The Independent News Source
NCR on Kindle - NCR classifieds - YouTube - Twitter - Facebook - Email Alerts - RSS
PDF versionWho knew an Irish seminary could be so much like a prison?
by Eugene Cullen Kennedy on Jan. 19, 2012
NCR received a letter from Msgr. Hugh G Connolly, president of Saint Patrick’s College Maynooth, the national seminary of Ireland. Msgr. Connolly objected to this web column by Eugene Kennedy.
Msgr. Connolly requested the opportunity to respond to Kennedy’s column. To meet that request, I am printing in full Msgr. Connolly’s written statement that gives his account of the changes at the college: Maynooth seminary head objects to Kennedy’s portrayal
Dennis Coday,
NCR Editor
-------------------------------------------
In a story likely to be unsurpassed as what psychologists term an "unobtrusive measure" of what is wrong with the Catholic church in Ireland, its venerable national seminary at Maynooth has decided, according to The Irish Catholic, to "separate the seminary environment from the wider university community."
Perhaps it is modeled on the new television series "Alcatraz," in which ghostly former inmates return to the famous prison that is now a cold and empty symbol of the golden age of isolating big-time gangsters like Al Capone from the world they might harm. It was called "the Rock," a nickname given to many seminaries that flourished in a roughly parallel golden age of isolating small-fry seminarians from the world that might harm them.
That was the pre-Vatican II world in which seminarians were prepared for working among men and women by such spurn-the-world spiritual ideals as the famous one from the Imitation of Christ: "As often as I have been among men, I have returned less a man."
Seminaries from what the "Reformers of the Reform" view as a Golden Age were, as a waggish priest friend observed, designed in the "early penal style." The recent sale of a Michigan seminary to be converted into a prison does not then surprise us. Old-fashioned seminaries, like traditional jails, were built in remote places with thick walls that enclosed the open, easily supervised spaces in which the residents could circulate during specified periods. (The fact that the seminary referred to them as the cloister walk and the prison termed them the yard did not really differentiate them much from each other.)
There were also limited visiting hours and, while prisoners may have received cakes with files baked into them with which to plan escapes, seminarians were reminded of the dead-letter character of their confinement by being the final recipients of the fruitcakes that had been circulating untouched for many seasons.
NCR: February 17-March 1, 2012
Subscribe to NCR to get all the news and special features that aren't always available online. In this issue:
- Conscience Roundup
Hear what theologians, commentators, and our editors have to say about the contraception mandate
- Special Section: Religious Life
Work of missioners, past and future; African meetings; and more
- Tribute to a Peacemaker
New York's Pax Christi fetes Daniel Berrigan
Of course, seminarians did not bang their cups on the tables as the inmates did in prison movies from the same era, and they did not whisper to each other, "Pass it on, there's a break tonight." Seminarians carried out their own minor subversive activities, such as reading newspapers, which was a punishable offense if discovered by the warden -- I mean, the rector -- who was charged with keeping the seminarians from learning much, if anything, about the world they were supposedly being trained to serve.
Apparently the Irish bishops, whose judgment has been questionable in recent years, have decided the best way to train priests, some of whom are tragically in real prisons for sexually molesting children, is to give them a prison-like experience during their training years. To that end, "separate doors have already been installed in the main cloister to partition the seminarians' living quarters from the rest of the campus to which only members of the seminary community now have keys."
In addition and at no small expense, "a new distinctive entrance to the seminary has also been constructed at the back of the building." Monsignor Hugh Connolly, Maynooth's warden -- I mean, rector -- says he is "trying to get the balance right between the need for the seminary to be a distinctive prayerful community and ensure that the seminarians have all the benefits that the Maynooth campus has to offer."
Connolly confirms he is "bringing forth a proposal to the trustees of the college to create a separate dining room for the seminary community." Is it only a coincidence that they have trustees in prisons as well?
In short, the Irish bishops think they are solving a problem whose roots can be traced back to the isolation from the healthy experiences with others that characterized the supposed golden age before Vatican II spoiled everything by reminding the church that its whole purpose was to embrace the sinful world and relieve its suffering rather than to push it away like a leper whose suffering might contaminate it.
Secular comes from the Latin saeculum, which means "age" or "time." Secular priests, such as those to be trained at Maynooth, are meant to be men of their time, men of their age. Priests cannot do that successfully by being shielded from or estranged from their age by keeping them from healthy contacts with the people to whom they are called to dedicate their lives. This step backward, however, is in accord with the reform of the reform that, in countless ways beyond this careless rebuilding of seminary walls, is trying to lead the church back into an age that has less reality to it than the Oz of the children's story.
Or maybe there is another purpose to this sealing the seminarians from contacts with the lay students. The latter are not the dangerous ones; they are the ones who need to be protected with stout walls and strict rules from the seminarians who, if they turn out like many of their predecessors, may abuse them in a desperate search to complete the psychosexual development that was stunted in the kind of closed seminary system that was the problem and that the Irish bishops think is the cure.
[Eugene Cullen Kennedy is emeritus professor of psychology at Loyola University, Chicago.]
|
Editor's note: We can send you an email alert every time Kennedy's column, Bulletins from the Human Side," is posted to NCRonline.org. Go to this page and follow directions: Email alert sign-up. If you already receive email alerts from us, click on the "update my profile" button to add Kennedy to your list. |
This should come as no
This should come as no surprise from a bunch of bishops who have presided over the implosion of the Catholic Church in Ireland. They want to face the future by running full speed into the past, not even the real past but some imagined golden age.
i wonder if this is in
i wonder if this is in response to the Vatican's "no holds barred" investigation on the Irish completed last June?
What a great idea! As the
What a great idea! As the Roman Church lumbers back to the future to "reform the Reform," why expose seminarians to the greater community to whom they must minister, and with whom they must work collegially? Perhaps even woman professors and theologians. ( Gasp!) Or even worse; women studying in the same classes for the same or nearly same degrees. What terrible temptresses any heterosexual women might prove to be, diverting them from their studies.
Many of these young men are psychosocially unprepared for mature adult interactions with future parishioners. In Prof Kennedy's words,"they turn out like many of their predecessors, may abuse them in a desperate search to complete the psychosexual development that was stunted in the kind of closed seminary system that was the problem and that the Irish bishops think is the cure."
Yes the lock and key are the best answers to produce the best priests. Perhaps small islands off the Irish coast would be the very best locations for Seminaries. No questions; no answers. Oh, but for the good old days.
Let us pray for the questions which bring us closer to our faith and to our Saviour Christ Jesus. Let us pray for all baptised who are qualified for priesthood to be able to take Holy Orders regardless of sex of the candidate. Let us also pray for both married and celibate priesthood (including the Episcopacy). Lastly pray for those vowed celibates, whose freedom is FOR their ministries, not freedom FROM certain obligations.
H.G. Bishop Timothy
Pilgrim Prayer & Healing Ministries
Perhaps the best thing for
Perhaps the best thing for Maynooth would be to have Professor Kennedy sent there PDQ and put in charge so that he could revamp the place in keeping with modern psychological/psycho-sexual thinking. The Irish church simply cannot afford to have another generation of seminarians ruined by a medieval hierarchy.
I was for a time in a
I was for a time in a Trappist monastery and for two years in an Irish seminary. There wan't much difference in the level of "separation from the world." One difference was the availability of a couple of daily newspapers in the monastery...
Al Capone really was on
Al Capone really was on Alcatraz!
Read
http://www.alcatrazhistory.com/cap1.htm
one very revealing glimpse at
one very revealing glimpse at life inside a seminary is carefully chronicled by the distinctly Catholic documentarian Michael Moore in his autobiographical book Here Comes Trouble (try the audiobook format for the best effect), in which he recounts his experience fully.
He got the boot for asking too many questions in class . . .
go figure.
Another RC priest, also had
Another RC priest, also had some revealing things to say about life in the seminary.
He too appears to be missing in action for stating the obvious! MORE HERE:
‘Bishop Loverde, Where is Fr. James Haley?’ / Link: http://whereisfrhaley.blogspot.com/
******
Article: Silenced Priest Warns of Gay Crisis / The Washington Times [Arlington VA] / By Julia Duin /
November 15, 2004 / Link: : http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/nov/15/20041115-124042-2061r/?p...
*EXCERPT from ARTICLE:
Father Haley says his only crime is his insistence that homosexual priests, not solely pedophiles, are at the root of the sexual-abuse crisis. The Catholic priesthood is demoralized, he says, by groups of homosexual clerics who control who gets admitted to seminary, which men get nominated for bishop and which priests get the plum parishes.
Based on his 17 years in the priesthood, he estimates that 60 percent of the Diocese of Arlington’s 127 diocesan priests are homosexuals, which is high compared with national estimates of 30 percent to 50 percent from other authorities on the priesthood.
“There’s a point where you have to put your faith on the line,” Father Haley said. “You have to put your life at risk. I am willing to die for this. I am willing to stand up for the truth. Someday, this will all come out. The abuse scandal will seem small compared to this.”
P.S.It should be pointed out
P.S.It should be pointed out that ascribing the cause for the RC Clergy Abuse Scandal to “homosexuality” is not to be confused with who is to blame! No one but the RC “church” herself is to blame for the Gay Community that exists within her priesthood!
Ultimately, the so-called "princes of the church" must bear the blame, the shame, the guilt, the responsibility for what Rome herself reckons to be the **worst crime**,namely,the abuse of children, and the MOTHER of all COVER-UPS, for which they must be held accountable!
The oaths of secrecy that gave rise to the “SCANDAL” required under RC Canon law and taken by her priests, bishops and cardinals that relegates these matters to internal church affairs are still in force. All roads lead to Rome.
Both celibacy and homosexuality have the unqualified censure of the Word of God, which is the highest court of appeal in matters of faith and morals!
Re: Celibacy
“Now the Spirit, speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”
(God’s Word: 1 Tim. 4:1-3)
*******
Unarguably, imposed celibacy, unique to Roman Catholicism, is what is in view in this passage and that which the Holy Spirit relegates as “doctrines of devils”!
Re: Homosexuality
“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”
(God’s Word: Lev. 18:22) (See also Rom. 1:24, 26-27)
Unarguably the “Sacred Scriptures” relegate homosexuality as sin, not an orientation.
********
What a mockery Roman Catholicism has made of the religion of Christ and the “Sacred Scriptures” that relegates all sexual immorality a sin, regardless of what form it takes!
perhaps the new seminary
perhaps the new seminary refectory can be moved to the nearest and most popular pub?
Thereby the requirements of the vocation to know this time and place may be well served.
I am reviewing, as always Mr. James Joyce's short works collected as Dubliners, including Grace, as well as of course Ulysses, both of which give very good portraits of the priestly life of that time, Mr. Joyce himself having been at a cloistered Catholic school from a very tender age.
Wow! That is one powerful
Wow! That is one powerful statement. It gave me the chills!
A few years ago I had the
A few years ago I had the opportunity to revisit what in 1966 had been our novitiate in rural Minnesota. It is now a prison work program, but what really surprised me is that they hadn't changed a thing!
Eugene Kennedy is trying to
Eugene Kennedy is trying to get a message across to the Church that the way the seminarians are being trained is leading to the dangerous "psychosexual development that was stunted in the kind of closed seminary system that was the problem and that the Irish bishops think is the cure."
He and some others that are involved in helping victims of abuse are not being listened to or acknowledged. It seems a very hard lesson to learn that separating seminarians from the world, and especially the world of women, is not conducive to psychological health. Many priests that live in such repressive situations cannot function in any job, and become liabilities to their communities and archdiocees. It is tragic, and there should be no consideration of a new evangelization before the Church does some personal inventory.
This is illogical because
This is illogical because then you are implying that seminaries that are in their own building at monasteries or the convent communities stunt the growth of the novices because they aren't attached to a university or secluded. This does not bear out throughout history.
The Irishtocracy....
The Irishtocracy....
Excellent comments. How well
Excellent comments. How well I remember the seminary years. Isolated and protected. When I left the seminary and started graduate school with people who had not been isolated, I felt odd and out of touch. That was many years ago. It is sad to see bishops trying to return seminarians to those days.
Seems to Petrus here that the
Seems to Petrus here that the church has long sought to inflict scizophrenia on its seminarians by training them in the "desert" (monasteries and other remote places) to serve in the "city" (shoulder to shoulder with other people, men as well as women).
If the priesthood is in crisis, perhaps that crisis is being fueled by a form of clerical scizophrenia that robs its many victims of their identity and inhibits their ability to function as human beings.
Foolish me, I thought
Foolish me, I thought priesthood was at the service of the People of God. Shielding these prospective ministers from the very people they will serve is suspiciously motivated. To state one's desire to maintain "balance" but instead sequester and insulate one from the other is not realistic. This cannot be healthy spiritually or emotionally for the seminarians.....and how would I know? Been there done that,I was a lifer, 12 years in the seminary....years of therapy were invaluable to me.
Thank you, Mr. Kennedy. This
Thank you, Mr. Kennedy. This is actually the first time I've heard support for my contention that the Catholic Church (not to be confused with Catholicism) actually trains young boys to become child molesters in the first place. In His instructions and requirements for proper screening of seminarians, Pope Benedict stipulates that any homosexual candidate must abide by certain criteria. For example, he must not have had sex within the last three years and he must not have had, or have in the future, any contact with the "gay culture."
In His instructions, the Pope uses the word "homosexual" 97 times yet He uses the word "gay" only twice and in each instance it is enclosed in quotes along with the word "culture." We can see where His fear lays.
The pope is clearly saying, "If you are a healthy, mature gay person, you are not welcome by the Catholic Church. If you are psycho-sexually immature and have such low self-esteem that you sincerely believe you are ‘morally disordered’ and ‘intrinsically evil’ then, you are very welcome.”
There was a very interesting
There was a very interesting and thoughtful essay written by Andrew Sullivan about 2 years ago or so that described why he believes that Pope Benedict is himself homosexual. It also addresses the homophobia that Benedict experiences and its formation with the social climate of his youth, and the culture of the Church in which he has dedicated his entire adult life. The link to Mr. Sullivan's blog appears on the home page (I think) of this website (NCR). Agree or not, it is a worthwhile read for those with any openness to understanding the misplaced anti-gay stant of the institutional church, while a growing majority of Catholic faithful are increasingly affirming and inclusive.
“Sex by a man who publicly
“Sex by a man who publicly professes celibacy and privately is sexually active is a hypocrite. “ Richard Sipe
Source: Gays, Priests & Pedophiles / October 24, 2005
Link: http://www.richardsipe.com/Comments/2005-10-24-Gays_Priests_Pedophiles.html
In 2005, the church issued its “Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders”. The policy states that those men with “deeply rooted homosexual tendencies” cannot be ordained under any circumstances.
YET . . *In a 2001 survey Dean Hoge found that 55 percent of priests said that there clearly or probably was a homosexual subculture among priests.
**Father Donald Cozzens*, another respected commentator on the priesthood was somewhat marginalized by the church when in 2000 he estimated a relatively high proportion of gay men in seminaries who tend to form a disruptive subculture (up to 50 percent).
*Dean R. Hoge (2006) Experiences of Priests Ordained Five to Nine Years. Washington D.C.: National Catholic Education Association.
**Donald Cozzens (2000) The Changing Face of the Priesthood. (2002) Sacred Silence: Denial and the Crisis in the Church. (2004) Faith That Dares to Speak. Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press.
Messrs Hogue & Cozzens and other Roman Catholic colleagues who have conducted similar research into these matters have concluded from their research that a significant number of priests/bishops lead double lives and are neither chaste nor celibate and unarguably do not meet the criteria the RC “church” requires of her own priesthood.
Such are in no position to give guidance to others in matters of faith and morals until they clean their own house!
Moreover, the Sacred Scriptures requires that those who have the spiritual rule over the flock are to lead by example:
“Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.” (1 Pet. 5:2-3)
Those who engage in acts which the RC Catechism (Par. 2357: 141, 142) defines and describes as “acts of grave depravity”, “intrinsically disordered” and “unnatural” show by their EXAMPLE they are neither fit nor qualified to occupy these offices in the church.
Parents need to consider the disturbing implications of these sobering realities and how this impacts the instruction their children are receiving in the solemn matters of faith and morals from those who fail to practice what they preach and are themselves at variance with the official teaching of the R.C. “church”! At the very least they are receiving a mixed message. At the very worst their morals are being corrupted.
This is yet another disturbing dimension to the ever-widening Roman Catholic Clergy Abuse SCANDAL perpetrated by the scandalous behaviour of the “church’s hierarchy” . . . a scandal of its’ own making!
Roman Catholicism aka the Roman Catholic church is not CHRIST's CHURCH!
Archbishop John Hepworth,
Archbishop John Hepworth, Primate of the Traditional Anglican Communion, who had been sexually abused as a young catholic seminarian,[two proven and recorded} requesting to return to his roots, had a very interesting insight into "elite homosexual" clergy in Australia. A real boys club by all accounts.
There's room for all, no discrimination guaranteed.
Down under that is.
P.S. It should be noted as
P.S. It should be noted as well that Bill Donahue and others have all along maintained that homosexuals are the very cause of the present RC Clergy Abuse Scandal.
Based on this premise and given the reality that the RC priesthood is itself a “gay community”, then it would follow that the first order of business in the not so holy RC “church” should be to clean their own house?
Excerpt from the text the ad, a letter from Donohue entitled “Straight Talk and the Catholic Church,” that appeared in the NYT’s
“When the National Review Board, a group of notable Catholics, issued its study in 2004, the team’s chief, attorney Robert S. Bennett, said that “any evaluation of the causes and context of the current crisis must be cognizant of the fact that more than 80 percent of the abuse at issue was of a homosexual nature.” One of the members, Dr. Paul McHugh, former psychiatrist-in-chief at Johns Hopkins, has said that “This behavior was homosexual predation on American Catholic youth, yet it’s not being discussed.” By the way, the figures after 2004 haven’t changed—eight in ten cases involve homosexuality. Worldwide, the Vatican estimates that 60 percent of the cases are same-sex, 30 percent are heterosexual and 10 percent involve pedophilia.” Source: AMERICA / Article: Bill Donohue’s Ad in NYT / Posted at: Monday, April 11, 2011
and . . .
the Vatican’s Second in Command, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone blames homosexuality as well . . and I quote:
Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone said in a news conference in Chile on Monday that “many psychologists and psychiatrists have demonstrated that there is no relation between celibacy and pedophilia.”
They do believe, however, “that there is a relation between homosexuality and pedophilia,” he said. “That is true. … That is the problem.”
Source: New York Daily News / Article:
Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone blames homosexuality – not celibacy – for child abuse sex scandal / Tuesday, April 13, 2010
*******
It would seem to follow then that without a thorough cleansing of the temple of homosexual priests and bishops, one can only conclude that the abuse of children will continue unabated!
While the RC “church” as an
While the RC “church” as an institution may not have embraced the “Gay Agenda”, as Messrs. Hogue and Cozzins have pointed out, unarguably her priesthood has wholeheartedly done so!
Any doubts about that will quickly fade if you take the time to read:
Article: The roots of the scandal / July 04, 2002 / Source: CatholicCulture.org (a RC website)
Link: http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=21229
Excerpt:
“In his book Goodbye Good Men, investigative reporter Michael Rose documented the homosexual infiltration of the American Catholic hierarchy. Some orthodox men told him they left the seminary after suffering sexual harassment by homosexual faculty members and students, while others were drummed out as ‘too rigid’ after they admitted to being opposed to homosexuality.”
So . . given this reality, what will the R.C. Hierarchy do? Will they excommunicate and recuse themselves, and/or dismantle the present hierarchy which is infested with homosexuals . . for the”good of the church”?
Not too likely! Simply because . .
"According to a news story in the New York Times (Sept. 15, 2005), Fr. Thomas Reese, S.J., the former Editor-in-chief of America, said that "with the shortage of priests, the church can hardly afford to dismiss gay seminarians."
This glaring contradiction once again reveals the double standard and double-speak that characterizes Roman Catholicism. The perception largely promoted by the “church” hierarchy themselves that priests/bishops are somehow “holier than thou” has been shattered by the revelations of the gross immorality in their ranks.
Furthermore, the myth that the Roman Catholic priesthood is "uniquely configured to Christ" is completely destroyed by the reality of a priesthood that is predominantly comprised of homosexuals.
What a mockery Roman Catholicism has made of the religion of Christ and the "Sacred Scriptures" that relegates all sexual immorality a sin, regardless of what form it takes! Roman Catholicism is not Christ's Church!
JuneAnnette,
"But by the grace of God I am what I am" . . a Christian (1 Cor. 15:10)
I suspect that this new
I suspect that this new isolationism is meant to keep out not just dangerous contacts with other humans but, more importantly, "dangerous ideas". That fact that such an endeavor never works has never stopped those of a totalitarian bent from trying. For the reason such an endeavor never works is because "dangerous ideas" tend to bubble up in the brains of intelligent people even without the influence of the proverbial "bad companions".
It's the "same old thing"
It's the "same old thing" with any sort of Catholic hierarchy, i.e. they want to "revert" to the "Middle Ages" mentality under which non one questioned the church upon the risk of condemnation to hell and death.
The separation format for the seminary is what was used in the US and resulted in things like my class of 160 Freshman (the largest class ever entering The Cape), formed in 1848 by the Vincentians, graduated 4 ordained priests and, subsequently, all but one have left the priesthood. This isp the type of result the Irish can expect by separating off the seminarians and then putting them out into the world with zero experience of the world! Jesus Christ taught his disciples right in the world for a very good reason, I believe. Christ wanted men who loved and served others and who would lead other disciples to being ministers and advocates for peace and justice in the world. That cannot happen, if the disciples are isolated from the world and never experience what the world is about. That format is doomed to failure, in my opinion.
As a former prison chaplain,
As a former prison chaplain, could I make a few suggestions for the smooth running of Maynooth under the new changes.
- Bromide in the seminarians' tea might be a good thing.
- Body cavity searches of all visitors to the seminary, especially Irish Bishops.
- A Training for Freedom (TFF) programme for the seminarians before they are 'reintroduced' into society.
- Beware of any student who asks for a rock hammer, especially if the student has an oversized poster of Pope Benedict on his cell wall.
- Dont allow trustees to do the book-keeping!!
Finally, when these students are eventually unleashed on the Catholic community and wreak havoc, deny all responsibility for their actions and blame it all on secularism, homosexuals and Woodstock.
The voice of reason has
The voice of reason has finally spoken.
With all due respect...I have
With all due respect...I have heard many-a-times that marriage is like a prison sentence as well.
How has no one commented on
How has no one commented on this yet? Great article.
I find this (and all of the "reform of reform") quite disturbing. Why is the Church so afraid of the secular world? It's a big part of the world and you can't change anything without being a part of it. While most of the lay people of the church aren't on the extreme right, the hierarchy continues to support knee jerk fundamentalism.
I remember hearing a comment
I remember hearing a comment reportedly made by Mother Theresa in response to a question from Pope John Paul II. A discussion on how to increase vocations of 'good priests' to the priesthood was producing many questions and ideas. Pope John Paul II asked Mother "what do you think? where will these vocations come from?" (paraphrased) Her response to this question was "our priests will come from good families!" So simple. We cannot separate these good men from good families who come from the lay society.
They're not separated from
They're not separated from their families any more than any other college student that goes away to college. They see their families on breaks or weekends.
Scotus on Jan. 21, 2012. You
Scotus on Jan. 21, 2012.
You stated:
"They're not separated from their families any more than any other college student that goes away to college. They see their families on breaks or weekends."
--------------------------------------------------------
College students can:
1) cell phone their families whenever they wish---seminarians cannot.
2) have access to internet and to facebook----seminarians do not.
Might I add that young men in religious orders have a year away from their families---called the canonical year (their novice year).
There is a big difference between the two groups, Scotus.
What seminary are you talking
What seminary are you talking about? I know seminarians in both the USA and Ireland (and several other countries) and they all use facebook and cellphones at will. Those are diocesan seminarians. Some religious orders might restrict facebook or cell phone use (and internet use in general), especially during novitiate, but that is a different thing.
Not the Franciscan ones
Not the Franciscan ones Scotus. Through the Third Order made up mostly of women, they don't miss out on much, I suppose they even foot the bills for most of them including personal drycleaning in one instance.
My brother in law was in a
My brother in law was in a "Marian" seminarymonastery somewhere in Austria in the 1980s. My husband and I still don't know the name of it, nor do we know which order it was except that it was one of the "Marian" ones. Somewhere around Sankt-Peterburg(?). He was not allowed any correspondence with anyone, not even family members, except for his mother, and only once or twice a year to/from her. I think he was allowed one visit from his mother in his several years there. He injured his back while there, and they never got him proper medical attention. Then they transferred him to another seminary/monastery in Brazil for a while. One of his brothers did visit him in Brazil. Still no medical attention for his back. He moved back home with his Mom to study to be a physician's assistant, and he was eventually abandoned by the religious order.
He eventually got married to a wonderful wife (no kids - no sex?), but he's still very much a kool-aid drinker who thinks the solution to clergy sex abuse is "more holiness" (whatever that means). His back is so bad now that he has been unable to work for about the last five years (and while he's had operations, the injury is cannot be repaired even with the most sophisticated medical techniques available). He has set up a fake charity in support of vocations to the priesthood as a source of income as he becomes more and more disabled from his monastery back injury.
You would *think* that with how badly he was messed over by his former religious order that he'd be more skeptical about religion, but he still buys the whole package without reservation. I guess those years of isolation and intensive brainwashing has made any kind of critical thought impossible for him, poor guy.
It is regrettable that Mr
It is regrettable that Mr Kennedy chooses to devalue his article by including the last paragraph which is highly offensive to those men who have taken the commitment to enter seminaries in order to discern whether the Lord is calling them to servei his people in the priesthood.
With regard to the substance of the article, the changes in Maynooth are aimed at helping to create a supportive community for the seminarians. It surely makes sense to have the residential quarters private rather than open to the general public who have no business there. The seminarians in Maynooth live on the campus of a vibrant university community and interach with the other students there every day.
I went to one of these type
I went to one of these type of seminaries in the 60's in the USA.
I find it incredulous that we are going backward at such a fast rate.
The clerical culture is the worst part of our church.. If we could bust that culture instead of perpetuating it...the people of God could be the church, not the clerics.Power is hard to give up and that is what it is all about.
Has it occurred to anyone
Has it occurred to anyone that most normal men are not going to put up with this kind of nonsense? The net result is that we end up with some men who are downright weird, especially relating to sexual matters between husband and wife. Over the years, I have heard priests make statements on marital matters, both sexual and otherwise, which caused me to burst out laughing.
I think it might be a good idea to try and get some normal men into the priesthood.
Austin writes: "....most
Austin writes: "....most normal men are not going to put up with this kind of nonsense?" Yes and no. If the new seminarys are a reversion to the old style and under the dogmatic hands of the revisionists, some will "put up with this"; some others will have nervous breakdowns at some level of harm and others will leave. "Brian washing" is not reserved to the secular totalitarians. The mantra: "He who puts his hand to the plow and turns back is not worthy of the kingdom of heaven" resonated deeply with suceptible young men of good faith. Opus Dei is not pre-Vatican II.
Your so right dennism,
Your so right dennism, unfortunately there would be many who never "escaped" their disfunctual institutional life, due to just this.
Decent vulnerable young men.
No doubt the blackmail that mother's had one foot already in heaven if their son's were priest's had some influence.
Who would want to hurt their mother.
I think of those now gone to their graves, paled into oblivion.
Dear God preserve the young men of today.
I was in a seminary from 1955
I was in a seminary from 1955 to 1963. In about 1965 I heard Eugene Kennedy speak at a workshop. I can still quote one thing he said:
"The problems with houses of religious formation is that they take normal people and make them feel guilty because they cannot lead an abnormal life perfectly; and they reward those who can."
Always remember the source.
Always remember the source. Think about who said that. Self-justification perhaps???
Could be, but it also could
Could be, but it also could be a broader truth. It is a mistake to always dismiss a criticism because it is the experience of "the source". Experience can also give insight. It really all depends on the depth and honesty of just who the source is.
Eugene, I was wondering if
Eugene, I was wondering if you ever had visited those buildings. Maynooth is
my Ihome town. My uncle Mick the town barber knew everyone in the seminary. Basically from Bishop to first year seminarian he saw them all. It
was he who took me on a grand tour of the campus. It was then only a seminary.
It was built like a prison, felt like one and had a forboding character. On
the top floor partly attic they had at least 40 or 50 practice altars for the
students nearing ordination. The place gave me the creeps. I had no interest
in the secular vocation and went on to a religious community. I finally left
after being at Notre Dame where I was most impressed by the likes of Louis Putz, Jack Egan, Elisabeth Fiorenza and many other fine people of the right
time in our countries religious history. Unfortunately its all downhill now.
A Return to an era where we would be expected to be led by clergy nitwits with
no life experience is nothing short of a tragedy. May we all see some better days ahead. I say this as someone who knows fully the impact of having a beautiful religious experience on the one hand and the total shock of trying to deal with reality after many years of no newspapers, no tv, everything so
closely monitored the only place for relief was ironically the bathroom.
The only satisfaction I can take is that I know this retrenchment will fail very badly. For every action there seems to be guaranteed reaction. So the
pendulum swings... any bets?
You have been so right about so many things father but a prophet is consistently disowned in his own country.
God Bless,
TomC
I know you're not making this
I know you're not making this up, but the decision of the Irish bishops regarding their national seminary is both preposterous and incredible. As a seminarian during the golden age, I remember it well and reject it still.
This is sad regression. As
This is sad regression. As someone who spent a good 6 years of his youth in a seminary, though in a different part of the world, this isolation will actually be detrimental to the seminarians and their own process of discernment. They may struggle to develop mature and responsible friendships with others, sexual feelings may be dismissed with the terms 'concupiscence' or 'temptations' and abuse within the seminary will be covered up or at least not reported because of the real power formators have over the lives of the seminarians. This is all dependent on how much time the seminarians get to spend with their families and in parish ministry. It will particularly depend on the trust and confidence placed in both the seminarians and God, that 'what God has begun' may be brought to fulfilment.
Ah. Again you remind me of
Ah. Again you remind me of another discussion that was held by those convened to discuss the Sacrament of Matrimony during the Second Vatican Council. The word "concupiscence" kept coming up in the context of marriage until - one couple from Mexico, present as "observers only" and at that time, the Executive Couple of Marriage Encounter in Mexico - sent a note with one sentence to be considered by those Bishops struggling with marriage and concupiscence. "Ask your mother and father if you were born out of concupiscence?" It helped change the tenor of the discussion and renewed the concept of God's love in the love between husband and wife.
This decision simply reflects
This decision simply reflects the truth that educating men for the priesthood is different than education lay people for academic careers and lives in ministry. To say that they are going to be cut off and placed under Draconian rules, as you have done here, is appalling because that is a complete assumption based on absolutely no facts from the announcement.
Ascribing the bad experiences you had in seminary decades ago onto anything that even resembles that style of formation shows a complete disconnect from modern priestly formation.
These comments speak volumes
These comments speak volumes about the type of "Catholics" who frequent this website. It is evident that you do not believe that priests have a distinct vocation; it is evident that you do not believe that priests are to be signs of contradiction to the world (indeed all Christians are supposed to be signs of contradiction). It is evident to me that many, if not most, of you folks have chosen not to be signs of contradiction, not to stand and call others to Christ, but rather that you have chosen to surrender to the world, the flesh and the devil, and you want your priests to do the same.
How sad.
"And Jesus wept..."
Julii. the "word became flesh
Julii. the "word became flesh and dwelt amongst us"....Christ did not redeem as by long distance, not by offering a correspondence course in salvation, nor did He remove Himself from the everyday, instead He immersed Himself in the lives of the people He met, He lived, walked, conversed, ate and even slept in their homes. Now when it comes to examples of servanthood, I will choose to follow His lead. Deliberating separating one's self from the world may well be a characteristic of monastic life but it most certainly does not describe the secular priesthood.
God created the world and saw
God created the world and saw that it was good. God created flesh, too. God even created the devil. You want people to live their life to make a point of contradicting God?
Julii, I nearly made into the
Julii, I nearly made into the priesthood and had nightmares about "leaving" after I left. However, I've since developed 13 outreach ministries in a single Catholic Church with several thousands of active volunteers. We recruited, trained, and supported 20 volunteer lay leaders, who directed the 13 outreach ministries, which were focused on unmet local needs. The result was an annual increase of $500,000 in donations, after years and years of stagnation. This was a result of a very prophetic statement at one of our pastoral council members leaving for another state, in which a very prophetic man said, "When you do 'the work of the Lord', the increase in donations will come!" How right this prophetic man was, as we watched thousands of people move from the pews into active social ministries, some of which attained national recognition. That's all been nearly closed down now, as subsequent pastors just did not understand what this "action from the pew in ministry to others" was really all about. The church has decided to take the increased income and put a $4 million addition onto the school even as parishes and schools in the Midwest are closing left and right; meanwhile our regions only homeless shelter for men, women, and children goes unsupported, after we helped start it and get the $350,000 property donated by the owner for a homeless shelter. I hope this all works out; but four different efforts and 20 years of labor to move people from the pews into active leadership and ministry to one another out of love and moving toward advocacy for justice and peace are "going by the boards" a few programs and hundreds of volunteers at a time. It's all about a thousand PLUS years of structure based on Constantine's effort to "make" the church the "church of the realm" so Constantine could focus his troops on expanding and maintaining his "worldly empire" and the church just hopping on board for the "ride"! We need to get off this "train" and return to the teachings of Jesus Christ about love, discipleship, and ministry to one another for justice and peace. When will everyone in the Catholic Church realize that this is truly not about the "priests" - AS WE ARE ALL CALLED TO BE PRIESTS AND MINISTERS TO EACH OTHER AND TO THE WORLD!
Dear El Lobo, Thankyou for
Dear El Lobo,
Thankyou for your truly wonderful ministry. So sad that the reaction to the openness from Vatican II has encouraged a return to control by such diminished souls. Eve
Julii, your comment was like
Julii, your comment was like a breath of fresh air in an overcrowded barn. I too believe that there is a distinct vocation to the priesthood. I was in college when I believe that I received "a call" and entered the seminary in 1948 and remained in various seminaries until November 1956 when,after much prayerful thought, I concluded that my vocation was elsewhere. Based on the blogs to this article one could conclude that I spent eight years in a horror show. Not so! They were among the happiest years of my life. I have not regretted spending so much of my youth in the seminary nor have I ever regretted leaving. I made many wonderful and still friends, learned much about my church and matured in my faith. In the next few years I met a wonderful young woman, married her, graduated from law school, had six children (two are in heaven and four attend Mass weekly), retired from law and today describe myself as "a contented Trent Catholic within the limits permitted by Vatican II" I am a regular reader of NCR (along with The Wanderer and First Things) but very rarely agree with what appears in its pages.
More weirdness. I imagine
More weirdness. I imagine that you would love for Catholicism to become some medieval, right wing cult, like LC/RC?
I am a Christian. I take my
I am a Christian. I take my lessons on being Christian from the man Christ chose to deliver the message to- apostle Paul. Where does Paul tell believers to be "signs of contradiction?"
This is a tremendous article,
This is a tremendous article, and the comments have been great to read, too. Thanks to all.
As a seminarian I must admit
As a seminarian I must admit that I find most of the comments quite humorous. The main point of the article seemed to be that the seminary in Ireland is now separating living quarters of the seminarians and secular students. Why is that such a big deal? I don't know of a single American seminary where the seminarians live with secular students. What I also find funny are the comments that refer to personal experiences of seminary life in the '60s. Things have changed quite a bit since then and it seems a little weird to hear people insinuate that what happened then is still happening now. What is also funny is to hear all the talk of no life experience. That just shows that the commenters here don't really grasp who is in seminary now. I know that 75% of my class all earned degrees in something else before they started seminary and I know several seminarians that have prior military experience. I don't think that was the case in the '60s, but that is just my assumption because I wasn't around then. One think that I think would help everyone understand what is going on now is to read Pastores Dabo Vobis and then read the Program for Priestly Formation put out by the USCCB. Those two documents are what seminaries are currently doing in the US.
I agree with your point about
I agree with your point about having separate living areas. The original article in The Irish Catholic highlighted the 'balance' sought by the changes. It is good to know that those entering the seminary have possibly already spent time discerning their vocation. I hope that the seminarians in Ireland have a genuinely supportive formation programme that enables them to grow as mature persons, serving the Church and recognising the Holy Spirit at work among the People of God. I wonder what Model of Church is driving this 'reform'.
And not just in
And not just in IRELAND:
http://www.ucanews.com/2012/01/20/paedophilia-in-the-church-in-asia/
Oh, poo! Don't tell me the
Oh, poo! Don't tell me the Church in Ireland has made another u-turn. There was an article a couple of years ago describing how that particular seminary was considering closing its doors for good. The author described how the seminary, that once held hundreds of students in its heyday, was now reduced to a dozen or so seminarians. He described how these few inhabitants of that imposing edifice were like a few green peas rattling around in an empty tin can.
He wrote they were seriously considering closing this "White elephant" and have the seminarians attend local Catholic universities while living at local parishes where they could work closely with the local pastors, learning the "Ins and outs" of parish management, but attend classes at the university like other students, learning to deal with the pressures and temptations of the outside world.
Now, that was what the bishops were considering at that time. Maintaining the old system for so few students, with its heavy maintenance requirements, was not financially feasible. Could it be Rome had some input into this decision?
This is the week for Mental
This is the week for Mental Health in the US. The description of some of the seminarians sounds like the current Mental Health System in the United States.
When you seperate a group of people from the community and disallow regular and open contact, it becomes a prison in the fullest sense of the word.
Priests are human and have the same human foibles as the rest of us.
We need a strong Mental Health focus in the Church or we will be doomed to
see the great diminshment of the Church.
"the great diminishment of
"the great diminishment of the church" is exactly what is called for. This institution is corrupt from the top down.
Gene and I were classmates in
Gene and I were classmates in the Maryknoll "minor" seminary in Lakewood, NJ in 194-something-or-other, so I share many of the background impressions he may or may not carry with him to this day. As I remember that context, we were shielded purposely and not involuntarily not from the "world" at large nor from whatever "devil" there may have been lurking but - let's put it frankly - from people our age of the female persuasion. This whole Maynooth thing and the Sulpician seminary horror stories and the hatching of incomplete human beings into priestlings has, as it root, the utterly un-Christlike, un-Biblical and, dammit, the ridiculously foolish interdict on married and female - yes FEMALE - clergy. Until Holy Mother Church gets to listen to her Holy Mother, don't complain, don't wring hands instead of listening to what the Holy Spirit is telling us.
Reminds me of the story about the preacher in the flood. As he stood on his roof above the flood waters, first there came a canoe, then a boat then, finally, the Coast Guard in a helicopter to save him. "No" he thundered, "God will save me!" When he finally drowned and met his Maker, he remonished the Lord for not helping..."Gee," God replied, "I sent you two boats and a helo!"
<A]A load of codswallop! I
<A]A load of codswallop!
I was in preconciliar seminaries and downright enjoyed myself;a toughening up process, but things were tough for many youngens in the 50's and earlier, 'in the world'.[corporal punishment rampant in schools, was non existent in minor seminaries];many chaps ended up after major seminaries in tougher experiences e.g. in papua new guinea missions and the many and varied claims of the apostolate.
B]When the postconciliar era began, and discipline waned;morale plummeted and many left. It was particularly noticed that the easier 'train yourself' ethos appealed to very campy personalities who e.g.had bun fights to do women's roles in seminary concerts, dressing in drag[I suspect many run-of-the-mill blokes were repelled and left the seminaries[too much bitching!;[while the postconciliar campy element was irritating there was no suggestion of immorality.
C]I APPLAUD THE IRISH PRIESTS FROM IRISH SEMS WHO CAME AND ESTABLISHED A FINE FLOURISHING AUSTRALIAN CHURCH!!! DISMANTLED SOMEWHAT BY THE GAGGLE OF POST-GONE-SILLIER 'ALL SORTS'
Yes George, those early days
Yes George, those early days when seminarians had to sleep with their arms across their chest in case of "impurities".
I'm not to sure where wet dreams came into the equation, a normal process for adolescence.
No wonder so many had hang ups as adult clergy, especially listening to the intimacies of life.
Those who served as missionaries saw and learnt more as nature, and were better of, until returning to the mainland.
Utter nonsense re crossed
Utter nonsense re crossed arms etc![I admittedly woke at 6 AM with crossed eyes.
In dormitory we knelt beside our beds at night[some sprawled a'bed] and said prayers and then got into bed and fell asleep without any of your pious gymnastics.
One 'over pious' late vocation slept the sleep of the just totally unaware that a dead snake slept underneath his sheets positioned by minor seminarians
In the bitterly cold months one minor seminarian won the self indulgence cup for his 16 extremely frayed moth eaten blankets[needless to say he leftfor warmer pastures]
The minor seminary was schoolboys paradise with stacks of sport and a major idyllic river running through bushy 1760 acre property bought at a scream in early 20Th century.
The food was substantial except for sago aka 'frogs eyes' such could be swapped on the seminary 'black market' for fabulous "egg in a hole"[egg fried in centre of bread or even the odd bun at arvo tea]
Of course not all fun and games with a healthy regimen of daily mass and spiritual exercises-the academic results gained comment in yearly public examiners reports re great state exam results again from that little country school south of Sydney
After yearly holidays at home it was great to return to sem and old mates
The thing that upsets me so
The thing that upsets me so much about this whole thing is that I can't imagine how anyone could believe that training priests-in-the-making in such complete isolation from the people they are to serve could be helpful in any way whatsoever. May I share an example of how I have seen this work with my own eyes?
I lived in Nigeria for two years back in the 1960s and used my time there to learn as much as I could about the various tribal peoples with most of my learning focused on the Yoruba tribe which was predominant in southern Nigeria where I was living. A great number of Yorubas in that area were Christian, mostly Catholic, where Irish priests and nuns had worked hard for decades at converting them from their animist beliefs. From their earliest times there, these missionaries had noted many carved wooden figures as well as some bronze art objects of people in the Yoruba households and, designating them as "idols," set about burning and destroying all of those found. It turned out that what they were burning were not "idols' at all but something more like family portraits. The Yoruba people have the highest rate of twin births of any ethnic group in the world and because so many children died before the age of 5, when twins were born, the parents would have two beautiful little wooden statues called ibeji carved, one representing each twin. If one twin died, some Yoruba buried the statue of the surviving twin with it; others reverenced the
ibeji of the dead child and used it to remind them always of the lost child.
Yet these ibejis were burned by the thousands as "idols" because the perpetrators, yes - well meaning though they were, knew NOTHING about the people they were working to convert or their culture. Wouldn't it have been better if they had known more about them? Then they could have used those very objects and what they represented as a concrete way of teaching the concept of the Communion of Saints to this people who already were in touch with that "Communion" but just didn't use the same words to talk about it.
When young men being trained for the priesthood are being educated and are being kept in such isolation from the very people they are meant to serve, they are going to end up just as ignorant of important things in the lives of those they are meant to serve as those Irish missionaries were. Yes, this example may seem too literal and even a bit crass to serve as an example but I don't believe it is. Failing to understand the values and culture of people you mean to help cannot help but cause damage in one way or another.
Yes, I am sure that if
Yes, I am sure that if Maynooth seminarians eat dinner with college students and hang out in their dorm rooms they will learn to understand the tribal practice of the Yoruba to carve figurines of their children. That's the ticket.
Post new comment