The Independent News Source
NCR on Kindle - NCR classifieds - YouTube - Twitter - Facebook - Email Alerts - RSS
PDF versionControversial questions stricken from religious study
Congregation heads no longer required to supply ownership, asset, age information
Nov. 10, 2009
Mother Mary Clare Millea
U.S. women religious superiors will no longer have to supply to the Vatican some of the most controversial information it had requested as part of a three-year study of religious congregations.
Information no longer being requested as part of the Vatican Apostolic Visitation, which began last January, includes the properties owned by the congregations, their most recent financial audits, ages of the sisters, and the ministries they are involved in.
Word of the change in procedures came in a letter dated Nov. 5 sent to the women religious superiors by Apostolic Visitator Mother Mary Clare Millea.
NCR obtained a copy of the letter.
Millea explained in her letter why she had dropped the request for the information.
“Many major superiors have already addressed concerns to the Apostolic Visitation Office regarding confidentiality and protection of privileged information about their congregation, the sisters themselves and their apostolate. Although our canonical and civil advisors concur that the Apostolic See has the right to all the information contained in the questionnaire, in response to your legitimate questions, I have determined that documents number 5, 6, 7, requested in Part C of the questionnaire, are not to be submitted to the Apostolic Visitation Office as part of this visitation.”
She added that her office will return to congregation heads information already gathered regarding these subject matters.
“This change in design of the questionnaire,” Millea wrote, “was made after listening to your concerns and after considerable prayer and counsel. I have every confidence that the purpose of this phase of the Apostolic Visitation can be satisfactorily achieved with the data in Parts A, B and the first four documents listed in Part C of the questionnaire.
The Apostolic Visitation office sent questionnaires to congregation head on Sept. 18 with instructions that the information be completed and returned to the office, located in Hamden, Conn. by Nov. 20.
Millea stated documents "not to be sent" to the Apostolic Visitation Office include:
5. A list of each sister, year of birth, address and type of ministry (full time/part time)
6. A list of properties owned and/or (co)sponsored by your unit.
7. A complete copy of the most recent independent audit of your religious unit or your last internal financial statement if an external audit has not been made. This should include a statement of financial position, statement of activity, statement of changes in net assets and statement of cash flows.”
NCR: February 3-16, 2012
Subscribe to NCR to get all the news and special features that aren't always available online. In this issue:
- US News: Bishops Host Conference on Immigration
Conference fields advocates' questions on law, policy
- Special Section: Deacons. Serving as parish administrator; roles of wives; and more
- Study: Black Catholics are more engaged
New study by Notre Dame researcher about parish involvement in America
In her letter, Millea assured the women religious leaders that the information she gathers as part of the study will be treated confidentially.
“All data gathered through Parts A, B, and C of the Questionnaire, through individual correspondence, and site visits where indicated, will be treated with strict confidentiality and will be used to prepare the comprehensive report mandated by the Apostolic See. The data you send will be held in a secure place and, when no longer needed, will be returned to you or destroyed.”
Part A of the questionnaire attempts to gather objective information regarding women religious orders. The questions have been prepared with the help of the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University. An analytical report is expected to come out of these responses and it will be made public, “but will not reveal the identity of the individual institutes. It will provide a broad overview of the present reality and likely future trends of religious life in the United States.”
Part B involves some 60 subjective questions regarding vocations, governance, financial, liturgical and spiritual life within the congregations. For example, questions include the following:
- How often is the Eucharist celebrated in primary houses of the unit whether a motherhouse, formation house, retirement facility, skilled-care facility, etc.?
- Do your sisters participate in the Eucharistic liturgy according to approved liturgical norms?
- At community gatherings/celebrations (such as chapters or jubilees, etc.), is Eucharist part of the gathering/celebration? Do rituals replace celebrations of the church’s liturgy?
- Do sisters offer reflections in place of homilies by a priest (or deacon) at congregational or other Eucharistic liturgies?
- When priests attend community gatherings and celebrations, are they encouraged to concelebrate Mass?
- How does the manner of dress of your sisters, as specified in the proper law of your religious institute, bear witness to your consecration, and to the dignity and simplicity of your vocation?
- How do you, as major superior, ensure the faithful living of the vow of poverty which obliges each religious to limitation and dependence in the use of material goods?
- What procedures are in place for the effective sharing of goods within your unit (e.g. regarding budgets)?
- What is the procedure for the use and accountability of income (salaries, stipends, gifts, donations) received by the sisters?
- In what ways and how frequently are sisters who have personal patrimony permitted to use this for themselves?
From the beginning, some of the questions in Part C have caused the greatest concern among women religious, including congregation heads, who have felt the Vatican was violating privacy rights of the sisters in requesting the information. The most controversial of these have now been eliminated.
In her letter to the religious superiors, Millea thanked them for their continued cooperation and reiterated the purpose of the Apostolic Visitation, which will include site visitations to a yet undetermined number of congregations. She wrote:
“As Cardinal [Franc] Rode, [head of the Vatican office overseeing religious orders], recently stated, ‘this Apostolic Visitation hopes to encourage vocations and assure a better future for women religious.’ It offers us a valuable opportunity for prayerful and thoughtful self-examination to discern whether or not those conditions exist which foster avenues of growth and vitality in our congregations.”
A copy of the letter is here.
Thomas C. Fox is NCR editor and can be reached at tfox@ncronline.org.
All Catholics of good will as
All Catholics of good will as well as non-Catholics who are strong supporters of the work of the LCWR should keep Cardinal Rode and others in the Vatican Congregation who are conducting this witch hunt under the closest scrutiny ever applied. Nothing but full exposure of unfair treatment should be the rule. Follow the money! This investigation of these remarkable women is one of the most shameful and immoral acts the men in the Vatican have ever attempted. They need to be under a microscope just in case something smells rotten and deceitful. Do not trust their motives. They have very little honor left.
it is sad but true to say
it is sad but true to say that aging religious sisters who were in the forefront of false hopes for significant changes in some areas of church life or teaching at the time of vatican II are now close to or have retired. i say "thank you for your years of service but you have been divisive and therefore you are no longer needed...." the newer religious are more orthodox and religious life is likely to be enhanced by the current visitation.
gil marsh
grmarsh@sbcglobal.net
"thank you for your years of
"thank you for your years of service but you have been divisive and therefore you are no longer needed...." the newer religious are more orthodox and religious life is likely to be enhanced by the current visitation.
What an utterly contemptous and dismissive judgement of the life-long service these women have given to the Lord.
How do you know what kind of
How do you know what kind of "life-long service" ALL American nuns have given to the Lord? The evidence is clear that many nuns have chosen not to serve the Lord when they go against the teachings of His Church.
Nuns who support abortion, gay marriage and the like are not serving our Lord. We should not want nuns to give an example that does not support the Mission, Vision and Values of the Faith.
With this investigation the Pope is clearly saying to ALL OF US that being a "cafateria catholic" is not acceptable.
I look forward to the day when the Vatican extends the investigation to the American priests and bishops.
Phil Brady
There are bad apples in the
There are bad apples in the batch. That does not mean that all the apples are bad. Unfortunately there are religious women and men who failed their communities through their actions that are contrary to Church's teachings.God is our Judge and has the final say. I am right with God and my community and do not want to be compared to those who act contrary to the Church and that is most of the Sisters.
Sr.Cindiana
The Vatican does not support
The Vatican does not support religious orders of women nor do the dioceses in which they do their work with any monetary assistance. The Vatican, therefore, really has absolutely NO authority to investigate these orders and/or encourage dismissal of nuns from their orders because they don't uphold the irrational and self-promoting beliefs of men who entered the priesthood at age 12 or 13. Although the Church has made changes specific to the age when a man can enter the seminary, it is still run by men who have been taught by other men who had not left puberty before they entered seminary. Hopefully, there will come a day when women religious stop giving into this patriarchal mindset and live according to their own feminine goodness and wisdom. I doubt too many nuns will be found guilty of child rape and cover up as men have been found guilty of it. I'd think you'd mention that bit of moral failing in your slam against nuns.
What gives you the idea that
What gives you the idea that men enter the priesthood at 12 or 13? Vocations are not decided that young.
women have been very badly served by some nuns in the church.
For example, why on earth are women who have experienced miscarriage lumped in with women who have chosen abortion when seeking pastoral counseling for their healing? That is a horrible thing to do to women and some of us know full well that the radicals masquerading as nuns are doing that so that they can traumatize women who WANT children and promote acceptance of elective abortion as if it is just another form of miscarriage.
Unfortunately, the men on all sides of this issue are clueless, whether they are priests or not.
I couldn't agree more. We
I couldn't agree more. We keep hearing the same old, same old from these olders relgious women. It sounds like the need to fight just to fight.
Really, it's gotten old and tiring!
It is sad but true to say
It is sad but true to say that some people will always find it "divisive" when women speak.
What do you mean "divisive"?
What do you mean "divisive"? Help me understand your statement. Also...what an unkind and unchristian statement of yours: "you are no longer needed"--meaning: you gave your entire lives, served your whole life, now we dump you!
What christian gratitude and sisterly love!
The comments such as the one
The comments such as the one above are utterly contemptous. As the sister of a wonderful religious woman who gave her life to educate generaltions of Catholics, as well as a friend to many fine sisters, I find most of the comments here most unChristian, unfair and totally malicious.
When we were in school, most of us thought we had a vocation at one time or another. Which of these judgemental writers accepted that vocstion, and which ignored it because it was hard and contrary to their human desires? I am sickened by the lack of charity.
I challenge you to explain
I challenge you to explain "false hopes" - or are you assuming that all of these women religious wanted to become priests? You of course would call them "divisive" because they did not bow down to the man made orders, but instead did what St. Francis of Assisi did and Mother Theresa did - go work with the poor. Perhaps if more of the priests and the bishops and the cardinals had worked with the poor instead of working with, oh say, children and women in very unsavory ways, we would have a better church. You want orthodox - you want women who shut their minds and their mouths.
Follow the money; the Church wants the money and the property and the assets of the women religious or how else will it keep paying the money due to the abused children, male and female?
Gil, thank you for your
Gil, thank you for your "left-handed" compliment. Where dod you receive your education? Catholic school? It just so happens that the Sisters took the documents of vatican II to heart. If our retired Sisters are no longer needed, perhaps I should tell them not to pray for you! They are needed and their prayers are still valuable! Watch out!! I would invite you to check out the statistics of the "more orthodox" communities and see how many came and what percentage of them stayed. Gather all your facts before you make such a statement. I hope you are following the principles of Catholic Social Teaching for one of them addresses the "Dignity of the Human Person" and your statement about the retired Sisters is certainly not in line with this wonderful principle.
Gil Marsh, I can't imagine
Gil Marsh, I can't imagine Jesus ever saying those words to you, "Gil, you are NO longer needed..."
Unfortunately that is what the hierarchy wants to say - not only to these religious sisters, but to the all laity whom they claim "are not faithful to the Magisterium (them)" - never mind that they are faithful to the Gospel!
rawcib@juno.com
Gil, This is not a
Gil,
This is not a visitation. This is another attempt at the Roman patriarchy to exert its power over women - to "keep them in line". If they are not careful, they will find these holy women who serve us so well giving the RC Church the finger, and leaving to form their own church that doesn't need to oppress women. I hope I live to see this day dawn!
Deb Buckhout
Gil's comment may have been
Gil's comment may have been backhanded. But in all bluntness: Your comment exemplifies all that is wrong with the NCR's view of the Church. It is not about power. If the pope wanted power he would let the sisters die out. You know as well as I know that many of these sisters have unfortunately embraced the modernist heresy. It is not about keeping them in line. It is about rebuilding the sisters. Stop making this into a war on the sisters when it isn't.
Has Mr. Coday noticed this
Has Mr. Coday noticed this yet
Deb, I couldn't have said it
Deb, I couldn't have said it better myself, especially the first sentence.
To be PC in the Catholic Church today one has to be blind and obedient to the blind, pathologically disordered, intrinsically evil & act as pharisaic political henchmen in the public square, welcome & brown nose holocaust deniers of the SSPX, welcome all people who share in common a hatred for their fellow gay Catholics & women, brown-nose Pope Benedict, be a VII & Pope John XXIII hater, shut all windows to the truth & delete the truth with lies and distortions, promote this spirit of hatred and brown-nosing in the Church like a stinky deadly cesspool of a tornado.
To be PC in the Catholic Church today one must be proud to be an ass hole & sit in the pews and stay stupid & silent or be rude and arrogant and noisy with hatefulness & hurtfulness towards their neighbors, hate women who are intelligent & educated, blame others for your own failures, deny your sins, hate gays, hate people in general, hate the elderly, love pedophiles, love secrecy & deception & wars of every kind, hate devout religious women who serve God, hate the poor, love money, hate Jesus, hate the God of Love & turn Him into a god of wrath. That's an apt description for an ass hole and they most certainly love to brown nose each other. They are a brood of brown-nosing vipers!
I join you in giving them the finger, and the sooner we do, the better off we'll be and better off the world will be too.
This is really horrible. I
This is really horrible. I hope God touches and heals you. I don't find the Mass or the Church anything like you describe. Sure it's flawed, but it's filled with beauty. I think even the maligned hierarchy are human beings. Maybe it's a stretch, but doesn't it take courage to see our common humanity? Demonization of others has led to so many of the evils in the world.
I am grateful for the nuns who have been such a powerful example for me and are maligned by the culture. But I do think there's something off when a retreat center run by an order has absolutely no offerings on Christianity, as is the case in my area. Who defends Christ? His absence is in your post, but I know He is with you.
Beauty always and everywhere
Beauty always and everywhere is beautiful. Prayer, candles, sculputre, and art are beautiful in their own right. The hierarchy is human and flawed and as such need to do everything they can not to opress women. Yet they continue down the path like reactionaries out of control.
Christians often give christianity a bad name. Of late the hierarchy has been giving Catholicism a public relations nightmare.
I have found it that way for
I have found it that way for decades. Men's and women's catholic orgaizations, aided and abetted by some arch-conservative clergy where I am from have been purposefully organized for years to consistently and absolutely be hostile, mean, and demeaning to any and everyone of the Vatican II spirit. This included targeting and shouting down speakers at meetings and making personal theats to those they disagree with. They were also quite nasty to nuns.
Woman Priest Deb, I'm
Woman Priest
Deb,
I'm training as an Anglican priest in the UK. There is a church which welcomes and values women's ministry and does not need to oppress us - the Anglican church. The Pope has offered safe refuge to all those Anglican men who do not accept the ordained ministry of women. Perhaps the movement needs to be both ways?
May God bless and keep all women who are faithful to him despite the prejudice of institutional churches.
Sue
I'm not sure that the Roman
I'm not sure that the Roman Catholic church is the church any longer for women.Perhaps we should move over to the Episcopal church where women are treated as equals.
Or if you decide to hang in there then at least give your church support directly to Retirement funds for Sisters and not one penny to your bishops, the Vatican, not even your parish. I know there are some wonderful pastors and priests but let them yell at their bosses for the loss of financial support.
By all means, go jump on the
By all means, go jump on the sinking ship which is the Episcopal Church.
I'm not sure that the Roman
I'm not sure that the Roman Catholic church is the church any longer for women.Perhaps we should move over to the Episcopal church where women are treated as equals.
Or if you decide to hang in there then at least give your church support directly to Retirement funds for Sisters and not one penny to your bishops, the Vatican, not even your parish. I know there are some wonderful pastors and priests but let them yell at their bosses for the loss of financial support.
Not to be cheeky, but will
Not to be cheeky, but will this lower the tab?
Thanks for a good smile this
Thanks for a good smile this evening. :)
Of course, a well constructed
Of course, a well constructed questionnaire is as much of an opportunity for the people completing it to apply some intraspection and gain insight about themselves as much as it is for outsiders to gain information. Even if the questions in...err...question are dropped from the questionnaire, I hope the communities think hard about them simply for their own growth and benefit.
I don't know about you, Mr.
I don't know about you, Mr. Anderson, but my religious community does a revision of life every month with a day of retreat and prayer, reflection and sharing. We challenge each other in our commitment to community and vowed life. We estimate how much of our monthly stipend will be left at the end of the month so we can share it with others who need it more. We reflect together on the Word of God alive in our day-to-day reality...in our neighborhood, in the workplace. And very often we share our 'examen of conscience'...which is: each night before sleeping, we review the experiences lived during the day (people we have met or served, difficult moments, joyful moments) and we discern WHERE the Kindom of God IS in those experiences.
So, I would suggest to you and so many others who are of your opinion that most religious womens communities have and use multiple opportunities for introspection and insight. And its not even counting our weekly community meetings for other items on the agenda!
I might add that our daily 'examen of conscience' is usually done after vespers and and hours meditation together. Just for your information.
This question shows how
This question shows how threatened the ol' boys club at the Vatican really is: "Do sisters offer reflections in place of homilies by a priest (or deacon) at congregational or other Eucharistic liturgies?"
It is bad enough that Sisters have to import a priest for a Mass, a man who has no idea what the Sisters are celebrating -- just someone who shows up for duty. Further, most priests would be happy to ask a Sister to give the homily. After all, she is in the best position to speak to the hearts and minds of her community. What kind of question is this? Did Millea ask how many times the invited priest 'forgot' to be at the Sisters' Mass and left them without a Mass? Thank God, a Sister could offer a reflection.
Millea's Order, the Apostles of the Sacred Heart, in their August 2009 newsletter welcomed *one* novice who took temporary vows and *three* postulants (older women) who became novices. Their lack of vocations, should disqualify this Order to serve as a model for the congregations they investigate.
So I ask, how did Millea get the job as Grand Inquisitor?
That's 4 more vocations that
That's 4 more vocations that most LCWR orders have seen since before Kennedy was elected.
Not true Anonymous. Get the
Not true Anonymous. Get the real data not opinion
Do you "Anonymous" have proof
Do you "Anonymous" have proof that 4 vocations are more than "most LCWR orders have seen since before" 1960? I'd like to see the particulars. I'd like to see it because I know that your vicious allegation is untrue. The reason that I know it is untrue is because I entered an LCWR religious order "before President Kennedy was elected" and there were 18 postulants, 15 novices and 15 young professed. This was a small Order. Other, larger orders based in St. Louis had more than 50 postulants, and as many novices and young professed.
If it's just the lack of a
If it's just the lack of a habit and convents that have ended vocations, then why are there so few contemplatives? They have those things. Why are there so few priest? They live together in the seminaries and at rectories. Times have changed. Perhaps Christ, the author of all vocations thinks that good religious people should be in and of the world, working to accomplish His mission. But seeing that as a possiblity means you need to change your ideas. Can you rethink issues, or are you locked in the Church of your childhood?
That is absolutely positively
That is absolutely positively NOT TRUE. What an ugly vicious thing to put out there as if it were a fact---shame on you. I have been close to a women's religious community for 30 years and am now a lay associate and I can say for a fact that this community, while not having the numbers of postulants (50 plus) of the 40's, 50's and 60's, has had postulants, novices and new professed in a smaller but steady stream in the 70's and 80's, less in the 90's, but still way more than what you say in your most unChristian comment. Again, shame on you.
Praised Be Jesus Christ! Your
Praised Be Jesus Christ!
Your comment “It is bad enough that Sisters have to import a priest for a Mass, a man who has no idea what the Sisters are celebrating” is interesting. My first question would be, are you Catholic? The man you refer to here is an ordained Catholic priest, who acts in the Person of Christ at the Holy Eucharist. When you say “he has no idea what the Sisters are celebrating” shows a basic lack of formation of your own Faith. What he is celebrating is the Holy Mass, as instituted by Jesus Christ more than 2,000 years ago. The Liturgy of the Word – the proclamation of the Gospel, must be provided by an ordained minister of the Church. The question is asked in the survey to see if certain Congregations are performing valid and licit Masses. I think that the Church Magisterium just might have an interest in knowing if her consecrated Brides of Christ are conducting the Holy Mass in a dignified and proper manner.
Women religious take a vow of obedience. Saint Francis deSales makes some nice comments regarding this issue in his letters to Philothea. Instead of trying to reform the Church in their own image, change-oriented women religious might want to embrace the Church created in Christ’s image.
Frances Di Sales ( Introduction to A Devout Life, Chapter XI) on obedience
LOVE alone leads to perfection, but the three chief means for acquiring it are obedience, chastity, and poverty. Obedience is a consecration of the heart, chastity of the body, and poverty of all worldly goods to the Love and Service of God. These are the three members of the Spiritual Cross, and all three must be raised upon the fourth, which is humility. I am not going here to speak of these three virtues as solemn vows, which only concern religious, nor even as ordinary vows, although when sought under the shelter of a vow all virtues receive an enhanced grace and merit; but it is not necessary for perfection that they should be undertaken as vows, so long as they are practised diligently. The three vows solemnly taken put a man into the state of perfection, whereas a diligent observance thereof brings him to perfection. For, observe, there is a great difference between the state of perfection and perfection itself, inasmuch as all prelates and religious are in the former, although unfortunately it is too obvious that by no means all attain to the latter. Let us then endeavour to practise these three virtues, according to our several vocations, for although we are not thereby called to a state of perfection, we may attain through them to perfection itself, and of a truth we are all bound to practise them, although not all after the same manner.
There are two kinds of obedience, one necessary, the other voluntary. The first includes a humble obedience to your ecclesiastical superiors, whether Pope, Bishop, Curate, or those commissioned by them. You are likewise bound to obey your civil superiors, king and magistrates; as also your domestic superiors, father, mother, master or mistress. Such obedience is called necessary, because no one can free himself from the duty of obeying these superiors, God having appointed them severally to bear rule over us. Therefore do you obey their commands as of right, but if you would be perfect, follow their counsels, and even 178 their wishes as far as charity and prudence will allow: obey as to things acceptable; as when they bid you eat, or take recreation, for although there may be no great virtue in obedience in such a case, there is great harm in disobedience. Obey in things indifferent, as concerning questions of dress, coming and going, singing or keeping silence, for herein is a very laudable obedience. Obey in things hard, disagreeable and inconvenient, and therein lies a very perfect obedience.
A good meditation for the day perhapse, for all of us.
I would think if the sisters
I would think if the sisters were having a Mass a priest would be present since there cannot be a Mass without one so if the Mass isn't going according to the rules might not the priest be the one at fault? If the sisters are just having a prayer service then why does a priest have to be present?
As far as the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience go, I think with the way you are speaking, every Catholic should vow to do these. Why some but not others? Aren't we all called to perfection? But I don't remember Jesus saying anyone had to take vows for these. In fact he said we should not swear to anything at all.
Thank you Patrick. Every time
Thank you Patrick. Every time in Mass when we say, "We believe in the one, holy, Catholic, and APOSTOLIC Church," I wonder if people really think about what they're saying. To be truly Catholic, you would have to mean every word in the creed. Some of these other people obviously do not.
The Pope and Cardinals are not out to get us. I wish people could see that, and realize that they are actually not smarter than the Church.
I can't stand dissenting nuns.
Katie the creed is "for us
Katie the creed is "for us men and our salvation." We of the real orthopraxis ie the patriarchal RCC worthy of your subserviant praise can't stand you cause your, as the great Dr. and heroe of the RCC, St. Thomas Aquinas says, a defective female. So, cover your head like a proper little catholic girl and be silent.
Katie, what is your
Katie, what is your definition of a dissenting nun? Don't you know that the 'nuns' are NOT being investigated or audited? It is the religious sisters who are doing "APOSTOLIC" ministries who are being audited, not the nuns.
"I can't stand dissenting
"I can't stand dissenting nuns."
Kaitie, I think what you might really mean is, "I can't stand the opinions of dissenting nuns." We are called to seperate the supposed sin from the sinner.
That distinction is very very traditional.
And you separate the sin from
And you separate the sin from the sinner? Who said that there was any sin involved here? Do you have some inside info that the rest of us aren't in on? As the sister of a religious who has taught our children for over 50 years with little thanks, I am curious as to how some of you people came to be part of this inquisition.
Read your Church History and
Read your Church History and you will see that the vow of obedience led to many horror stories. Obedience to the gospel life of Jesus, not to the wealthy Vatican and the richly clad and royal titles of the hierarchy.
OMG, Patrick! Where did all
OMG, Patrick! Where did all you orthodox freaks come from? And how dare you try to claim the word "Catholic" only for your uptight, rule-bound selves! Last time I read about the actual "persona Christi", he wasn't worried about what people were wearing and how many times they bowed and blew incense around an altar (or even, God forbid, if they were of the "correct" gender)....
Geesh! How about relating to real people through the real situations? Now THAT'S what sacraments are all about!
Go be obedient to Jesus and not to all the superimposed rubrics and hierarchs. Grow up!
Hi Sheila, you seem to be
Hi Sheila, you seem to be angry with the Church Christ gave to you and I. Why? Did the ‘church; hurt you or someone you love? As far as being an orthodox freak, I say thank you. Obedience to God is a priority for me. Christ said to Peter, what you bind on earth shall be bound. You may not want to second guess Jesus.
The hierarchy of the Church is required. It is a gift from God and should be accepted with thanks and humility. If we each did what we wanted and praised God in our own Modern way… well, that would be called…. Protestantism.
Peace be with you. Remember me in your prayers.
Hi Patrick, please don't
Hi Patrick, please don't overlook Matthew 18:18, which carries equal weight with Matthew 16:19.
"The hierarchy of the Church...should be accepted with thanks and humility." Don't confuse being a doormat with obedience. They're not the same.
Humility ultimately means standing firmly on solid ground. It means recognizing and dealing with reality --- like, ah, fer instance, remembering the lies, deceit, arrogance, coverups, ad nauseum of our hierarchs. It means demanding accountability and transparency. It means holding the bishops to live the message they're so good at preaching.
By the way, what do you mean by your reference to "the Church"?
Hi Patrick: You seem quite
Hi Patrick: You seem quite the sardonic smug guy.
The church makes up a lot of baloney and indoctrinates the weak and innocent to believe that anything it says goes. The media, the scientists, professors, the vast majority of middleclass college educated men and women etc., know a lot of what is true and false in church history.
The church hid priest pedaphiles so that they could prey somewhere else. The latter demonstates how far down the line the priority of Jesus really is. So, if I were you I would not smugly tell someone not to second guess Jesus as if your attitude about orthodoxy is absolute Truth.
Research, history, science, experience, tell a different truth one that is verifiable, objective, non judgemental etc.
No doubt,the priest pedaphile cases were great sins against Christ but evidently not great sins to the church. That is why Cardinal Law was given a promotion in Rome and not a jail sentence in the US
Bottom line we learn from experience that we must be wise as serpents when following the institutional church and as innocent as lambs when following Jesus.
May the Peace of Christ be with you and offer you His True and Holy Redemption.
Patrick in New Jersey on Nov.
Patrick in New Jersey on Nov. 11, 2009.
You stated:
"Praised Be Jesus Christ!
Your comment “It is bad enough that Sisters have to import a priest for a Mass, a man who has no idea what the Sisters are celebrating” is interesting. My first question would be, are you Catholic?..."
-------------------------------------------
Now that you are done pontificating about what this Sister meant and accusing her of not being 'Catholic', let me explicate what was really meant in the commentary that you were trying (and failing badly) to respond to.
Years and years ago, most religious communities had a priest assigned to their motherhouses as a chaplain. This priest was either retired or semi-retired. He KNEW the Sisters who lived there by name. He tried to learn the names of the other Sisters who were out on the missions. He understood the 'seasons of life' within a Province---its times of chapters, jubilees, investures, professions of vows, funerals, religious practices during the times of Advent and Lent, etc. The chaplain participated in the life of the religious congregation and understood.
That situation is not the case now in many dioceses. Religous women often do not have a chaplain assigned to their motherhouses. When as special occasion to the Sisters does occur---a priest, who does not know the Sisters, the traditions of the congregation, or the special occasion---is often called in.
Secondly, the Sisters profess vows according to the Rule of life that they follow AND according to the Constitutions (approved by Rome, by the way) that their congregation follows. And this is it, plain and simple.
After reading your long reference to St. Francis de Sales---I can only say that I'm glad that you read it and are getting a Saint's perspective on his understanding of the Way to Perfection. But the Sister that you are preaching to, has followed the way of perfection all her life---she has the wisdom of practical life experience---and that trumps book knowledge every time.
LittleBear, I could not
LittleBear, I could not agree more with you. As a member of a religious order of brothers we always have to invite a priest for Mass (funerals, vows, jubilees, and other Congregation and Province celebrations). Luckily there are many fine and wonderful priests in the United States. In fact there are several former members of my congregation that have gone on to become diocesan priests (and they do know our history, way of life, etc.) I would, however, like to share one story that typifies your point to our friend of St. Francis de Sales:
In 2002 my Congregation celebrated the 200th anniversary of our founding. There was a grand Mass celebrated in one of the largest diocese in the United States and representatives from each of our 31 ministry sites had been invited. We minister in California, Florida, Illinois, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, and Texas. The Mass to begin our celebration was organized by a committee of our brothers (and required by the diocese the Mass was to be celebrated in to have "the Bishop" as the homilist). The opening words of the Bishops homily showed how little he know and/or prepared for this once in a lifetime event for us... ...he began to speak about another religious order of brothers! It was painful.
Stories like this are why I do not see the harm in a priest/Bishop/Cardinal deferring to a highly educated, dedicated Catholic sister or brother in these very specific situations to reflect on the importance to the community.
Just my thoughts...
Little Bear, can you ever
Little Bear, can you ever argue rationally without personal attacks? The second, third and fourth paragraphs of your response to Patrick from New Jersey are correct. In your last paragraph you make foolish assumptions. You do not know whether the Sister to whom Patrick is addressing has followed the way of perfection all her life. You also do not know whether Patrick only has book knowledge. He sounds as if he has not only book knowledge but practical life experience. He sounds like a very good and orthodox Catholic. Why do you always get so mean-spirited with those who have a different viewpoint from you? What will you do when dissent (and it will inevitably come) enters into your proposed church?
Milbo 1 on Nov. 16, 2009. In
Milbo 1 on Nov. 16, 2009.
In your last paragraph you make foolish assumptions. You do not know whether the Sister to whom Patrick is addressing has followed the way of perfection all her life. You also do not know whether Patrick only has book knowledge. He sounds as if he has not only book knowledge but practical life experience. He sounds like a very good and orthodox Catholic. Why do you always get so mean-spirited with those who have a different viewpoint from you? What will you do when dissent (and it will inevitably come) enters into your proposed church?
----------------------------------
And do you know for sure that this Sister has NOT been following the way to perfection?
As far as determining whether Patrick has only book knowledge or not, after teaching young people for over 50 years---I think I know a young person when he/she writes something.
LittleBear, I do not know
LittleBear, I do not know whether this Sister has or has not been following the way to perfection. Therefore, I never made any assumption one way or the other. An intelligent person knows when he/she doesn't know. How do you know Patrick is young? Am I young or old? Even if Patrick is young, you should know as a teacher that you can never stereotype anyone. Perhaps after 50 years, it is time to throw the towel in. You have obviously become very intolerant of anyone who disagrees with you. Start devoting your energies to that church of yours. Better yet, I suggest, my dear friend, that you strive to save your soul. Also, please pray for me and be assured of my prayers for you.
Patrick in New Jersey
Patrick in New Jersey said:
"Your comment 'It is bad enough that Sisters have to import a priest for a Mass, a man who has no idea what the Sisters are celebrating' is interesting."
---
"My first question would be, are you Catholic?"
My first answer is Yes.
---
"The man you refer to here is an ordained Catholic priest, who acts in the Person of Christ at the Holy Eucharist. When you say “he has no idea what the Sisters are celebrating” shows a basic lack of formation of your own Faith."
Yes, Patrick, two degrees from a Catholic University, and a Licentiate in Theology, plus 28 retreats, Spiritual Direction, Pastoral Education -- I agree just do not help the formation of one's own faith. (?)
---
"What he is celebrating is the Holy Mass, as instituted by Jesus Christ more than 2,000 years ago. The Liturgy of the Word – the proclamation of the Gospel, must be provided by an ordained minister of the Church."
The Liturgy of the Word: First Reading, Psalm, Second Reading are proclaimed by lay people. The Gospel is usually proclaimed by a priest or deacon.
---
"The question is asked in the survey to see if certain Congregations are performing valid and licit Masses."
The 'Mass' that Jesus celebrated at the Last Supper was not considered "valid or licit" by the Jewish authorities, as Jesus was Jewish at the time. Does that mean that Jesus should not have changed the wording of the Seder and given those words to us to celebrate and cherish forever?
Sisters don't want to give
Sisters don't want to give the homlies tehmesleves neccesarily
but ANY strategy to get most priests to STOP
giving boring, long, irrelevant, homilies would be worth the effort...
Sr. Milea's order operates in
Sr. Milea's order operates in my area of Connecticut. They have been in charge of teen groups and confirmation classes at my parish and those nearby. They do a GREAT job. It is very refreshing to see in a blue-collar parish a large number teenagers in the congregation, many of whom are there of their own accord and not sitting next to their parents.
Just fyi, it is often the case that priests who say masses at convents also hear confessions, and most nuns are not the once a year sort of penitents. Such priests often do have a fairly good idea of what may be going on in the convent and what is troubling the hearts and minds of the sisters.
...and you know about these
...and you know about these confessions because??? Isn't this a "sealed" issue?
maybe she was on the line
maybe she was on the line behind them?
Here's a question for you,
Here's a question for you, Rodé: How many Cardinals and Archbishops are guilty of ruining forever the lives of innocent children and families because these chief shepherds knowingly placed pedophiles in parishes where they would have access to Catholic youth?
In what ways and how
In what ways and how frequently are sisters who have personal patrimony permitted to use this for themselves?
As I understand it, while religious take a vow of poverty, priests do not. THAT needs to be changed. By "personal patrimony" I assume they mean personal inheritances of the sisters, and if so, I wonder if the hierarchy wants some of it to compensate for monies paid to victims of clergy sexual abuse. I don't think such a thing is what early Christians had in mind when they lived communally and shared all goods. Very careful scrutiny of the "visitation" is certainly called for when dealing with a somewhat warped Catholic hierarchy.
Priests and religious
Priests and religious brothers take a vow of poverty. There are women in Opus Dei who make promises of celibacy but not of poverty. The concept you are describing already exists.
Oops! I meant that brothers
Oops! I meant that brothers and religious priests take a vow of poverty.
John, I am glad you corrected
John, I am glad you corrected yourself. As a religious brother I am often offended when a diocesan priest tells the congregation, or mentions in a letter that he takes a vow of poverty. Last time I check, at least in the United States, all diocesan priests paid taxes to the Federal Government because they get paid. As religious (sisters, brothers, or priests) who take at minimum the 3 evangelical counsels (vows) we are freed from these "activities" (sorry couldn't think of a better word) to serve those most in need, those at the margins, and to follow the charism of our founders. Where as a diocesan priest has very specific obligations to the parish, or other ministry with in the diocese, that he has been assigned.
John, I am glad you corrected
John, I am glad you corrected yourself. As a religious brother I am often offended when a diocesan priest tells the congregation, or mentions in a letter that he takes a vow of poverty. Last time I check, at least in the United States, all diocesan priests paid taxes to the Federal Government because they get paid. As religious (sisters, brothers, or priests) who take at minimum the 3 evangelical counsels (vows) we are freed from these "activities" (sorry couldn't think of a better word) to serve those most in need, those at the margins, and to follow the charism of our founders. Where as a diocesan priest has very specific obligations to the parish, or other ministry with in the diocese, that he has been assigned.
Priests in religious orders
Priests in religious orders take a vow of poverty. Diocesan Priests do NOT take such a vow. This was rule left over from a time over 1000 years ago when Latin rite Diocesan Priests could be married and needed to support a family.
Benedict's pontificate is
Benedict's pontificate is dedicated to take the church backwards. In his scholarly Bubble, this inexperienced pastoral leader wants to undo Vatican II and devide the US church into the church of the pretenders (have a lot to say, quick to judge others and behave like immoral pigs )and those of the faithful who really live their faith day to each grueling day. I read about the new English version of the bible. It is an afront to the English speakers of the world. How many more ways will Benedict find to offend???
Carman K: "In his scholarly
Carman K: "In his scholarly bubble...." Good concept. I have asked myself many times how can a person of such intelligence but so wrong, so often. One thought is that he suffers from a majpr "scotosis", reading your post leads me to another- he does not see that anyone else has an intellect...oh heck, that's also a scotosis.
On April 17, 2008, Pope
On April 17, 2008, Pope Benedict XVI spoke in Washington, DC, and offered a challenge to American Catholics re: inclusion, and the lack thereof, with respect to social processes. What have you done about what the Pontiff said?
Please name one thing he has
Please name one thing he has done that has "undone" Vatican II. As usual the same rules apply. 1. It must be something concrete, not a rumor spread on the NCR. 2. It must go against something actually said by the Council--not the "spirit of the council (whatever that means)" and not someones false interpretation.
Oh, I don't know, why not ask
Oh, I don't know, why not ask Friar Boff for starters, and the Reverend Father Hans Kung, and the Reverend Father Edward Schillebeeckx, and a bunch of other guys who were actual, you know, LEADERS at the SEocnd Vatican Council . . .
For starters . . .
These questions reflect an
These questions reflect an attitude toward women that is patronizing, offensive and at least psychologically abusive. Change some of the wordings and contexts and they could be questions parents ask teenagers. What must it be like to be a sister in the Vatican to be under the intrusive gaze of these Cardinals---Levada, Law, and the other Americans? Why not just hire an agency like Kroll Associates to do this investigation--there's nothing spiritual about any of this. And of course secrecy still holds, these men are surrounded by secrets. They lead a life of secrets from the top on down, especially secrets about themselves.
Post new comment