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Women priests offer differing approaches to valid ordination
In 2002 seven Roman Catholic women were ordained in Austria on the Danube River by an independent Catholic bishop, Romulo Antonio Braschi. Later unnamed Roman Catholic bishops ordained some of these women priests as bishops. These women bishops, in turn, have been ordaining other women deacons, priests and bishops. From this beginning there has developed a movement, Roman Catholic Womenpriests (RCWP), which presently claims four women bishops and 45 women priests in the United States, as well as others in Europe and Canada. This movement has shaped a thoughtful ecclesiology defining itself both as in valid succession in the Roman Catholic tradition and also as a valid reform that is reclaiming the authentic discipleship of equals of the earliest church based on the redemptive mission of Christ.(1)
Rejecting the papal declaration of May 28, 2008, that the women and the male bishops who originally ordained them are "excommunicated latae sententiae" (automatically), RCWP declared that "we will continue to serve our beloved church in a renewed priestly ministry that welcomes all to celebrate the sacraments in inclusive, Christ-centered, Spirit-empowered communities wherever we are called." RCWP claims to stand in "apostolic succession" based on the validity of the episcopal ordination of their founding bishop:
Clearly the pope does not agree with this view. For him the women bishops, priests and deacons — as well as the originating bishops — are automatically excommunicated, based on the fact that these ordinations took place against church teaching and without papal approval. Besides this, there is the theological assumption that women by their very nature are incapable of receiving valid ordination as priests in the Roman Catholic Church.(3) (The Vatican mentality toward women was revealed on July 15, 2010, with the release of a document lumping sexual abuse of children by priests and women's ordination as both "very grave crimes.") What then is the concept of "apostolic succession" and "full communion with the pope" that this movement assumes can be unaffected by this profound conflict with papal authority?
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Before discussing this issue, let us look at a different approach to valid ordination that has emerged in a faith community in San Diego, Calif., under the leadership of one of the Roman Catholic Womenpriests, Jane Via. Desiring to create and be a part of a vibrant Catholic community that reflected her vision of what such a community should be, Via, a religious educator and lawyer, developed, with the help of ex-priest Rod Stephens, the Mary Magdalene Apostle Catholic Community (MMACC) in 2005.
For some years Nancy Corran, a woman of Protestant background who holds a degree in theology from Oxford and a Master's of Divinity degree from the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, Calif., has served with Jane Via and Rod Stephens as a pastoral associate. In 2009 Corran decided that she wanted to become a Catholic in the context of the Mary Magdalene community. The leadership of the Mary Magdalene church decided to call her as a priest to their community. However they decided not to call a bishop from the RCWP movement to come and ordain her, but rather to ordain her as a collective action of their faith community. They based their right to do this on their reading of early church history in which they learned that Christians in the early centuries had called priests and ordained them through the collective action of local faith communities. This ordination of Corran to the deaconate and then to the priesthood by the collective action of MMACC took place July 30 and 31, 2010. Everyone in the community, including the children, laid hands on Corran and signed the official paper as her ordainers.
This decision by MMACC has caused consternation among some in the RCWP movement. Some have even suggested that this action undermines the "apostolic succession" of their movement. By implication the ordination of Corran would be outside of this lineage of "apostolic succession." The emergence of this difference sparks inquiry into the basis of this concept of "apostolic succession" which has become so important for the RCWP movement, and upon which they base the validity of their own ordinations, despite its repudiation by the pope. Why does the leadership of MMACC feel they can disregard this, even though Via was herself ordained in this movement? What does "apostolic succession" as the basis of valid ordination of priests by bishops mean?
This concept of apostolic succession is widely contested. Although claimed by Roman Catholicism, most Protestants, based on historical studies of early Christianity, see this as an historical fiction with little basis in "apostolic" or first century Christianity. In the view of most modern church historians, first and second century Christianity was highly diverse. Christianity manifested itself in several movements that reflected a variety of world views of the time. In many cities of the eastern Mediterranean, such as Alexandria, some of the first Christian groups were Gnostics of various kinds.
According to the gospels, Jesus chose 12 disciples in his life time.(4) After his death, one of them, Judas Iscariot, the traitor of Jesus, was replaced by Matthias by collective action of the remaining 11 disciples (Acts I: 15-26). But these 12 disciples have left little record of evangelizing Gentiles and founding churches around the world. In fact, the original idea of the 12 disciples probably was intended to represent the 12 tribes of Israel, not a group of worldwide founders of churches from which a succession of bishops descended.
The concept of a Gentile church drawn from all nations originated with the evangelizing mission of Paul, himself not a member of Jesus' original disciples, but rather a convert to the Christian movement after Jesus' death. In the story of the spread of Christianity outside Palestine, the names of most of the 12 disciples disappear. The only ones claimed to be related to areas outside Palestine are Peter, associated with Antioch and also with Rome (in death), John in Ephesus, although not as a church founder, and Thomas in India, the last of questionable historicity.(5)
The concept of a monarchical episcopacy; that is, city-based churches headed by a bishop in hierarchical power above elders (presbyters) and deacons, emerged slowly between the late first and early third centuries. Ignatius of Antioch claimed such a monarchical episcopacy for himself in the church of Antioch in letters written in the early 2nd century on his way to martyrdom in Rome, but he makes no mention of Peter as the founding apostle of his church.(6) Irenaeus of Lyons, combating various gnosticisms in his writings Against the Heresies in the late second century, expounds the idea of a succession of teachers that guarantee apostolic teaching versus gnostics. For him the church of Rome is the primary example of such a succession of bishop-teachers. (7)
Several "tools" of orthodoxy emerged in this period. One was a canonical New Testament composed of writings known to be of older tradition and hence as "apostolic." These were seen as distinguishable from the plurality of writings circulating among the churches that used the names of apostles — such as the Gospel of Peter, the Acts of Peter and the Revelation of Peter, the Acts of Andrew and the Acts of John — but perceived as heretical in content.(8) A historical lineage of teaching going back to the 1st or early 2nd centuries, guaranteed by a succession of bishop-teachers, was seen as validating this apostolic tradition. These tools emerged in order to separate what was being defined as orthodoxy against the plurality of other traditions of a more gnostic type.
In the process of defining this "apostolic tradition" against the "heresies," writers like Irenaeus constructed an historical argument that posited that what was emerging as "orthodoxy" in the late 2nd century was the original teaching of Jesus and the apostles — while the various other forms of Christianity were decried as later deviations. Modern historians generally have decided that the historical reality was more the opposite of this schema. In other words, many variant Christianities were actually earlier. What was being defined as orthodoxy was a construct that emerged later. The successful purge of this earlier diversity allowed the emerging orthodoxy to claim historical originality.(9)
Hippolytus of Rome
A lineage of bishops descending from founding apostles of leading churches was the key idea in this emerging claim of "apostolic teaching." In this construct the twelve disciples were sent forth around the world, founded churches in key cities with themselves as founding bishops, and gave each church an apostolic teaching that was identical. The succession of bishops descended from the founding apostle carried this same teaching unchanged through the generations. This concept of apostolic succession, with successions of bishop-descendents of founding apostles, bears little basis in the historical reality of how Christianity actually spread, although it was a useful (and doubtless sincerely believed) idea to define an emerging orthodoxy for churches seeking a common front against their rivals.
Rome was an early claimant for this role of guarantor of apostolic teaching, although, interestingly enough, the monarchical bishop appears to have been slow to emerge there. The 2nd century "orthodox" Roman church was one among several Christian groups in the city. But this emerging church maintained into the third century a more collective form of church government in which the bishop was a leading elder, rather than a monarchical bishop in hierarchical relation over the other elders. (10)
A significant document that testifies to the tradition of this Roman church is that of Hippolytus of Rome, a Greek-born presbyter of this church who wrote in the early 3rd century a treatise called The Apostolic Tradition. Hippolytus was a rigorist thinker who sought to exclude various heresies from acceptance. He was briefly elected bishop as a rival to a more lax leader of the church, Callistus, who later tradition defines as "pope" from 217-222 A.D. Hippolytus, writing in The Apostolic Tradition, reflects his own memory of how things were done in this church back into the mid-second century. Significantly he assumes a collective authority in which the church as a whole or "all the people" together call the bishop. The presbyters and "any bishops who happen to be present" give their consent and lay hands on this leader. Clearly what is understood as the church order of mid-second to early third century Rome is one of collective calling and ordination by the local faith community as a whole.(11) This is the tradition claimed by Mary Magdalene Apostle Catholic Community today.
The notion of the "apostles," that is, the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus, founding churches and inaugurating a succession of monarchical bishops, became formulated in its historical form in the late second and third centuries and appears as a set idea in the History of the Church by Eusebius, who wrote successive versions of this work from 305 to 330 AD. For Eusebius, orthodoxy was guaranteed by apostolic succession through the foundation of churches by apostles and the passing down of identical apostolic teaching through their succession of bishops in each church. Eusebius has many references to bishops of various churches from Asia Minor to Italy, but he can only produce continuous lists from apostolic times to his own time for four leading churches: Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and Rome.(12) He has a few partial lists for other churches, such as Corinth, but does not claim apostolic founders for them.
Eusebius of Caesarea
Careful examination of his lists for the four leading churches raises the question whether any of these were actually founded by one of the 12 apostles. Jerusalem claims as its founding leader, James, the brother of Jesus, who was not a disciple in Jesus' time, but was converted to Christianity after his death. The names of 12 Jewish leaders of this church "of the circumcision" are claimed from the time of James until the Roman destruction of the city in 139 A.D. when this church disappeared. But it is hard to imagine that this extensive list actually represents a succession of monarchical bishops, rather than names of coexisting leaders. When this church disappeared in 139 A.D., a second list of bishops is claimed for a gentile church in a newly founded Roman city near Jerusalem, but one is puzzled about how this list can be seen as continuing the line from James, Jesus brother.
The lineage of Alexandria does not claim an apostle founder but cites Mark, author of the Gospel of that name, as its founder. But the succession of bishops of that city is likely a later construct, as orthodoxy gradually asserted itself against earlier gnosticisms. In Antioch, "where the disciples were first called Christians" (Acts11:26) Peter was apparently present on more than one occasion. Eusebius claims Peter was the first bishop of Antioch, with Ignatius as his second successor,(13) but Ignatius himself seems unaware of this.
Rome, which became the model for the idea of apostolic succession, claims both Peter and Paul as founders. But we know that the church of Rome already existed at the time of Paul's ministry in Greece, when Peter had not been to Rome. Peter may have been martyred there, but did not found the church of Rome and was probably not a leader there, much less a "bishop." So, in each case, the connection of later bishop lists to a supposedly founding apostle fades on examination.
Not only is there a historical gap between apostles and later bishop lists, but also, this original concept of apostolic succession that developed in the late second to fourth centuries did not originally have anything to do with passing down the priestly power to do Eucharist from Jesus to apostles to bishops (who were thereby empowered to ordain other bishops and priests with the charism to do Eucharist). Apostolic succession was originally about apostolic teaching,(14) not priestly power to do Eucharist. It was a way of claiming a unitary form of Christian teaching from Jesus through the apostles for a lineage of bishop-teachers that could be defined across churches against heretics, thus ruling out the earlier diversity of forms of Christianity.
The idea of apostolic succession as a transmission of Eucharistic power from Jesus and the apostles to bishops is a later idea that emerges slowly to replace the earlier emphasis on a lineage of apostolic teaching. It becomes fully developed only in the 12th century when a concept of priesthood is defined based on the power to "confect" the Eucharist (that is, the power to turn the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ), as the central idea of ordination, excluding earlier ideas of ordination based on installation into various offices. This earlier view of ordination as installation into holding offices allowed various people to be seen as ordained, including women as queens, abbesses and deaconesses.
As ordination came to be linked primarily with priesthood and its ability to "confect" the Eucharist the idea of ordination as installation into an office was eliminated and, with it, the possibility of women being ordained. Only men who share Christ's maleness could inherit this power to do Eucharist which was supposedly passed down from Christ himself to his twelve apostles and from them to their bishop-descendents. Thus the triumph of a priestly eucharistic concept of ordination, passed down through apostolic succession, is itself an integral part of a process in which women were eliminated as ordainable.(15)
Ironically, it is this 12th century concept of apostolic succession as the transmission of the power to do Eucharist which is claimed by the RCWP movement as they lift up the episcopal ordination of their founding bishops as proof of the validity of their own ordinations. This concept of valid ordination, transmitted through the apostolic succession from their founding bishops, works only if one implicitly assumes a mechanistic view of the transmission of this power from one bishop to another. In other words, ordination in apostolic succession is assumed to transmit a kind of spiritual power as a personal "possession" which the ordained persons can dispose of as they wish — apart from agreement with the pope as authorizer in the Roman Catholic Church of who can or should be ordained.
This power can then be assumed to continue in force, even allowing the bishop ordaining the women to be described as in "full communion with the pope" despite being excommunicated by the pope. Thus being in "communion" with the pope in this context has nothing to do with being in agreement with the pope on who can be ordained, but rather as possessing this ordaining power as a personal endowment that can be transmitted to others by engaging in the sacramental act of ordaining.
By contrast, the leaders of Mary Magdalene Apostle Catholic Community go back to a much earlier view of church and ordination closer to apostolic times, manifested in Hippolytus' treatise on The Apostolic Tradition. Here ordination has to do with installing a person in an office of teacher and worship leader for a faith community who "all the people" of that community call and ordain collectively.
Does this mean that the MMACC community is "right" in their views, and the RCWP should abandon their faulty claims to apostolic succession? This is not the point. Rather both movements can recognize their common ground on which both can claim the validity of their divergent forms of ordination. This common ground lies in a history and tradition of Christian churches as faith communities linked to the past through memory and through constant imaginative efforts to reconstruct what is most life-giving in their traditions and to base themselves on faithful reproduction of that life-giving tradition. RCWP and MMACC are both seeking to be "apostolic" in their thinking and living through different versions of that process.
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(1) "Ordinations," romancatholicwomenpriests.org
(2) Ibid.
(3) This view of women's incapacity to be ordained due to the defective nature of femaleness was developed by Thomas Aquinas, based on Aristotelian anthropology. See Kari Borreson, Subordination and Equivalence: The Nature and Role of Women in Augustine and Thomas Aquinas (Washington, D.C.: University Press of America, 1981), pp. 236-239.
(4) The lists of 12 apostles are found in Matthew 10:2-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16. Acts 1:13 contains eleven names, dropping Judas Iscariot. The lists are not fully consistent. Matthew and Mark list a Thaddeus. Luke and Acts lack this name, but have Jude, son of James instead.
(5) See the Wikipedia articles on "John the Apostle" and "Thomas the Apostle."
(6) See The Letters of Ignatius of Antioch, Gerald G. Walsh, trans. The Apostolic Fathers, The Fathers of the Church, vol. 1 (NY: CIMA Publishing Company, 1947), pp. 83-127.
(7) Irenaeus, Against the Heresies, III.3,23
(8) See Harry Y. Gamble, The New Testament Canon: Its Making and Meaning (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1985).
(9) The scholar whose work helped establish this view is Walter Bauer, Orthodoxy and Heresy in Early Christianity (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1971).
(10) See Kurt Aland, A History of Christianity, vol. 1 (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1985), p. 120.
(11) The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus, Burton Scott Easton, trans. (Archon Books,1962).
(12) Eusebius, The History of the Church from Christ to Constantine, G.A. Williamson, trans. (Minneapolis, MN: Augsburg Publishing House, 1965) appendix, pp. 415-17.
(13) Ibid., p. 145 (Book III.36)
(14) See Irenaeus, op.cit., who refers to the succession of bishops at Rome as teachers who all agreed in teaching "right doctrine," offering no "secret teaching."
(15) For a key book showing the development of this kind of view of ordination and the suppression of earlier forms of ordination that included women, see Gary Macy, The Hidden History of Women's Ordination (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2007).





Good for them. I find the
Good for them. I find the notion of women seeking "ordination" in the way men think it should be done odd and repellent.
Jesus said at the Last Supper: Do this in memory of me. Do what the first Christians did. Enjoy a meal together, presided over by the woman or man who was the host. Eat, drink, sing.
Do what the first Christians
Do what the first Christians did? How about do what *Christ* did.
The piece above states: "In fact, the original idea of the 12 disciples probably was intended to represent the 12 tribes of Israel, not a group of worldwide founders of churches from which a succession of bishops descended."
What brand of amazing sophistry permits someone to assert that, oh, maybe, just maybe, the Twelve represent the twelve tribes of Israel, but NOT a group of "worldwide founders" from a "succession of bishops descended"?????
So, what, Rosemary--never heard of the Twelve PATRIARCHS of Israel??? They were a group of worldwide founders of a *nation* from which a succession of TRIBES descended.
A breathtaking example of not seeing the forest for the trees--all to support the fiction of women's ordination?
You need to do some reading.
You need to do some reading. Start with the footnotes to the article. Maybe Gary Macy's book.
Your notions about the tribes of Israel are as uninformed as the rest of your ideas.
Show me where Paul received
Show me where Paul received laying on of the hands for his ministry from the apostles or bishops?
Won't find any.
The only reference was in acts where he received laying on of the hands to go on mission and that was at the hands of teachers!
Nowhere, does it say Paul was
Nowhere, does it say Paul was ordained by teachers either. He says in Corinthians, "what I received from you" and goes on with the rite of institution of the eucharist. One cannot conclude from that, or anything else Paul writes from whom he received his apostolic authority--which is the wider context in which the power to preach and to serve the eucharist has to be seen.
There is every reason to believe he was ordained or received his commission from either Peter, John, James, or Andrew. Why would Paul have to bother being ordained by some local presbyter/bishop if he's constantly in the company of at least one of the apostles? The scanty and inconclusive evidence still points to the likelihood Paul received the laying on of hands from an apostle.
Paul got the "whacked upside
Paul got the "whacked upside the head so hard he went blind personal invitation from Jesus himself” ministry calling. Probably the sportiest invitation of the lot as far as style points is concerned; face to face meetings with Jesus as the gold standard notwithstanding. In any case, Paul’s calling appears more impressive than that of Saint Matthias, although I have some reservations with Paul’s claim to be an “apostle”.
St Paul did not need laying
St Paul did not need laying on of hands since Jesus made him an apostle and bishop when he called him. Jesus does not need ordination cermonies to make one a priest. bishop or apostle. He left it to the church to make up these
for future generations.
...Did not Paul also say that
...Did not Paul also say that women need to be quiet? Paul never ordained women. I don't understand why they are still pushing this topic. If they want to wear the same thing that men wear at mass,...well, there is the door. Episcopalians would love them.
Wow--you've got to be pulling
Wow--you've got to be pulling my leg--I "need to do some reading"???
It's the *article* itself that grudgingly admits of at least "some" connection between the Twelve and the Twelve "tribes" of Israel. I'm simply asserting how ludicrous it is to stop there, as though the *identity* of each of those Twelve tribes really did not originate with the Twelve *Patriarchs* of Israel.
It's actually really simple, in terms of the Twelve and apostolic succession (and YES, I've read plenty on this)--Jesus called the Twelve to be the new patriarchs of the new Israel--the Church. Those Twelve, like the Twelve Patriarchs of Israel, would have "offspring"--they would beget "spiritual" sons as their successors instead of biological sons.
This was the symbol at work both in ancient Israel AND in the Church established by Jesus Christ through the Twelve and their successors.
Do some reading. (Scholarly
Do some reading. (Scholarly books, not EWTN tracts.)
"Scholarly"??? By "scholarly"
"Scholarly"??? By "scholarly" I'm sure you mean "books containing opinions that agree with mine..."
Been there done that, got the T-Shirt.
Anyone convinced?
Anyone convinced?
Scholarly books are written
Scholarly books are written by scholars, published by publishers of scholarly books, and reviewed by other scholars in scholarly journals. Rosemary, of course, is a scholar. You, of course, are not.
Well, since you actually
Well, since you actually weren't there, you have no idea what the importance of the choice of 12 apostles was. It could have been the 12 tribes, 12 patriarchs, or Jesus could have only been able to find a boat with room for 12 when He took them out on the Sea of Galilee. Or, since the gospels were written between 1 and 5 generations after Jesus died, and it is suspected that three of them were written by the same person, it could be that these were oral traditions passed down through early believers. But, hey, if you want to hang your faith on some tangential fact like this, please, feel free.
That's exactly what I thought
That's exactly what I thought when I read this commentator's "ideas"! He's either been drinking from the EWTN-propaganda fountain for a long time and/or he went to Steubenville.
How about this: womens
How about this: womens ordination is not just old news, but an old JOKE.
How gullable you are! The
How gullable you are! The big fiction is men's ordination!
Dear Anonymous I certainly
Dear Anonymous I certainly enjoyed reading your opinion about the way women should NOT seek ordination. I confess, though, I didn't understand it.
On the topic of evolution of the way things came to be the way they are over ecclesitical history following the Resurrection, Pentecost and Paul's conversion, Harvey Cox's latest book, THE FUTURE OF FAITH provides much light. Harvey Cox had private conversations with two popes including B XVI; he regretted never having met Pope John XXIII. Although "apostolic succession" is not his entire focus (the movement from diversity in faith through uniform belief/orthodoxy and where this tension is headed provides the thread of his work). He does, however, make use of identical sources. And thus appears a parallel. Diversity characterized the church-es and their modus operandi immediately following Pentecost. Over the first three centuries stuff happened. Finally the pagan Emperor Constantine the Great (by convening, running the Nicene Council and determining its results)made the church of the nations the ROMAN church. Dr. Reuther addresses two sides of an issue of ordination: apostolic succession and authority. Dr. Cox is concerned about a historical christianity (especially as expressed in the RC church) and how to break the dilemma posed by living faith and orthodox belief. I found Dr. Reuther's essay, Dr. Cox's book and this comment by Anonymous good travel companions in reflection.
Anyone in the US or Europe is
Anyone in the US or Europe is free to start their own religion and even call it Catholic, but it should be ilegal to call it Roman Catholic. These women have started there own church an the should pick their own name for it.
It should also be illegal to
It should also be illegal to call Catholic churches outside of Roman "Roman Catholic" as well.
Given Pope Benedict's recent dropping of his title, "Patriarch of the West", it is clear he doesn't see himself as that now because in a very real, theological and canonical sense, he isn't. Nor should he see the larger latin rite of the Church Universal as "Roman" either.
If the pope's legal defense has any theological weight and I think it does, can we say the pope is the local bishop's EMPLOYER? Canon law explicitly says every Catholic has a spiritual leader, the local bishop. If the local bishop isn't dependent upon Rome for his valid ordination and is no longer an employee, what does the bishop owe Pope Benedict? What do you as a layperson owe Pope Benedict?
Unlike converts to Catholicism, you as a "cradle Catholic" didn't swear fealty to the See of Peter, nor did your godparents at your baptism. They were asked if YOU believed the articles of the apostles/Nicene creed and did you renounce the Devil, nothing else.
The ties that bind us are getting thinner and thinner. In time our liturgy will no longer be strictly from Rome. In name only. More like the liturgy of Rockville Center Long Island, or the Liturgy of St. Louis, etc. Your local church is the perfect image and icon of the entire Mystical Body of Christ, the Church. Where you have One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, and as St. Ignatius would say, One Bishop. No mention of Peter or Benedict XVI here.
"...can we say the pope is
"...can we say the pope is the local bishop's EMPLOYER? Canon law explicitly says every Catholic has a spiritual leader, the local bishop. If the local bishop isn't dependent upon Rome for his valid ordination and is no longer an employee, what does the bishop owe Pope Benedict? What do you as a layperson owe Pope Benedict?"
## The model of *communion* is better at reflecting what the Church is, than models derived from business and employment. Popes are not the employers of the bishops, but their superiors & their equals & their servants: at least in principle. The employment model covers very few aspects of what, theologically, bishops are, & what the Church is. It's not adequate for discussing the subject of responsibility & authority in the Church.
Popes are not a feudal superiors either (though they were); and the Church is not a feudal entity. A feudal model does a very poor job of reflecting the *mystery* of the Church. The Bible as a whole, & especially the NT, is a very rich source of models of the Church
This is about community. You
This is about community.
You make a good point: "Do this in memory of me". Those truly sacred words bring a lump to my throat. In this context, I would hasten to add the words:"Whenever two or three are gathered in my name..., is also about community, the communion of the faithful.
Wow! Profound, prophetic, sweet and endearing words from our Blessed and Beloved Savior. And, another lump in my throat.
Personally, I think the pope is missing something and it is around the idea of Christian(Christ-like) community. Truly, we are a Christian community here on this forum, not in body but, most certainly, in spirit. We are a seeking community, seeking after... You fill in the rest.
I think it was this pope(B16) who said something like: he would rather have a smaller following of TRUE Catholics rather than a larger following of lukewarm Catholics. Has he cast the die? Then, so be it. I wonder, does he realize that only about 5% or maybe 10% of Catholics( Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, Alito, Kennedy, Hannity, O'Reilly, Ingraham, Malkin, Cavuto, Van Susteren, etc) are as fundamentalist as he is. The remainder of us have seen far too much since St. Reagan, the GOP and the Vatican/hierarchy associated themselves, back in the late 70s.
NOW, after the 2001 elections, clearly engineered and manipulated(Scalia, Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris) "hanging chads" corruption/debacle of our laws and political process, I became a Dem, totally. I no longer vote for Repubs and probably never will. Nor can I align myself with anyone or group that does.
A tangled web---
Oh what a tangled web they weave...; truely, a dirty, foul and diabolically tangled web was and still is being woven. War, killing, oil, American exceptionalism, nation building, democracy building abroad, democracy killing at home, seeking after another "Pearl Harbor Event", Trickle-down economics, endless profit for the 1% Super Rich, war profiteering(Carlyle Group)constant attacks on the middle class working families, etc, ad infinitum, ad nauseam.
So then, why does the Vatican's chief exorcist wonder why evil seems to lurk in the Vatican. By their choices, deeds and actions, that's why!
Blessings, and all the best--
bob
Everyone! Read the Gary Macy
Everyone! Read the Gary Macy book in Rosemary's bibliography. You'll be surprised, delighted, enlightened.
"There can be no Christian
"There can be no Christian community without the Eucharist; therefore, the Christian community has a right to the Eucharist. But there can be no Eucharist without the priest; therefore, the Christian community ought to have the right to ordain the priests it needs."
Bishop Valkfredo Bernardo Tepe, OFM, of Ilheus, Brazil, at the 1990 Synod of priestly formation, paraphrased by Peter Hebblethwaite, NCR, 10 19 90.
“The true lights of the Church, those who are most important for the eternal salvation of mankind as well as of individuals are not the Pope, the bishops or the cardinals in their red cassocks, but those who possess and radiate most faith, hope and love, most humility and unselfishness, most fortitude in carrying the cross, most happiness and confidence.
If a Pope does all this as well or perhaps even better than, for example, John XXIII, well, then he is not only a Pope but a wonderful Christian, then it happens that, if I may say so, the president of the chess club is for once also himself a great chess player. But this would be a happy coincidence which God is not bound to bring about and which he has not guaranteed.
If we are looking at the Church in this way, we shall not find it difficult to accept that the cashier is responsible for the finances and the president of this holy society directs its activities. But we ought to remain conscious of what is both our pride and our burden, namely that the Church depends ultimately on ourselves.”
(Karl Rahner, Grace in Freedom - http://www.religion online.org/showchapter.asp?title=2079&C=1960 )
They should commission
They should commission themselves Colonels in the USMC too.
They could tell salty tales, carry swager sticks, and wear dress blues for Halloween.
Wake up, Anon. There ARE
Wake up, Anon. There ARE women colonels (and other officers) in the Marine Corps and all the branches of the services. Generals, too. We are, after all, in the 21st century.... So your point is...?
They didn't show up one day
They didn't show up one day and say "I'm a colonel."
Let this 20 year Marine help
Let this 20 year Marine help you understand... his point was that simply dressing up and calling yourself a marine does not make you one. The actual women Marines gothe that way through boot camp or OCS - not on the sly like these fake priestesess did.
The men just showed up one
The men just showed up one day and hijacked the christian comunity booted out the women and decided to make themselves Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, and Popes.
And precisely what day was
And precisely what day was that? And why didn't the christian community resist their efforts at the time as sexist, etc...etc...etc...? Just asking.
Monk McG, the lady colonels
Monk McG, the lady colonels were finally accepted by the Corps and by the people of the US through their elected representatives. The lady priests have had to become "priestesses" on the sly, as you put it, because they were given no choice.
Like the Marine Corps finally accepting lady colonels, the Pope's Corps will do the same with the women priests in time.
Those who are Colonels or
Those who are Colonels or Admirals were made so through the proper and only channels. They did not just decide to say they were Officers, nor did they seek their commissions from those who did not have the capacity or authority to commission them.
There was a time in American
There was a time in American history when officers were elected by their men, although that was usually in the militia and not the Corps.
Good Old "R-cubed"-good to
Good Old "R-cubed"-good to see she's still fighting the good fight-
Jon Altman,
Garrett-Evangelical Theologicl Seminary
M.Div., 1986
Thank you, Rosemary for your
Thank you, Rosemary for your last comment. It's not about being right, whether their ordinations are valid if they are not done in the traditional way, by a bishop who is part of the apostolic succession. It can be reasoned that the "group ordination" is also valid. I would not want to see the women priest movement divided over this. This is a perfect example of how differences can be worked out. Bravo, Rosemary! And thanks again for coming to the Twin Cities earlier this summer. You were great.
Thank you for printing this
Thank you for printing this piece of scholarship!
The hierarchy has muzzled honest scholarship that differs from their limited understanding of ordination.
It has been muzzled by the hierarchy in favor of maintaining a static, self-justifying, "passing the baton" construct.Fear, fear, fear rule the hierarchy.
Mary Stone, it is also a
Mary Stone, it is also a matter of money too. Fear, power, and money. The anal retentive old divas sense they're losing it. They're right, they are.
You can quote as many people
You can quote as many people out of context as you want. The simple truth is that the "ordination" of women to the priesthood is absolutely INVALID. All the wishful thinking in the world will not change that simple truth, and that is all that needs to be said.
Joseph, did you actually READ
Joseph, did you actually READ Dr. Ruether's paper? As one of her former students, I can assure you that just reacting to the headline is not a good strategy-gradewise.
sucking up apparently
sucking up apparently is.
Women cannot be ordained. Sorry. Not going to happen.
Do you know what we call women that dress like priests where I come from? Cross dressers.
That's funny. I thought that
That's funny. I thought that when women put dresses on, they'd be dressed like traditional women. As for the priests.........
PS Women have already been ordained, including behind the iron curtain in our lifetimes as well as in the early church. Married men are already ordained. Instead of the incredible arabesques performed by the hierarchy, stating the rules to include one and deny another, why can't we place the Eucharist and its grace as our priority? The leaders want doctrinal purity instead. Did our Lord say that? When our church has said that in the past, has it been seen as faithful later, or merely human and short-sighted?
I don't know what you are
I don't know what you are implying. I do not think I have ever seen a priest wear a dress.
Besides, why would a sensitive and open-minded person like yourself look down on someone who merely wants to express his or her inner self by dressing a certain way? Surely you don't mean transvestitism is wrong.
"Do you know what we call
"Do you know what we call women that dress like priests where I come from? Cross dressers."
...and where you come from; what do you call bishops who dress in 'pink', cardinals who dress in 'red', pope who dresses like a bride adorned all in 'white'...indeed all dressed in frilly, lacy, long gowns. Imagine Xt appearing and looking at these misogynists dressed as women.
"Do you know what we call
"Do you know what we call women that dress like priests where I come from? Cross dressers."
...and where you come from; what do you call bishops who dress in 'pink', cardinals who dress in 'red', pope who dresses like a bride adorned all in 'white'...indeed all dressed in frilly, lacy, long gowns. Imagine Xt appearing and looking at these misogynists dressed as women.
Don't forget those fancy cocktail rings with jeweled miters too. Now I'm waiting for the pope to bring back the old unofficial pontificalia: earrings, garters, white mink stole, and those old high heels he's got hidden in his closet.
I love this digression. It
I love this digression. It shows that you two don't have a theological leg to stand on in this debate.
"priests dress like girls...giggle/giggle we showed them.
Hey Jeff all the theological
Hey Jeff all the theological hocus pocus with million dollar words don't make a difference. Showing all the archeological proof in the world that there were women in the priesthood of the early church or in the 20th century behind the iron curtain makes no difference. They risked their lives to keep faith alive but it makes no difference to the Vaticanistas who refuse this Truth. Those guys and their minions don't care about Jesus or Truth. They care about Power.
Says who? Did Jesus give us
Says who? Did Jesus give us formulae for ordination? Where is there any ordination ceremony described in Scripture? All this fuss over valid orders and apostolic succession! Sounds like magic to me.
Just read Acts and you will
Just read Acts and you will see that the apostles "laid hands on" those who they were ordaining to orders. Also look at the consecrations of Aaron and his sons in Leviticus. It's all right there.
Who laid hands on Paul,
Who laid hands on Paul, anonymous?
Other than the teachers in Antioch when he went on mission, nobody did.
Did Christ?
He would have had to return to earth, lay hands on Paul, then undergo a second Ascension!
Paul spent much of his
Paul spent much of his ministry in the company of Peter, Andrew, Luke, John, and Mark. Anyone of whom could have laid hands or ordained him. It is unimaginable, if not inconceivable, that Paul, an observant Jew, and very well educated student of Rabbi Gamaliel perhaps the leading Jewish scholar of the first century, and a detail man to his finger tips, would have stepped outside of established chains of command and used extraordinary means to receive his authority or his apostolic mission from a mere local presbyter/bishop.
For information on the
For information on the history of Christian ordination, please see my comments posted August 2 & 5 at http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=3876. Title of thread is "Participatio Actuosa".
The primitive Christian communities (from which the Church of Rome claims descent) did not have sacerdotal ordination to ministry. Their eucharists (communal acts of thanksgiving) were presided by an unordained person whose liturgical leadership was predicated on his community leadership.
Ordination was a historical development.
As for references in the Old Testament, foreshadowing proves nothing. Jesus, in fact, was born a Jew, lived life a Jew, died a Jew, rose from the dead a Jew, and ascended to heaven a Jew. His immediate disciples knew only the Jewish faith and its priesthood. Only over time would Christian Jews gradually establish separate religious communities as they were no longer welcomed at Jewish services and lost certain protections accorded by Roman law to Jews.
Ordination per se is not at all a part of the deposit of faith, defined as all that God has definitively revealed through Christ for our salvation.
Holy orders is one of the 7
Holy orders is one of the 7 sacrements instituted by Christ. He said "do this in memory of me" That confered priesthood on them. Christ left it up to the church for future generations on how to confer Holy Orders.
"That conferred priesthood
"That conferred priesthood ["Holy Orders"] on them."
Your statement reflects doctrinal belief, not historical fact.
Jesus and his disciples knew only the Jewish faith and its priesthood. The liturgical presiders in the primitive Christian churches were unordained community leaders. Depending on particular community nomenclature, they were known as presbyteroi or episkopoi (same functions). The earliest extant ordination rituals are in the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus, customarily dated 215 AD although more recent scholarship suggests they are a redaction dating from perhaps as early as 150 to as late as 350 AD. (A redaction in this context is a collection of materials, likely with different authors representing various communities, comprised over many years.) The ordination for bishop includes only a threadbare reference to priestly/sacersotal function whereas the ordination for presbyter includes no such reference!
"[F]acts, as history teaches, carry more weight than pure doctrine" (Joseph Ratzinger, THEOLOGICAL HIGHLIGHTS OF VATICAN II, Paulist Press/Deus Books, 1966, p. 16; reprinted 2010).
oseph said: "The simple truth
oseph said: "The simple truth is that the "ordination" of women to the priesthood is absolutely INVALID."
Did God say this to you directly, or did you overhear God speaking to someone else?
Rules, rules, rules. When will you read the message of Jesus Christ in the Gospels? He broke and discarded many rules of the "orthodox" religion of his day showing his followers what was truly important, NAMELY, WHAT JESUS SAID AND WHAT HE DID. Now you promote the observance of "orthodox" rules? Get with the program, Joseph! Man (Woman) does not live by RULES ALONE but by the creative inspiration of the Holy Spirit!
The Vatican hierarchy thinks that they own the church.
They ignored the sign: "CHURCH = PROPERTY OF HOLY SPIRIT!"
Yes, Jordan of Saxony, and
Yes, Jordan of Saxony, and the old bugger protectors in violet are trespassing on that "property" too. They're convinced they and they alone have a deed to that property and that everyone else must fall into line behind their leadership. That era is over!!!
Well, the Holy Spirit with
Well, the Holy Spirit with infinite care for us who are sinners and imperfect in all things could have us see things differently as a Church, remembering always that God's ways are not altogether known due to the imcompleteness of man.
It's only invalid because a
It's only invalid because a bunch of men said it was. Or are you claiming some kind of cosmic natural law about this issue?
The Church is infallible,
The Church is infallible, protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error, and the Church has taught infallibly that ordination is reserved to men alone.
"The church is infallible..."
"The church is infallible..." who is the Church to you? Because as I understand it, WE are the church, but the Church hierarchy has not proclaimed the entire Church infallible, only the pope. If the whole Church were infallible, we'd have women priests, married priests, etc. by now.
Nancyn, The whole body of
Nancyn, The whole body of apostles received the Holy Spirit, not just Peter. The rest of us received it through baptism and confirmation. WE ARE the Church no matter how uncomfortable or inconvenient that may be for the bishop of Rome.
When all are in accord, the Holy Spirit will have communicated the Divine Will.
Actually, the Church is
Actually, the Church is infallible. The pope's infallibility is granted to him/her as a member of the Church. The bishops of the Church granted the pople infallibility, not the Pope. There are two types of infallibility: Papal (as granted by the Church) and the Church's infallibility. Therefore, as a non ordained female member of the Church, the gift of infallibility may be given to me. So, we (those in support of women's ordination) need to speak and trust that we may be speaking infallibly.
Why don't you just become a
Why don't you just become a Protestant? In fact, all the commentators here, who seem to hate the Pope so much and think the Bishops are all wrong, why don't you all just become Protestants? It will solve all your problems. I did that when I was 15 and I was happy. For many years. And I would have never become a Catholic again, had I not realized in the last few years that the Church was right after all. By the way, I am a scientist and a scholar.
Hate to disappoint you, but
Hate to disappoint you, but the theologians from all camps still can't agree on just how "infallible" John Paul II and Benedict 16 proclamation could possibly be. Holy Church always builds escape hatches for it's "infallible" pronouncements.
"The Church is infallible,
"The Church is infallible, protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error, and the Church has taught infallibly that ordination is reserved to men alone".
Repeating pious mantras and declarations originating from the papal throne do not make them true.
So the Sun still revolves
So the Sun still revolves around the Earth?
Your posts always leaves me
Your posts always leaves me with the feeling that you are too confident that you know the truth. This post is no exception.
Dear Brother Joseph: Quoting
Dear Brother Joseph:
Quoting out of context is certainly a research flaw that can result in erroneous conclusions. Selective exclusion of generally accepted historical facts can do the same. The research basis upon which your " invalid" label is determined is flawed. This could be due to error or may appear to some to be intentional in an effort to preserve a power base. To which theory do you ascribe?
Brother Joseph, please
Brother Joseph, please familiarize yourself with the wide body of theological opinion on this subject. Much of it doesn't agree with you.
The pope, like the Wizard of Oz can create colored lights, produce clouds of smoke, and generate sound and action, but when you pull back the black curtain, it's still an old man playing tricks producing a phantasm. In the end it is a sham designed to scare the faithful Munchkins and to keep control over them.
The truth is vested in the Universal Mystical Body of the Church and the pope is one of many who can tap into it, but he is not the sole source for communicating that truth.
The ordination of women as a disciplinary practice of the Roman Church is one thing and will not be reversed in our lifetime, but the jury is still out and will be centuries from now.
Well, I believe I read
Well, I believe I read somewhere that the powers in Rome said the ordinations are valid (because of the laying on of hands of bishops), but illicit - what ever that means.
I mean for heaven's sakes,
I mean for heaven's sakes, the women,s ordination heretical movement has already splintered into two groups? They don't qualify as a schism since they don't have valid orders, so they are just a hertical group like the rest of the Protestants. And their splitting at such an early time in their movement is very telling & typical of Protestant denominations.
They don't have valid orders for the simple reason that they don't have the proper matter or form of a sacrament. A woman could no more be ordained a priest than an oreo cookie could be consecrated as the Eucharist. These women are nothing but a disgrace as my Irish Catholic granny would have said!
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