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Visitors in the past
Vatican oversight is new in church history
Jul. 06, 2009
St. Clare of Assisi, who lived inh the 13th century, is depicted in a stained-glass window inside the Church of San Damiano near Assisi, Italy. (CNS/Georgia Bulletin/Michael Alexander)
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PDF versionEditor’s note: The Vatican last January announced it had begun an apostolic visitation, or comprehensive study of U.S. women religious. The decree indicated the visitation was being undertaken to examine the quality of life of women religious. In February came news of a second Vatican women’s religious study, this of its umbrella leadership group, the Leadership of Conference of Women Religious. The studies have brought praise and have touched off considerable anxiety within the ranks of women religious.
The present Vatican investigations of U.S. communities of religious women would have astounded religious women of earlier centuries. For at least 1,200 years of Christian history, religious women would not have looked to the Vatican for oversight of their life. That prerogative belonged either to the abbess of a religious community or perhaps to the local bishop. Furthermore, bishops and religious were considered self-governing within their own communities or dioceses. Rome may have been recognized as the sole patriarch of the Western church but this did not imply that other bishops would welcome or even tolerate Rome’s interference in their affairs.
Early abbesses were powerful and acted independently not only of the papacy, but also of the local bishop. In fact, the most impressive example is the powerful Cistercian abbess of Las Huelgas near Burgos in Spain who wore her miter and carried her crosier until she was finally forbidden to do so in 1873. The abbess had the power to appoint parish priests for the countryside subject to the convent of Las Huelgas, some 64 villages. No bishop or delegate from the Holy See could perform a visitation of the churches or altars or curates or clerics or benefices under the care of the abbess. The abbess of Las Huelgas was even able to convene synods in her diocese and to make synodal constitutions and laws for both her religious and lay subjects.
The abbesses of Las Huelgas were not alone in claiming independence from local or even patriarchal oversight. In 428, the newly appointed Nestorius, patriarch of Constantinople, refused to administer the sacraments when he found the virgin Pulcheria seated among the clergy around the altar. This had been the custom under the previous patriarch and harsh words were exchanged between the virgin and the patriarch. Pulcheria, however, was not only a consecrated virgin, but also de facto empress. Nestorius soon found himself in exile.
Only in the 13th century did the popes assert the right of visitation of religious orders. Chapter 12 of the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 ordered that "religious and prudent persons should be appointed who, in our name, shall visit every abbey in the province, not only of monks but also of nuns." The canon assumes, however, that the visitor will either be the local bishop or a neighboring abbot or abbess.
This law was repeated by the Council of Vienne (1311-13) and the Council of Trent (1543-63). This did not mean that women always followed papal directives. Clare of Assisi rejected again and again rules imposed upon her order by the pope. Clare insisted that the nuns be allowed to visit the Franciscan brothers and to live the strict life of poverty embraced by her and Francis. She finally prevailed when Pope Innocent IV confirmed her rule just two days before Clare’s death in 1253.
Only with the promulgation of a new Code of Canon Law in 1917 is there an insistence on the pope’s more direct oversight of religious orders. According to the commentary on the code by Benedictine Fr. Charles Augustine, "All religious are subject to the Roman pontiff as their highest superior and must obey him also by virtue of the vow of obedience ... And this obedience must be offered to any and every legally elected pope no matter what his personal qualities might be." However, even Augustine adds, "In virtue of the vow of obedience, religious are bound to obey the pope only as far as their rule and constitutions demand, and no farther." As in the past, the code envisioned the bishop or religious superior as the ordinary visitor, but notes that "there may be extraordinary visitors and visitations for certain causes ... Hence surprise visitations are possible." Here the direct oversight of the papacy of each and every religious order is made clear for the first time in Christian history.
The 1983 Code of Canon Law, while certainly not denying papal oversight, assumes that the ordinary visitor of a religious order is the superior of the institute in question. A diocesan bishop has a limited responsibility in this regard and no mention is made of papal oversight. Interestingly, the commentary on the new code by Rosemary Smith notes that "one limitation on such legitimate questioning [by a visitor] would be prohibition of superiors from inducing from any member a manifestation of conscience." According to Smith, "Such a manifestation of conscience includes disclosure of all matters of the interior life, both graced and sinful." The distinction is important since it preserves freedom of conscience in the visitation process.
The direct supervision of the papacy of religious orders, then, first obliquely claimed in the 13th century, in fact seems a product of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Before that time, women religious not only disagreed with the papacy, but also prevailed in those disagreements. Independence and respectful disagreement would appear to be the more ancient tradition of religious women in Christian history.
Gary Macy is professor of theology at Santa Clara University in Santa Clara, Calif.
Mr. Macy is a bit spotty on
Mr. Macy is a bit spotty on his research and the scope of the visitation.
This Visitation is not about a direct intervention into the way they live their life, but to merely investigate whether certain beliefs, ministries, and actions are compatible with Christian/Catholic teaching, and the Evangelical Counsels!!
It all depends on what the
It all depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is, huh?
it's Dr. Macy
it's Dr. Macy
Br. Damukaitis, If you truly
Br. Damukaitis, If you truly understood the Vowed Life you would know that the way women religious live their lives is all about the evangelical counsels. They are the guiding force of religious living.
Dear Anonymous: Having lived
Dear Anonymous:
Having lived religious life for several years, you would understand that the Evangelical Counsels, like Scripture and everything else is given by Christ, THROUGH THE CHURCH!!!! This means that the Church herself, through Christ's vicars, the bishops in union with the Bishop of Rome, has the right and obligation to interpret what living these evangelical counsels mean. Now, the funny thing is, the real questions of the investigation have more to do with whether these women religous are even Catholic or Christian...given what they have written. If they profess neither the fullness of BOTH tenets, then the Evangelical Counsels they profess are inherently wrongly understood and lived to begin with!
I'm always leary of those who post "anonymous". They seem to lack the conviction of their statements!!!
This article is indeed an eye
This article is indeed an eye opener. It is hard to believe that in the past women were treated as if they had the brains to run things. We keep getting reminded that we are so lucky for the scraps of respect we get today. So, as we thought, the heierarchy is going backwards.
Or it may mean that in the
Or it may mean that in the past women didn't count enough to be bothered with.
...but not going "backwards"
...but not going "backwards" to the earlier and much longer tradition in the Church...
The simple words for this
The simple words for this visitation are "power" and "control"...
or, alternatively..."control"
or, alternatively..."control" and "power"...
NCR writers write as if they
NCR writers write as if they are the new magesterium!
Dear Mara, who constitutes
Dear Mara, who constitutes the "old magisterium." Who is in the magisterium and who is out? I guarantee, you will find no answer in canon law or anywhere else. Jesus had perhaps the best answer -- those who do his will and follow his teachings, which may or may not include the bureaucrats in Rome.
Hardly. The writers
Hardly. The writers thoughtfully point out that, once upon a time, women had some marginal nod of respect from the church.
It is this eras Pharisees and Sadducees (magestrium and "orthodox" catholics) that feel the need to rewrite the past to suit their own narrow view of Catholicism.
Hardly. The writers
Hardly. The writers thoughtfully point out that, once upon a time, women had some marginal nod of respect from the church.
It is this eras Pharisees and Sadducees (magestrium and "orthodox" catholics) that feel the need to rewrite the past to suit their own narrow view of Catholicism.
I don't think so Mara, the
I don't think so Mara, the real problem is a magisterium out of control that believe they have a roll in expanded infallibility even in issues that they can not be correct. The Bishops who make up this group suffer from megalomania at a time that there is way too much information for a group trained mostly in catechesis to comprehend.
Peace,
R. Dennis Porch, MD
"Expanded infallibility" is
"Expanded infallibility" is exactly right. More than one Vatican official -- and a nuncio to the US I heard in person -- has stated that Vatican officials share in the teaching authority of the Pope and even in his infallibility even on matters that have never been dogmatically decreed. The bishops, on the other hand, are increasingly seen, not as independent successors of the Apostles with their own access to the Holy Spirit, but as local bureaucratic functionaries of an incresingly centralized world church who are expected to hew to the party line set by Rome. It has gotten to the point that even archbishops (three recently) have been summarily deposed by Rome for not following the party line even in nondoctrinal matters. This is the legacy of the authoritarian JPII and the successsor elected to continue his policies. Legalistic authoritarianism stifles the Spirit. It will not last. The Spirit, who blows how and where he wills, and through whomever is open to Him, will not allow it. You cannot stifle God.
Mara, someone has to speak
Mara, someone has to speak out and challange. That is the way growth happens. The Holy Spirit is a gift all of the baptized receive. This is also why God made us in his image. Free will and intellect and God expects us to use these gifts.
Religious life, according to
Religious life, according to Vatican II, is a "prophetic charism" in the church. It is not meant to be inserted into the hierarchical "flow chart." Requirement of respect for the magisterium is the same as for any baptized member of the church.
Independence and respectful
Independence and respectful dialogue do indeed manifest the more ancient tradition of religious women in Christian history.
We note it in the New Testament, the Canaanite woman disagrees with Jesus, and succeeds in her courageous and faithful arguments, asking Jesus to heal her gentile child. Jesus at first turns her down, then listens to what she says and then changes his policy of "minstry to only Israel children" to extending his ministry to all.
Indeed an ancient tradition is this history in the Christian, Catholic tradition of womanly independence and womanly respectful disagreement in our church.
The more the Vatican is
The more the Vatican is allowed to interfer in the internal organisations of female orders, the more restrictive their "caling' will become! It is one of control, not one of dialogue!
Peter Lynch
Melbourne
Australia.
We should not, necessarily,
We should not, necessarily, accept that the past Councils issued valid Canon laws. For example, the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 was called by Innocent III who issued lots of decrees. Reportedly, there was little, if any, discussion by anyone present... and, of course, no women were allowed. There was also concern by Innocent III about the fact that the Crusades were unsuccessful.
If one were to accept the decrees of Innocent III, perhaps we embrace the 'goodness' of the Crusades as well. Trash!
Some in the Vatican want
Some in the Vatican want power and control over women. Some espouse diminished status for women. Some men in places of power in my church do not want women to be equal, have input, and responsibility. Obedience? What happened to free will? What happened to living to one's inspired conscience?
Some of the men at the top have not done such a good job in far too many instances. The Vatican needs to let go of the daily workings of its religious and lay members and work on the big picture. Perhaps they fear that women will make better leaders if women were part of the magesterium!
Considering how the Roman
Considering how the Roman Catholic Bishops of the United States have fouled up in all areas, not just the Clergy Sexual Abuse Scandal; I would say that the "Male" sections of our Church need more investigating than the Female Orders of Women Religious. On the contrary, Vatican II left many Women Religious twisting in the wind and wondering about their own futures.
And the idea of Bishops not standing, "Rome's Interference Into Their Affairs"? Utter Foolishness. These Bishops, are men under authority and do as they are told. To say that they would even consider disconnecting themselves from the Authority of the Vatican City State and from their Allegiance to the Holy Father is Nonsense.
Let's face it, Rome is concerned about the fact that so many Roman Catholic Women Religious have publicly supported the Victims of Clergy Sexual Violation; and now the Church intends to bring these Good Women to Heel. I Sincerely HOPE That Our United States Women Religious Follow The Example of The Sisters of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, By Standing Up For Their Rights AS The Anointed Brides of Christ And As Children Of GOD.
Bravos to Beth & Victoria!
Bravos to Beth & Victoria! I've met so many of these good women, and they have worked very hard...continuing to do the work they are called to do. I'm just now reading the autobiography of Dorothy Day. I cannot imagine any man bringing her to heel. ;o)
This is indeed about control. Words are a dime a dozen...let all of our actions speak for us.
And Mara writes words to
And Mara writes words to prove she doesn't really understand what the term 'magisterium' means, let alone how to spell it!
Millicent, can you spell
Millicent, can you spell misogyny....because this visitation is all about sinful misogynists who must put down women.
Thanks for this great
Thanks for this great historical article that reveals that women of the church were once allowed to be "independent" and to have "respectful disagreement."
Jesus promoted for women "independence" and "respectful disagreement." In the New Testament Jesus responds to the request of the Cananite woman who pleads for the healing of her gentile child.
She argues with Jesus, is "independently" asking for help. and has "respectful disagreement" with Jesus. Jesus changes what he does, he no longer just ministers to children of Israel..Because of her "independenc " and her "respectful disagreement" with him, Jesus begins to include all the world, the gentiles in his ministry.
The nuns are traditional and very good when they show the same independence and respectful disagreement. Jesus would approve. So the New Testament shows us the truth. Thanks for this great article from Gary Macy.
The real reason for this
The real reason for this visitation is FEAR on the part of the Vatican-fear that women religious are becoming too powerful in the Church. Over the last century,these women have become very educated and have ably run large institutions. In more recent years, women like Sister Joan Chittister have become the spokespersons for mnay of us in the pews--women who are also very educated and are no longer satisfied to hold those roles that clerics mapped out for us-mainly changing diapers and baking browinies.
When the visitors hit the Amewrican shores, let's show them our pantries, our soup kitchens, our clinics,our GED programs, our homes for the poor and indigent. I hope that American sisters will stand up with great pride and point out those many hidden apostolates where the face of Jesus appears anew each day!
I am thankful for theologian,
I am thankful for theologian, historian, and scholar, Dr.Gary Macy who counteracts the pernicious male hierarchy who has tried to erase the history of women leaders in church history and silence the voices of American nuns.
The nuns are silencing
The nuns are silencing themselves by their diminished number of vocations.
Some years ago as an aspirant
Some years ago as an aspirant to a certain religious community, charges were leveled by some unscrupulous persons that our founder was secretly married, no doubt one of the greatest sins of which a cleric is capable. Of course, what we understood to be a Vatican inquest was convened to look into the matter, and all of us were questioned. My inquisitor made it very clear to me that if I had any knowledge or information about this matter, that I must reveal it to him -- under pain of great sin. When I reminded said miscreant of the secrecy of the confessional, he assured me that "that does not apply in this case." A warning to those under investigation: Rome is not above lies and innuendo and any assortment of dirty tricks.
Well done again NCR. "if it
Well done again NCR. "if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck".
Neil
I'm finding it difficult to
I'm finding it difficult to believe that these 'visitations' are, in fact, as they are being advertised by the hierarchy of the Church. The bishops of the Church have a serious credibility problem that was made worse by the 2002 revelations of scandal, and the subsequent episcopal circling of their wagons to protect themselves. Since that time, everyone EXCEPT the chief shepherds has been subjected to "investigation". Some dioceses have all but become police states. Even laity (including those who do NOT work with children) are being background checked and otherwise intrusively scrutinized, whether employed, or volunteering as a matter of their stewardship obligation. All of these investigations are ostensibly to 'protect children' — but that doesn't hold believability because these same bishops voted to exclude themselves from such intrusive investigation (a matter of record).
.
The current investigations of women religious has the flavor of a witch-hunt, designed to intimidate the very individuals who vocally hold these bishops accountable. Given the growing rancor and divisions being promoted by a hand-full of the hierarchy, with no pretense of a Christ-like charity, it becomes clear that this is more about politics than spirituality. When a minority of bishops and their lay followers are telling anyone who doesn't agree with them to "leave the Church and go elsewhere", it becomes clear that an unholy agenda is in play.
.
Part of the good that came from the Second Vatican Council was the clear acknowledgment of individual conscience, and the importance of not negating that conscience to follow the herd. It is disingenuous to proclaim another's conscience to be lacking in correct formation merely because they might disagree on the application of faith. We are no longer an illiterate people who are unable to read and comprehend Scripture and the Catechism without total clerical intervention. There is both spiritual and temporal danger in blindly submitting to the dictates of another based solely upon the office that person holds. History proves this to be true. Conversely, the Church has a long tradition of laity, which includes religious communities, bringing correction of course to the Church when the ordained hierarchy had failed.
.
The laity which includes vowed religious, ARE the Church. To treat them as criminals in need of "investigating" with its implied suspicion of heresy or worse, says more about the caliber of the shepherds than the quality of the sheep.
Aileen, your carefully
Aileen, your carefully reasoned response is gratifying, as is the controlled and deep rage I encountered as substrata. Thank you for both; they keep me sane while perusing some of the other shallow emotive comments.
Two sections which I very favorably appreciated appeared in the second and last paragraphs. The second paragraph begins by remarking on a witch-hunt flavor "designed to intimidate". It then moves to emphasize that the investigation promoted by a North American U.S.A. episcopal minority with no pretense of Christlike charity is more about system ("political" is your choice) than about spirituality. This extraordinarily lucid paragraph concludes very logically: "...it becomes clear that an unholy agenda is at play."
You end the comment by reiterating the theme that this investigation says "more about the caliber of the shepherds than the quality of the sheep." Because I couldn't shout an affirmation I needed to use this vehicle to give an enthusiastic second to your brave thoughts and to thank you from down deep for giving them life and voice.
I sense that you are the author of a recent book and an astrophysicist. If I'm correct, than I take this opportunity to say thank you for that book as well. Like you (again if I'm correct), I've found a CSJ home, but my journey took a different route than yours.
There was a day when I was
There was a day when I was proud to be a Catholic - now I am just sickened by the totalitarian, repressive, homophobic, and sexist policies of the magesterium. Why the visitations - because women religious have been educated, have spoken their mind, have stood with the poor and powerless - and this scares the heck out of Rome. There was a time that I believed that the Pope was Christ's representative on earth - very sadly, those days are over.
While it may be true that
While it may be true that "The present Vatican investigations of U.S. communities of religious women would have astounded religious women of earlier centuries", so too would have championing sexual depravity, espousing women's "right" to abortion, endorsing female ordination, practicing wicca/Buddhism/new-age philosophy/divination and preaching open disobedience to Catholic dogma; all unfortanately present in some "religious" communities throughout the US. It is easy for some who share this agenda of dissent to whine and point their finger at the big bad Vatican for interfering or intruding, since actually being honest about WHY and WHAT brought about this investigation requires a level of obedience and humility to church teaching which modernist nominal Catholic simply do not possess.
I’m not quite sure which
I’m not quite sure which religious communities you are citing. I know of none that are “championing sexual depravity.” In fact, most religious communities are fearlessly holding bishops accountable for their complicity in the most grievous sexual depravity of pedophilia followed by a cover-up and ensuing scandal. Religious communities that I know are furious that a “Cardinal” Law is ushered into the bosom of Rome with his own “parish,” servants, and cushy life style while his victims continue to suffer. That, you see, is Rome’s sexual depravity – to treat with a huge reward the one who, more than most, is responsible for the sex abuse of minor children at the hands of Catholic priests.
Many women today have, like me, had to counsel girl children as young as ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, and fourteen who were pregnant as a result of rape or incest aggression. For the sake of these children, I support keeping abortion legal, safe, and rare. Can you not imagine the physical and psychological harm that results from a tiny undeveloped body and fragile mind being preyed upon by a grown monster of a father or stranger or a priest? Can you not imagine the psychological state of a girl child carrying a fetus at once her sibling and her offspring? Can you not imagine the need for therapeutic abortion in these instances? Perhaps you have never ministered to these children.
Women were among Christ’s closest friends and, in the early church, ministered – as the New Testament tells us – just as did Peter, Paul, and the other apostles. Why should women be banned from priestly ministry today? Most intelligent women in the church see Rome’s stance and attitude toward the ordination of women not as a theological issue, but as a power-play of the hierarchy.
Our brothers and sisters of the Buddhist faith have shared with us the power and beauty of ancient forms of meditation. These forms can be adapted and used to teach us about growing closer to the Holy and learning to value the sacred that is within each of us. I know of religious communities that employ some of the finer elements of meditation to increase our ability to encounter the Living God in our daily lives. This is not the same as being a Buddhist community.
I know of individual religious women who advocate the formation of a questioning conscience that just might in some instances disagree with the hierarchy. That is healthy! That is how change occurs! That is why Good Pope John XXIII saw the need for a Second Vatican Council – the unquestioned faith is not worth believing.
As for the other generalizations, I find them grossly exaggerated criticisms indicating to me that you truly have not met, spoken with, or interacted with American women religious. Perhaps you see through a prism of fundamentalism – how unfortunate! You are missing the beauty, relevance, and Christ-like devotion of today’s American women religious. They are far more closely aligned to the mission and ministry of Christ than their “hierarchical” counterparts.
Qualis Rex, No body in their
Qualis Rex,
No body in their right mind would put up with an investigation by a bunch of villians (from Rome) who have lost all credibility with their attempts to deprive Catholics of what God has never taken from us. Our free choice! Our dignity!
Our papacy, curia, our bishops---belong to an outdated system that creates its own laws, declares them to be unfallible, and then levels punishment on those who don't follow the laws to the "T".
It amazes me, Qualis Rex, that you are not stating that the MEN in the Vatican should be obedient and humble. Are these only virtues for women?
Yet, it was Jesus who told his Apostles, when he washed their feet, that if they wished to be first---they should serve others. There was nothing about living in mansions, wearing lace and fancy jewelry---and lording their authority over others in Christ's statement.
If the hierarchy wants respect from Catholics (religious and laity), let them EARN it. Demanding anything will get them spit!
No one needs papal oversight
No one needs papal oversight now or ever.
May I suggest a course in
May I suggest a course in Church history, William?
This article offers some very
This article offers some very good historical perspective; we also need recent perspective. Part of what is going on in the US regarding religious life seems to be a split similar to that which the nation has experienced between the "left" and the "right" in politics this last decade. New orders (some founded since the 1990s by American bishops) have returned to the veil and long habits. Their young aspirants refer to themselves as the "John Paul II generation" or "new feminists." (One order has as part of its mission to reverence priesthood -- I must admit I would love to found a male order called to reverence nuns and womanhood, but I think I would not get the proper funding.) These new orders live a more monastic life than that of many sisters in what were the traditional apostolic ordes who since Vatican II have sought involvement with the faithful at many levels beyond the walls of shools and hospitals: -- soup kitchens, urban gang ministry, Native reservations, college campuses etc. These nuns have modified their garb, chipped away at the monastic barriers that kept my generation from ever calling or knocking on a convent door after 6 PM. (One new order in NYC shuts off its phones at 4:30 PM and eschews TV in favor of communal recreation, which may aid peaceful contemplation but can restrict infomred and empathetic prayer and even service to some degree.
What puzzles me is the Vatican's choosing of one of the orders who do not belong to the general LCWR to oversee the visitation. It seems potentially devisive --I wish Mother Clare's order had politiely declined the Vatican appointed role of oversight over her sister orders. Did she have a choice? Perhaps not.
I revere the nuns who taught ne and their courageous work over the last three decades to renew their foudning spirit. Yes, the Church has a vested interest in the preservation of the Evangelical Cousnels -- but so do the the sisters themsleve desire that and have the tools in place to discern/monitor their faithfulness to authentic gospel living. The Vatican could have invited them more widely to share this task.
PR
Saint Teresa of Avila, the
Saint Teresa of Avila, the fiercely independent (and who suffered for it) and who became a Doctor of our Church despite her episcopal persecutions, certainly rolls in her grave at this present usurpation of powers in the interest of persecuting our good and holy women, though perhaps she rolls about in holy laughter . . .
Once the convent was the only path to independence for women. Now the patriarchy demands its unwarranted due . . .
Know your history!
just wondering
your poorest servant
frère charles du désert OSB OBLAT (Congrégation de Subiaco)
to quote yourself, have you
to quote yourself, have you been visiting her grave to see if she has turned?
dear anonymous unless you
dear anonymous
unless you quote me myself, forgive me if I cannot find how you draw that inference
Of course the church knows
Of course the church knows these things....most of what the magesterium does is to prevent any type of female empowerment from ever happening again.
The organization of the church is a very sick and dysfunctional system. This "investigation" of the american nuns appears to be a tactic often utilized in dysfunctional families. Rather than address the problem (a priesthood in distress, men joining to seek power, molester, etc.) the sick system chooses to divert attention (lets go after the american sisters).
But as always, the women who belong to these religious communities will continue to follow in the footsteps of Jesus and do the works of Jesus and pray as Jesus did.
Wow, so do the nuns want to
Wow, so do the nuns want to go back to the way things were??
What if women congregations
What if women congregations were to strike? Who would do all the parish work, run universities and hospitals, minister to the poor, the ill, operate missions around the world. Who will minister to all the faithful who have little or no contact with priests. Who will live cloistered lives praying for all of us?
Of course those with the power and the arrogance to conduct this investigation have no such worry. These faithful women will not abandon us.
God loves them and so do we.
It is amazing how "the
It is amazing how "the Church" uses history and historical practices and tradition when it suits the heirarchy, but is able to ignore the same when it comes to changes the heirarchy does not see as beneficial to the continuation of male dominance. I am continually amazed that the first "pope" Peter, was married, and who knows how many of the apostles were married, yet celibacy is a requirement to be a priest, not a choice. And women leaders of the very early church were common, but somehow their presence at the altar is still denied by Rome. Even more amazing is the fact that Rabbis (and what could be more of a male dominated history than the Jews) are today both male and female. Tch, tch, tch. Come-on Rome, get with the program, and the Bible.
Isn’t this a case of “the pot
Isn’t this a case of “the pot calling the kettle black,” or “politics as usual?” How better to get the spotlight off the pedophile enabling bishops than having a “lily white, safe” bishop investigate female religious, who are struggling with the human condition in their own vocations
Oh, and Dostoevsky’s Grand Inquisitor, reincarnated as Cardinal William Joseph Levada, has the hypocritical audacity to speak of “a doctrinal assessment of the quality of life” of someone other than himself!. This is most reminiscent of Ophilia’s retort to her brother Laertes after his preachy sermon to her on how she should conduct herself:
“Do not, as some ungracious pastors do,
Show me the steep and thorny way to heaven,
Whiles, like a puffed and reckless libertine,
Himself the primrose path of dalliance treads
And recks not his own rede.”
Getting back to my metaphor of pot and kettle, take a close gander at this website
http://www.leepenn.org/LP-LevadaTrajectory-Details.html
to view the wicked conduct of Cardinal William Joseph Levada. Find out why he covered for his best and closest friend, Msgr. Gregory Ingels, prominent canon lawyer and more prominent pedophile. It was Msgr. Ingels, by the way who prominently drafted the Bishops Policy on clergy sex abuse and wound up getting “hoisted on his own petard.” Oh, the irony of it all!”
After being served a subpoena and forced to testify, testily, Levada got a reprieve from Dr. Ratzinger, who, graciously like the Greek “deus ex machina,” swooped down and carried him off to Rome and security.
J. Basil Damukaitis
J. Basil Damukaitis writes:
"Mr. Macy is a bit spotty on his research and the scope of the visitation.
This Visitation is not about a direct intervention into the way they live their life, but to merely investigate whether certain beliefs, ministries, and actions are compatible with Christian/Catholic teaching, and the Evangelical Counsels!!"
If that is not a direct intervention into the way they (women religious) live their lives---I don't know what else is! Who determines what it means to be Christian/Catholic? And are those who determine what makes a Catholic/Christian, doing so as mere juridical concepts instead of as spiritual realizations?
Little Bear your comment
Little Bear your comment makes no sense! If Christ founded His Church on Peter it would logically follow that the successor to Peter is entitled to look into all things in the Church of Christ. You need to study Church History!
Milbo, I think it is you that
Milbo, I think it is you that study history with a little less rightegousness!
Dear Milbo 1, Your comment
Dear Milbo 1,
Your comment makes no sense! The institutional Church that we now have---did not exist when Jesus called Peter to be the first among equals and to be the leader of the followers of Christ. And the institutional church that we have today---was not what Christ was planning when he selected Peter as leader!
I teach Church History! You need to study up on it---and stop swallowing all the malarky that you hear. The Church that our current hierarchy loves the most is not the early Church---with the persecution of Christians and the martyrdom of great Church leaders (read popes), like Clement, Polycarp and
Ignatius of Antioch. And even the Church of the Middle Ages (when everyone spoke Latin), may not be their favorite time period. But the Church of the Renaissance period---when Popes were emperors, Cardinals were kings, and Arch/bishops were lords. That is the golden age for the Church.
This investigation is just another attempt of the hierarchy to try to rein in anyone who questions what the hierarchy does. The official church is trying to re-impose the old "pay, pray and obey" mandates upon the nuns that the laity---also suffered under for centuries.
The hierarchy forgets one thing, though. The American Religious women are among the most highly educated women in America. Religious women have been dealing with hierarchs for centuries and in this country, for two centuries. Women have the public media (an invention that the official church detests) as a help in getting out the message about the abuse, lies, deception, injustice, of the power-crazed hierarchy. And the laity are beginning to wake up, too! In a few years, the official church will see what this group (considered by a number of priests, bishops, cardinals to be 'stupid') will do to demand change in this church of ours.
Tradition is valued so highly
Tradition is valued so highly by some -- until the older tradition and practice is presented.
While what this article say
While what this article say may be true, it left out one important fact: back in the days when religious houses, orders, and/or monasteries/abbeys had more independent from Rome, the social economic system was based on a feudal system. Properties, including Church properties, were controlled by local lords.
So if we want to bring up the pass and see it as something positive: let's also bring back a few other components of that time period as well: dowry; women as property of their fathers; etc...
Dear Anonymous of Jul.
Dear Anonymous of Jul. 07,
Because people were sick and tired of the feudal concept of monarchies---they participated in Revolutions. In the United States, we had one, too. We established a democracy---and many of the religious orders of women came to the United States AFTER the American Revolution.
The women religious in America are Americans---not Europeans of the feudal era. If the American religious women are going to be punished for speaking out against the injustices that they have seen coming from the "official church", (sexual abuse of children and youth, discimination against women, injustice levied against church workers [called 'ministers' when the bishops don't want to pay them decent wages---but treated like slaves when work is needed to be done], poor people in the inner cities seeing their churches closed and they having no recourse)---then---the official church should be prepared to experience another revolution within the Church---this time led by the laity.
We are, indeed, no longer living in the feudal past. Only the "official church" is still operating as a feudal system with: secrecy, denial, and a no-hold-barred effort to protect the reputation, authority, and resources of the institution. Their responses to criticism are reprehensible---but consistent with the way feudal systems function.
The American Sisters have beaten out the path for others. Now it is time for the laity in the pews to bring about accountability and transparency within the Church. The laity must find their voice and dare to speak to church authorities, too long accustomed to deferential obedience and compliance.
The exercise of authority, that the official Church is trying to force on the American Sisters, is not an authority based upon servant leadership, but tyranny. And as Americans---we know what to do with tyrants.
When will there be a months
When will there be a months long visitation by the powerful Vatican Congregations towards the US, Irish, Aftrican etc, bishops who for decades tolerated & covered up the criminal abuse of minors by their adult colleagues???
Quickie "ad limina" visits don't count, since they haven't changed anything substantially in this crisis.
Doesn't it say in the Scriptures, that if innocent little ones are harmed, the perpetrators would have been bettor off never even having been born or thrown live into the ocean to drown???
It sounds as if Dr. Macy is
It sounds as if Dr. Macy is taking libertys with history.
When we interpret history through the eyes of the present, we skew history to mean what we want it to say, to prove our point.
These religious of the past were Catholic and conducted themselves for the most part as being Catholic, following in the steps of what the Church believes.
Some modern religious have stopped being Catholic in word and deed. They not only not follow the Church in it's teachings but openly defie the Church. This is heresy!
http://natcath.org/NCR_Online
http://natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2007d/121407/121407h.htm
Recall this ignored fact about which the Holy See is unlikely to convene a conference any time soon.
"[T]he Council of Chalcedon in the fifth century had declared any ordination of a priest or deacon illegal, as well as null and void, unless the person being ordained had been chosen by a particular community to be its leader.
Because the church has basically ignored that clear directive of the early church throughout the second millennium, Schillebeeckx recommended 'new possibilities' for reconnecting the Eucharist to its community roots, even if such actions contradict current church law."
Edward Schillebeeckx in NCR, December 14, 2007.
San Francisco Archbishop
San Francisco Archbishop William Levada's Hidden Record
The Details
Archbishop Levada Travels to Rome with Scandal Baggage
by Lee Penn
http://www.leepenn.org/LP-LevadaTrajectory-Details.html
Lets face it, ours is a
Lets face it, ours is a religion that lives in expectation of the return of our Lord Jesus-God come in the flesh. Should the time arrive that our Lord calls us home, we anticipate that like all flesh, we will be judged. Either Catholic or not, there will be a judgement and it will be marvellous in our eyes. Both the instantaneous "particular judgement" and the final judgement. We know that at the resurrection, those destined for eternal life will rise with their own bodies renewed bodily and also manifesting spiritualized properties exactly like the risen Lord Jesus when he appeared to the Apostles. As for those not destined for this blessed life who in fact will rise again with their own bodies, but not renewed, thus with horrific uglyness. If one thinks for a minute that they can flout the Church founded by Christ and the pastors designated without consequences they are wrong. IT IS PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT FOR ALL RELIGIOUS TO REMEMBER THAT THEY WILL BE JUDGED AND THAT THEY DO NOT GET A "GET OUT OF JUDGEMENT" JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE FATHER SUCH AND SUCH OR SISTER SUCH AND SUCH OR BROTHER SUCH AND SUCH. Please keep this in mind. As for the re-writers of Church History, it can be said with assurance that they bear a great responsibility before Jesus-God come in he flesh to exspend every effort to ensure accurate historical reporting... For Christ Jesus-God come in the flesh is truly Risen! Alleluia!
Dear Snowdrop, as usual your
Dear Snowdrop, as usual your comment reflects your private belief system, not the doctrine of the Church. There has never been a doctrine that Jesus will return "in the flesh," (same human DNA, etc.?), and Jesus is not God (the Creator) but God's co-essential human Son.
I strongly urge you to read
I strongly urge you to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Particularly Section 1038, the full catechism is available online at www.vatican.va . For those who would appreciate a credal statement, I suggest the Athanasian Creed which is one of the most widely used professions of faith, found in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, the Lutheran Statement of Belief, the Catholic Church etc.. and is the most widely used profession in Western Christianity which reads as follows:
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.
Peace and understanding in Christ Jesus-God come in the flesh...
I highly recommend you all
I highly recommend you all read,"WITNESS TO INTEGRITY- The Crisis of the Immaculate Heart Community" by Mother Anita M. Caspary IHM. This was the first "Test" by the Women Religious of Our Church to take Vatican II at it's word. The dignity with which these good women conducted themselves in the face of overwhelming odds (and threats) by the male clergy and hierarchy of the Church is awe inspiring.
Also I must mention the event when Mother Angelica of EWTN criticized Cardinal Roger Mahony on air; then was forced to go back on air and apologize to him. Imagine the Living Saint that is Mother Angelica, having to publicly apologize to a man like Mahony. Sickening.
So you are putting Angie
So you are putting Angie above a bishop?
very interesting theological implications for your politics and church-view in this
are you calling EWTN a more infallible dogmatic body than a bishop?
very interesting . . .
Is anyone forgetting the
Is anyone forgetting the history of Cardinal William Levada? Remember he went the way of Cardinal Bernard Law almost by the same route. Refresh your memory by reading the article already mentioned:
San Francisco Archbishop William Levada's Hidden Record
The Details
Archbishop Levada Travels to Rome with Scandal Baggage
by Lee Penn
http://www.leepenn.org/LP-LevadaTrajectory-Details.html
_______________________________________________________
As the editorial in the current newsletter of the Association for the Rights of Catholic in the Church, ARCC Light, questions:
IS "VISITATION" WITCH-HUNT BY ANOTHER NAME?
And the answer is a definite, YES!
One needs especially to read what anyone connected with this so called "Visitation" needs to sign onto especially the:
"OATH OF FIDELITY ON ASSUMING AN OFFICE TO BE EXERCISED IN THE NAME OF THE CHURCH."
Do not be surprised if the conclusiions and report on this "Visitation" have already been written.
IT HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE, YOU KNOW.
I highly recommend Gary
I highly recommend Gary Macy's -
THE HIDDEN HISTORY OF WOMEN'S ORDINATION: FEMALE CLERGY IN THE MEDIEVAL WEST (OXFORD, 2008)
- a review of which by Phyllis Zagano can be found in Theological Studies.
You know its is really
You know its is really frustrating sometimes when fair comments are purposely edited out because they make a point contrary to the webeditor's point of view...
then, dear snowdrop, make a
then, dear snowdrop, make a fair comment
Love God with all your Mind,
Love God with all your Mind, Heart and Soul.
Love your neighbour as yourself.
The sisters are on the right track by questioning, by thinking, by showing independence and respectful disagreement and dialogue.
Just like the prophets did and do, just like the saints do, just like the women of the New Testament do, nuns are very traditional and following Jesus and God by asking questions, offering solutions to church problems like the shortage of priests and asking for reforms, changes.
Silencing and repression are not the ways of Jesus and neither is unthinking blind obedience faithful to Jesus either.
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