ecclesiastical fine-tuning over many years. But that could very well be the harbinger of ecumenical things to come.
What is also clear from the Apostolic Constitution is that the Vatican was not somehow "poaching" on Anglican territory. The very first paragraph points out that groups of Anglicans have "repeatedly and insistently" petitioned to be received into full Catholic communion "individually as well as corporately."
Moreover, since 1980 there has existed a Pastoral Provision, also known as the Anglican Use, whereby Anglican priests (inappropriately called "ministers" in this latest Vatican document) who wish to enter into full communion with the Catholic church and who are eligible for ordination to the Catholic priesthood may be dispensed from the discipline of clerical celibacy.
The Apostolic Constitution provides the ecclesiastical means for full communion that is corporate, and in that sense seems to go beyond the terms of the Pastoral Provision.
Finally, to settle the question of whether former Catholic priests who subsequently became Anglicans might exercise their priesthood in the new Anglican Ordinariates, the Complimentary Norms definitively answer that in the negative (see article 6, §2).
There are many more items that one might address in the Apostolic Constitution and Compli-mentary Norms, but readers should study those documents for themselves. They are available on the Vatican Web site and published in Origins (vol. 39, no. 24, 11/19/09).
© 2009 Richard P. McBrien. All rights reserved. Fr. McBrien is the Crowley-O'Brien Professor of Theology at the University of Notre Dame.
Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide
Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are heretical and incompatible with Magisterial Teaching. The new Anglican outreach applies to "Anglo-Catholicism." This doesn't mean that the Evangelical and thoroughly Protestant wing of the Anglican Communion will be welcomed with open arms(or for that matter those who adhere to the musings of John Calvin, who was thoroughly anti-Catholic)...this is pure fantasy. All must submit to Papal Authority, and All must affirm the teachings of Holy Mother Church.
Such a Trojan horse as you envision, Father...will not come to pass. There will be no further Protestantization of the Church.
You haven't read the Book of
You haven't read the Book of Common Prayer.... read the section on the Articles of Faith of those "Anglo-Catholics" you seem to love so much. Face it, many uberconservatives are anxious to have them NOT because of charity but rather they want more like minded conservatives in the fold. And yes, they get to keep and use the Book of Common Prayer once they swim over.
Really DB? Have YOU read the
Really DB? Have YOU read the Book of Common Prayer? B16 has approved of the use of the Book of Common Prayer w/ its Articles of Religion for use in the Eucharist once they convert. What does it say?
XXVIII of the Articles of Religion in the Book of Common Prayer states:
Transubstantiation in the Supper of the Lord cannot be proved by Holy Writ: but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture......The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up or worshipped.
XXII (This is a good one!) The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints is repugnant to the Word of God.
How about XI (Sola Fide): We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith, and not for our own works....we are justified by Faith only.
XIX...the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in their living and manner of Ceremonies, but also in matters of Faith. (Not many Catholics in Ireland today would disagree w/ this one!)
XXXI Wherefore the sacrifices of Masses in which it was commonly said, that the priest did offer Christ for the quick and the dead, to have remission of pain or guilt, were blaphemous fables, and dangerous deceits.
Lambeth Conference Resolution II (Sola Scriptura) (a) The Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, as "containing all things necessary to salvation," and as being the rule and ultimate standard of faith.
Need I go on? The only thing "pure fantasy" are your comments.
Fr. McBrien is right, if we can swallow that then we can welcome the peaceful Methodists. Bravo Fr. McBrien.
Those in the Anglican Use DO
Those in the Anglican Use DO NOT use the Book of Common Prayer. They use the Book of Divine Worship--too separate things.
I don't agree. Those
I don't agree. Those Anglicans who have previously come over under the Pastoral Provision provided that the faithful coming from Anglicanism would be members of the Roman Catholic Diocese in which they were domiciled. It is my understanding that they are using the reconstituted Book of Divine Worship. HOWEVER, this doesn't apply to those coming over NOW under the Personal Ordinariates, they will NOT be part of a Roman Catholic diocese. They will "preserve" their liturgies and books of prayer, ie their 1928 Book of Common Prayer.
From the Vatican: 01641-02.01[Original text: English]
THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION ANGLICANORUM COETIBUS (FR. GIANFRANCO GHIRLANDA, S.J., RECTOR OF THE PONTIFICAL GREGORIAN UNIVERSITY)
States:
"What is involved in this provision, therefore, goes beyond what was envisioned in the Pastoral Provision adopted by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and approved by John Paul II on June 20, 1980. Whereas the Pastoral Provision foresaw that the faithful coming from Anglicanism would be members of the Diocese in which they were domiciled, although receiving special care from the diocesan Bishop, the Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum coetibus considers them as members of a Personal Ordinariate and not of the Diocese in which they are domiciled. Furthermore these Ordinariates will be composed of faithful from every sate of life (laity, priests and members of Institutes of Consecrated Life and of Societies of Apostolic Life) coming from Anglicanism either in groups or individually, or receiving the sacraments of initiation within the Ordinariate itself (Ap. Cons. I § 4)."
Also:
"It is clear from a careful reading of the Apostolic Constitution and of the Complementary Norms published by the Apostolic See that the provision of erecting Personal Ordinariates is intended to respond to two needs: on the one hand the need "to maintain the liturgical, spiritual and pastoral traditions of the Anglican Communion within the Catholic Church, as a precious gift nourishing the faith of the members of the Ordinariate and as a treasure to be shared" (Ap. Cons. III); on the other hand the need to fully integrate into the life of the Catholic Church groups of faithful, or individuals, coming from Anglicanism.
In other words, they will preserve their liturgical traditons within a Personal Prelature and apparently not have to reconstitute their books and liturgy as they did under the Pastoral Provision of JPII when they were required to become part of a particular Roman Catholic diocese. They apparently get to continue using their 1928 Book of Common Prayer. Note: The Episcopal Church USA uses a more modern version but the Articles of Religion, which lay out the tenets and beliefs of the Anglican Communion, is I believe, found in both. That is why they are called Anglicans, and not Catholics. I personally do not find their Book of Common Prayer to be all that bad. Rough language sometimes against the Roman Church but we've said just as bad.
Nope you are wrong. It is
Nope you are wrong. It is the Book of Divine Worship.
So, some Catholic priests are
So, some Catholic priests are to be held to celibacy, some are not...this is the proverbial leak that will wear down the wall of mandatory celibacy...it is obviously NOT all important if quite a number now are ordained priests and bring with them to the Church their wives & children!
This is the storm before the calm (which may take hundreds of years to arrive...but then any Council takes at least 300 years to be fully accepted/implemented). I have great hopes for the Catholic Church...but not much faith in those who are currently called "leaders". Thank goodness the Holy Spirit works with one and all.
Given that (1) there are
Given that (1) there are already married Catholic priests in the various Eastern Rites of the Church, and (2) there are already some married Roman Cathoilc priests who were formerly Anglican/Lutheran priests/ministers and were ordained into the Roman rite upon converting to Catholicism, it hardly seems apparent that accepting a few more married priests who are members of the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC) will have any effect on the celibacy debate in the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, from what I understand, many priests in the TAC chose to remain unmarried because they feel that celibacy fit their vocation better than the married state.
What really is the point of
What really is the point of any further discussion between Canterbury & Rome? Does anyone expect some sort of union which will allow gay bishops & blessings for gay unions in the Catholic Church as yet another Anglican rite?
Let's not forget that the
Let's not forget that the Anglicans to whom Benedict made this gesture are only those who are disaffected by the Anglican church regarding the ordination of women and gays. It is anything but an open invitation and that should be remembered.
Yes, Rome is reaching out to
Yes, Rome is reaching out to only those who are of like minds, which just doesn't seem much of a reach to me.
Exactly. Those that crossed
Exactly. Those that crossed over already had that in mind from the start. I just hope they understand completely what they are about to get into, but if they don't, we'll keep the light on for them.
Why doesn't the Catholic
Why doesn't the Catholic Church reach out to its' own! Maybe then we could ordain married and women priests like those they are welcoming into the "fold"!
All we will get will be ultra conservatives to continue the policies of the last three Popes.
Hmm someone referring to John
Hmm someone referring to John Paul I (or Paul VI) as ultra-conservative. Either you would find many here disagreeing with you--or you are so ultra-liberal that any pope would be seen as ultra-conservative. With many of the comments here, who knows what the case is.
This move was to streamline a
This move was to streamline a process that has been going on for decades. Making it easier for Anglicans to convert. These "Anglo-Catholics" have more or less been alienated from Anglicanism because Canterbury has ventured so far off the path, that Anglicans of the CS Lewis type are being forced into swimming the Tiber.
Rome has said that the Latin Rite will maintain its celibacy. If they choose to have married priests in the future, I would accept that reluctantly, but I would obey (it is worth noting that there are no married bishops in Orthodoxy, which if married priests come it will be in emulation of the East).
Women priests are an impossibility, and Canterbury has cut itself off permanently from us and the Eastern Churches by its actions.
Last 3 Popes? I take it you weren't a fan of Paul VI either? Let me guess...birth control right? Tradition is coming back, in a big way...I support this Pope, and thankfully the new generation of Bishops are in the John Paul II-Benedict XVI vein.
Those who wanted to cross
Those who wanted to cross over to Rome have pretty much already done so. I imagine some of the Roman Catholics here with a foot out the door are just waiting for a relative to pass on before they walk away.
Yeah, the kind that kissed
Yeah, the kind that kissed Marciel the Legionnaire on the steps of the Vatican for all to see!
Our Church is imperfect
Our Church is imperfect because it consists of human beings. We need to always remember that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on Earth. As I have said to my children many times - we stand with Peter (and his successors), and in this way we can truly call ourselves Catholic. The Catholic Church does reach out - many people have isolated themselves through their actions and separated themselves from Christ and His Church. Christ never stops loving us even when we are sinful and He is always willing to forgive our sinfulness. As I have studied for the diaconate I have realized more and more the true essence of what the Church stands for - love.
McBrien, Why would there be a
McBrien,
Why would there be a Methodist rite if they don't believe in the real presence? These Traditional Anglicans do believe.
I am not sure traditional
I am not sure traditional Anglicans accept the real presence. Remember - the reason why these folks want out has nothing to do with core Roman theology, but the Roman view towards women priests and gay clergy.
Again - I think we Catholics
Again - I think we Catholics are making a much bigger deal of this than it deserves. I think how Rome handled it was an insult to Anglican leaders.
The reality is the Episcopal Church runs more like a Reformation Church than a Roman Church. Now if the Pope wants to setup a new governance structure for the former Anglicans that resembles what they are used to - then something big could happen with the Roman Church. In this case, I could see the Roman laity flocking to the Anglican Right to be full and equal members of the Church. Remember Anglican Bishops are elected by the lay representatives of their diocese. Do any of you Romans think the Pope or he catholic Church will allow this is? Likewise, do you really think Anglican priests and laity will accept our governance?
Keep in mind - we are not talking about the Virgin Birth, why Christ died on the Cross, and other theological issues that have divided the churches. We are, instead, talking about meat and potato issues that keeps us divided.
"All we will get will be
"All we will get will be ultra conservatives to continue the policies of the last three Popes."
Ultra conservative last three Popes? The only one close to conservative is Pope Benedict (who was formerly a supporter of progressive reforms at the time of the Council). Pope John Paul II was highly ecumenical and appointed a number of trash child-abuse protecting bishops. Pope John Paul I was believed to be fairly progressive, especially when it comes to the theology of the pelvis.
Our popes since Pius XII have been anything but left-leaning.
"Why doesn't the Catholic Church reach out to its' own! "
Like the SSPX? But they don't count to you progressives, do they? Funny, you guys love your ecumenism, but only when it involves bringing in liberal Protestants.
The door swings both ways.
The door swings both ways. Those currently outside the fold of the Church that believe in the teachings of Christ are being offered a very charitable way to enter into the true Church. Likewise, those who pretend to accept the teachings of the Church yet really want an ecclesial community where every tenant of the faith can be voted on, where doctrine changes with the slightest breeze, are free to leave the true Church and settle in whatever ecclesial community fits whatever model you yourself wish to impose on the Church. Those Anglicans, an increasing number, who see the errors their community is entering into (especially the American branch) have been offered a generous lifeboat by the Vicar of Christ and successor of Peter. This is true ecumenism. Those advocates of a false ecumenism, indeed many who comment here, wish to form a church where all belief and practice is so watered down that we can all be one big jolly happy inclusive family where we believe and practice what we want, regardless of divine revelation and truth. It was telling that Kasper was kept far away from this thing; that brand of ecumenism has gotten nowhere--except the diluting of Catholic belief and identity. The ecumenism of Pope Benedict XVI, the true pope of Christian Unity, has brought us ever closer with the Eastern Orthodox Churches and now those Anglicans who believe the truth. I pray that the Holy Father will soon bring us into full and visible communion with the Eastern Lung of the true Church.
Will you guys drop papal
Will you guys drop papal infallibility and will the Bishop of Rome take on the title "First among equals"? Then don't hold your breath for full unity with the Eastern Orthodox. You only HOPE they believe your truth, they just couldn't deal with women and gays, OTHERWISE those dissenters would still be Anglican and you know it.
Really anonymous, how has B16
Really anonymous, how has B16 brought us closer? Has he been invited to Moscow? You don't know what you're talking about. We are no closer, the Orthodox do NOT recognize our Eucharist as valid no matter how B16 tries to take us back to his fantasy fourteenth century and the "church of the pope" as they fondly like to call us is illegal in their eyes. As far as I'm concerned that "Eastern Lung" has cancer and B16's attempt to bring back the SSPX will only metastasize cancer to the "Western Lung".
It would seem that Canterbury
It would seem that Canterbury should be more than happy to have Rome take these individuals who'd swim against the stream of reform off their hands, so that they can focus on more pressing matters without so much of the political wrangling and ever-present threat of schism that seems to have afflicted Anglicanism for three decades.
Rome, on the other hand, will be more than happy to bring into the flock these "right thinking" individuals who are content to toe the conservative Roman Catholic party line that has become such a part of the Post Paul VI era.
This is nothing but a "marriage of convenience" with suitable exchange of gifts and hand-shakes all 'round. Once it is done, we shall resume our regularly-scheduled sniping and hair-splitting. But in the mean time we'll look the other way while a generation or so of Anglican converts keep their married priests and elements of their culture.
Regarding Validity of Orders: does anybody really believe, at a time when Womenpriests are breathing down the Catholic Bishops' collective necks, that Rome is about to recognize the valid Apostolic Succession and hence Holy Orders of the very Anglican bishops who are apt to turn right around and ordain women and married men whose priesthood Rome would then have little alternative but to recognize as valid? Sometimes a pectoral cross is just a pectoral cross.
As a former Anglican myself,
As a former Anglican myself, I know that the right wing of the Anglican Communion (along with any sub-group of Catholic clergy) includes many, many closeted gay clergy, many so in love with the skirts and lace of their vestments that one might say that there are no female priests among them, but many female impersonators. It is so sad that gay clergy of so many Christian denominations engage in a furtive self-denial and self-hatred in order to maintain their ecclesial positions?
It's very sad and stupid at
It's very sad and stupid at the same time.
As a homosexual Catholic, I
As a homosexual Catholic, I find this sentiment very troubling. The implication is that gay Anglican clergy are only turning toward tradtionalism (and Rome), so they can wear dresses (liturgical conservatism), and engage in self-denial/self-hatred (unwillingness to accept women's ordination/gay marriage/openly (practiceing) gay clergy). The implication ultimately says that a same-sex attracted cleric's religious opinions are formed not by what he believes to be objectively true, but by vanity and self-denial. This is, therefore, a very serious, and very judgmental, implication, that should not be made lightly, considering our Lord's injunction to "judge not;" and this statement can also be construed as derogatory to homosexuals (implying exaggerated femeninity), and disrespect for the office of cleric. I do not mean to sound inflammatory, and perhaps I am reading too much into this, but I do not believe we have the ability to se into other people's souls so easily.
"absolutely null & utterly
"absolutely null & utterly void" - Pope Leo XIII on Anglican orders. These words are music to my ears! I like a person who doesn't mince words! What the Catholic Church needs today is another Leo XIII or maybe a paulte in the chair of Peter!
LOL, that didn't stop people
LOL, that didn't stop people from voting with their feet and going over to the Anglican Communion now did it? You rather they live a lie and PRETEND they are embracing all of Roman doctrine like so many are? A leaner, purer smaller church is what you are on the way to, if you aren't already there.
If you're an married Anglican
If you're an married Anglican priest, you can function/be ordained as a Catholic priest...meanwhile how many married CATHOLIC priests do we have who could help provide Eucharist to those Catholics who increasingly do not have access to daily communion because their parish doesn't even have Mass every day of the week? Of course, the Church is already designating withholding Eucharist from politicians...and Jesus ate with sinners...whose example is the Church supposed to be following?? And Peter was married, too...and Jesus knew it and made Peter the rock (faulty as it was) upon which He built "his" church...
I would assume that the only
I would assume that the only Anglicans who would "come over" to the Catholic church are those who wanted to be Catholic, or already were in spirit anyway. For an Anglican, or a Lutheran for that matter to join the Catholic church simply because of gay priests or gay marriages allowed in some of their churches, [which can act independently], is stupid. When you become Catholic you submit to the ultimate, and all-powerful authority of the magisterium of the church, and any vestige of independent, i.e. "protestant" independence flies right out the window. Whether the issues are abortion, birth control, or even independent thinking in regard to interpretation of scripture, you can say bye bye to all of that if you are to be in full communion with The Church. Also be prepared to be cajoled and guilt-tripped by your local bishop on how you are supposed to vote.
Well said, Mr. Wheeler. As
Well said, Mr. Wheeler. As one who left both the ranks of the RC church and subsequently the fraternity known as "lapsed Catholics", for Anglicanism, I see this initiative of Rome going nowhere. Most disaffected Anglicans, both in the USA and even more so in Africa, are NOT Anglo-Catholics. They are low church Protestants and/or evangelicals. The pray,pay,and obey thing doesn't work with them at all. They won't be lined up outside the apostolic palace in Rome.
Moreover, what is the "Anglican patrimony" to be allowed in the liturgy? Tacking on Anglican hymns to the Novus Ordo mass? Heck, that happened long ago in most English-speaking RC parishes. A few married priests until they die off? (It appears no new married priests are to be allowed). You can bet the SSPX, LC, and Opus Dei crowd have already bombarded Rome with missives denouncing any use of the Book of Common Prayer (even if abridged and bowdlerized)in any authorized liturgy. Doesn't sound very Anglican to me, and it may well be a still-born project, which will thrill the Catholic ultramontane clique. The real joke is on the Catholic far right who are overwhelmingly white Europeans, North Americans or aristocratic Latinos. We can argue dogma forever, but demographics are ruthless and unassailable.
In 30 years, the Anglican Communion and RC church will both be dominated by black and brown faces. Euro-centric philosophical battles will mean little. When the Christians of Africa are facing down militant Islam, do you right wingers really think that the Catholic bishop will turn to the Anglican bishop and say, away with you and your "invalid" orders?
Are not the intended
Are not the intended recipients of this "offer", the TAC, no longer in formal "communion" with the Anglican Communion?
If that is so, the invitation is to 'former Anglicans' ?
Yes, this should say "Former
Yes, this should say "Former Anglicans". Once you reach out to Rome to swallow papal infallibility you are no longer Anglican.
[Why could not all churches
[Why could not all churches and ecclesial communities currently separated from full communion with the Catholic church enter into that communion without sacrificing their own distinctive traditions -- liturgical, sacramental, spiritual, theological and canonical?]
Well, the answer is very simple and clear, we Roman Catholic Church is the Mother Churches of all the so call Christian denomination. Every single of the Protestant denomination(here refer to all non Catholic Churches)is break out from the Holy Mother the Church and that is Roman Catholic Church. Personally I cant see any issue if "they" want to come back to their Mother. So long as they repent and sincerely repent and make contrition for the past mistake. amen
Francis -from Penang-Malaysia
Funny, they wouldn't refer to
Funny, they wouldn't refer to this church as "Mother" of anything.
Since when are Anglicans (and
Since when are Anglicans (and Protestants in general) are on the same par as Catholics? That's like saying Father McBrien is on the same par with Pope Benedict. Despite what Father McBrien thinks, the Pope knows what he is doing, and Rowan Williams is avoiding the inevitable: the demise of Anglicanism.
Father McBrien's day is done
Father McBrien's day is done and he just sounds like an old seventies fogey.
The Church will never dance to his tune but will reach out to those who wish to embrace that Catholic and Apostolic faith such as traditional Anglicans. It wasn't long ago McBrien was telling us there was no chance that Cardinal Ratzinger could be elected. McBrien's gift of prophecy has always and will continue to be very limited.
Only someone like Fr. Richard
Only someone like Fr. Richard McBrien would perceive a simple exchange of gifts as an implicit recognition that "Rowan Williams possesses valid episcopal orders". This gift is similar to giving a wedding present to a Catholic couple who were married by a justice of the peace. There was no sacramental marriage, but one marks the occasion nonetheless. The Holy Father, in giving Archbishop Williams a pectoral cross, was merely marking the occasion of their meeting with a gift that he knew the archbishop would appreciate, all the less symbolic since it is not hard to obtain a pectoral cross; one can purchase one from any Catholic religious articles store.
Meanwhile, to Father's others ideas about reaching out to other ecclesial communities, I would welcome that move, so long as the Truth is not diluted or lost. Real ecumenism must address what divides us, not what unites us. Real ecumenism recognizes that there are areas of genuine disagreement that must be settled by those who wish to unite with Rome. The Roman Catholic Church, as has been taught and proclaimed for 2000 years, holds the fullness of revealed Truth, those who would wish to rejoin us must accept that, in certain areas and on certain issues, they are not correct and thus must accept the truth as proposed and taught by the Roman Catholic Church. Anything less is only superficial.
Clint, like it or not, there
Clint, like it or not, there is symbolism here. I myself think that the Pope's action casts some doubt on Pope Leo XIII's teaching. This teaching is under review by those who worship at the altar of ecumenism.
The Catholic teaching is clear & can't change, no matter the action of a Pope or some papal commission. The same applies to Paul VI & the ring. You as an orthodox Catholic need to view the papacy of JPII as well as that of Paul VI with some intellectual criticism.
Real ecumenism must address
Real ecumenism must address what divides us, not what unites us.
Perhaps you have "ecumenism" confused with "evangelism."
Real ecumenism recognizes that there are areas of genuine disagreement that must be settled by those who wish to unite with Rome.
Meaning, in this case, that those with theological and doctrinal diferences must give over, and meekly accept their errors?
That is not "Ecumenism!"
"Ecumenism" is about figuring out that certain issues and nuances aren't important enough to coompletely divide Christendom, or even people of Faith in general.
It is not "ecumenical" either to a) continually point out the error of others' ways or to b) make nice with the full intention of swooping in at some later time in order to "evangelize" (read "poach") the faithful of other sects.
"Ecumenism" implies a mutual respect and a sense of boundaries to which the constant drumming of "One True Church" by Roman Catholics is anathema.
Ecumenism is valid in only a
Ecumenism is valid in only a limited way. The example of Northern Ireland comes to mind with two groups of people each calling themselves Christian at each other's throats. Something is wrong here. On the other side of the coin is people like you & the whole ecumenical side of the Church trying to minimize differences.
The Real Presence in the Eucharist, the Sacrifice of the Mass, the veneration of Mary, the necessity for both faith & works when it comes to salvation, the primacy of the Pope to include his infallibility, the location of authority in the hierarchy, the importance of chastity defined as complete abstinence from sexual activity outside of marriage, the cult of the saints, the belief in the angelic choirs as superior to men, the belief in Purgatory, the belief that outside the Church there is no salvation, etc. are all beliefs which are central to Catholicism and are not accepted by some or all Protestants. These beliefs should not be downplayed in order to appease Protestants in the interest of ecumenism.
Let's be real - 1) Episcopal
Let's be real - 1) Episcopal priests in the USA are compensated - wages and benefits that- at rates far superior than their Roman brothers. 2) Episcopal priests are called by the congregation to serve them. The bishop is almost a rubber stamp. 3) The laity in the Episcopal plays a pivotal role in the governance of the local church, the diocese and the national church.
Sure, the worship is similar - but the differences are huge.
I suspect that once those Episcopal clergy and laity fully understand the cultural, governmental and financial differences - the numbers who stay Roman will be very small.
Having recently read a
Having recently read a pamphlet by a Presbyterian pastor which reaffirmed their belief that although we do not understand the actions of God, God has chosen to condemn the world population which is not Christian(the greatest percentage of the world population). How could beliefs like this be joined to the Church, even if they are not accepted by all denominations?
I don't think the ecumenical
I don't think the ecumenical perspective should be read into the new Anglican dispensation too much. It is something clearly welcomed by conservatives such as myself since it provides a safe haven from which orthodox Anglicans can flee the modern horrors of radical secular feminism & homosexuality accepted as a normative lifestyle in their very church. We all have to live in the world and be tolerant of those different from us but we need to keep a safe distance in order to save our souls.
There's way to much confusion
There's way to much confusion and contradiction in these shenanigans for me to see or think straight, notwithstanding the gay issue involved!
What a blow the the RC church's magisterial teaching which the Book of Common Prayer condemns as, well, being man-made, not divinely inspired. LOL!
And I am appalled by all those former "liberal" prelates who are now utterly conservative. That includes the pope and his predecessor as well as, apparently, Msgr. Levada the Grand Inquisitor (he was, after all, archbishop of San Francisco!)and even the author of "Jesus, the Christ" Walter Gasper who was sidestepped by the former as prefect of relations between Christians and has been spinning like mad and out of order about this sordid affair.
Like most progressie
Like most progressie Anglicans, Dr. McBride has his head in the sand. The progoressive Anglican church (i.e. TEC) is going no where fast and the membership numbers prove it. I was one for 36 years. I have many fond memories of Brothers and Sisters in Christ there.. But when I became Roman Catholic, I suddenly found myself in a worship service and world where Jesus Christ is proclaimed Lord of All constantly!. HE is OUR reason! I also do believe our dear Holy Father is trying to reach out to those poor souls, like I once was, to let them know they have a home in the MOTHER church! And YES - the consecrated elements at Holy Eucharist ARE the Precious Body and Blood of our dear Savior. If you don't believe that, then you have NO reason to receive Them. Not to be exclusive - but to be real -- we cannot be expected to give up our beliefs to accomodate others out of the need for "friendship". And I will NOT give up receiving my Lord every time I receive His Precious Body and Blood. I have many general Protestant relatives - they can't even comprehend the sanctity of Holy Eucharist - much less the profound experience of Holy Eucharist - see "Communion" as the LONG Sunday of the month!!! That's the Sundays they stay home! Bless their souls! It's a ME thing - not a God thing! Just read Crew's lastest ramblings about the Gay and Lesbian issues to realize none of it is about God. It is all about me -Me - ME!!!!! Jesus Christ is an after though!!! MYpleasure MUST be first.
Let us respect the true faith of the Holy Mother, Apostles, Saints ad Martyrs and realize it can NEVER change. Like it or not, the Roman Catholc Church IS the Mother Church - everyone else just left because they got mad over a "me- Me-ME" stuff! I invite you to come Home. We call ourselves Prodigals - We came home! Praise God we did!!!!
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