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PDF versionBishop Aquila's Outrageous Statement
by Michael Sean Winters on Dec. 23, 2011
Bishop Samuel Aquila of Fargo, North Dakota delivered remarks in the course of an interview with KFGO that are so outrageous as to boggle the mind. “People need to the understand that when a government essentially embraces atheism, which is what both communism and Nazism [did], that religious rights are going to be violated.” Huh?
First, when will people learn that analogies to the Nazis are always a bad idea. The evil Hitler inflicted on Europe is unique not in its scope – Stalin and Mao had as much blood on their hands – but in the purity of the evil Nazism achieved. The Nazis did not kill Jews to achieve some political goal, indeed, they often killed Jews whose talents would have been beneficial to the regime. The desire to exterminate an entire people simply because you think they should be exterminated does not warrant comparison with any other evil. Stalin killed kulaks to get their land. Mao killed entrepreneurs to capture their money and stamp out their autonomy. Hitler killed Jews because he wanted to exterminate them.
Second, Bishop Aquila needs to stop listening to Glenn Beck who sees the specter of communism everywhere, and thinks socialism and communism are the same thing and that communism and fascism are really similar to boot. After all, the Nazis called themselves the National Socialist Party. Alas, Mr. Beck’s narrative fails even a minimal standard of historical sophistication. And, such twisted readings of history led him to the kind of extreme remarks that proved too much even for Fox News. Sit with that phrase for a moment: too extreme for Fox News. Yet, here is the Bishop of Fargo, repeating this paranoid nonsense as if it were established history.
Third, when conservatives suggest the Obama administration is engaged in a “war on Catholics,” comments like Bishop Aquila’s remind us that the charge may have more to do with what psychologists call projection than anything else. If comparing the government to Nazis doesn’t count as throwing a bomb in the culture wars, I do not know what does. There are some bishops, mercifully very few of them, who are all about fighting a culture war, but it is hard to see what that has to do with preaching the Gospel.
Finally, I would point out that the USCCB has been engaged on multiple issues for some time now with the Obama administration, most obviously on the issue of conscience exemptions. But, you can forgive the President for thinking that if the bishops believe he is little different from a Nazi, negotiating with them is futile. I have not been shy about pointing out that religious freedom is threatened in today’s political and legal climate, but those threats are not of the same kind as the threats the communists and the fascists posed to the Church. There is a difference between issuing a mandate to cover contraception and systematically imprisoning and murdering clergy. HHS is not the gulag and the President is not acting in a way that merits comparison with totalitarians. Unfortunately, Bishop Aquila is speaking in a way that could not be better designed to make the administration throw up its hands, conclude that the bishops are irrevocably hostile and that nothing the administration says or does will convince the bishops otherwise. For the leaders and the staff at the USCCB, this is not what you want the administration thinking as they decide what to do about the conscience exemptions.
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N.B. I have called KFGO to ask if they will post the full text of the interview.
(h/t Rocco)
and we should be thankful
and we should be thankful this guy is only in Fargo.
Yes! As Mr. Winters points
Yes! As Mr. Winters points out we have to be careful about criticizing the Obama administration. If we say the wrong thing, if we're too loud, or too vociferous, or use too much hyperbole, they're going to cut back on our rights. If this bishop were more prominent than he is, the Obama administration might notice and punish us for it.
When I was in the Air Force
When I was in the Air Force there was a joke that if you messed up really, really bad, you would be sent to the base in Fargo.
Looks as if the same applies in the Catholic clerical ambition ladder.
If and when the full text is
If and when the full text is posted, please provide a hyperlink.
"Stalin and Mao had as much
"Stalin and Mao had as much blood on their hands – but in the purity of the evil Nazism achieved. The Nazis did not kill Jews to achieve some political goal, indeed, they often killed Jews whose talents would have been beneficial to the regime."
- Oh.
Well, I'm sure it was a great comfort to all the countless millions of Chinese, Russians, Ukrainians, Czechs, Poles, etc that were either machinegunned, starved or worked to death that at LEAST they weren't killed for racial reasons, and that Stalin's/Mao's/etc evil wasn't QUITE as 'pure' as the Nazis' according to some rather arbitrarily standards appealed to by an American internet columnist. Because that TOTALLY makes a difference.
Does Bishop Aquila mean to
Does Bishop Aquila mean to include the atheism of Ayn Randism or is her atheism "good" atheism. Was Aquila attempting to say that our present government is atheistic?
There has never been a U.S. administration headed by an atheist, and there has never been an atheisitc U.S. government. The U.S. has interpreted its constitution over the years in such a way that it tries to explicitly keep God and religion from entering into its public discourse in the interest of general freedom of religion. I think this is an impossibility and the goal really needs to be reassessed, but it does not constitute atheism.
A governemnt devoted to an ideology, such as nazism or communism, or a government devoted to one religiouys viewpoint, becomes a dictatorship. A government that tries to balance its peoples needs through a democratic process, albeit imperfectly, is not a dictatorship and is not "prone" to violating religious rights. The hope is always that reasonable discourse through the democratic process will lead to reasonable public policies. This process, being democratic, is always in flux and is always moving toward a pragmatic balance, which is what the current administration is trying to do. We as Catholics should help this along by providing a balanced reasonable voice based upon Christ, not upon the falsehoods of Glenn Beck et al.
The difference between the
The difference between the gulag and the HHS is only a matter of degrees. The militant atheists learned their lessons well from the Soviet Union, and, yes, Nazi Germany. They learned that simply doing away with religion overnight does not work -- people have a yearning for belief in something greater than themselves (as Augustine put it, "our hearts are restless until they rest in thee"). The Soviets could never eradicate religion overnight, people had too many fond memories of their religious upbringing, and too much was missing in their lives and in society for it work.
No, the militant atheists, within the Obama Administration and without, learned well. The key is to gradually erode religious liberty. Ban organized prayer in schools. Ban spontaneous prayer in schools. Ban prayer on the athletic field. Ban creches and Christmas trees in public areas. Attack religion in the Courts anywhere it is found, using, ironically, the First Amendment.
Identify religion with bitterness over the economy or immigration, as Obama did, saying, "And it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations,". Erode conscience protections in the law, gradually, but systematically.
Publicly mock religious values as Nancy Pelosi did, saying Catholics "have this conscience thing". Have liberal or progressive talk show hosts who are militant atheists (Mike Malloy) and moderate atheists (Alex Bennett) advance the agenda of the atheist left.
I could go on. The point is that people are not being imprisoned for their faith as yet, but the Bishop was right, when a culture embraces atheism, then freedom of religion quickly vanishes. The United States of America is in the process of being denuded of its heritage and its culture, by leftist radicals who are militantly anti-capitalism, anti-Constitutional government, and anti-God. The battle lines are drawn...it's just a question of how long it will take before the war starts.
Probably the most strange
Probably the most strange thing Clint has yet written: "The point is that people are not being imprisoned for their faith as yet . . ."
In fact, can Clint cite ANY circumstance in which this judicious administration has done ANY of these things he lists, beginning with: "Ban organized prayer in schools. Ban spontaneous prayer in schools. Ban prayer on the athletic field. Ban creches and Christmas trees in public areas. Attack religion in the Courts anywhere it is found, using, ironically, the First Amendment. Identify religion with bitterness over the economy or immigration . . ."
Michael, thank you for
Michael, thank you for commenting on the outrageous. At the same time I felt
you might have disowned the false issue of freedom of conscience. Canon law
simply does not recognise a collective conscience. There is only the conscience of each individual person. If we dealt with this we could easily see the straw man. Our Hierarchy is trying, somewhat desperately, to coopt our individual conscience, pretending that the Catholic Conscience is under threat. Again, no such thing as a Catholic Conscience. There may well be many
things the hierarchy consider to be musts, but they all fall sooner or later to the conscience of the individual. By far the best statement on conscience came from none other than Ratzinger himself when writing in his better days.
I do not accept nor do I want any cleric speaking for my conscience. A collective conscience would be a totalitarian idea. Our conscience is about our faith, we do not need any pseudo certainty from our clerics. I wish them all Peace and Enlightenment as we gather to Celebrate the Birth of Jesus. We
need loving pastors not power hungry autocrats.
Nollag fé Shona 's fé Mhaise Dhuit.
TomC
And sometimes when
And sometimes when governements get religion, tyranny,equivalent to that of Mao,Stalin, and Hoxha also results. Bishops Aquila's statement is true,but sometimes the opposite also results. Prime example -- England under Henry VIII, Mary and Elizabeth. Up till the names of Stalin, Henry and elizabeth were probably the worse mass executioners of all time. And don't forget Oliver Cromwell,either. And how many psychopaths,even in our own time have used religion to justify their own cruel rages. Look at some religious superiors today.
The bishop apparently did not
The bishop apparently did not say that our government is communist or Nazist, but gave them as examples of atheistic governments that trampled on human rights, including the right to worship freely. I'm not sure I agree with everything he says, but why do you think he doesn't have the same right to express his views that you or I have? And how do you know he's listening to Glenn Beck? I think a lot of people think that religion has been under attack for many years, no? And your comment about the bishops thinking he is a Nazi is just plain dumb. Come on, Michael!Lay off the eggnog as well as the exaggerations. That's what Beck does.
Your distinction between the
Your distinction between the Nazis, Stalinists and Maoists is laughable. The people Mao and Stalin killed ALSO had talents the regime could have used. Their victims were ALSO killed just for the sake of killing them - after all, their money, their lands, their valuables could simply have been requisitioned without also taking their lives. But no... Mao and Stalin took their lives as well.
"[Anyone who] thinks socialism and communism are the same thing and that communism and fascism are really similar to boot [aren't sophisticated]."
Every decent historian understands that Marx was insane. Marxist distinctions between socialism and communism were never observed in the real world - there is no useful distinction in application, but only in the ravings of the pseudo-intellectuals who followed Marx into madness.
The only serious difference between national socialism and international socialism was the emphasis on state: the national socialists (Germans and Italians) had just gotten their nations united for the first time in centuries and didn't want to give up their new-found unity, while the international socialists had grown tired of nation-states and wanted them to wither away.
Bishop Aquila is absolutely right - the common theme among mass-murderers like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, Che Guevera and the countless madmen like them is their atheism. To say this can only be considered "bomb-throwing" if you consider the truth too volatile for the masses to handle.
The Church negotiated with Hitler.
You say that if Aquila keeps this up, Obama cannot negotiate with the USCCB or that he might throw up his hands in despair and walk away. That is, you imply Obama is less sane than Hitler, less capable of negotiating with the Church than even Adolf was.
While I'm sure most decent Catholics agree with you on that point, I don't see how your statement constitutes less "bomb-throwing" than Aquila's.
Our Jewish brothers do not go
Our Jewish brothers do not go into politics with the conviction "lets' see if we can be nice and compromising and maybe we can get half a loaf." They go in with the conviction that they have rights and interests and are ready to mobilize their community if the politicians don't listen.
What MSW urges us to is preemptive surrender.
The question should not be how a politician reacts. It should be how Catholics will react -- and whether that politician reckons with being an ex-politician.
JG (Juan Gabriel is what we
JG (Juan Gabriel is what we who live in the penumbra of Ciudad Juarez hear in these initials) assumes we Catholics be of one political mind, when we clearly are not, as evidenced by wojtyla amputating viciously our most promising wing (in fact in an unrelentingly ideological manner described well here by Michael), or evidenced in my differnces with what Michael often appears to imply as defining the Distinctly Catholic.
J, do not speak for me, a truly practicing Roman Catholic . . .
Did not Jesus surrender pre-emptively in the Garden?
I can now understand why only
I can now understand why only males are ordained. 99% of women would not be so stupid!
Sure we would. The attempt to
Sure we would. The attempt to deify women is no better than the attempt to demonize us. And your comments without reading the interview are something most people would try to avoid.
He and Chicago's George must
He and Chicago's George must be getting the same Glenn Beck talking points memos.
And who are the Jews of these
And who are the Jews of these atheistic governments? How about babies in the womb? And to reach further, how about the souls God had intended for the babies contraception prevented?
“... how about the souls God
“... how about the souls God had intended for the babies contraception prevented?"
That is a very interesting question. Yet, as no soul had yet been connected to an embryo, I don't think the Church has an official answer here.
On the other hand, can anyone tell us what the Church teaches about the souls of the babies who become the un-born-dead?
If anyone thinks they know the answer, I would like to hear it.
Anyone?
"N.B. I have called KFGO to
"N.B. I have called KFGO to ask if they will post the full text of the interview."
Then maybe you should have waited before writing anything. From the brief clip:
(1) Bishop Aquila did not say the situation today was fully analogous to the Nazis or communism. He said that embracing atheism leads to the suppression of religious liberty, as it did in Nazi and communist regimes.
(2) The bishop did not equate Nazism and communism, or say that they were similar other than their embrace of atheism.
(3) The bishop did not say that there were Nazis or communists around, only a growing acceptance of atheism.
(4) He did not say that the threats today are the same kind of threats under Nazism and communism.
From the clip and quotes, not even the KFGO's headline looks accurate.
I wonder what religous
I wonder what religous liberties were actually suppressed against the German Catholic Church, when the hierarchy rushed to line up in support of Hitler.
Franz Jagerstatter was a discouraged anomaly, unrecognized, rejected.
Saint Kolbe was also unique.
And in Cuba we find the Church is not repressed. See our Distinctly Catholic documentarian Michael Moore's interview with a Cuban nun in his Sicko.
It may be worth looking at
It may be worth looking at the collection of documents on church-state relations published in 1945 by Fr Johann Neuhäusler, who had spent several years in a concentration camp because he was a canon of Munich Cathedral and a close aid of Cardinal Faulhaber (likewise imprisoned was the editor of the diocesan newspaper; and the highly popular head of the Marian Congregation, Bl. Fr Rupert Mayer, had been banished by the Gestapo to a remote monastery where he was not allowed any pastoral work), whereas the publishers of Cardinal Faulhaber's sermons had their company confiscated and the Cardinal (or was this another cardinal, I do not remember the details) 'only' had his house trashed by an outbreak of 'popular wrath')
Just to give few out of many examples of suppression of religious freedom: several priests and lay-people were thrown into concentration camps when they peacefully protested against the goverment's decision to replace crosses in the class-rooms by images of Hitler. I still remember an elderly priest telling in a sermon how he as a young curate was hiding a pastoral letter in the Tabernacle in the hope that the Gestapo would not find it there; and naturally he did not how long he would walk in freedom after reading it out on next Sunday's Mass.
Thanks for posting this. Too
Thanks for posting this. Too bad, we are entitled to our opinion but we are not entitled to our own facts.
The US government is
The US government is embracing atheism? Then how is Christmas a federal
holiday? Believe it or not, atheists have religious rights in this country to not believe. And the government will protect their rights to access contraceptives with their health insurance. Even if they happen to work at a Catholic hospital.
") Bishop Aquila did not say
") Bishop Aquila did not say the situation today was fully analogous to the Nazis or communism. He said that embracing atheism leads to the suppression of religious liberty, as it did in Nazi and communist regimes."
And I'd argue that embracing any "ism" can lead to the suppression of religious liberty. That's why we have that pesky First Amendment.
Bob
If the Bishop did not want to
If the Bishop did not want to imply the above, than why did he mention theses issues or phrase them in such a way? I can't think of any other reason than to allow the listener to make the connection he is not stating, but leading those who are listening towards. And that I find very, very dishonet, dangerous and irresponsponsible.
Someone needs to inform the
Someone needs to inform the Bishop that Hitler considered himself a faithful Catholic. He was not an atheist. He delusionally believed he was the Great Catholic Monarch whose line would rule in Christ's name for a thousand years of peace. I suspect Rick Perry is laboring under the evangelical equivalent of this delusion.
Someone also needs to tell him that secularism and atheism are not the same thing. Secularism means that society is not subject to the dictates of Christendom, which allows the Church to veto the actions of Catholic kings and princes or declare them unfit to rule. Christendom is not compatible in a constitutional republic, where the divine right to rule comes from the free will of voters rather than the dictates of the Church.
Atheism should make the Bishop uncomfortable. Modern atheists justify their position in part from abuses of power by the hierarchy. All bishops should pay attention to what they say and change their behavior accordingly, especially before telling us how to vote.
Hitler gave up the Faith.
Hitler gave up the Faith. What parish did he attend? Who was his pastor. The Nazis actively opposed the Catholic Faith. They were more occultist than atheists however. The commies were the atheists.
Hitler did not consider
Hitler did not consider himself a Catholic of even a Christian. Tell us, if he did, how often did he go to Mass? Did he have a priest appointed as the Fuhrer-chaplain?
Hitler was no more Catholic
Hitler was no more Catholic then you are. He was an avowed atheist who hated the Catholic Church and planned to eliminate it as soon as he could. Rather like many modern atheists! Atheists are responsible for over 100 million dead in the last century.
It seems that we in the U.S.
It seems that we in the U.S. have never received a correct accounting of all the dead people of the countries of Afganistan and Iraq that we killed in the two wars we have been conducting since 9-11. In addition, the injured, maimed and displaced of those countries are never counted as being harmed by our actions. The service men and women who lost their lives in these wars now number more than those killed on 9-11, again not to mention those terribly wounded who will suffer for the rest of their lives. President George W. Bush also signed at least 152 death warrents as the Governor of Texas, and even had the temerity to joke about some of those executed. He was proposed as our RIGHT TO LIFE PRESIDENT. SURE HE WAS!!!!! I think I prefer the measured actions of our present Chief Executive, who has drawn down our troops in these countries and seeks to establish better and more peaceful solutions to world problems. He realizes that we are a PLURALISTIC SOCIETY and so all do not profess the same beliefs in God/ or not. We are not now in the U.S. PREVENTED IN ANY WAY from observing our faith practices and rules, but we DO NOT have the RIGHT to IMPOSE THEM on OTHERS. I hope in the election to come we citizens do not seek to elect a PASTOR IN CHIEF as that is in violation of our CONSTITUTION. Our Nation does NOT have a STATE RELIGION.
Joan, ridiculous. You compare
Joan, ridiculous. You compare our response to Islamic terrorism to the mass murders of psychotic atheist regimes? I remember the phrase Lenin used "useful idiots." We imposed democracy on Germany and Japan. It worked pretty well. In Islamic nations there is no freedom of religion and they do have state religions. Obama's response to that has been bland at best. He bows to them and to China, where over 70 million died. He started a war with Libya and I didn't see you complain. Wake up.
Greetings from the one who is
Greetings from the one who is WIDE AWAKE and certainly not an IDIOT. You have swallowed the republican party kool aid and gallons of it by the tenor of your reply. I am sorry you have such an intense dislike of our President. I find him a loving family man, one who loves his country and seeks to do the best he can in a PLURALISTIC society. We did not elect him our PASTOR IN CHIEF as in this country we do not have a state religion, though the religious right keeps howling that they are alway sooooo neglected and after all this is a christian country. Seems they never read the constitution even though they brag they are wrapped up in it. I will work and support Pres. Obama's bid for reelection as those running against him are the biggest liars, panderers,and most ignorant people offered for our choices in the opposing party. We have suffered too long with their disgraceful supervision of our nation and the horrendous effects of their dereliction of duty such as the IMMORAL war in Iraq. A war declared immoral by JPII
I suspect he may be trying to
I suspect he may be trying to talk his way out of Fargo. No such luck.
Glenn Beck is either a
Glenn Beck is either a dedicated liar or literally an idiot. I am sorry to learn that a Bishop talks well of him or otherwise apes his talk. As a once-upon-a-time student of comparative political and economic systems, I am certainly familiar with the distinctions between Nazi and Soviet systems, and the distinctions between unrestrained capitalism, socialism and communism, and for that matter the distinctions between all of the foregoing and the New Deal here in the US. Either Mr Winter's referred-to people are major liars, or they are ignorant of such matters and distinctions.
I wonder sometimes if a college degree in politics, economics, business, or some such real world discipline, should not be a pre-requisite for entry into seminary, of if seminary should not be extended by a year or more to provide training in such topics from people knowledgable in the same. Running a huge parish, which appears to be in the future of most priests in a major population center with all sorts of community and national issues, is not purely a theological concern, and the potentially interesting speculation about Jesus visiting with one in this time and place respecting this time and place requires some genuine understanding of how this time and place functions.
"I am sorry to learn that a
"I am sorry to learn that a Bishop talks well of (Glenn Beck) or otherwise apes his talk."
You did not "learn" that. The bishop never said anything about Glenn Beck or said anything like Glenn Beck. Winters has twisted a badly worded headline regarding an interview he hasn't even read.
So many mean articles these
So many mean articles these days.
I have two thoughts for the author:
1. There are no arguments in this article, merely assertions.
2. Most of Mr. Winter's assertions don't even address the bishops quote head on. They are irrelevant.
Let's analyze the bishop's quote next to all of Mr. Winter's assertions:
Bishop's Quote: "..when a government essentially embraces atheism, which is what both communism and Nazism [did], that religious rights are going to be violated"
Assertion 1: Analogies to the nazis are always a bad idea.
Ok, sir. Don't merely say this. Explain why the bishop's specific comparison is bad idea. I'll give you a big hint: the bishop assumes (quite rationally) that the nazi regime was an atheistic regime, and that current governments tend to be atheistic. You don't show that this specific comparison is invalid.
Assertion 2: Bishop Aquila needs to stop listening to Glenn Beck. You go on to say that Glenn Beck sees no difference between communism and socialism etc..
This second assertion is agonizingly weak for 2 reasons.
First, this is merely an ad hominem argument. You attack the bishop and not his point!
Second, the bishop in his quote does not conflate communism and socialism! He doesn't say they are the same, kind sir! He merely says they have atheism in common. And atheism is dangerous. This is not a parroting of Glenn Beck.
Assertion 3:
Here I loose interest.
I urge you, Mr. Winters, first make an effort to give serious arguments.
The assertions you do make do not directly address the bishops quote.
Also, remember that Bishop Aquila is a successor of the apostles. Even if you vehemently disagree with him, make your points with some charity. If that is too much, at least with some tact.
Lastly, let's pray for him! C'mon baby! Let's goo!!
warmly,
anonymous
to argue one must present
to argue one must present evidence. Neither you, this bishop of Fargo, nor mostly Michael, do so, reducing your assertions to the pseudo-authority fallacy.
There is no evidence our President is atheist, and every evidence to the contrary.
Although a more recent speech is even more explicit, developing an even deeper theological viewpoint, here is the closing to his address at the recent dedication of the Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King Jr.'s monument in Washington DC:
"OBAMA: As tough as times may be, I know we will overcome. I know there are better days ahead. I know this because of the man towering over us. I know this because all he and his generation endured. We are here today in a country that dedicated a monument to that legacy. And so with our eyes on the horizon and our faith squarely placed in one another, let us keep striving. Let us keep struggling. Let us keep climbing toward that promised land of a nation and a world that is more fair and more just and more equal for every single child of God. Thank you. God bless you. And God Bless the United States of America."
as transcribed at
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1110/16/sotu.02.html
to believe our President atheist is to be a birther . . .
LOL! I am not making an
LOL!
I am not making an argument, sir! I was just critiquing the article's attack of the bishop's quote.
Your absolutely right about obama not being an atheist. So a successful article would maybe speak to this point!!! Please, charles, please.
Even arguing from this point would be silly. The bishop says something about the atheism of the current "government" . Last I checked "obama" does not equal "government".
So your point is doubly moot. Enjoy christmas and pick up a logic textbook.
warmly,
anonymous
"Second, the bishop in his
"Second, the bishop in his quote does not conflate communism and socialism! He doesn't say they are the same, kind sir! He merely says they have atheism in common."
Since when are socialists by definition atheists? Go back and review the Acts of the Apostles! It looks like to me that there was a whole lot of socialism going on back then with regards to how the early Christian communities organized themselves and pooled their assets.
yes. I'm sorry. I meant
yes. I'm sorry. I meant communism and nazism. That is what the bishop said. I accidentally slipped in socialism because the author accused the bishop of, like glenn beck, equating the socialism and communism. But the bishop's quote of course does not explicitly say socialism.
Thank you! And my error!
I most certainly will
I most certainly will "warmly" pray for this Archbishop, that he may recognize the moral wrong of his words. Again, why do conservative Catholics, right-wing Christians, Fox News anchor boys and babes, and Mr. Beck ignore the 8th Commandment? Read the Catholic Catechism! Just because you believe an action, policy, position is wrong or against the Teachings, does not grant carte-blanche to vilify, distort, disparage. This, of course is true for everyone. The commenter on another page in the past who claimed the Pope is pro-Ayn Rand, and others who sneer at Benedict are also guilty of this facile fault. Anonymous is correct to separate assertions from actual words, but specious in defending the specious use of labels by the Bishop. The "Successor of the Apostles" status brings a greater responsibility for one's words. Matt. 12:36-37: "For every idle word you speak, you will render an account, for by your words will you be justified, by your words condemned."
Blessings of Christmas and prayers for all,
Catherine
Michael, if you think that
Michael, if you think that liberal secularists, like Obama, do not want to drive the Catholic Church out of the public square then you are out of your mind. Obama USED people like yourself during the election. Now his true colors are revealed. He is working to force the Catholic Church to act against its own teachings and conscience. Religious accommodation is expendable to Obama. The only reason you are outraged is that you share much of Obama's agenda. You are on the other side of the culture war. There is hostility in the culture wars, but it is not emanating from the Church. We are simply defending our rights and our right to exist. Notice how you relate conscience exemptions to what the administration thinks of us. So we are to be meek and curry favor with the powers that be and avoid being "prophetic?" How about the idea that conscience exemptions are a natural and constitutional right that should not depend on whether or not Obama is angry with us? Bravo to Bishop Aquila for "speaking the truth to power."
Whom did our President choose
Whom did our President choose as his Vice Presidential candidate, J?
Joe Biden, Roman Catholic.
If to you this is evidence of his "driv(ing) the Catholic Church out of the public square then you are out of your mind"
and no better than a birther.
Willful ignorance on your
Willful ignorance on your part. You can call yourself a Catholic, so long as you don't act like a Catholic. Biden's position as an abortion proponent is well known.
Mr. scanlon supports many
Mr. scanlon supports many Catholic politicians, but limits his support to those who are bloodthirsty supporters of abortion. There are many Democrats who fit his criteria.
Father, given that about 90%
Father, given that about 90% or more of the Catholic women in the US have used contraception at some time in their lives, I would say that the only consciences being "violated" are those of the clergy who supposedly don't need the contraception to begin with!
With the number of children
With the number of children fathered by "vowed celibates" over the years, maybe all good heterosexual priests SHOULD be issued with contraceptive devices - and urged to use them.
I don't think Obama is
I don't think Obama is actually attempting to force the church's hand in these conscience issues. I think he is doing something quite different. If the catholic church's various social agencies cannot abide by federal regulations (whatever they may be), then those agencies will lose contracts to provide the services, and others will step in. It's a competitive environment and may the best organization win.
-Biden isn't much of a
-Biden isn't much of a Catholic. He would never be convicted of it. It certainly doesn't factor into any decision I have seen him make. Obama picked him because he needed a non-entity who was no threat. He fits the bill.
-Contraception is morally wrong according to Catholic teaching. Now the government is trying to make us offer it and pay for it. We will close our hospitals first. Do you remember the "Dissent is Patriotic" slogan? Or was that just for liberals?
-It isn't about the "best" organization. It is about isolating the Catholic Church and ultimately forcing us to join the culture of death.
"We will close our hospitals
"We will close our hospitals first."
WE??? WE???? WE????????? How many hospitals do YOU own, Father? None I venture. How many hospitals in the US does the USCCB own? None! Zero! Zilch! Nada! I have it on pretty good authority regarding the the holding company of my Catholic hospital that the sisters would NEVER close our community hospital, the only hospital in our community with the next closest one 35 miles away. Rather, they would go the way of St Joseph's in Phoenix, or they would sell the hospital to a solvent buyer, or they would cede it to a community board to run as a non profit community hospital. But by NO MEANS will it be closed.
Father, you can go right ahead and "close" all the Catholic hospitals you want to. But only in your dreams. If the bishops withdraw their recognition, then so be it. But the end result will be the end of "Catholic" health care in America. But the Catholic approach to health care in America will live on in those institutions, like St Joseph's Hospital in Phoenix, who smile and say, "Thank you, it was nice working with you." And then move on to do the work of Jesus AS BEST AS THEY CAN WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF THE LAW while more likely than not breathing a sigh of relief that they will never have to be asked to obey an meddling fool like Bp Olmsted ever again.
Pelosi, Sibelius, Sotomayor,
Pelosi, Sibelius, Sotomayor, Solis, also all Catholics
like Joe Biden.
Maybe those of us who are
Maybe those of us who are Catholic and WOMEN are really EXTREMELY TIRED of having MEN tell us how to use our reproductive organs. Members of our gender are baptized into the RCC and then told to sit on a bench as the MEN WILL DECIDE WHAT WE CAN AND CANNOT DO WITH OUR BODIES. Thanks a lot!!!!! Your culture of death mantra is a STUPID slogan as you consider only unborn, potential persons and the brain dead to be of value. If someone is living on this earth as the Republican party says "YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN. Hope you watched the debates where they cheered for the executions,people left to die in the street if they had no insurance and abuse of our service personel who are homosexual. Some culture of LIFE!!!!!!!
Charles, they are a
Charles, they are a disgrace.
Catholic Phy., is your hospital the one where a baby was executed with the approval of one of those sisters? You don't own the hospital. I suspect that if you had a choice between losing your license or murdering babies at the command of the Obamacare program then you would happily do the abortions. But the bishops have been clear that they will not permit this at Catholic hospitals.
Joan, it isn't men who tell you not to kill unborn babies. It is God. Don't talk about life while you defend killing babies before they are born.
Funny that I CANNOT find
Funny that I CANNOT find anywhere in the words of Jesus any reference to sex or abortion. If we as women become pregnant we consult with our doctors concerning our health and wellbeing and then decide what we will accept as the proper care of OUR LIVES. NOTE WELL OUR LIVES. We are the living persons aware of what is happening to OUR BODIES. GET that OUR BODIES!!!!! We have as I was taught in all my years of CATHOLIC school the right to make our own conscience decisions. YOU do not get to do that for ME. Say what you will but I will make my choices according to MY CONSCIENCE. It has been well informed. You on the contrary have lived a life without sex and a family so to me you and all other clergy of Rome have NO STANDING in the conversation. YOU will NEVER have to make any such choice for your own survival. How fortunate for your gender!!!!!
Father, my hospital is in
Father, my hospital is in Oregon. Did I not state that a company run by religious sisters owns our hospital? Nobody is talking about forcing INDIVIDUALS to do something they find to be immoral. But I can assure you that the public, both Catholic and non-Catholic, will not tolerate a situation where they have no access to contraceptives should the Catholic health system be their only access to care in a quasi-public healthcare system put forward by Obama.
Likewise, until Roe v Wade is reversed or a constitutional amendment is passed and ratified, abortion will be legal and available. Catholic hospitals will be able to participate in health plans as they choose to do so, but they will have no right to dictate what coverage that is available for their employees. Rather, they would do well to convert their employees by persuasion and not by fiat.
From the large degree of
From the large degree of outrageous and idiotic statements that I hear coming from the "Catholic church" these days, I think that it SHOULD be driven from the public square. Driven by those sheople who are finally waking up to the orthotoxic nonsense that is spewed forth regularly by the promoters and beneficiaries of the Boyz Club status quo.
Out, damned spot! Out, I say! One- two -why then 'tis time to do't. Hell is murky. Fie, my lord, fie! --- What need we fear who knows it, when none can call our power to account? Yet who would have thought the old man to have had so much blood in him?
Mr. Winters, I find your
Mr. Winters,
I find your measuring of the purity of evil disconcerting -
"The desire to exterminate an entire people simply because you think they should be exterminated does not warrant comparison with any other evil. Stalin killed kulaks to get their land. Mao killed entrepreneurs to capture their money and stamp out their autonomy. Hitler killed Jews because he wanted to exterminate them."
Mao and his cohorts didn't just kill entrepreneurs (and intellectuals & artists) because of what they had. He killed them for who they were. And the manner of the murders was often unspeakably cruel and horrific -- that is, they were purely evil. I recommend that you read "Beijing Coma", the novel by Ma Jian that describes some of the horrors of the Cultural Revolution (a son forced to bury his father alive; villagers compelled to eat the flesh of the local leading citizens). And only unreconstructed Stalinists would deny the sadistic terrors that marked the Soviet purges.
I don't mean to be flippant, but Mao and Stalin weren't simply engaging in "business" like Michael Corleone. They were involved in unadulterated evil. Comparisons are apt. I'd wager that Stalin and Mao are in the same circle of hell as Hitler.
Regards,
Frank Gibbons
Frank, where's
Frank, where's Nixon?
Reagan?
Cheney?
Mike Winter's outrageous
Mike Winter's outrageous blog. You have to be one of those liberal so-called catholics I've heard about.
The bishop is 100% correct.
"N.B. I have called KFGO to
"N.B. I have called KFGO to ask if they will post the full text of the interview."
Then maybe you should have waited before writing anything. From the brief clip:
(1) Bishop Aquila did not say the situation today was fully analogous to the Nazis or communism. He said that embracing atheism leads to the suppression of religious liberty, as it did in Nazi and communist regimes.
(2) The bishop did not equate Nazism and communism, or say that they were similar other than their embrace of atheism.
(3) The bishop did not say that there were Nazis or communists around, only a growing acceptance of atheism.
(4) Finally, he did not say that the threats today are the same kind of threats under Nazism and communism.
It appears as though the KFGO story and the headline is misinterpreting the statement.
The interview appears to have been about the bishops' column in the diocesan paper. That can be found here:
http://www.fargodiocese.org/news/December2011/DecBishopsColumn.pdf
true dat.
true dat.
Your point seems to be that
Your point seems to be that we have to be very, very, very careful about the way we talk about the Obama administration or it's going to start taking our rights away. I think your attack on the Obama administration is more telling than what the bishop said. You're testifying from personal knowledge. You know these people.
The only thing stopping Obama
The only thing stopping Obama from killing Catholics en masse is the second amendment to the constitution. If we couldn't fight back he'd treat us no differently then he treats babies in the womb.
Spreading slander is a sin.
Spreading slander is a sin. Go to confession early and often!
My first reaction was, "How
My first reaction was, "How did this guy get to be a bishop?" My second reaction was, ""Of course he got to be a bishop. He's so ignorant, narrow-minded and bigoted, he's probably on track to be an archbishop, eventually with a red hat!" It is disgraceful that the USCCB has turned truth on it's head in a spasm of Orwellian newspeak, demanding that the bishop's ideological agenda be foisted on a people whose Bill of Rights guarentees freedom of religion.
Actually, what's disgraceful
Actually, what's disgraceful is that people make comments without reading the text of the interview.
The good bishop is so focused
The good bishop is so focused on hate, that he fails to see he is nothing but a pon for the real anti christian movement in our country. Money, power, greed, the big three. What organization could come up with Ginrich, Perry, Trump, Bachman, Palin, need I go on.
He had a chance to show real christian leadership, with a backing of Health reform, but he sat on his hinder, and went goose stepping with his alta's, while the real christians in the Catholic faith, the Sisters, backed health care for all Americans (not free healthcare I remind you). So good bishop, while I'm celebating Mass this Christmas, you can focus on your hate of people who don't share your blinded ideals.
Where do bishops go for confession?
where the barber goes for a
where the barber goes for a haircut?
Winters - duh -
Winters - duh - http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2011/12/speaking-of-dictatorships....
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