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PDF versionWatershed moment for clerical culture: more bishops than monsignors in Chicago
by Eugene Cullen Kennedy on Jul. 29, 2010
The news that, including retired prelates, Chicago is now home to more bishops than monsignors means that the tipping point has been reached for clerical culture. Imagine the hierarchical church as a crumbling amusement park on whose lonely and littered midway one battered attraction survives -- a huge teeter-totter, one end dug into the ground like a dagger under the weight of its once easy rider bishops while the other sways like a construction crane clutching a cargo of lighter-than-air monsignors.
The bishops who once gazed down on the once respectful crowds now look up longingly at their once privileged space in the heavens; the monsignors who got neck spasms from looking anxiously upward for most of their careers are now stranded in mid-air with no place to go.
Chicago was once the imperial seal embossed on America's clerical culture. That's when Cardinal Mundelein rode to his brick replica of Mount Vernon on the seminary grounds in a limousine with crimson strutted wheels and would ask absently, on his way to a priest's funeral, "What was Father's name again?" Chicago still has a cardinal archbishop named Francis George who is also president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. He is pleasant the way the man who sells you a suit is and just as hard to recall afterward. His phantom-like presence, except when he gets irritated with gays who want to receive the Eucharist together, is a symptom of the withering away of the clerical culture.
Clerical Culture, once the greatest show on earth, has not posted its closing notices but, like the three ring circus it so closely resembled in its days of glory, it has seen its tattered wonders outstripped by those of modernity, and the people are neither enticed by its barkers nor willing to believe in its clever illusions anymore. Its dissolution is a sign, starker than a symbol cut into a wheat field, of the collapse of the hierarchical pre-Vatican II establishment that so many righteous clerics are struggling to restore.
Ordinary Catholics love their church and their faith but long ago left the midway of the clerical culture circus. Yes, yes, they nod in recognition but what do we do now? The first thing, perhaps, is to stop debating with those out in the clerical cemetery trying to dig up the corpse of its culture. They are just digging the grave a little deeper. Watch the mournful scene and grasp the meaning of Jesus' injunction to let the dead bury the dead.
Save your energy and do not expect the institution or its leaders to become transparent in their practices or more forthcoming in their dialogue. They cannot be argued into responses that are unnatural for them. The transparency gene, like evidence of criticizing celibacy or being in favor of ordaining women, would have made them ineligible for positions of power in the French cuffed clerical Alamo they will defend to the last man.
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Resist the strong temptation to develop "house churches" in which the Eucharist may be celebrated free of the present discouraging entanglements. Third parties don't work in politics and these third party endeavors, noble as they may be in intention and execution, sever a connection to the greater church as a people and encourage incurable clerics to think that they own the church that belongs to you.
Concentrate together on remaining loyal to the sacramental church and to pensioning off the declining soft-bitten clerics who want to turn it into an ecclesiastical spa. Perhaps the best formula yet devised for that is the Voice of the Faithful's simple mantra to support good priests and to change the church.
There are countless good priests who need support to carry on their own efforts to be true to the vision and documents of Vatican II. They include, for example, Msgr. Michael Ryan of Seattle who has been leading an heroic battle to reject the restoration of rococo liturgical texts, or Fr. John Heagle, often dispossessed in his wonderful mission of preaching and giving comfort to struggling Christians. Stand up for Fr. Richard McBrien, who has had more arrows shot at him than St. Sebastian for nothing more than writing a column that every week is a teaching vehicle for orthodox theology. There are thousands of priests -- along with dedicated religious men and women such as Sr. Joan Chittister and James Carroll -- who need our support in what often seems their thankless battle to maintain a healthy church.
Indeed, as the tipping point for clerical culture passes, the best way to resolve the still unhealed wound of the sex abuse crisis is less through putting bishops on trial than in ignoring them and putting all our energy into the great renewal of Catholicism that was begun by Pope John XXIII in convening Vatican Council II. Anything that brings healing to the abused is good but the bad seeds of its origin and the bad faith of those who work against its ultimate resolution will only be eliminated by a church out of the shadow of the broken down seesaw of clerical culture and flooded with the sun of wholeness, wholesomeness and holiness.
[Eugene Cullen Kennedy is emeritus professor of psychology at Loyola University, Chicago.]
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If there are no new
If there are no new monsignori, wouldn't that mean that the clerical culture itself is changing from inside?
Well, yah! That's what the
Well, yah! That's what the article just said. We shouldn't waste time fighting with them, just ignore them, cuz they're going away anyway.
Another great column, Eugene.
Another great column, Eugene. You are on a roll. The corrupt and effete clerical culture left over from the pre-Vatican II days is collapsing in front of our eyes. Everyone seems to know except some of its own members.
Cashelguy, I want to second
Cashelguy, I want to second that. Interesting to note the magnificent funeral Cardinal Mundelein provided "Scarface" Al Capone too. Al was very generous to the archdiocese and the cardinal never forgot that. Of course, neither did the Bureau of Internal Revenue.
Poor Father McBrien, to listen to the enlistees for Captain Ratzinger's Ship of Fools now in the process of taking over the US Catholic Church, you would think he was at best a schismatic and a heretic, but at worst the devil incarnate.
This story is hardly a
This story is hardly a 'watershed' moment! Chicago has not named a 'prelate' since 1969. A Polish American priest was involved in helping the Church in POland, and a Polish Bishop requested that he be given the title; somewhat similar to the situation in "Monsignor Quixote" by Graham Greene (where the title is requested by an outside bishop)
So Chicago did away (essentially) with part of the clerical culture of hierarchy and privelege. That's right; the clerical culture did away with its perks. That's the man bites dog story here.
Hmmm. I am reminded of the
Hmmm. I am reminded of the old navy saw: "You know you're in trouble when you have more admirals than ships."
The Catholic prelacy remind
The Catholic prelacy remind me of the State Department. More ambassadors floating around with titles and other marks of distinction than embassies to which they can be accredited.
"Monsignor"....pshhh!!!
"Monsignor"....pshhh!!! Where is that in Scripture??
Probably the same place where
Probably the same place where it says that if something cannot be found in Scripture, then you do not have to believe it.
where is pope? only love . .
where is pope?
only love . . .
The position of Monsignor is
The position of Monsignor is scriptural! It was instituted when Jesus said, "You can sleep on now and take your rest."
I love your sense of humor.
I love your sense of humor. But think this is also applicable for all the ranking above msgr as well - for they are asleep to the winds of the Holy Spirit - while calling us to listen to the Holy Spirit - methinks they need to heed their own words.
Why does every "Bulletin from
Why does every "Bulletin from the Human Side" drip with such angry, bitter sarcasm? Methinks the gentle Galilean might take a different approach than superiorly smirking righteousness...
Hey Eugene, your "hierarchy is bad, oh so bad" mantra is getting OLD.
It may be in how one reads
It may be in how one reads articles that are critical. I can only speak for myself, but I don't read anger and bitter sarcasm. I read much needed, good constructive criticism. It helps keep my faith alive.
I could believe "constructive
I could believe "constructive criticism" if I could hear love for the Church in the text. No, the author seems to enjoy himself far too much, and his own condescending word-crafting.
Dear Anonymous, where you see
Dear Anonymous, where you see anger, bitterness, sarcasm, smirking righteousness, and an "old" mantra I see faith, hope, literary analogy/metaphor, a spirituality of solidarity, a deep love for the church as People of God/Pilgrim People and courage in the face of attacks by such as yourself.
In addition I agree with Professor Kennedy that we've come to a "tipping point" in ecclesial history with regard to hierarchy and clericalism and top down (for a most recent instance you'd do well to read John Allen's "All Things Catholic" article regarding an imminent Kenyan vote which may reveal "political impotence" of that episcopal conference.) Our church is global. It's impossible to speak only of one diocese, a national church, a regional church. We are catholic. What happens in Spain, Kenya, USA, Italy, Phillipines, Australia, etc affects each and all of us. What happens in one place must be viewed in the light/context of what happens everywhere... Although Professor Kennedy didn't mention the work of the Spirit I sense he relies on deep faith in precisely this work when he argues from a stance of "tipping point."
Well, anon, who hides behind
Well, anon, who hides behind anonymous - I have heard the adage "the squeaky wheel gets the oil." Perhaps if we scream long and hard enough - the "powers" that be may actually begin to listen? Why are you so fearful of giving your name - are you part of the system that does not want to get overlooked for promotion to the heiararchy by speaking out PUBLICLY for justice issues?
great renewal of Catholicism
great renewal of Catholicism that was begun by Pope John XXIII in convening Vatican Council II
...
All due respect, but how can someone look at the rubble of the Church and conclude that there was 'renewal'?
It's a serious question. Do progressives actually believe it, or are they so invested in teh Spirit of VII they just turn a blind eye to reality?
Change can be so deleterious
Change can be so deleterious to the established order --- and so unsettling to those enamored of the status quo.
The "rubble" of which you speak is evidence of the ongoing renewal, JPII and B16's efforts to preserve the old order notwithstanding.
Change is part of life, and the Spirit is the Source of life in the church. No change, no life.
Mr Jaglowicz I think we can
Mr Jaglowicz I think we can all agree that the falling away of the faithful is hardly limited to being establilshed to those 'enamored of the status quo'
The church is in a tough place, the detrius of the Spirit of VII. JP the Great was able to stabilize the ship, but we are hardly back to where we were in, say, 1958.
I am most certainly not enamored w/ our US status quo, whose Jadot bishops like Weakland, Mahoney, Clark, Cummins, Ryan, et al were enamored with the 'signs of the times' (or whatever that banal slogan was) and dismantled a thriving institution.
Right now, our old line orders -men and women - are going the way of hte Shakers. No one is trying to preserve this order. But it will take much, much work to climb out of this pit
Perhaps you are too young to remember the health of the church just as the 'spirit of VII' was leased upon the land.
How can you see people abondoning their church in droves and call it the 'work of the spirit' Or the sexual abuse crisis, whose ground zero is the 1960s and 1970s (check the John Jay report b/4 flaming me).
The "falling away of the
The "falling away of the faithful"? Please explain.
JPII "was able to stabilize the ship"? You've gotta' be kidding!
You believe that post-Vatican II bishops "dismantled a thriving institution"? Again, you've gotta' be kidding! The Church of Rome pre-Vatican II was pretty on the outside, rotten on the inside. We've been seeing the "fruits" of this sinful, dysfunctional clerical culture that was centuries in the making.
"Perhaps you are too young to remember the health of the church just as the 'spirit of VII' was leased [sic] upon the land"? And what age are you? I'm 62, served the Tridentine mass in my youth, witnessed Vatican II during my four years in high school. The conciliar renewal was long overdue. Change on such a broad and deep scale can be predictably messy. JPII and B16 remind me of all the king's men trying their best to put poor ol' Humpty Dumpty back together again!
People abandoning their church in droves? Yes. Just don't confuse our Catholic Faith with the Roman Catholic Church. Not the same. The church should be facilitating a living faith, but all we've seen the past 30+ years is a Vatican and two popes out of touch with reality, fearful of change, confusing giving orders and threats with genuine leadership.
The Holy Spirit works among all the People of God, not just among the hierarchs.
Breakdown before breakthrough.
It can't come soon enough.
it was cool until Wojo
it was cool until Wojo Wojtyla came along and put the Vatican Bank back in charge funded by Marcial, and destroyed the church of the people, and our righteous liberation, castigating the Reverend Father Miguel D'Escoto while protecting and enabling Marcial.
Clinton left behind the greatest surplus in history, and baby Bush the most infinite deficit, yet we blame Obama for the present rubble.
Blame Wojtyla and Ratzinger decimating our church's greatest hearts and minds and promoting exclusively those of little mind and lesser heart, in their blitzkrieg renewing the renewal .
palomas You must be too
palomas You must be too young to remember the 1970s. Besides being the peak of the sexual abuse crisis, it also coincided with a flight of people from the Church.
JP the Great walked into a church that was a wreck. All your snarky comments can not change that.
You love to bring up Marciel, but the work of hte Legionairres is positive.
Why don't you comment on the abuser/enabler Bp Weakland. Or the abuser/enabler Card Bernardin. THe enabler Card Mahoney. The enabler Card Daneels. Or rather than dialogue, is it just easy to wipe out the past and prattle "Woytyla! Marciel!"
Fact is, the church was a wreck long before JPII was elected to the papacy. THat wreck is why the heck he was elected in the first place!
To: "Anonymous Scrantonian"
To: "Anonymous Scrantonian" SInce you mention "enablers"; the 'biggest' "enablers" in
Modern Church History, are those who "enabled" Fr Maciel, of "cult of personality" fame!
Let's see, John Paul II comes to mind as Maciel's # 1 "enabler" !
Ahh...the progressives found
Ahh...the progressives found a horse to ride.
I think we all can agree that the Legion does great work and has generated many vocations.
If you'd like to compare w/ Abp Weakland's legacy, I'd be happy to.
Or Mahoney's. Or Bernardin's. Or Cummins. Or Ryan. Or Ziemann. Or Daneels. Or and etc.
Yes, there have been
Yes, there have been violators on both sides and when I finished the first sentence, I thought of the Weakland hourse that the Right loves to Ride. Non-the-less, I was surprised to see my thought so immediately confirmed. Yet, any review of of the two, would also show many differences. Weakland was not power driven, as Marciel was. He did not bribe higher ups, he did not drape his life in luxury and did not have repeated and consent violations of his vow of celibacy. He actually apologized to the his accuser (that is how his accuser was able to sue him. Because he wrote a letter of regret). And he did not try to develop a cult around him or position himself for glory. Despite Weakland's failings, a review of his life shows a flawed man, but one of humility, something that is difficult to see in Marciel.
Thank you John David for
Thank you John David for addressing this anonscrantonian - have no idea why he brought Cardinal Bernardine into the mix of sexual offenders/defenders. I know that some of the extreme right wingers have tried to demonize Bernardine - but have never obtained answers to what they charge him with?
BTW Palomas, your inability
BTW Palomas, your inability to articulate the 'benefits' of VII is an indictment by itself
Name one, if you are able.
AnonymousScrantonian on Aug.
AnonymousScrantonian on Aug. 03, 2010.
You stated:
"BTW Palomas, your inability to articulate the 'benefits' of VII is an indictment by itself
Name one, if you are able."
------------------------------------
Apparently when the documents of Vatican II came out---you didn't read any, because you were locked in a closet in Scranton.
There are several benefits of VII---too many to list here. But I will take just one---Religious Freedom---and write about it.
The Roman Catholic Church embraced the principle of religious liberty at the Second Vatican Council. This dramatic action was a major milestone in the history of the church. The "Declaration of Religious Freedom" was a turnabout, a volte-face so notable as to constitute a classic example of the development of doctrine.
The church's conviction about religious freedom is based squarely on the nature of the human person and on the nature of religion. That is what makes the teaching so significant for the internal life of the church. It is not a mere expedient, a better strategy for dealing with contemporary secular authorities. Rather it derives from the very conditions of human existence and of Christian belief, as seen in the light of reason and of divine revelation.
From the "Declaration of Religious Freedom" and from the "Church in the Modern World (Gaudium et Spes), came the concept of the Primacy of Conscience. This position might better be described as the "ultimacy" of personal conscience, rather than its 'primacy."
"People grasp and acknowledge the precepts of the divine law by means of their own consciences, which they are bound to follow faithfully in all their activity so as to come to God, their end." (DH 3).
for consciences to be true guides, they must be free.
"It is only in freedom, however, that human beings can turn to what is good...Genuine freedom is an outstanding manifestation of the divine image in humans. For God willed to leave them in the hands of their own counsel, so that they would seek their reator of their own accord and would freely arrive at full and blessed perfection by cleaving to God. Their human dignity therefore requires them to act through conscious and free choice, as motivated and prompted personally from within, and not through blind internal impulse or merely external pressure. (GS 17)
This was just ONE of the benefits coming out of Vatican II.
Palomus I think we can all
Palomus I think we can all agree that a document is just words, and is not an accomplishment.
And to measure an accomplishment, we need to net out the good and bad. Personally, the loss of faith by so many does not justify all that flowery language you so laud.
AnonymousScrantonian on Aug.
AnonymousScrantonian on Aug. 08, 2010.
You Stated:
Palomus I think we can all agree that a document is just words, and is not an accomplishment.
And to measure an accomplishment, we need to net out the good and bad. Personally, the loss of faith by so many does not justify all that flowery language you so laud.
-------------------------------------
Please don't blame 'Palomus' for this response---I gave it. And as far as accomplishment is concerned---you are in no position to 'net' any good and bad.
Please remember that the quotes that I gave are from the Documents of an Eccumenical Council---and it has a higher authority than any singular document coming from even a pope.
Little Bear Sorry! But a
Little Bear Sorry! But a document is 'just words'. And the loss of faith does not justify placing pretty words on a pedastal.
AnonymousScrantonian on Aug.
AnonymousScrantonian on Aug. 10, 2010.
You stated:
"Little Bear Sorry! But a document is 'just words'. And the loss of faith does not justify placing pretty words on a pedastal."
------------------------------------------
You are forgetting that the Old and New Testaments are documents. The Gospels, where our Lord's words are written for us to read and meditate upon, are documents. Are they just "pretty words on a pedastal" to you? Our creed, the writings of the doctors, theologians are documents. The results of the all of Ecumenical Councils resulted in documents---just words, Anonymous Scrantonian? All of the dogmas and doctrines are written down as documents---just words?
All the teachings of the popes in forms of moto propos, encyclicals are documents, again, "just words."
Faith rests in the Lord Jesus Christ. It is his gift to us and if we respond, we have accepted the faith. Documents further define more clearly what we believe or expand our understanding of our faith better. But they are not just "pretty words." And if you believe that, then maybe you are not so 'Catholic' as you think you are.
Littlebear If you'd like to
Littlebear If you'd like to compare the inspired Word of God w/ the scribblings of men, go right ahead.
I believe that the bible says 'by their fruit ye shall know them'. Well, the OT and NT are the basis for hundreds of millions of people. Can't say that the documents of VII led to a rebirth of faith or practice.
Plus, I'll reiterate: there's nothing in the Document on Religious Freedom that would be worth trading for the loss of faith of so many people. Its authors were enamored with the 'spirit of the times'. That shines through all the documents, and the implementation.
They opened the windows to a fallen world, and look what was blown in.
To littlebear's and others'
To littlebear's and others' comments that V2 was utterly without fruit, i quite strongly disagree. Someone asked for examples. Do you even remember those pre-V2 days? I wouldn't romanticize them, myself. Nor, in fact, would i romanticize the post-V2 era. But--
there has been a remarkable rebirth of lay understanding and participation at all levels, including the liturgy; i would say there is no question that catholic *culture* as a whole (incl. Joe Pewsitter) is simply much more aware of what 'liturgy' is about, from the git-go. In fact, 'liturgy' itself is a word we learned from V2 and beyond!
Painful as it is, it's actually very good that the corruption and bankruptcy, moral and otherwise, of a number of cherished persons and institutions has come to light. Much of that was well-entrenched for centuries; by 'opening windows' (John xxiii), V2 led directly to the chaos we have today. But that's a good thing! Or do you really want sodomitical priests in the dark confessional? Another fruit of V2 is the fact that the laity sense they are in a relatively enhanced position (compared to the old days) to do something about these problems, and to demand accountability.
Attitudes toward protestantism and eastern orthodoxy, as well as towards non-christian religions, have improved markedly. The Rcc is simply not quite so chauvinistic as it used to be (though i think it still has a long way to go.) One may or may not like any given approach taken by any given bishop or theologian; one may strongly disagree theologically with some of the trends. But at least there is now the possibility of speaking out, and moving forward. If you actually believe in 'one holy catholic and apostolic church' as an *ongoing*, spirit-guided process and not simply as a monolithic institution headquartered in some roman buildings, you can relax a bit as you struggle for the rest that you believe in, knowing that in the long run, God actually *is* in charge, not you.
Indeed, isn't one of the hallmarks of the particular kind of unwisdom that is called fanaticism the radically dualistic viewpoint that says, They're 100% wrong, and we're 100% right? Let us watch ourselves! I've no intention of advocating wishy-washiness, but in our calmer moments, i think it's not hard to see that even tridentistas owe some debt to the (real) renewal that has come about as a result of V2.
Or rather, to the renewal in which V2 was an important, but by no means sole, player.
By the way, how come everybody's all about jp2 and b16 but never p6 or j23 these days? They were just as 'divinely inspired' as the two more recent ones are. But now you'd almost expect to hear that they weren't so 'infallible' after all!
So, you're saying we need to
So, you're saying we need to fight clerical culture by standing up for good priests and religious? We should focus on Pope John XXIII and the work of a council of Bishops? Ummm... aren't these people clerics? If we really wanted to fight clerical culture, we should stop paying attention to these clerics.
Let's see... John Heagle -
Let's see...
John Heagle - 70+ years old
Richard McBrien - 70+ years old
James Carroll - 67 years old
Joan Chittister - 74 years old
Michael Ryan - not sure, but I bet he 65+
I'm surprise you didn't include Tom Gumbleton and Hans Kung in your list.
The people you emulate - the Vanguards of Dissent - are in their sunset years, and are much more likely to pass long before the so-called "Clerical Culture". What fruit is being borne on the trees in the grove of dissent is bitter, small and sterile. Deo Gratias!
Thanks be to God their time
Thanks be to God their time is closing out and their influence (except in small, scattered, mostly contraceiving and bitter circles) has not lasted as long as their own lifetimes. Surely, a sign that the Church truly is guided by the Holy Spirit!
lgd sacrilegiously robs like
lgd sacrilegiously robs like golden vessels from the altar my order's sacred phrase DEO GRATIAS and applies it to purposes which are "bitter, small and sterile."
and anti-Catholic.
There's nothing anti-Catholic
There's nothing anti-Catholic about speaking the truth. The heralds of dissent have contracepted themselves into non-existence. I'm thankful to God that those who seek to change the Church into their own image are shrinking in number and influence. I give it another generation.
lgd0708 on Aug. 02, 2010. You
lgd0708 on Aug. 02, 2010.
You stated:
"There's nothing anti-Catholic about speaking the truth. The heralds of dissent have contracepted themselves into non-existence. I'm thankful to God that those who seek to change the Church into their own image are shrinking in number and influence. I give it another generation."
-----------------------------------------
Really? Guess who supports the local churches the most? It's the "Golden Oldies." They run all the organizations that raise the money to keep parishes in the black. The Golden Oldies were involved in Christian Mothers, Holy Name Society, St. Vincent de Paul, Rosary societies, Sodalities, 'Faith in Action,' etc. when THEY were YOUNG.
As the reforms of Vatican II came into place, these same folks were trained catechists, and received advanced degrees in theology and spirituality. They may be grandparents---but they have tremendous influence on their children, grandchildren and students. In addition, they have a large influence in the communities outside of the church buildings---they influence the larger human community.
The John Paul II generation---outside of the church building---where are they? Their version of Catholicism looks too much like a narrow, ahistorical fundamentalism. Our 'official Church' is too preoccupied with being 'right.' It has not/and is not interested in issues such as human suffering, healing, poverty, environmentalism, social justice, inclusivity, and care for the outsider. And just like the official church, the JP II generation believes in "Churchianity" rather than with 'The Way'---that Jesus demonstrated and taught.
The "heralds of dissent" as you call them, are like the Prophets of the O.T. They pointed out the errors of the established religion---and the leaders the(and folks, who, then, were like you), called them 'false.' You see religion as God's demand for us to have correct and (orthodox) ideas about things. It is a religion that is a 'moral worthiness contest' that, you believe, will win you entrance into the next world.
What these Prophets, "heralds of dissent" are doing, is telling all of us that we need to move from a belief-based religion to a practice-based religion. Just as Jesus critiqued Judaism from within, by its own criteria and its own documents, so too, do these "heralds of dissent" critique the Church of today, by the legitimate documents that came out of Vatican II.
And what they are pointing out, is that the official church offers more doctrinal conclusions, more competing truth claims in the increasingly large marketplace of religious claims. But it seldom gives the people a vision, a process, and practices whereby they can legitimate those truth claims for themselves. And it doesn't guide the people to a spirituality by inner practice and actual practices.
Hmm, faulty reasoning. Your
Hmm, faulty reasoning. Your old age references—could also be applied to the pope, cardinals, and curia. With participation in the sacramental life of the Church so low in Europe and the USA, and folks comfortable with being “spiritual but not religious” how can young retro seminarians and priests expect to pay for their cassocks and birettas if the collection basket fails to be brimmed with the offerings of the “sheep?” Do those who “swing to the right” actually think that Latin Masses, traditional habits and convents, and archaic language will gradually fill our churches to pre Vatican II days?
Do those who “swing to the
Do those who “swing to the right” actually think that Latin Masses, traditional habits and convents, and archaic language will gradually fill our churches to pre Vatican II days?
Seeing as how quickly Churches have been losing members since the 60's, I'm going to have to answer "Yes!"
LGD your version of church as
LGD your version of church as rubrics not only "swings to the right" it "swings to the night" but the darkness you beleve in will not overcome because there is much more to Christ than a dead language or garb.
For your own information, I
For your own information, I am 25. I am single, but I look forward to someday marrying and starting my own family, if that is God's plan for me. I call myself a progressive Catholic, although I do disagree with several positions that are usually assumed to be part of progressive Catholicism; for example, I am pro-life. There are many more like me, including my three younger siblings, one of whom is married and recently had a baby. These "many more" also include a good number of my forty first cousins, as well as several aunts and uncles.
Watch your stereotypes.
We ALL should watch our
We ALL should watch our stereotypes, yes. Such as the belief that all/most progressive Catholics are not pro-life. Every "progressive" I know is not pro-abortion. They are clearly pro-life. Therefore, you are not in disagreement with most progressives: you are one of them. Rejoice!
Yes, OHthor, there are many
Yes, OHthor, there are many who do not fit the stereotype. And there are many who are pro-life in a broad, general sense, but if you were to give them individual situations, you will find that they actually are pro-choice.
Amen ! I am clean for Gene .
Amen ! I am clean for Gene . We may have here the first documented instance of E-Piphany .
AMEN! Good advice: ignore
AMEN!
Good advice: ignore those bishops..... and pray that they will ignore us.
come to the desert and pray
come to the desert and pray in Spanish
really off the episcopal radar!
One can but pray! However
One can but pray! However there are the radical young pups coming from the sem who sound and act as though they would turn the clock back to 1950 or before. Does this very conservative new clergy represent the future or is it an anomaly to a small area? I greatly fear the swing to the right that I see in our church, and many other main line churches, as well as the political arena. Please assure me that Vatican II will not be extinguished!
In their "Mind the Gap: The
In their "Mind the Gap: The Return of the Lay-Clerical Divide" in COMMONWEAL a few years ago, sociologists of religion James Davidson and (the late) Dean Hoge noted that based on longitudinal studies, we can expect to see the greatest "expectation gap" between the laity, old AND young alike, on the one hand, and the so-called "JPII priests" attracted to the cultic/authoritarian priesthood, on the other hand, in a decade or so.
The "young pups" (not necessarily young in age) were/are attracted to ordination by the example of JPII who encouraged promotion of a priesthood having the final say in matters of church governance and administration. They believe their ordinations somehow confer an ontological superiority that ipso facto places them above the rest of us.
If these respected sociologists are correct, expect a rough ride in local parishes between an educated and informed laity and "bossy" pastor.
Let's hope that with Benedict's papacy, we are witnessing the "last gasps" of a dysfunctional and sinful clerical culture going the way of the dodo bird.
PS - Tell pastors to reject the upcoming liturgical translations out of Rome, and use your tithing power as effective leverage. If your pastor is an obnoxious "JPII priest", complain to your bishop and promote organized resistance to the pastor's continued presence.
Please assure me that Vatican
Please assure me that Vatican II will not be extinguished
...
Well, why the heck not? The young folks are taking stock of the changes VII wrought and are deciding: Epic fail.
When you fail, you have to change course. The sensuum fideii is that VII needs to be overturned. People just look at the rubble that is the Church and say: It doesn't have to be this way.
Comparing belief and practice and culture between 1950 and now, it's pretty clear which one is superior.
"The young folks are taking
"The young folks are taking stock of the changes VII wrought and are deciding: Epic fail."
What "young folks"?
See the findings of sociologists of religion James Davidson and Dean Hoge. They conclude, based on longitudinal studies, that we can expect to see the greatest "expectation gap" between the laity, old *and* young (!), and the "JPII priests" in a decade or so.
The "rubble" of which you speak is the Tridentine crap grudgingly yielding to the conciliar renewal.
"All the pope's horses and all the pope's men cannot put ol' Humpty Dumpty back together again!"
Mr Jaglowicz Due respect, but
Mr Jaglowicz Due respect, but can you articulate what the heck is this 'renewal' we need to keep?
And why so afraid of the Tridentine 'crap', if you are so sure of this edifice that the Spirit of VII bishops like Weakland, Mahoney, Law, et al built?
Yes, we younger Catholics have rejected the spirit of innovation and are rebuilding. With a smile. Join us. We are wtih JP the Great, the participant in VII and BXVI the peritus, and we know that VII should not be overturned. Otherwise, we would have been true to our beliefs and joined the FSSP (now, why don't the old dissidents do the same is beyond me...).
But it's pretty clear that the new bishops - Bambera, Dolan and Gomez - are helping to move the ship forward under the reforms of JPII and BXVI have put in place. With more to come.
Come back on the Barque of Peter; we're moving forward again. Finally.
Read Davidson and Hoge's
Read Davidson and Hoge's article.
Peruse Ratzinger's THEOLOGICAL HIGHLIGHTS OF VATICAN II, originally published in 1966 and republished earlier this year.
Then you will have benefit of perspective.
Mr Jaglowicz VII will not be
Mr Jaglowicz VII will not be changed, clearly. VII clearly was not a break w/ the 'Tridentine crap' (nice talk, btw)
It's the mythical Spirit of VII that we are talking about. And Mahoney/Bernardin/Weakland's edifice is not worth saving. The destroyers work will be overturned.
I am an older and retired
I am an older and retired Franciscan priest, but I have often suggested that we could go through Canon Law and just remove all references to "Clerical". Why do we need to divide the Church into "Clerical"" and "Lay" people?
Bless you, Father!
Bless you, Father!
was that not one seed planted
was that not one seed planted at the Second Vatican Council, only to have her just and gentle sprout cruelly ripped out by its roots, leaving this bitter harvest we now reap in tears?
Um, doesn't the gospel make
Um, doesn't the gospel make the distinction between Apostle, Disciple, Deacon and people?
In the New Testament, any
In the New Testament, any distinctions were based on service/function/gifts, not on any kind of lay-clerical divide that would only gradually come into play a few centuries later.
As one theologian put it, every Christian in the primitive churches was a priest by virtue of his/her baptism. There was no ordination to ministry.
"The meaning of Vatican II," according to theologian Bernard Lonergan (as quoted by Robert Egan in a COMMONWEAL article), "was the acknowledgement of history." In pruning the accretions of subsequent church history, we are retrieving our ecclesial roots. We are gradually coming to understand that ministerial ordination is to the service/function of presbyter or bishop, not to the priesthood, which is conferred on all men and women at their baptism.
The ontological superiority of the ordained prevalent in the pre-Vatican II church and favored by JPII and B16 was a historical development.
We are witnessing the gradual but (hopefully) real dismantling of this lay-clerical divide.
Breakdown leading to breakthrough.
Can't come soon enough!
service/function/gifts, not
service/function/gifts, not on any kind of lay-clerical divide that would only gradually come into play a few centuries later
...
Mr Jagolowicz So correct; lay/priest/deacon.
Thanks for clear it up.
From the context, we are
From the context, we are referring to the divide between lay and ordained. Davidson and Hoge use the word 'clerical' to refer to those ordained to the presbyterate.
In the primitive Christian churches, there was no ordained ministry. The liturgical presider, the episkopos or presbyteros (same functions, title depending on local usage), was also the community leader. Indeed, it was community leadership that served as the basis for liturgical leadership. As one theologian has noted, there were no laity in the earliest churches because everybody, male and female alike, was a priest by virtue of his or her baptism. At worship, the presider functioned as the "lead priest".
In these earliest communities, deacons and liturgical leaders were not ordained to ministry.
Because everybody was a true priest, there was not the lay-clerical divide that we see today.
I agree that there is plenty
I agree that there is plenty of work to be done to renew the Church and that perhaps the best use of our spiritual energy is to do what we can in that area. We do have some outstanding leadership in Chittister, Carroll, McBrien, Wills and the like. I am always interested in what they have to say. Their insights give me heart and motivation, and I am very appreciative of their thoughts, their continuing efforts to make some sense of today's Church leadership, and their own faithfulness.
Well spoken....remaining
Well spoken....remaining loyal to the sacramental church and supportive of those voices calling out for internal reformation....6
Something is afoot in the
Something is afoot in the world. This the the third op ed on this topic that I have read in the last month. The good thing about this is, for now, the confirmation that I am not alone.
Amen!
Amen!
AMEN!
AMEN!
Professor Kennedy describes
Professor Kennedy describes the glory days of the Church's past so well, it makes one long for them to return. The days of pomp and majesty, as befits the One true Church Christ Himself founded. The Church has suffered profoundly since Vatican II and Pope Paul VI's decision to simply the Church's life and practices.
I take enormous consolation in the fact that the majority of young men currently studying for the priesthood are men who are far more at home with so-called triumphalism and are not ashamed for the Church to be what she is supposed to be. These young men and the majority of priests ordained in the last few years, are proud to wear the cassock around the house and around town, are proud to wear the biretta and the farraiolo. Indeed, more and more bishops seem to be willing to dress the way in which they are supposed to. They are undoubtedly taking their lead from our Holy Father, Pope Benedict, who is truly blessing the Church by his restoration of the traditional "trappings" of the papacy.
Vatican II and its more radical followers tried to strip the Church of the glory that is its due. Fortunately, and most happily, those days are long over. And good riddance.
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