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Vatican lip service to women in Women's History Month
Mar. 11, 2009
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Roy Bourgeois with Aisha S. Taylor and Erin Saiz Hanna
Printer-friendly versionSend to friendPDF versionIn an infuriating combination of events, the Vatican rang in Women’s History Month by once again paying lip service to women’s equality while showing its true colors. The day before Pope Benedict XVI called for increased commitment to women’s dignity, a Vatican official announced his support for the excommunications of the mother and doctors of a nine-year-old girl who had an abortion after being raped by her stepfather.
In Brazil, abortion is illegal except in cases of rape or when a woman’s life is in danger, and both stipulations were fulfilled in this heartbreaking case. The doctors determined that the girl, who weighed only eighty pounds, would not survive this pregnancy. The girl’s 23-year-old stepfather admitted to sexually abusing her for several years, and he is also suspected of abusing her physically disabled 14-year-old sister. He has since been arrested and placed in protective custody.
Last Saturday, Cardinal Giovanni Battista, prefect of the Congregation for Bishops and president of the Pontifical Commission for Latin America, defended the excommunications first announced by Archbishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, the girl’s local archbishop. The very next day, on March 8—International Women’s Day—Pope Benedict stated, “Today's date invites us to reflect on … our commitment that always and everywhere every woman can live and fully manifest her particular abilities, obtaining complete respect for her dignity."
How can this egregious hypocrisy even be possible?
Excommunicating this child’s mother and doctors, who, in good conscience, saved this girl’s life is the exact opposite of displaying “complete respect for her dignity.” It is inexcusable and appalling. The church had the opportunity to show pastoral care to a family torn apart by violence. Instead, they intensified the pain, trauma and injustice in what can only be called spiritual violence.
This is a prime example of the devastating impact that the hierarchy’s cultural influence often has on women. When it comes to women’s issues, this type of hypocrisy – on a less horrific scale – is the norm in the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church.
At a time when the pope endangered 40 years of Catholic-Jewish dialogue by lifting the excommunication of a bishop who is a Holocaust denier, and amid revelations that the founder of the Legion of Christ, Fr. Marcial Maciel Degollado, was not only a pedophile but also the father of at least one child, the Vatican decided to launch an “apostolic visitation” to investigate women’s religious communities in the US.
These recent developments are part of an all-too-familiar pattern. In the past year, women and men who publicly support increasing women’s roles in the church have been penalized and excommunicated, under the same automatic and self-imposed penalty that the mother and doctors in Brazil supposedly incurred.
Fr. Roy Bourgeois’ threat of excommunication is still pending for his participation in a woman’s ordination. Sr. Louise Lears, a Sister of Charity who has dedicated her life to serving the church, was penalized by Archbishop Raymond Burke of St. Louis for attending the ordination of two Roman Catholic women.
Last May, on the feast of Joan of Arc, the Vatican excommunicated over 60 Catholic women for prophetically obeying their calls to ordination and being ordained by bishops who claim apostolic succession. The hierarchy is using the Sacraments as a weapon, and it is not working.
We have heard many of these brave people tell their story, and it is clear that their communities embrace them, and their message is coming across loud and clear: they cannot work for justice in society without also working for justice within their church.
While ordained men obliterate their only remaining shred of moral credibility, the Catholic women who run soup kitchens, schools, hospitals, homeless shelters, and numerous social justice ministries face investigation or excommunication. It is contrary to the gospel itself to excommunicate people who are doing good works and responding to injustice and the needs of their communities. While the hierarchy prattles on about excommunication, Catholic women are working for justice and making a positive difference in the world.
While the problems of the hierarchy are complex and there are numerous issues that need to be addressed, it is hard to imagine that the current situation would be possible if women were included in the decision making structures of the church. Because women are banned from ordination to the priesthood, they are excluded from most church governance positions.
If Catholic women were fully included in the leadership of the church at all levels, we truly believe the hierarchy would not be able to shield sexual predators in its own ranks, while shaming and condemning the victims of sexual abuse on the other side of the pulpit.
At a time when there is a specific and intentional focus on promoting women’s equality, with the International Women’s Day just last weekend and the 53rd United Nations Commission on the Status of Women taking place in New York right now, it would have been a welcome change to see the Vatican demonstrate the increased commitment to the dignity of women for which it called.
Unfortunately, in the case of the young girl in Brazil, even remaining silent would have been more decent than the chosen response of the local bishop and senior Vatican cleric. Going further, the girl, her mother and Catholic women everywhere should be able to count on their spiritual leaders to provide pastoral care and to work toward ending violence against women and sexual abuse of children in their communities.
If the Vatican put its considerable resources behind its statements about women—and modeled equality within its own structures—perhaps then the hierarchy would actually be able to contribute to promoting dignity for women. Until this happens, their inability to understand the realities of women’s lives will continue to shine a bright light on the fact that the hierarchy is much more versed in hypocrisy.
Aisha S. Taylor is the Executive Director and Erin Saiz Hanna is the Assistant Director of the Women’s Ordination Conference (WOC). For more information, visit the: Women's Ordination Website
I commend Aisha Taylor and
I commend Aisha Taylor and Erin Saiz Hanna of Women's Ordination Conference for speaking out in support for justice and equality for women and girls.
How on earth can we be so
How on earth can we be so concerned about the lives of the unborn that we forget the suffering of the LIVING. Respecting life is respecting the living FIRST. How could we risk the life of a CHILD to save an unborn baby. The issue here is being confused by our obsession with Abortion. Everyone would agree that abortion is wrong. Even the most "pro choice" person would agree that abortion is wrong. But let's not attack those who seek out abortions. Let's counsel them and guide them to make the right decisions. Let's help them OUT of situations that bring them to have unwanted pregnancies. Targeting abortion will not fix the reasons for these unwanted pregnancies.
THANK YOU for the Women's Ordination Conference for raising awareness on this very sad story.
Peace and equality for all!
So here was a perfect case
So here was a perfect case where we had two wrongs making a right? The devloping bebies had a right to life..they had no part in this travesty...all doctors and moms etc who murder their developing babies should be ex-communicated from the RCC..why not..they wont be upset..they can join the US Demoncrat party and become heros..two wrongs never make a right and murder of the innocent is just that..wrong..how any Catholic can be a member of the Demoncrat party and still claim 'choice' is paramount is frankly kinder sad..
Wow...what a
Wow...what a commentary...I'll pray for you... you sure missed the boat on this one...did you happen to read the small detail that the girl in question was nine years old, fully unfit to carry a child, and had been raped by her step-father? I don't think political parties have anything to do with this at all.
So a nine year old rape
So a nine year old rape victim should die so that an unborn baby can live? There are no good choices here, Nino, but there is a choice that is less terrible: Sacrifice the unborn baby so that the mother, a child herself, can live. The blame for that death should be placed squarely on the shoulders of the rapist. Why doesn't this bishop threaten to excommunicate the girl's stepfather? He is the one who placed this baby and its mother in a position where one or both of them would have to die.
I find it ironic that church doctrine embraces the concept of a just war and acknowledges that killing is permitted in self-defense, but cannot make room for women and girls whose lives are threatened by pregnancy.
Sad, sad, sad that the church has nothing better to do than to excommunicate a woman and a doctor who made a hard choice to save a little girl's life. How easy it must be for this bishop to wash his hands and tell a rape victim and her mother to let nature take its course.
And what about the 9 year
And what about the 9 year old? Wasn't she innocent too? Was she some sort of temptress? Does she not matter at all? What do you expect from a church that protected child molestors for so long. They still protect them.
Women and children simply don't matter in this sick, male fraternity. I'm quite sure that there are acceptions to the rule but When it comes to Rome, I'm done.
Wow, so much to be said about
Wow, so much to be said about this issue. First, I would like remind you that unborn children are also "living." Second, as a rape survivor (I was about the age of the girl in Brazil), I would like to add that it is quite possible to recover from a rape, and since it is not the fault of the victim, there (should be) no guilt. But there is always plenty of guilt for the woman who has to live with her abortion. At some point in her life, the post-abortive woman has to face what she has done: killed her own baby in her womb. In the case of the nine year old child, she was raped twice, first by her step father, and then by her doctors. While she is not guilty, they are, and they need to be called to account. And some day that poor child will have to recognize and deal with what was done to her by all of them. Third, I wonder if you would accuse Jews of being "obsessed" with the Holocaust. We are facing a much larger holocaust with the horrific murder of 50 million unborn children. Why shouldn't we be "obsessed"? Fourth, it is not true that everyone agrees that abortion is wrong. Goodness, girl, haven't you every heard of Flo Kennedy ("If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament")? I am a DRE, and every year I have 8th grade girls defending the "right" of a woman to "have control over her body." Fifth, women who get abortions are not "attacked" by the Church or any responsible pro-lifer. It should be understood by everyone that women who abort do so not because they have a choice, but because they see no other choice. Nevertheless, in almost every instance the situation that brings a woman to an unwanted pregnancy is (surprise!) sex! It is the attitude that a woman (or a man) "should" be able to have sex without babies (the "contraceptive mentality") that leads to unwanted pregnancies, as well as a plethora of other social ills, and that is what needed to be addressed, attacked, debunked, corrected, etc.
How right you are in saying,
How right you are in saying, "It should be understood by everyone that women who abort do so not because they have a choice, but because they see no other choice."
However, the attitude is not that women and men should be able to have sex without consequences. The attitude is that nature allows men to have sex without consequences, and modern medicine now makes women equal to men in that regard. That women have control over their bodies is a comparably good attitude versus that men have control over women's bodies, as was the case in the past.
I wonder though, do you think that you could have carried and delivered twins without harm to yourself? Do you think you would have given them up for adoption? What if they had been handicapped, as many twins are, and not very likely to be adopted?
I think there should be room in Catholic teaching for the idea that the abundant forgiveness and love of God extends to those who have had abortions and that the aborted are in heaven with God, not suffering, and not wanting their mothers to suffer. If that offers too much encouragment toward abortion, then maybe there are other factors that the Church needs to address.
logic would say that ideology
logic would say that ideology of finding equality to men, means you want to be men, which is lesbianism tendencies, you want to be just as irresponsible as some men, you are uncomfortable and unhappy with yourself and your womanhood, so you spit on God's masterpiece, you display a personality confusion, and not admiring womanhood, in it's essence, makes you a woman hater....a misogynist....which is the ironical tragic comedy of modern feminism. It empowers by demeaning women...That's like a Hispanic, pushing the Hispanic culture, but abhorring the fact that we speak Spanish, or a black white supremacist....THAT IS NOT true feminism...the only thing modern feminism does is ridicule women by AFFIRMING weakness, and confirming the stereotype that "women nag too much". The fact I don't have a vagina, or unable to get pregnant, makes me admire you even more...not less, like you think. Learn to act with the true dignity and beauty of a woman, dressing, behaving and talking with modesty, and dignity....and maybe then some of us will start acting like real MEN. Inside from a man, for the women that always wondered what the heck is in our minds.
Diego, I hope you are using
Diego, I hope you are using "you" in place of "one", instead of applying it to me. I was offering the perspective of those who embrace contraception and abortion for ideological reasons. That does not mean that I hold that perspective. I only acknowledge that that perspective is influential and needs to be addressed--probably in somewhat the way you have in the above comment. Just addressing the consequences of that perspective is not effective.
The thing is that you have
The thing is that you have gone into detail and twisting and turning a subject that doesn not need it....Contraception and abortion are evil and demeaning, period...What else do you want to address?
This coming from a young guy who loves sex and women....using women is inexcusable...so why advocate contraception and abortion, or defend it at any level?....I think you might be a tad confused....as I was, and now recovering from the "sexual revolution" curse...It brought me nothing but misery and pain!
Am I to understand that
Am I to understand that despite your feeling that these things are evil, you have no compulsion to see them outlawed for everyone without regard to their perspective?
Married couples, Catholic and not, find contraceptive products useful. I believe that married women, more than men, appreciate having each pregnancy be something they consciously undertake as opposed to having everything revolve the possibility.
I agree...contraceptives are
I agree...contraceptives are useful...so is a gun and it kills people, just as contraceptives kills a woman's dignity.
This is not based on feeling, but experiences....it's called phenomenology, which is based on objective experiences, and I have seen the negative conscequences contraceptives produce, whether you are aware of it or not.
Now you can't possibly know what goes in a guy's mind, but speculate. I give you the insight from the "horse's mouth"
I never tell you what goes on inside w woman's mind, but I know when murder (abortion) and sexual coercion (contraceptives) "baby I love you, gimme some now" that guys use.....which I did as well (thee, hee)
But I don't justify or take pleasure in my sins, and I know I was wrong for it.
Diego, maybe you are not
Diego, maybe you are not married. However, most husbands do not have the perspective that they are taking advantage of their wives when they have relations with them. When people are married, they are a team. The husband is concerned for his wife's well-being, and if his wife is distressed over the possibility of pregnancy, he accepts her wisdom about tha using contraception would benefit her. He does not insist that she use contraception so that he can use her.
It is exactly the fact that
It is exactly the fact that I'm married why I tell you this...It is exactly how I played women, that I tell you this, and it is the capability that I can still trick my wife into it that I tell you this....as a MAN.
Answer me this... Do you KNOW for a FACT that your husband (if you ARE married) has YOU in his mind instead of another woman?? I want you to be 100% sure though, don't just speculate.
take a look at the pill...it may lead to infertility, cancer, heart problems, stroke, and bleeding problems. It also thins the lining of the uterus and is abrassive to the womb (woman's body).
Husband talking: "Honey I love you....take this pill" Are you serious???????
You don't put the person you love, at risk....that's why you should not be promiscuous before marriage, should not be promiscuous during marriage, and practice chastity during fertile times, IF you don't want to conceive at the time. Love waits, like they say....Lust does not, even if both parties agree.
Also, use of condoms is about as useful as masturbation, which is another form of self love, not mutual, since nothing is shared but an orgasm.
Then, your own logic would
Then, your own logic would make you unable to criticize Hitler's actions, because his "perspective" was that Jews were not human, so therefore, worthy of killing....So, should you have allowed him to kill Jews if you lived in Germany at that time? "You need to respect his decision" according to your thinking...
I know what he did was wrong, I don't care what he thinks! I know murder is wrong, I don't need justifications.
Now, you'll say "Well, majority rules...it's Democracy". I guess you still could not judge Hitler, because the whole Nazi party thought it was ok, as did many others in Germany and outside....even the "dormant" ones agreed with their innactivity, out of fear or ignorance.
Love is a choice, not a feeling. You can't let feelings rule your decisions....feelings are a bit unstable, which is why we have so many divorces, unwed mothers, infidelity, murder and an unstable society....and now we want to blame the Church (and even God) for our own errors????? That's crazy, irresponsible, and just plain ignorant.
From your completely
From your completely male-centered perspective comes this idea that if a couple uses contraception the man benefits to a sinful degree.
I cannot respond to the Hitler thing. It sounds crazy.
What convoluted logic this
What convoluted logic this is! Equality between men and women doesn't mean men want to be women any more than racial equality means black people want to be white. We all just want to be treated like people! And lesbians, by definition, LOVE women too (;
While I am happy to hear that
While I am happy to hear that you have recovered from your traumatic experiences, I hope it will not be taken offensively if I disagree with you on one point: that,since the rape was not her fault, there will not be guilt. That is not the case for many people, and I personally know survivors who struggle under this burden. It's not fair and it's not logical, but many times the most traumatizing aspect is the self-hatred, the feeling that an individual must in some way be responsible or deserve the bad things that have happened.
It also happens that I know women who have recieved abortions as well as teenage mothers, and some mothers suffer guilt for choosing to give birth, blaming themselves throughout life for the suffering of children who must grow up poor and sometimes mentally handicapped. I also know one woman who has recieved an abortion and, though she felt traumatized by it, is able to live her life fully and joyfully now. There is no telling how an individual's choice is going to make that individual feel later - it depends on many factors, the most important of which is self-love or forgiveness.
We're talking about rape not
We're talking about rape not sex between two consenting adults. Abortion is a legitimate option when the mother's life is in danger. If the women is an adult it is her decision to make. In the case of a nine year old it is the decision of the parents/guardians and medical professionals. No one has the right to say who lives or dies.
uhh yup! I guess I'm not
uhh yup! I guess I'm not alone with common sense, and sanctity of life. As a man, I agree that WE have NO SELF CONTROL....but somehow in our cowardice, we can control women, by beatings, and coercion, and money, and jewels....and I do NOT endorse that! And some women are dumb enough to fall for it, take the birth control pill, or let us use condoms, and keep letting us use you as a "masturbatory" as much as we say "But I love you"...."I'll cheat on you if you don't!" just to get you to comply...(yeah, that's how we do) That is sad...Any man who beats his wife, has no mother...
This is not Catholic....The
This is not Catholic....The authors are NOT Catholic....Most people here ARE NOT Catholic....They have NOO IDEA what being Catholic is or the Church's teachings! As much as the Magisterium and the Pope is criticized, I see many here acting as "popes"tjPC
Being Catholic makes you obedient to God and Rome, not the Government.
This whole thing is a sect, appeasing itself by calling itself "catholic"
Dear Diego, I am Catholic,
Dear Diego,
I am Catholic, born and raised. I went to a Catholic school for nine years. And I disagree with you that being Catholic makes you obedient to Rome. St. Peter was the first pope, and St. Paul never hesitated to criticize him. Pope Benedict himself said, we must obey our own consciences above ecclesiastical authority. We must be obedient to God before men, of course, but Rome is not God. My conscience is telling me that Jesus's example is more important than that of any pope in history. Jesus prevented a mob from stoning a prostitute, saying, "Let the one of you who has not sinned throw the first stone." Men of authority in our church are still men, and therefore they are not without sin. They should worry less about CONDEMNING the suffering mother and little girl, and more about HEALING their wounds, like Jesus. They should try to resemble Jesus more, instead of trying so hard to make other people resemble their idea of Jesus.
Diego - Is yours a "Catholic"
Diego - Is yours a "Catholic" response?
What makes someone Catholic?
Where in the Gospels does it say that you should not use your intellect, nor question authority, including the acts of priests or the Pope's acts or the interpretation of the laws of the Church? Didn't Jesus question the authorities?
Does being Catholic mean that when we see injustices or a lack of compassion for others we are not allowed to speak up about it? Does our religion impose a gag order against reporting? Whatever happened to the idea that Jesus gave us to love our neighbor as ourselves?
Doesn't being Catholic mean that one should strive to be honest and to love our neighbor? And shouldn't it also mean that when we see something shady going on or not quite Catholic and have the need to address it or report it to others openly, that being Catholic is not what's most important, but being honest is, as well as having love for one's neighbor and reporting honestly.
Is being honest and having love for one's neighbor something that God would not approve of? And isn't it God that in the final analysis we all are always going to have to report to.
Please share your ideas with us here Diego.
Sure thing.....If I truly
Sure thing.....If I truly strive to be honest and love my neighbor, I SHOULD point out his faults, as he should point out mine, ie: Abortion is ALWAYS wrong, murdering a baby is NEVER justified. The little girl is not at fault, her parents and perpetrator are...Being a Catholic is also speaking truth IN LOVE and calling a spade a spade....induced Abortion is caused by a murderer...Pornography is watched by a pervert...contraception is used because we behave like ANIMALS and don't know the beauty and holiness of sex.
Now does it mean I hate or condemn her parents, perpetrator, "contraceptors", perverts and others???? NOOO...nonesense! I love them, and I want the best for them, as I would expect it for myself...If we keep quiet, Jesus wasted His time coming here to die, then.
Seriously, would you go to a doctor, be diagnosed with cancer, and have the doctor tell you you're ok because he didn't want to distress you with the news you had cancer?????? Ridiculous! I would like to know personally because it can be treated if it's caught early, not later when it's too late....You call that a QUACK of a doctor! That is medical malpractice....period! A good priest will tell you YOU ARE SICK, unless we feel so perfect.
I say all this with full intellect, logic and lucidity and I do not question authorities because I do not want to question the very people Christ himself appointed as priests, and head of HIS Church...not "our" Church.
Question a CEO of a company about a company move he did, and be disrespectful about it, and see how quickly you get fired......I want to "keep my job" thank you...and I don't want to wait to find out what happens if I do otherwise
Your ideology worries me, many here sound like "Protestant catholics" If you feel like questioning the Church....where is your faith??????? Are you saying God doesn't know what He is doing?? I am in good conscience, love and truth telling you all this.....after having studied about the church, even if someone told me they studied 20 years, that means NOTHING....A good tree is known by its fruits....dissent, arrogance and making yourself "a pope" is a rotten apple.
Seems like your faith is in
Seems like your faith is in the power of the Catholic Church and your conformity to its teachings instead of in the love of God and the redemption He gave us through His son. Do the people you "love" find you insufferable by any chance? Do you effectively accuse them of committing sins that they do not commit by telling them what they should and should not be doing?
I am truly embarrassed and
I am truly embarrassed and grateful for your comments. I truly do thank you for affirming me in the Catholic faith. I do mean that. That tells me I'm a "son" of my Mother Church....and I'm a biiig mama's boy!
The same Church founded by Christ....Where countless martyrs gave their life for the faith....where many saints endured torture and exile for the sake of Christ...
The same Christ that "insulted" the Pharisees...
The same Christ that beat the marketers out of the Temple....
The same Christ that defended the prostitute, but did NOT affirm her in her sin "Go and sin no more"
The same Jesus that spoke about hell in numerous occasions...
The same Jesus that said we must prefer Him over anything, including family and I don't mean disown (yeah even if my own blood is in major error and I wrote that for the pansies of heart)
The same GOD that said I would be held accountable if I did not speak out in truth and love, and warned my neighbor about sin and that would lead to his/her perdition (Ezekiel 33)
See? I know more than just "judge not lest ye be judged" and "Love one another" those are covered.....but I don't strictly USE those to my twisted advantage and declare myself a Theologian or worse...a POPE maybe, since that's a curse word around here...
Again, sincerely, thank you for the compliment.
Interesting way you
Interesting way you rationalize ignoring corruption and criminal behavior.
What I am reading from you is that you believe it is acceptable for a member of the clergy to commit criminal acts and not be held accountable. It sounds like you are calling anyone who questions the integrity of a member of the clergy "a protestant". It sound like you are calling anyone who demands accountability of the clergy as a rotten apple. I'm really surprised, that I did not see heretic anywhere.
A good tree truly is known by its fruits. Pedophile Priests, Embezzling by Bishops, Bishops who protected pedophiles, Cardinal Ratzinger who published a letter stating how to intimidate witnesses and interfere in the investigations of the pedophiles. Extortion. Blackmail. Deceit. Antisemitism. All of these are fruits that speak so clearly of the tree they grow on.
When we look at the full extent of the sins of the Fathers, brood of Vipers takes on a whole new meaning.
Thank you Diego for your
Thank you Diego for your response to mine.
You said "If I truly strive to be honest and love my neighbor, I SHOULD point out his faults, as he should point out mine, ie: Abortion is ALWAYS wrong, murdering a baby is NEVER justified."
Let's discuss MURDER. We have this in common ideologically, that murder is a crime, and is a sin against one's neighbor. Thou shalt not kill is the Commandment.
For crimes of MURDER, we know that there are different kinds of murder. They are either DELIBERATE, INTENTIONAL, PRE-MEDITATED - PLANNED OUT AHEAD OF TIME, IN SELF-DEFENSE, FOR THE DEFENSE OF OTHERS THAT OFFICERS OF THE LAW TAKE AN OATH TO SERVE AND PROTECT, etc., which would give it a specific sentence appropriate to the crime. Some murders are 1st degree, 2nd degree, etc.
We know that all TYPES of MURDER are not EQUAL. We know that we have to take into account a number of things in order to guage the severity of the crime committed. There is testimony taken, scientific evidence is collected, there is a jury of peers to listen to all sides. This is part of the "justice" system, so that people are given the right to defend themselves. All sides of the story have to be taken into account, in order for their to be RIGHTEOUS judgment. If we just took things at face value, we would never uncover the TRUTH.
If you were a policeman and there was someone wielding a gun at you and others, you would have the right in self defense and in defense of other innocent parties to shoot him and MURDER the person with the gun. Right?
If you were a policeman and just decided to pull your gun out and start shooting, now that would be a different kind of MURDERING.
But, what if the policeman were excommunicated because he defended himself and his neighbors who were threatened?
Think through this for a time, and think through the entire story of this little 9 year old girl who was tortured with rape and then forced into a pregnancy she could never bring to term at age 9 and consider the type of CRIME and who is truly guilty here of a real crime that deserves just judgment.
Please do this, Diego, and think it through with all of the variables and types of murder and killing that are acceptable in cases of self-defense which includes going to War.
No sister in Christ, thank
No sister in Christ, thank you!
Now before I respond, we need to put things in their proper context, perhaps you misunderstand the meaning between kill and murder.
Lets begin with kill:
To put to death.
Now lets look at murder:
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
Now notice both cause death, but only MURDER is premeditated.
A cop or soldier may kill someone in self-defense
A serial killer premeditates his victims' deaths so he murders
i.e. an abortionist is a murderer by hire...or a distressed mother murders her child by abortion (which she deserves to know the loving truth in a charitable embracing way, that an abortion is a serious sin punishable by excommunication, in which she can be reinstated back if she's sorry and confesses her sin to a loving priest...I don't know why you guys make such a big deal when all she needs to do is humble herself, be sorry, and confess that's all....Just like all the "pedophile" priests did. They asked for forgiveness)...or people allow babies to be murdered in the womb on a daily basis.
Murder is unlawful as the definition states, as you state with the 5th commandment....So why do you justify murder then??????
Unless you can somehow prove that the babies were wielding a semi-automatic or a sharp machete, that is not called killing... that is pure God-unlawful MURDER.
She could have undergone a c-section if her hips were not wide enough, but people are gonna go nuts with that comment I assure you, yet the same 9 year old could have any other abdominal operation?????
According to the logic of "a c-section is dangerous," no child could ever undergo any operation....only an adult can!! Oh yeah...we can always kill children ahead of time and so they will never be sick! ok, ok I understand your logic now...because apparently those children are dead, and you are not God to know if all 3 could've been kept alive, so don't assume, because I'm not.
Again...where's your faith?
When you fully embrace
When you fully embrace non-violence and recognize that truly following Jesus means we may not kill or harm others, which includes more than just opposing abortion, I'll accept your position as reasoned and faithful to Christ. When you're spending as much time protesting all wars and fighting against the death penalty as you are fighting against abortion, then we'll know your true intentions. Until you demonstrate that your choice for life is a seamless garment, your fixation with abortion is exposed as hypocritical and a convenient excuse for misogyny.
Thank you for your comment,
Thank you for your comment, SeamlessGarment, because Diego's response makes absolutely no sense to me at all. For him to ask where is my faith, he is clueless really about the difference between faith in dogma and Church teachings that are erroneous and the BIG DIFFERENCE of having and practicing one's faith in Jesus Christ.
Diego does not realize that a 9 year old girl can not give birth to twins without also dying. He also lacks compassion for the little girl. He acts as if he were a doctor. He is not a doctor. The doctor saved the little girl's life.
Diego is brainwashed and I can only blame those who have taught him this garbage way of twisted non-thinking, thinking without compassion or mercy for the little girl. This infuriates me, to think that people are teaching this NONSENSE that this little girl should have died. They aren't doctors, so how dare they teach that saving the little girls life was wrong.
So you're a doctor? Who said
So you're a doctor? Who said I didn't care about the 9 year old girl??? Only your liberal, close minded agenda driven person would. 2 babies still died and that fact cannot be denied....I care about her body and soul...You only care about your agendas, I doubt you care for her life even.
So how many post abortive people have you counseled? How many anti-war rallies have you attended? How many anti-death penalty rallies have you picketed?
Again, how can you assume they would all have died if she gave birth to them???? Don't lie to yourself, you are not a doctor....to lie to yourself is to act out of foolishness. To lie to the infinite God....well, that would be infinite foolishness.
I'm sorry, I will say no longer, since only "regurgitating bumper sticker slogans" passes here for using your brain, and not being brainwashed.
Diego, in all honesty, your
Diego, in all honesty, your extreme antiabortion position in each and every circumstance including rape of a 9 year old child, disables your reasoning faculties from seeing and dealing with the reality here with compassion and grace. A little girl of 9 years old cannot carry twins as there is not enough room in her little child body to do so. Where is Dr. Dennis Porch when I need him to discuss this? It is not possible if one considers the size of the child and the room required for two developing fetuses. And furthermore, it is TORTURE AND MURDER for you to say that she should have stayed in a state of pregnancy that would have KILLED her. A doctor has already stated she would have died. You are in fact saying that to KILL her is the righteous thing to do and saying that the doctor is a murderer. That is utterly absurd and barbaric and indicates an extreme form of fanaticism on your part, and overlooking the entire situation for the little girl and the developing fetuses that would have had no room in her child body to develop much further. Please listen here: she could not have carried the twins for much longer and they could not have survived outside the fetus on their own or in an incubator. Until such time as there might be the medical technology to save the twins, this is the ultimate decision that the doctor made with what he could do at the time.
Obviously, you have never carried a child and nor will you ever, so in my opinion you really have no say in what a woman chooses to do if she is raped and gets pregnant, or what she chooses is in the best interest of her child if she is raped. A 9 year old child cannot be expected to carry a pregnancy to term. That is just utter nonsense and crazy - absolutely insane. There is no dignity being shown towards women by forcing them to have a child when she is raped. The decision should be left to the woman. Not all women have chosen an abortion if they are raped. But decisions like this that are so personal really have no business being dictated by men or any other person or authority. It should be left to her conscience to decide in the case of rape.
I have absolutely no reason to lie to you Diego. To accuse me of being a liar is very rude of you and shows a lack of grace and maturity on your part for how to conduct yourself towards others as a Christian. We have a difference of opinion. That does not mean that I am lying. This is no way for you treat others who don't agree with you. About loving one's neighbor, do you knock on your neighbor's door and accuse them of lying because they have a different opinion than you have? They could turn around and very well accuse you of the same and a shouting match will occur and it could lead to physical violence by either or both parties. This is not what Jesus taught us to do towards our neighbor, to provoke them, to be angry and insulting. If this is what it means for you to be Catholic, you are dishonoring the faith and breaking a Commandment against your neighbor.
As to your questions to me, they really have nothing to do with the subject here as far as I am concerned and they seem rather rhetorical in nature.
The subject of brainwashing is a very interesting one and one that I am somewhat familiar with Diego. When one is constantly being told by authority figures what supposedly the Truth is, especially in politics or religion, and one does not dare think or truly seek the truth with God, there is a high probability that one is essentially being brainwashed, or in modern language, suckered, to conform to someone else's beliefs and way of reasoning. Such a person is a pawn for all sorts of people in authority to use as they please. The intellect of the human being is the doorway to finding God and truth, if one chooses to go there and open the door and use it. You are familiar with the saying that "if you don't use it, you lose it."
It is our ability to reason with the loving God that enhances and enriches our Faith in God, our relationship with the infinite and loving God. He provides the answers for our conscience to remember what His will is for us. This is not a "bumper sticker slogan." I am using my individual Free Will, given by God, to reason using the intellect God has given me to reason.
Reasoning is a power and freedom given to us by God. To ignore a gift that God has freely given to both men and women, and to throw it away and allow others the control of our intellect, or the control of our bodies, is as good as throwing away reason and freedom all together, and that would be a serious sin against God and one's neighbor in my opinion.
To journey or pilgrim in life with the infinite and supreme divine being of love is a journey that has everything to do with love for one's neighbor as thyself. Jesus teaches us the way and he has set the example. The world murders and kills the spirit and the body. Jesus has delivered us from the shackles of death and sin, when we meet him in prayer and with an honest heart without malice and with only forgiveness for the choices others make that we may feel have hurt us or others.
Jesus gave us the Lord's Prayer. Pray it Diego, with all your heart and mind. Jesus still is healing and teaching, if we allow him into our heart and intellect and let Him be the Teacher and guide in our life.
As for labeling me "liberal, close-minded agenda driven person" you are bearing false witness against me. My only agenda, if you want to call it that, is to try to reason with you as a neighbor and as a Catholic. You really need to address your lack of compassion and disregard for your neighbors and your obstinate insistence that my thinking should conform to yours and be the deciding factor of determining Catholic identity for everyone.
I'm sorry when I didn't
I'm sorry when I didn't explain myself, I don't mean to insult you. I don't say you are lying, because your a bad person...I'm saying you're lying because your a good person living a lie. The mentality is the lie here...I can see you're being sincere and doing the best you can.
Now, I will grant you something, now that I think about it....
You're right....I AM brainwashed!!!!
Brainwashed by the teachings of Christ! Aside from all other worldly teachings, I have personally found Christ's to be fully true, and He's the boss...I will try to obey, even though I WANT to obey.
I am "suckered" by His love....OH, I'm a fool......What a joy to be a fool! A buffoon for Christ!
Now the question is....Is His teaching based on someone's opinion with no authority? Or is it by His decrees and by the Church He established through the ages?
I am brainwashed by Christ love, peace and truth, and I can't deny it...sorry, opinions, political parties and ideals lose.
I choose God over mammon...
Diego, report to us after you
Diego, report to us after you give birth for the first time. I am always amazed at the number of men who can see this issue only as black and white. I am a lifelong Catholic, whose father studied in the seminary for 6 years before leaving and marrying. I have a sister who is a nun. I also have four children. If one of my daughters had been raped and pregnant at the age of nine, I would certainly have the pregnancy terminated. I believe that God is all good, and would never want to put a poor defenseless child through such a horrible experience, compounding years of being raped, by forcing her to carry twins and endanger her life. You seem to be unable to see that God gave us free will and intellect in order for us to exercise judgement in difficult cases such as these. Perhaps it's because you have never given birth that you are so rigid. God Bless.
You are so right...I have
You are so right...I have never given birth! But I HAVE been birthed, as have you, by a mother, who I am incredibly grateful for and allowed me to live. I support my pregnant wife, and I try to do as many things for her as possible (ie, a servant, as my duty to my wife is according to Ephesians 5)...Black and white??? What's so grey about "thou shall not kill"?? Pretty simple...Seminary and "education" mean nothing, when education is based on relativism...and then you anger about priests naming them "pedophiles"???? If your father wouldn't have followed the vocation of marriage, you, a blessing from God, would not exist, and God bless your sister for becoming a nun....Your OWN family member should prove to you that people CAN live in self-control, and that sex does not equal love, as we see it....(Don't spit up in the air, because it might just hit you in the face). I'm still looking for a sensical argument....If rape was really "traumatizing" that means that ALL raped women stop having sex...and You know that is not true. So you tell me a girl that is raped by a man, it would make it better if she got "raped" by a surgical instrument, and add murder in the process??? That make sense =/ (he he). Now she has rape and murder to think about, not to mention the "what if" that dwells in the mind always....pray for them.
God gave us free will, but to chose right from wrong, not to make your own laws (man made), so Here's the choice....You choose God's laws or your own?
I am "rigid" not because I have never been pregnant, but out of gratefulness for life, to God...again, don't spit up in the air, apparently at God, because ANY abortion is telling God that woman, as creation was wrong, the womb was a mistake, pregnancy is a curse (all anti-biblical)...woman is defective.....who's the mysogynist here???? I love women, I don't know about you. Your beef is with irresponsible, out of control men who abuse women and use them sexually, not innocent children....that makes a better argument...that I will second, as a man....Men are pigs! And we need women to help us change, in purity and courage, not affirm us in weakness and continuing seeing you as sex objects, by passing me a condom. God bless you and may we open our hearts to Christ's teachings...Pray for me, that I may be a pure, chaste, responsible, holy husband and father...like St. Joseph.
Diego, stop commenting on
Diego, stop commenting on this site. You are the only person I have ever encountered foolish enough to say that rape is not traumatizing. You have no idea what you're talking about. God forbid it should ever happen to your wife, or your children - you would curse them with your insensitivity and disconnect with the world. God forbid it ever happen to you, because then you will understand the pain you are disregarding as nonexistent, and there might be no comfort for you.
Why do you slander me and try
Why do you slander me and try to shut me up? Why are you imposing on me? Why do you judge me? That is not Christ-like, you're supposed to love me not judge me and call me foolish =)....Sound familiar? Same hypocritical tone with which people here criticize the Magisterium, huh?...But that's ok, I KNOW you're a hypocrite, and so am I...We're sinners....duh! =)
...Rape IS traumatizing, I don't deny that...but rape AND murder is even more traumatizing....You use rape as an excuse for abortion and to justify it's legalization (95% of cases are because of inconvenience...0.01% due to rape).
Did you read all I wrote? You misinterpret me like you misinterpret the Bible. If my wife got raped and pregnant, that would not justify me to coerce her into an abortion. My Christian duty is to support her, not affirm her in murder. She would not choose murder either BTW =). Even in rape, a child is conceived in love, because where God is, love is, and where God is, life is...unless Satan can give life, which he doesn't have the power to, and you'd calling all rape children, the devil's children...that's a bit harsh to call these people...would not be very Christian, ma'am.
I am not implying you're saying that, BTW....Just rationalizing.
While I'm dumb, this is the mind of the Church, which is infinitely smart,even beyond your understanding. I have given you facts and rationalizing to back it up...You only give me opinions and name calling....answer me one question....what is a fetus??? Anyone...WHAT IS A FETUS?
LEARN TO READ. I didn't say
LEARN TO READ. I didn't say anything about abortion. I'm criticizing you for your words, "If rape was really "traumatizing" that means that ALL raped women stop having sex...and You know that is not true." You DID deny that rape is not traumatizing - how else can that statement possibly be interpreted? I said that is a foolish thing to say, and I'll add that it's an insensitive and patently incorrect thing to say. I want to shut you up because you're saying ridiculous, hurtful things and you're not contributing to the discussion. The majority of commentators have not disagreed with you that fetuses are living humans. Most commentators are appalled at the apparent lack of concern within the Church for the pain of rape survivors. Start listening, stop trying to prove that you're right - this isn't a battle, it's a discussion, so try to participate in a constructive manner.
"I believe that God is all
"I believe that God is all good, and would never want to put a poor defenseless child through such a horrible experience"
I agree...AMEN!! so...why do you justify killing him/her?
I want you to answer me only one question...WHAT IS A FETUS???? I don't need tangent reasons....just answer that one...anyone...
WHAT IS A FETUS????
WHAT IS A FETUS???
WHAT IS A FETUS??
WHAT IS A FETUS?
...a fetus? A slave? a Jew?
Nothing else....thank you =)
Just a thought...How did Jesus enter creation?? anyone?
To follow Jesus you must follow his steps and not be foolish to skip any.
Do you even pay attention, or
Do you even pay attention, or think about what you're writing????? Is this an automated reply system???? I thought those were not allowed.
How would you know I am for war and the death penalty????? Why do you judge me so???? Do you know me??
Well, I don't know you and you don't know my positions on those other 2 subjects either, so from here on it's just speculation city for you.
I don't know you, but I know you don't dismember children....it is socially grotesque and an Abomination in the eyes of God.
I hate war since it's driven by pride and kills my brethren...attacker and attackee. I guess you hate the allied powers in WWII too =) Are you pro-Hitler? Apparently he also alienated millions of Jews (babies) and didn't consider them persons so he had them killed (abortion) and tortured in scientific experiments (embryonic stem cell research)...much like this administration.
I hate the death penalty as well since some innocents have died as well. I pray for both to end and I don't wish them on anyone...I can safely assume you are for babies dying....but wait, that IS your position! You have declared it so
Let me give you a clue....The Catholic Church hates both war and death penalty as well. Are you Catholic?????? Do you pick up books, or strictly stick to the MSM??
Let me give you a whopper of a clue....I have a mother, I have sisters, I have a wife and I love them to death....The apex of creation, according to the Church is...MOTHER MARY!!!!!! a WOMAN, go figure....A WOMAN I give my life to daily with the recitation of the rosary and whom I am not worthy of, for the glory of Christ!
misogyny???? Get a clue....I will pray for you, and your hardened, confused heart
I am not immune to my own
I am not immune to my own comments I assure you. As a reply to myself, I beg also....yeah, beg all of you fellow bloggers, Christians, NCR and everyone in the mix, that you keep me in your prayers as well. Pray for me that I may be willing to let go of this wicked pride and disobedience in my heart...
Also I thank God immensely for all He has given me, even His life, and please pray that I may be able to reciprocate Him with my insignificant life, through love, obedience, and humility, only by His grace.
That He may straighten my crooked lines....Thank You
Diego, the question to
Diego, the question to whomever you are writing to "Are you pro-Hitler?" No, but the Pope just lifted the excommunication of a Bishop who apparently is pro-Hitler and doesn't believe the Jews went to gas chambers. As well, the Church never excommunicated the "Catholic" Hitler. Go figure and get a clue as to why is this? Ask the question of Pope Benedict and the Church authorities lifting the excommunication of this Bishop who denies the holocaust happened.
Regarding your statement that you can "safely assume you are for babies dying." This is a lie Diego. You are lying.
The question is, do you really ever pay attention or think about what you are saying, or what others are trying to communicate to you?
When I became Catholic nine
When I became Catholic nine years ago I had to say before recieving the Sacraments "I believe in all that the Catholic Church teaches and hold to be true." The Church teaches these Truth as an instument of God with His authority. Where doe it say that in the Gospels? Mathew 18 He said to His Apostles "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven..." This authority is passed down through the Bishops with pimre authority being given to the office of Peter, Matthew 16:18. We see Peter's supreme authority played out in Acts 15 "And after much debate, Peter rose" and the debate ends. The Church does not ask us to give up our intellects but she asks us to have faith in order to understand, "I would not understand if I had not first believed". The cases for priestesses and contraception are not new issues and form the very begining they have been condemned by the Church. Perhaps you are correct and the Church is wrong but either way you set yourself squarely agasinst the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Church is not wrong, in
Church is not wrong, in excommunicating. It's fair and sees everyone as equal, just like a strong, loving mother disciplines her children, for the sake of the household. The Church has NEVER disowned anyone...people separate themselves from Her, which is different. She always waits with open arms to receive her children, for the sake of themselves and Her bridegroom, Christ.
Also in Matthew 16:18 Jesus is VERY clear ""I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the GATES OF HADES WILL NOT OVERPOWER IT.
The Church is incapable of teaching error because it is moved by the Holy Spirit, in accordance to Jesus' words...if not, then Jesus is a liar. He leaves us no choice...or actually he does. To obey or to disobey...Heaven or Hell.
To say abortion, contraception, woman priesthood, and all these heretical (you were waiting for me to say it, weren't you, you silly goose!) views are the right views are to go against the word of Christ passed down age to age for over 2000 years....and people say the church needs to get with it??? People have had 2000 years to "get with it"...the word of God, that is! Think I'm archaic, Vatican I? I'm post Vatican II baby....Thank you JP2, I love you! Thanks be to God for setting me free of my past way of "free" relative thinking, and being now happy beyond belief! Yeah, by the "chains" of the Magisterium, and the Laws of God, I am truly free!
Unfortunately, you are a
Unfortunately, you are a slave to the Magisterium's teachings, as they have become slaves to themselves, which have remained Medieval and old and dead and have separated from the Living Jesus Christ and His Living Word and His teachings as a result of following the dead letter of the law. They have become blind guides without compassion or mercy. They have become judges and the jury.
The Holy Spirit is not contained in the Catholic Church's Magisterium. The Holy Spirit cannot be contained into a box, into the decisions made by a small group of men who claim infallibility. The Holy Spirit comes and goes as it pleases the Lord. God's Will, Will Be Done and the GATES OF HADES WILL NOT OVERPOWER IT.
A definition of Church is truly warranted at this time in history. There are currently two Churches. One, made up of the institution and the Magisterium and all of their worldly wealth and desires and perceptions of truth. Then there is that spirit of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Christ who Ascended into Heaven and is seated at the Right Hand of the Father. This is the Church that the gates of hades will not overpower. This is the Church that Christ built on the rock of Peter. The Institutional Church spiritually is challenged to truly incorporate the Holy Spirit into its Acts. The choice now is in choosing the Church that is truly guided by the Holy Spirit, or a Church that is guided by blind Men who are misogynist, exclusive, laying burdens without lifting a finger to help.
Following blind guides does not lead to the light of Truth.
dang...You leave me with
dang...You leave me with little words, not because I lack them, but because I would waste my time.
You said all that...based on what????WHat authority do you base that on????
"Love one another???"
get beyond that passage, but you'd think that would mean I am rejecting it, I bet.
Diego, the living Jesus is
Diego, the living Jesus is the Authority and Head of the Church, the Body of Christ. The Christ who has ascended into heaven is not about the dead letter of the law. His Kingdom is at hand and "heaven is within you." He promised to send His Holy Spirit. I believe in that promise by Jesus Christ. The promise to be the Teacher, the guide, the friend. He says "Follow Me."
To give Authority to anyone other than Jesus is creating idolatry for the institutional church, as opposed to Love for God and putting God first and foremost. The Magisterium is being untruthful when they claim perfection to their opinions, in saying that they have infallible truth and that they alone are gifted with the Holy Spirit, and only through them and pledging allegiance to them and the Institution can we be saved or enlightened by Jesus Christ.
The institutional Church's hierarchy, in proclaiming infallibility of teaching and giving themselves the sole Authority over Truth creates the circumstances for the People of God as a whole to be misled and misguided by mere mortal men.
Do not underestimate the Power and Wisdom of God Almighty. It is to God that people of Faith should claim their allegiance, obedience, loyalty and love. It is to God that I bow my head and kneel down before in prayer. Do you find anything objectionable in my so doing? If so, try to not condemn me or throw stones at me in your communication to me.
So Jesus messed up by
So Jesus messed up by choosing MEN to shepherd His flock???? In a nut shell.....
Even Jesus RULE is that, the Apostles (not everyone) were to shepherd the flock, clear as water in the Bible....True Catholics go by what Jesus says...not some protestantized opinion and a disobedience to His teaching, and His appointments as teachers...It's been like that since day one of the Church...read the church fathers...the same ones whom the apostles personally taught.
If your ideology holds any water, that means the gates of hell prevailed up until the Reformation....IF the "reformators" got it right, supposedly.
That's very unBiblical...sorry. God doesn't err...we do, and even so, he appointed us men (ie: Magisterium...starting with PETER the Rock) to shepherd the sheep.
God help us all see the light and our own iniquity, and pride.
Yes, Jesus chose only men to
Yes, Jesus chose only men to be his 12 disciples. This is a good observation. I would like to point out some other traits of Jesus's chosen disciples which are quite as obvious and circumstantial: he chose only circumcised Jews. He chose only inhabitants of Galilea. He chose only contemporaries of Pontius Pilot. He chose only members of an agrarian society. None of them were lame, blind, or deaf. None of them were wealthy. None of them were black. None of them spoke English. None of them were elderly. Maybe it's shocking to you to consider how selective Jesus was. Why didn't he show up TODAY, HERE, with us? Why didn't he point at you or me specifically and in public invite us to join him? I really want you to think seriously about all of these characteristics. If the fact that Jesus avoided living in our generation wouldn't stop you from taking on authority in the church, then why would the fact that he didn't specifically invite women mean that he was barring us? Please think about how this makes us feel - to be told that because we are women, we don't resemble Christ or his followers enough. To be told that 'Jesus didn't pick you', because we lack one among many characteristics of him and his disciples. What if the priesthood were barred to all North or South Americans - how would that make you feel? If you were told that Jesus choosing to live 2,000 years ago among agrarian arabs meant that he obviously didn't want you to be an official leader or spokesperson in his Church? The men of ecclesiastical authority who decided that Jesus choosing a patriarchy was important ignored all these other factors that would have excluded them. Probably it never even occured to them that these other factors seperated them from Jesus's followers, because they know that Jesus loves them and wouldn't reject them, and yet they don't mind saying Jesus would reject women as his disciples. They have judged, although they don't want to be judged themselves as unworthy of the priesthood. I know that Jesus loves me and wouldn't reject me; I see just as much liklihood in Jesus choosing me as any of the men who claim to resemble his followers. The call of God to individuals is not subject to the interpretatiion of the wider Church community. We must obey God, not men.
These are very good points,
These are very good points, Shielding Cournoyer.
Real quick...that's Pontius
Real quick...that's Pontius "Pilate", not Pilot, unless he had a personal plane, like the president does, who allows innocent to die out of cowardice =). I know I'm a jerk, but I got to change that =)
I do commend you for your passion and dedication, and you build a nice tower of "Babble"(I know it's Babel), and since it's made of sticks, let me give you the one God built...made of Jesus and Peter, the Rock.
The apex of creation is MARY....a WOMAN, according to the Church...God Chose a WOMAN to come to this earth...
Mary, QUEEN OF HEAVEN AND EARTH is sinless, spotless, pure, courage, might, love and peace, and the proto-type for the Church...all by God's grace...The apostles were sinful, dirty, sneaky men who's life was transformed by God...
Don't you think Jesus would have chose HER as a HIGH PRIESTESS, HIS OWN MOTHER, rather than all those clumsy, sinful men???? ....Poof! answer me that one....
let me flick the lights on and watch the roaches scatter....Out of priestesses, you want the glory, but not the guts....You want the ship, but you refuse to captain it, if the ship starts sinking...remember, the captain goes down with his ship...the men are called to suffer and die, in service of the Church (the ship), as men are to their spouses (Ephesians 5)
Let me stomp the ideals that sink you(not you, You are a precious daughter of the King).....
I am a man....Why did God call me for marriage and not the priesthood????
I wasn't called either, hun, but I am called to submission and Holiness as are you.
God bless
Not many words to debunk that one...only common sense and truth, which is Christ's teaching, from an imperfect man like me. Whether you don't see your position, which is of admiration, sacredness and holiness (like that of Mary's Queenship) that is your complex, then, you choose to be a man, being unhappy as a woman....that's lesbianism in a nut shell.
He doesn't reject you...You
He doesn't reject you...You are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO precious! You are the daughter of the King!!! The daughter of Mary!!!
We men, are (suppossed to be, at least) your knights, your protectors, providers and defenders...and I admit we have done a HORRIBLE job...and I am sorry, on behalf of all me, even the ones too prideful and chicken to admit they are wrong...which is why I am so passionate about women, as is Jesus....I think He's more "obsessed" with women than I, but He does it in the right way, I do it the wrong way.
I truly believe that you need a real WOMAN like the Virgin Mary, to make a real man! And that's why I plead that Our Lady, and all you women, pray for me and all men, that we may stop using women, by use of contraception, and coercing you to have sex in a threat to leave you or cheat on you, and put your health in danger....for not being men enough to take the responsability of fatherhood and rather, coerce you into an abortion, just for my convenience, or leaving you...Sorry, for making you sex objects and inferior, and superficial, instead of seeing your courage in childbirth, in the love you give, the nurture you provide, and for being the heart of the family....HOLY MARY, PRAY FOR US!! pray for us...coward men. Men's role is to serve, not be served...that's why God chose men to service the Church, as Jesus serves His bride the Church, as He has set the example...and yet the Church is so full of Women saints...All after Mary's heart, as we all should be, to God's glory and love.
The word WOMAN is a title of respect...not a derogatory term...When did we lose focus of that????
I do appreciate your
I do appreciate your admiration for women. However, aren't you putting us up on a pedestal? You sound worshipful of women, but Jesus says we shouldn't worship any but God. No human, man or woman, is made to be worshipped, because we are all imperfect. Look at us as just regular people. The reality is, women suffer and die just as much as men. Look at childbirth itself - isn't it among the most extreme forms of pain?
"Do not underestimate the
"Do not underestimate the Power and Wisdom of God Almighty. It is to God that people of Faith should claim their allegiance, obedience, loyalty and love. It is to God that I bow my head and kneel down before in prayer. Do you find anything objectionable in my so doing? If so, try to not condemn me or throw stones at me in your communication to me"
I don't....I claim my allegiance to God, not your god or your liberal opinions....obedience, wow,you've said it but, in irony, you reject those whom Jesus appointed, and whom you are subject to, if you're a Catholic. If you accept 99.9% of Church teaching, you are not a Catholic...that is protestantism, no matter how you paint it.
...And I commend you for praying and trying to do your best, but I do find any abortion objectionable, because it breaks your allegiance to God, by rejecting his rule "you shall not kill," and accepting mortal sin, which is in turn disobedience, which makes you disloyal, and with no God there can be no love...hence, you're ok with murdering innocents at all costs.
Babies will die in procedures and they will also be miscarried, undertstand that....what I have a problem with is that the doctor went in to kill deliberately, without thinking..."oh hey...I'm a doctor!! I'm supposed to save lives, not take them!" It's called the Hippocratic oath...read this part of it: "Above all, I must not play at God" and that's what doctors are doing now with abortion, euthanasia, EMBRYONIC stem cell research, and who knows what other aberrations....
He should've done all possible to save them ALL, and if the babies died, then that's another thing...but you don't barge in like "Columbine" and start shooting like a raving lunatic...that would be induced abortion at all levels.
Also I was not condemning you or throwing stones at you...I was telling you the truth. I grant it that I may not be articulate enough to convey my message in a proper way, but that in part may be also thanks to the society you "sexual revolution druggie make love not war hippies" left us (I'm still in my 20's by the way, I'm not some lonely old guy)...thanks, you reap what you sow, and now I leave a bad taste in your mouth from your own fruits and rebellious attitude. Thanks for not telling us to stop and letting us do whatever the heck we wanted, out of ignorance and laziness. I throw this "revolution" back at your face, society, which has brought me nothing but misery...Anyway, your conscience might be feeling a little tender, if it really bothered you that much. If you want the stones to stop...just don't cast them at yourself, silly! =)
Pray for me...I got a lot of "kidney" stones of my own, you are not alone in this, sis.
All I can say is: they (the
All I can say is: they (the bishops) are SO OUT OF TOUCH! Their use of excommunication as a "weapon" is anti-Gospel, anti-Jesus. I teach Catholic college students who say they will not be confirmed in the Catholic church. They do not care about the future, except for the "little (exclusive) flock" --such a minority is against the preaching of Jesus.
So Jesus is being anti-Gospel
So Jesus is being anti-Gospel and anti-Jesus where he says in the Gospel, "If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector." (Matthew 18:17)
Perhaps if you knew what you were talking about ... ?
Your faith is in the
Your faith is in the catechism, in canon and in the Magisterial Authority. You believe that your faith in law and man is justified because the men you place your faith in claim to be Christ's disciples, claim to be guardians of the deposit of faith, claim to be leading the one true church and only true church of god. You quote Matt 18:17 to defend your position.
However, when we read Matt 23, we see a different picture. We see a very clear description of the Magisterial Authorities of today, not only a clear physical description, but a clear description of their attitudes and actions. From this description it is clear that the Magisterial Authorities you are placing your faith in are NOT acting in harmony with God, NOT being channels for the Holy Spirit.
Your comment "Perhaps if you knew what you were talking about ... ?" is at best sarcastic. Sarcasm is a form of hate. Hate is never from God.
Gandhi wrote: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” “Of all religions, Christianity is without a doubt the one that should inspire tolerance most, although, up to now, the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men”. “The most heinous and the most cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion”.
This is the legacy of the catholic church. A legacy that continues today.
When will the Catholic Church
When will the Catholic Church get it? When will the male leaders understand the significance of this horrendous situation. A child of nine was raped and became pregnant. The man is guilty of a felony and will convicted. What he did to the innocent girl should not have to be relived everyday by the pregnancy. The position of the Church of this situation is the same as they took with the molestation of boys. Deny the morality of the action, claim religious immunity, and pretend it didn't happen. The Church explains the abortion as murder so it can maintain its philosophical detachment from the real life dilemma. What could be more immoral than a nine year old child giving birth as a rape victim? The Church's stance on abortion validates molestation, child abuse, and shows the non-existance of any compassion to the child's family or the child. This belief is not of a loving God, but a belief that God punishes even the most innocent in the name of sanctity of life. A life not born or living, but a life emerging. What kind of person would want to be born from a conception of rape and abuse? This is definitely a philosophical question to be discussed at length to ensure justice for all persons involved. If this situation happened in my family and I was excommunicated for allowing the abortion, I would welcome it because a Church preaching love and acceptance would not condemn such action.
I cannot understand this
I cannot understand this action of excommunication for this mother and doctors - it is devastating! I thought we were to "seek to understand" and - God is our judge.
I don't get the connection?
I don't get the connection? How does the ending of a completely innocent life advance Women's Ordination? Was the picture of Fr Roy thrown in for good measure, wasn't he automatically excommunicated weeks/months ago? Grace and Peace with prayers always...
Do you not understand what
Do you not understand what self righteous arrogance and hypocrisy are? If you can understand that saying one thing while doing another does not make any sense, you may have some hope. That condemning others for not doing what you want when it is obvious the desire for control overrides every other consideration, if you can understand this than you may get the "connection". The Vatican is wrong and in some cases could not be anymore wrong, ergo they cannot get the "connection". The intentional willfulness of being nescient is impossible to deal with.
I don't know who you are and
I don't know who you are and really I am not taking sides on this. I am just reading for interested but really. It is amazing how you seem to lack some sense of self-awareness. To think that the thing you are accusing the blogger ahead you of, you just spill out all over your blog. "Self-righteous, arrogant, hypocrisy... If this is they christian bloggers care about people and try to work for goodness and a Christ-filled way of doing things, I'm just not getting it. I need some more help trying to understand how someone who condemns someone for condemning others. Amazing!! Can anyone help me find some Christians?
You wrote: "If this is the
You wrote: "If this is the way christian bloggers care about people and try to work for goodness and a Christ-filled way of doing things, I'm just not getting it."
Some quotes from Gandhi that say all that needs to be said:
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
“If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all of India would be Christian today.”
“Of all religions, Christianity is without a doubt the one that should inspire tolerance most, although, up to now, the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men”
Ironic isnt it, those in the catholic church who truly practice the principles of Christ, are so often the ones who are villified, persecuted and told to "Get out of my church" by those who claim to be "truly faithful catholics".
What about the "completely
What about the "completely innocent life" of that nine year-old child? Should she have been forced to endure a pregnancy which resulted from a heinous crime? That little girl deserves dignity and respect, neither of which would result from forcing her to continue a pregnancy that could likely end her life. Alas, yours is a typical response from a "Right-to-Lifer." God forbid an abortion happen to prevent the mother's loss of life. You apparently see this little girl as disposable. It isn't her suffering with which you are concerned because you're too adamant that saving an unborn is more important than saving the life of a living, breathing human being.
articles like this in the NCR
articles like this in the NCR prove that the NCR is the twin of the "Wanderer" newspaper. They both boarder on schism, one is extreme right the other extreme left. Yet this is the Church of today. We are in a pseudo-reformation. Lines are being drawn. The right wing who have very solid and unified schismatic vision has succeeded in a true schism with the Lefeberist church. Fortunately, the left wing is so wishy-washy, all over the place, diverse, inclusive and down right laughable, that they will never truly succeed in an actual schism, they'll just become the groups they are and all over the left's theological spectrum.
It is unfortunate, though, that a publication such as the NCR which as such potential to bring true unity to the Church based on sound reporting and editorializing such as John Allen, can do better than the drivel of this article and divisive drivel it is. Do we really need more pseudo-Christian communities? Are the many protestant denominations enough? Why are those who are so dissatisfied with the Catholic Church simply leave, we're not a cult. I am sure the Episcopal Church or any of the already break away groups there are would gladly receive them and to the extent they share some beliefs of the Catholic Church, to that extent they are a part of us, but not in full communion.
Who are you to tell anyone
Who are you to tell anyone what it means to be Catholic? Or to be a pseudo-Christian? They express their religious beliefs a certain way, and prioritize certain values, and you choose a different way. If you think that being Catholic Church means blindly following the word of the pope or those of some random cardinal in Brazil, than you personify the reason that I have so many problems with religion.
Can you seriously not deal with your faith yourself? Do you need dogma to prop up your belief? Need it so badly that you ignore practical realities and condemn any person in your religion who doesn't share the same _political_ beliefs as you?
The case cited by the authors
The case cited by the authors is very sad. No one finds situations like the one this young girl found herself forced into more reprehensible than I. Nevertheless, it was not the fault of the unborn child that this was the situation in which it was conceived. By murdering an innocent, the life of this little girl was saved. But still, murder it was, and the Church's penalty for abortion is clear for all to see. In order to save the life of this poor child, they had to take the life of another. Sadly, this was not a life of an attempted murderer or rapist, or other criminal, this was the most innocent life of all: the unborn child. To lift this penalty of excommunication, all that would be necessary is for the mother and the girl(and the doctor, for that matter) to make a good confession to any priest, to express remorse for the fact that to save her life, the baby had to be aborted.
It needs to be remembered by the authors that issues of morality are not determined by civil law -- it doesn't matter what the nation of Brazil says about this particular instance of abortion -- nor by relative situations. Morality is not determined by majority rule or individual preference. Morality is determined by the only person who has the right to determine it: God. God created us and He alone has the right to tell us how we are to live the lives He gave us. He does that by giving us His Church, guided by His Holy Spirit and led by His Pope.
Finally, I would say, given the authors' affiliations, their opinions are biased against the Holy See. Clearly, since they advocate something expressly forbidden by the Holy See based on the clear and universally held understanding that Christ did not ordain women in any way, I would venture to say that they are not willing or able to see any situation from the Holy See's point of view, but rather that everything is clouded by their own unwillingness to be obedient to the truth.
Reply to "The case...": The
Reply to "The case...": The point under consideration is not obedience to the truth; the point is a consideration of what the truth is. In this case, the truth is that the Church cannot say in the same breath that women cannot image Christ (per JP II and this is the reason the Church "cannot" ordain women) and claim at the same time that it respects the dignity of women. To hold these contrary views is not only irrational, it is a sacrilege to claim that women cannot image Christ. In what sense would that be true--women cannot image Christ because they do not have the necessary genitalia? How sophomoric!! If we are all created in the image of God, then all can image Christ. To suggest otherwise is a sacrilege. If we are going to follow what Christ did literally, then we would insist that every pope be married. Sorry, my friend. The Vatican picks and chooses at will!!