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Bishop: 'Schneiders' analysis inspiring, challenging'
Natural tension between religious, who live as prophets, and hierarchical leadership
Jan. 11, 2010
Bishop Kevin Dowling (CNS photo)
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PDF versionAs a religious, who happens to be called to ministry and service as a bishop in the church and world, I have reflected with attention on the five articles of Immaculate Heart of Mary Sister Sandra Schneiders, my sister in religious life. I want to express my gratitude and appreciation for her courageous, faith-filled and insightful analysis and reflection upon crucial issues which are at the heart of the prophetic call and mission of religious in the church and world of today.
She raises difficult questions and shares her viewpoint with what I believe is integrity and honesty, and whether one agrees with her or not, the essential invitation in what she has written is to reflect prayerfully and in a discerning spirit upon what God may be saying to each of us who reads her reflections.
Even if we disagree with her, we still need to ask with honesty: what value, what gospel value, is she trying to express in what she writes? Even if one has a different opinion to hers, one can try to understand her articulation of what she believes is in accord with the gospel of Jesus. Perhaps I can then grow in my own calling – and that, in the end, is what really matters.
The wide range of comments, some harsh and even vitriolic, some articulating a similar perspective, some expressing the struggle and pain of searching people, are in themselves important to consider. That there can be such a difference of opinion and approach is, on the one hand, a mirror of the complex world and society in which we live and of the pilgrim church and its members immersed in that reality.
On the other hand, such difference and even division requires deeper analysis because I think it goes to the heart of the question: just what is our fundamental faith-vision of God, who is this “God” for me/us, and as a consequence what kind of church should we be in any era of our historical journey with Jesus, our leader and mentor?
For me, Sister Schneiders has articulated a comprehensive, inspiring and very challenging vision of the essentially prophetic nature of the calling and mission of the religious life, incarnated as it must be in the complex socio-economic, cultural and political reality of modern times. She has also clearly demonstrated its fundamental difference to that other calling and ministry within the church, hierarchical leadership and service.
I deliberately use those two words “leadership” and “service” because that is what I believe should be the experience or feeling of any person who encounters a bishop like me, or the hierarchy as a whole. My own experience of my life and ministry as a bishop for the past 19 years has led me ever more deeply to the realization and profound belief that people need to hear Jesus’ words in my human words, that people need and should only experience in me and all I do the presence of a loving, compassionate God who is deeply one with them in their total context of life, sometimes/often a “mess”, and who walks with them so that they may gradually find that his desire for them is true, viz. that they may have “life, and life in abundance” (cf. John 10:10).
This is Jesus’ challenge to me as a bishop, I believe. In this I, personally, cannot find any place or reason for the use of power and control over people on my part, for a presumption that I have all the answers to extremely complex human realities and experiences which absolutely degrade the dignity of people made in God’s image, and especially the poorest and most vulnerable “little ones” of the diverse societies which make up our church and world.
For me there can be no place for domination and power in such a reality which I know so well from my own context of the appalling poverty and misery of so many in dreadful shack settlements. Domination and power would only reflect a very different vision to the God whom I believe Jesus revealed (the God articulated so well by Sister Schneiders), and to the values of the gospel which should be the fundamental and only norm for me in my calling and mission as a bishop.
I believe hierarchical leadership and service today, as always, should be characterised by a humble, trusting, and searching relationship with all the People of God, empowering and affirming the gifts of the Spirit in every person and, together with all the People of God, ministering with a passion to transform the degrading reality of the “little ones” of our world.
There will naturally be tension in different forms/ways between religious who are striving to live their prophetic calling in very diverse socio-economic-cultural contexts - and hierarchical leadership and service which should invite, encourage and promote coordination, subsidiarity and collaboration between all the different callings in the church, including that of religious and of the lay faithful.
All the key principles of Catholic social teaching (or doctrine) are equally applicable and relevant to the internal life of the church community and how it functions in practice, as for the reality and life “out there” in the socio-political world as it is.
I think it is a mistake to think that different expressions of life and ministry (in all aspects) between religious and hierarchical leadership and service can or should be controlled and brought into uniformity which is deemed orthodox by those who have authority in the church, viz. the hierarchy. That would be to potentially stifle the Spirit and the workings of the Spirit.
After all, most of the differences and divisions being discussed in these articles are not about defined doctrine as such, but about “opinions” or “understandings” concerning pastoral policies, the vision, theology and ecclesiology of Vatican II, ethical and moral approaches to complex questions and so forth. There can be legitimate and different “opinions” at the level of the Vatican dicasteries, conferences of bishops, individual bishops, communities of religious and lay faithful. And there can be such a thing in the church as loyal dissent.
Tensions and differences should be expected among thinking Catholics, therefore, but they should be managed by people who follow, not the route of power and control, but the way of discernment in the Spirit. Then all those concerned will consciously allow God to be God, and be open to recognizing the “fruits” and that “by their fruits you will know them”. This calls for a respectful encounter between religious and hierarchy, with a conscious commitment to listening to what is deeper than the words, to what God may be saying through the other.
And in the end, the vital importance of conscience needs to be addressed with reverence. I believe one can do no better than reflect on the words of the then Father Ratzinger in his capacity as theological adviser to the Second Vatican Council:
(Joseph Ratzinger in: Commentary on the Documents of Vatican II ,Vol. V., pg. 134 (Ed) H. Vorgrimler, New York, Herder and Herder, 1967).
Redemptorist Bishop Kevin Dowling is the bishop of Rustenburg, South Africa.
It is quite refreshing to
It is quite refreshing to read Bishop Dowling's respnse to sister Sandra Schneiders writing on the role of religious life.
It is the very first one I read from a Bishop. My impression is that bishops speak so much more candidly AFTER their resignation when they have nothing to lose.
Thank you to Bishop Dowling.
On a very quick first reading
On a very quick first reading of Bishop Kevin Dowling's remarks on Sandra Schneider's five part essay, I have to say that it is interesting that these very honest reflections are from a South African bishop, also a Redemptorist, and not from one of our own bishops here in the United States.
I will have to reflect more on this before reflecting of what the possible significance this may have but it reminds me of what Australian's Bishop Geoffrey Robinson had to say on the topic of his book, "Confronting Power and Sex in the Catholic Church" during his U.S. speaking tour which began at Philadelphia's Temple University, the video tape of which can be viewed at:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=151187295790093121&hl=en#
It does remind me of Robinson's honest reflections on the church's structural flaws, the flaws within the hierarchial system itself and more recently of the honest words and actions of Ireland's Archbishop Diarmuid Martin of Dublin.
All three have acted with an integrity of character in their honest criticism of a system with serious endemic and systemic problems, things that have not been dealt with at all by our bishops either individually or collectively through the USCCB.
Sister Maureen Paul Turlish SNDdeN
maureenpaulturlish@yahoo.com
I hardly think Pope Benedict
I hardly think Pope Benedict would think the Apostolic Visitation is a totalitarian act, especially in light of the fact that religious life among Sister Sandra Scheiders' community and many other religious communities of women in the U.S. are on the verge of extinction.
Moreover, I think it very interesting that the NCR had to go all the way to South Africa to find a bishop, and a renegade bishop whose future as an ordinary is already on shaky ground at that, to support Sister Sandra's series.
I think that NCR was looking
I think that NCR was looking for a response from a bishop who was also a religious. There aren't very many of these.
The verge-of-extinction religious orders are readjusting to the times. In the US anyway, there were far to many branches of religious orders anyway. Most of these were formed during the 19th c and first half of the 320th, responding to immigration and high birth rates; both of these have ceased. For example, there are 46 houses of Benedictine women in the US--too, too many. There are many active Dominicans, tho' many of these have merged, and many Franciscans.
There are only a few orders actively growing. All wear habits and teach or evangelize the young. There are many other habited orders that aren't growing at all and many of these have only a few in formation. Many of these orders also have few final professions, which are the only thing that matters. The truth is that there aren't a lot of women in the US entering religious life, at least not making final profession.
Aren't very many religious
Aren't very many religious order bishops in the U.S.? Hmmm. How about Archbishop Charles Chaput and Cardinal Sean O'Malley? You think the NCR would be interested in asking them what they think about Sister Sandra's series? I doubt it.
The only orders that are consistently and actively growing are those who are faithful to the essential elements of religious life as defined by the Church. Adjustment or not by the others, they will eventually die.
Bishops who are religious,
Bishops who are religious, among others: Cardinal George, the president of the USCCB; Cardinal O'Malley of Boston, Bishop Jenky of Peroia...and more.
"Many of these orders also
"Many of these orders also have few final professions, which are the only thing that matters."
Seriously? That is such a...well, male...way of looking at things. Like the 'final count'? This is strange to the point of being interesting. What about those years before final profession--the spiritual life and (hopefully) growth of the individual, of the community, of the mission, of those who received and gave? This is just waste?
TNCath on Jan. 11, 2010. You
TNCath on Jan. 11, 2010.
You stated:
"I hardly think Pope Benedict would think the Apostolic Visitation is a totalitarian act, especially in light of the fact that religious life among Sister Sandra Scheiders' community and many other religious communities of women in the U.S. are on the verge of extinction.
Moreover, I think it very interesting that the NCR had to go all the way to South Africa to find a bishop, and a renegade bishop whose future as an ordinary is already on shaky ground at that, to support Sister Sandra's series."
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The very fact that the results of this visitation are being kept secret---the 'helpfulness' of the visitation are highly suspect.
Secondly, from what authoritive individual did you get the verification that
this bishop is a 'renegade' and a 'failure as an ordinary'? It is God who decides who is a failure and who is a success.
Hey TN:
Hey TN: to⋅tal⋅i⋅tar⋅i⋅an /toʊˌtælɪˈtɛəriən/
–adjective 1. of or pertaining to a centralized government that does not tolerate parties of differing opinion and that exercises dictatorial control over many aspects of life.
2. exercising control over the freedom, will, or thought of others; authoritarian; autocratic
Though you "hardly think it" the above definition "fits" the little red slippers B16 wears.
Additionally since you believe in "my way or the hiway Catholicism" you could always just hit the road.
No, it's the Pope's way or
No, it's the Pope's way or the highway, and, no, I will not have to hit the road. If I do, it will be with the Pope driving.
Well good then. Since you
Well good then. Since you will be driving on "toll-talitarian" hiways be sure to get out the doe for the money changers.
BTW Jesus is at the airport catching the first flight out on HS (Holy Spirit) Air with His close friends, the orphan's in the market, who have all turned so blue from piping they look like Smurfs.
They wants to know where you guys are headed so they can go the other way.
TNCath on Jan. 12, 2010. You
TNCath on Jan. 12, 2010.
You stated:
"No, it's the Pope's way or the highway, and, no, I will not have to hit the road. If I do, it will be with the Pope driving."
--------------------------------
Fine. I hope you like going backward, because Benedict likes to drive looking into his rearview mirror and moving in the direction that he sees.
Oh, so true!
Oh, so true!
As C.S. Lewis pointed out:
As C.S. Lewis pointed out: “We all want progress, but if you're on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive.”
Well, if this a a "renegade
Well, if this a a "renegade bishop", let's have more of them! With a bishop like Bishop Dowling, one can do "business".
You do have to go a long ways
You do have to go a long ways to find a pastoral bishop these days, the kind you'd like to sit down with and get to know.
Oh I dunno. South Africa
Oh I dunno. South Africa isn't all that far to go to find a bishop to comment, in a church that now goes all that way back to the 16th century to find a missal to use!
For sure!
For sure!
Funny, the missal I use
Funny, the missal I use (printed last year) has a rather modern date in it: 1962.
In reply to TNCath, and as a
In reply to TNCath, and as a priest of good standing in South Africa, I am distressed at the description of Bishop Dowling as a "renegade" bishop. He most certainly is not, and we in South Africa have the greatest regard for him. I think that the commandment "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour" is applicable here.
Father Joseph, Any bishop who
Father Joseph,
Any bishop who publicly disagrees with the Holy Father certainly comes across as a renegade. Perhaps you would prefer a better term such as "maverick" or "prophet"?
I am not surprised that you and many in South Africa have high regard for this man. I just feel sorry for the man who has to come after Bishop Dowling to clean up the mess he will leave behind and deal with those of you who found this man such a blessing to the Church
Was Paul a renegade when he
Was Paul a renegade when he publicly disagreed with Peter? (Gal 2.11)
Or no?
TNCath on Jan. 13, 2010.
TNCath on Jan. 13, 2010.
You stated:
"Father Joseph,
Any bishop who publicly disagrees with the Holy Father certainly comes across as a renegade. Perhaps you would prefer a better term such as "maverick" or "prophet"?
I am not surprised that you and many in South Africa have high regard for this man. I just feel sorry for the man who has to come after Bishop Dowling to clean up the mess he will leave behind and deal with those of you who found this man such a blessing to the Church."
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In your opinion, bishops, priests, and laity are all to be 'cookie-cutter' alike. It has been an insidious thrust by Joseph Ratzinger for years to diminish and eliminate altogether, any type of 'pluristic' ideas. He totally believes in ecclesial totalitariansim. It is frightening, but an accurate accessment of his position.
Our Church, throughout its history, has grown and improved, when pluralism was permitted and encouraged. Bishop Dowling is to be commended for his courage in thinking, speaking, and writing outside of "the suffocating box" into which our current Pope and his drones have attempted to place the Church.
No, not "cookie-cutter";
No, not "cookie-cutter"; rather, supportive and obedient as the bishop promised when he was ordained a priest and bishop.
TNCath on Jan. 18, 2010. You
TNCath on Jan. 18, 2010.
You stated:
"No, not "cookie-cutter"; rather, supportive and obedient as the bishop promised when he was ordained a priest and bishop."
----------------------------------------
Apparently your idea of being 'obedient' and my idea of obedience are at odds.
Being obedient does not mean professing obedience like that in the 'three monkey mode---see nothing, hear nothing, say nothing.'
While Vatican Council II's 'Declaration on Religious Freedom" was directed primarily to civil authorities; it has unmistakable implications for the Church's own inner life and operations. The same respect, forebearance, and freedom to search for truth that the Church demands from civil governments toward it, must be shown within the Church itself, toward its own people---laity and clergy.
If priests, bishops and cardinals had spoken up more quickly and without fear of retaliation from 'higher ups,' we would not have had half of the problems that we had in our Church's history. We would, certainly not have had the sexual abuse scandals in our nation and in others, if clerics, bishops had spoken up when they saw the sins/crimes being committed. Instead, too many looked away and said nothing. That is not being obedient to the Gospel of Jesus, who taught and commanded Servant Leadership (Mark 10:42-45).
If our people, religious and laity, deacons, priests, and bishops are denied their right to speak out against CONTROL, INJUSTICE---if gags are placed in their mouths---because those in the highest rungs of authority----just don't want to hear anyone but themselves---then we end up with a TOXIC RELIGION. We actually do have cardinals in Vatican dicasteries who cannot tolerate any form of criticism (even if given mildly). They actually believe that those who give the criticism hate the Church.
And when criticism comes from within the Church---then it must be governed by the Judeo-Christian values and criteria, of truth, love, justice and fairness. And I believe that Bishop Kevin has certainly honored those values in his remarks.
[The faithful] have the
[The faithful] have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ's faithful...
Canon 212.3
Dear TN Cath, I share your
Dear TN Cath, I share your comments and have a couple of my own. The Bishop in his own words commented on the vitriolic wording of Sandra's positions. Don't we all use only the "positive" we see when trying to express a point? Sandra is a Women's Libber as are all of her supporters and unfortunately they use lying as a means. The Church Hierarchy as a body are not about Power and Money as has been expressed so often! The LCWR which is made up of approximately 54,000 of the 59,000 Nuns in this country will be down to a number of less than 25,000 Nuns within the next 20 years and yet the various Religious Orders are questioning this Visitation? Would the LCWR rather they wait until there are fewer than 5000 Nuns before action is taken? We should all thank God that He has taken charge of this crisis!
Thank you Bishop Dowling. I
Thank you Bishop Dowling.
I wonder if we will read the same wonderful, thoughtful comments from our Bishops in the USA.
This is the key. "I think it
This is the key. "I think it is a mistake to think that different expressions of life and ministry (in all aspects) between religious and hierarchical leadership and service can or should be controlled and brought into uniformity which is deemed orthodox by those who have authority in the church, viz. the hierarchy. That would be to potentially stifle the Spirit and the workings of the Spirit."
Thank you for your commentary. Would that the majority of the bishops and cardinals thought this way. What is coming down in the gradual reversal of Vatican II and liturgical renewal doesn't make us hopeful.
I feel I could sit down with
I feel I could sit down with this bishop and discuss with honesty any issue/questions I have about God and the Church. I had two priest friends in Alabama and one in North Caroline with whom I could have exciting and challenging discussions. I did not experience this in the Lexington Diocese of Kentucky. It seemed there was always a "witch hunt" going on and great care had to be made with whomever one discussed ANYTHING. I pray there will be a day the bishops are not intimidated by Rome. A day our priests and bishops will be free enough to allow others to discuss their disagreements and just maybe change their minds. A day when there are no witch hunts. A day when we can all be as real as we are and talk with these people as if talking with Jesus. No arguing. Just genuine disscussing. Amen.
Right on!
Right on!
Amen to Bishop Kevin Dowling!
Amen to Bishop Kevin Dowling! Great integrity, great faith, wonderful! The Roman Catholic Church is so blessed to have you as bishop!
Bishop Kevin Dowling truly expresses Gospel values and is authentic to the teachings and example of Jesus. I wish Bishop Dowling could become the next pope. The Roman Catholic Church needs healing and to return to Gospel values, to the teachings and example of Jesus.
Adhering to one's own "bound
Adhering to one's own "bound conscience" does not thereby make one Pope, Catholic or even Christian, even in one's own heart-felt opposition to the Papacy, Roman Catholicism or Christianity.
I can call myself 'Catholic' all I want. I am free to do that. The Church also has freedom - the freedom not to recognize me as 'Catholic' and even throw me out.
It's funny how much emphasis
It's funny how much emphasis is placed on the idea of the church's "right" to throw people out. Do you know how rare such an act actually is? Given the number of Catholics in the world, it is really a bit outlandish to pretend that it is about to happen to anyone who thinks a thought. A good laugh this evening!
Oh, BTW, there is that indelible mark of baptism that the church does not control even in this frightening church you laud....
Mark Andrews on Jan. 11,
Mark Andrews on Jan. 11, 2010.
You stated:
"Adhering to one's own "bound conscience" does not thereby make one Pope, Catholic or even Christian, even in one's own heart-felt opposition to the Papacy, Roman Catholicism or Christianity.
I can call myself 'Catholic' all I want. I am free to do that. The Church also has freedom - the freedom not to recognize me as 'Catholic' and even throw me out."
------------------------------------
Sorry, but even great teachers of the Church like Thomas Aquinas taught that one should even risk excommunication rather than violate one's conscience.
It is a teaching found in canon law that there must not be: incursions of domination, depotism, coercion, intimidation and control that stifles the Spirit.
St. Paul refers to the freedom won for us by Christ several times in stating:
"For freedom Christ has se us free; so stand firm and do not again submit to the youke of slavery" (Gal: 5-1). Paul referred to freedom from the Mosaic law, from sin, and from death. "The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and dathe" (Rom. 8:2). The presence of the Holy Spirit guarantees Christian freedom. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom" (2 Cor. 3:17).
All of the created universe will one day share in an eschatological liberation. "For creation awaits with eager expectation the revelation of the children of God...in hope that creation itself would be set free from slavery to corruption and share in the glorious freedom of the children of God" (Rom 8:19-21). For Paul, then, the Christian vocation is a call to liberty, being led by the Spirit in life and actions, freed from the constant constraint of extrinsic forces or norms.
Freedom is central to the new law, the law of grace, It is not only freedom from an old law which provoked transgressions, it is a freedom for service and love. Because of this, the Church embraced the principle of religious liberty at the Second Vatican Council. I'd like to quote a few passages from
Dignitas Humanae---Declaration on Religious Freedom;
this Vatican synod declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. Such freedom consists in this, that all should have such immunity from coercion by individuals, or by groups, or by any human power {including the Church itself}, that no one should be forced to act against his (or her) conscience in religious maatters, nor prevented from acting according to conscience, whether in private or in publis, whether alone or in association with others, with due limits. The synod further declares that the right to religious freedom is firmly based on the dignity of the human person as this is known from the revealed word of God and from reason itself. (DH 2)
The practice of religion of its very nature consists principally in internal acts which are voluntary and free, in which one relates oneself to God directly; and these can neither be commanded nor prevented by any merely human power. (DH 3)
May I also point out, that a good number of holy individuals were "thrown out" excommunicated by the Church---only to be recognized as saints later. People like St. Joan of Arc and in more recent times, Mary McKillop of Australia (who will be cannonized).
Freedom of conscience is a HUMAN RIGHT---and no power, no church, no authority on this earth can revoke it.
Mark I made up a little rhyme
Mark I made up a little rhyme for you. It goes like this.
---------
The Spirit of the Lord proclaimed freedom to captives,
and the captives finally get it!
Alleluia Alleluia, let us rejoice and believe,
reciprocity from God we've received!
So, amen amen I say unto you,
The People of God can Excommunicate too.
It is so refreshing to hear a
It is so refreshing to hear a bishop reflect seriously on the words someone speaks instead of rashly judging the motivation, integrity, or honesty of someone whose words may be -- in whole or in part -- different from one's own view.
Thank you bishop for your
Thank you bishop for your pastoral leadership. One thing you lack is fear! It apparently let's you be open to the Spirit from whence it comes. God bless you and give us more like you.
Impressive ... Thank you
Impressive ... Thank you
Not a good way for Bp.
Not a good way for Bp. Dowling to curry "brownie points" with the Vatican bosses!
"There stands one’s own
"There stands one’s own conscience which must be obeyed before all else." The church is there to educate the conscience of the faithful. This is why we should not silence any voice. We must continue to find ways that respect best the human dignity of all God's children.
Wow! I am glad I am member
Wow! I am glad I am member of world wide faith community that includes such eloquent thinkers as Sister Sandra Scheiders and Bishop Kevin Dowling. When one hears, reads, or lives the divisions within the church, it is very easy to be discouraged. If one reads the Acts of the Apostles, one finds there were disagreements then too. Indeed if one reads a history of Christianity, the history of the religion is messy and sometimes tragic. Nonetheless, if one believes in Christ's promise that he will never abandon the church, one can procede in hope rather than fear. Voices like Schneiders' and Dowling's give me more hope than I had a couple weeks ago.
Thanks you so much, for your
Thanks you so much, for your clarity, charity, courage in expressing what I know SO MANY, especially the "little ones" are hoping for from the followers of Jesus, including & especially those "in power."
Amen.
Amen.
I am very grateful, Bishop
I am very grateful, Bishop Dowling, for your sensitive essay. I can't help being reminded of a passage from Mutuae Relationes (Directives for the Mutual Relations Between Bishops and Religious in the Church): "Every authentic charism implies a certain element of genuine originality and of special initiative for the spiritual life of the Church. In its surroundings it may appear troublesome and may even cause difficulties, since it is not always and immediately easy to recognize it as coming from the Spirit."
I really do not like coming
I really do not like coming across as sarcastic and cynical, but I knew the good bishop could not be from the United States. Talk about a faith-filled man/bishop. I only wish we had a few bishops in our country who exemplified in their life and ministry what this man articulates so well. Finally, a bishop who recognizes the many gifts of women religious.
God bless Bishop Dowling.
God bless Bishop Dowling. Where are his counterparts in this country of ecclesiastical pomp,incompetence,power, watered silk, lace and endless nonsense?
Thank God there ARE bishops
Thank God there ARE bishops such as this Bishop Kevin Dowling! I don't look for many progressive thoughts from most American bishops as each one is trying to outdo the other on who is more Catholic than the other. American bishops want power and most would probably like a red hat. The vast majority of them only want to PLEASE the Bishop of Rome at all costs, most to the expense of their own flocks (diocese) and the People of God they are called to serve. I have seen little evidence that bishops that have been appointed by John Paul II and Benedict are anything but "YES MEN" and when a true "leader" appears, such as Bishop Dowling, it amazes me. I actually believe the Holy Spirit will give us a Pope like John the 23rd after these last two backward thinking, restorationist and weak Popes that have set the Church on a course of final decay and implosion. Vatican III may indeed be just around the corner and it is my feeling that this new Council will COMPLETE the work of Vatican II and reverse the damage of the last two Bishops of Rome. John Paul II and Benedict have been disasters for certain but over two thousand years of Church history have provided us with some truly great Popes, most recently Pope John the 23rd.
It's so refreshing to read an
It's so refreshing to read an evenly balanced article for a change. Sandra Schneider speaks for us all who have been lived religious life for many, many, many years. Why is it that some topics elicit such an irrational response from people who have never lived a vowed life or experienced what it means to live a vowed live during the 21st Century? The world changes and is constantly changing. We don't insist that printing presses of the 16th or 17th century be used to do the work of today. We accept changes in farming, lifestyles, communication, every conceivable job. Why is it that our relationship with God has to still reflect Medieval ways?
Sandra speaks for us all but much better than we can individually. So glad to hear a balanced comment by a Bishop. Where is the Bishops of the USA?
Where are thee comments. This is the 21st century where transparancy is a value. Surely they learned that during the recent sexualy abuse cases which it seems are still going on. Although now we have stealing of large sums of money which is another thing they should work on.
Thanks NCR for doing this for us.
This is the first time a
This is the first time a Bishop speaks openly and honestly about the issues applying to the "investigation." I wish most bishops were as honest and open as Bishop Dowling. Unfortunately that is not the case. If it were, our Church would be respected much more than it is at present. More power to Bishop Dowling! Peace and Love always. =====Aristophilos
Thank you so much Bishop
Thank you so much Bishop Dowling for your courage to stand as part of the "Hierarchy" to listen to "others' point of view". It is so refreshing to listen to your compassionate and understanding attitude. Wishing that those in hierarchy will be gifted with the same spirit as you have.
I have been following this
I have been following this story, since it started, with interest
I feel (and many others will agree with me)that Bishop Dowling represents a courageous and sincere leader. As a South African, Catholic laywoman, I trust his analysis and discernment of events.
He recently won an award in SA for "his extraordinary contribution to driving social change as much in the churches as in society at large". (The South African Drivers for Change Award)
So reading his response to Sr Schneider's articles is so typical of his well considered thinking and reasoning.
As he quotes from the Vatican Two Documents: ultimately , in all matters, we have to follow our (informed) conscience.
Sister Schneider and Bishop Dowling thank you for your leadership and service.
Thank you Bishop Dowling.
Thank you Bishop Dowling. "Leadership and Service" - is not this what Jesus portrayed in his time on earth? What a concept to have our hierarchy focus on these two qualities. It would transform our church, perhaps in ways that would bring peace, compassion, and energy into our world and our churches.
After bishop Oscar Romero, I
After bishop Oscar Romero, I was looking forward to any bishop, to open their mouth and speak the truth to the hirarchy. it is just begining! Thank you bishop.
Thank you Bishop Dowling, You
Thank you Bishop Dowling,
You are truly a very spiritual man who sees the inner workings of God and the spirit. True leadership is the ability to find a place for all people who love God and are called according to his purposes. You have found a place for Sandra Schneiders and it is evident you could find a place for any human being you would encounter. That is the true presence of God. And that is true leadership. May God bless you richly. We need Bishops like you who have the courage to stand forward and move us forward. Thank you so much for your courage and the love you have for God. What a blessing you have been to me. Holly
Kiss that RED HAT goodbye,
Kiss that RED HAT goodbye, Bishop Dowling:
"There can be legitimate and different “opinions” at the level of the Vatican dicasteries, conferences of bishops, individual bishops, communities of religious and lay faithful. And there can be such a thing in the church as loyal dissent."
Truly, the church's loss of someone with your wisdom not being able to vote in the next conclave of cardinals...but you exemplify yet another important bone of contention within the ranks of ordained male clergy themselves: the TENSION and COMPETITION that has always existed BETWEEN religious and diocesan priests. Poll any random number of joe lunchbucket or hockey mom catholics and you'll probably find a preference for parishes run by members of a religious community. It seems to me that men purposely try to opt out of all that corporate ladder climbing (and loneliness leading to all sorts of abusive behaviors) by joining religious communities instead of dioceses.
"I think it is a mistake to
"I think it is a mistake to think that different expressions of life and ministry (in all aspects) between religious and hierarchical leadership and service can or should be controlled and brought into uniformity which is deemed orthodox by those who have authority in the church, viz. the hierarchy. That would be to potentially stifle the Spirit and the workings of the Spirit."
Rubbish.
1. What is the hierarchy FOR? Answer: they are shepherds guiding their flock, ensuring that they don't stray from the Faith that Saves. That's what you should be doing, your Lordship, not opening the fold gate and inviting in the wolves.
2. Has it never occurred to you that the Spirit might also be working in the Hierarchy too? Maybe you need to go back to Bishop School for a refresher.
I shall keep you in my prayers.
"That's what you should be
"That's what you should be doing, your Lordship, not opening the fold gate and inviting in the wolves" except that doing so is just what Jesus did so it sounds as if this bishop believes in following in Jesus' footsteps rather than the pope's.
Ah yes, the hierarchy are the
Ah yes, the hierarchy are the wise, responsible, professional Catholics, guiding the sheep who are too dumb to avoid bad pasture...
Bishop School?!?!?!?
Guiding the flock and beating
Guiding the flock and beating them into submission is not the same thing.
In case you haven't noticed,
In case you haven't noticed, the wolves already got in through the back door--in the form of abusive priests. And they were protected by a culture that put hierarchy ahead of what was right.
I respect you for remaining true to your traditionalist values; what is needed here is balance. Stifling all dissent, as you suggest, will not create a stronger church. I would not dream of suggesting that you stop posting to NCR discussion boards.
Why are you so bothered by the idea that some people disagree with the Pope on some points?
Motherboard, 1. Certainly,
Motherboard,
1. Certainly, abusive priests and their slack or complicit superiors – religious or otherwise – will have a lot to answer for. Had the hierarchy heeded its own infallible teaching on the grave sinfulness of sexual abuse, those wolves would have been banished.
But Bp Dowling’s statement that those in authority shouldn’t decide about orthodoxy betrays a drastic level of ignorance, or dissimulation. Orthodoxy is the only thing we can totally trust the magisterium (Pope and bishops together) to get right!
What I mean is: the Church was guaranteed to be infallible, but – contra what ancient and modern day Donatists might think – its ordinary human members were not guaranteed to be impeccable as well. So, we can always expect there to be in the Catholic Church bishops with less-than-perfect character (like me) who might flinch in the fight. But we know as Catholics that at least those bishops will always, united, teach salvific truth unalloyed with error - which truth equips us with the insights wherewith we can judge their (and our own) practical decisions.
In sum: the flock can only discern a wolf by the shepherd (hierarchy)’s divinely guaranteed definition of such. One can’t despatch with the hierarchy, as Bishop Dowling wants to do, without jettisoning the divinely guaranteed criteria by which its actions and those of others, are to be judged. On the truly Catholic understanding, to do so is to pull the rug from under oneself.
2. “Balance”? Er, your scales or mine? You’re calling for balance because on YOUR scales, there’s room for a shift. On MINE, on the other hand …
See my point?
3. It’s not disagreement per se that bothers me. I for one would seem to be in disagreement – if recent reports are any guide – with our great Pope, as to the existence and danger of global warming (more so after the recent rather unsettling revelations). No problem: while Catholics embrace a serious moral obligation to exercise stewardship of the earth, the existence or not of global warming is a matter of science, not of faith or morals, and I (and Cardinal George Pell of Sydney, among others) am permitted in good faith – so implies Vatican II ( Gaudium et Spes para. 36, plus Lumen Gentium 25 re infallibility concerning faith and morals only) – to arrive at a different science-based conclusion from other Catholics, including His Holiness, on the matter.
No, my concern is more with people who claim to be Catholic yet disagree with the Pope on some points on which there can be no disagreement if one is Catholic – for example, the inadmissibility of women priests, or the grave sinfulness of direct contraception. I am concerned for their eternal fate, poor things, and have them in my prayers. Bishop Dowling seems to be a very likeable man on the natural level. On the base of his remarks above, I shall be adding him to the list.
Hugh states: " In sum: the
Hugh states:
" In sum: the flock can only discern a wolf by the shepherd (hierarchy)’s divinely guaranteed definition of such."
What, Hugh, shall we do about the hierarchy (shepherd) who is, in fact, a wolf? Is discerning such a setting divinely guaranteed also? There are a few cracks in your concern for the eternal fate of us 'poor things'.
No cracks, mofo. To recap:
No cracks, mofo. To recap: the divine guarantee that bishops, teaching as one with the Holy Father on matters of faith and morals can never be in error (Vatican II) means that the task of discernment re. heretical wolves is quite simple. Whenever a shepherd utters statements in favour of women priests or contraception, abortion, we respond as did Little Red Riding Hood: "O,Pastor, what big ears you have!" etc.
As for pastors who are the paedophile-protecting type wolf - that falls outside the divine guarantee. As I said infallibility - not impeccability - was the promise. There's a burden of vigilance we all have to live with ... not easy, but think of the horrors of the alternative heretical donatist scenario: that sinful priests and bishops are able to confect the sacraments. How would we ever know from one week to the next which Mass or Confessional to go to? The Church would have disappeared a week or so after Pentecost. God is merciful.
should read: "that sinful
should read: "that sinful priests and bishops are UNable to confect the sacraments." ...
Hugh on Jan. 22, 2010. You
Hugh on Jan. 22, 2010.
You stated:
"No cracks, mofo. To recap: the divine guarantee that bishops, teaching as one with the Holy Father on matters of faith and morals can never be in error (Vatican II) means that the task of discernment re. heretical wolves is quite simple. Whenever a shepherd utters statements in favour of women priests or contraception, abortion, we respond as did Little Red Riding Hood: "O,Pastor, what big ears you have!" etc.
As for pastors who are the paedophile-protecting type wolf - that falls outside the divine guarantee. As I said infallibility - not impeccability - was the promise. There's a burden of vigilance we all have to live with ... not easy, but think of the horrors of the alternative heretical donatist scenario: that sinful priests and bishops are able to confect the sacraments. How would we ever know from one week to the next which Mass or Confessional to go to? The Church would have disappeared a week or so after Pentecost. God is merciful."
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There is much evidence from the Church's past that it takes ALL of God's people to be considered infallible. We have instance after instance in Church history where the Pope was very fallible. We have case after case where a vast majority of bishops were Arian---and their people refused to obey them. The bishops were stating that Jesus was God's highest creation---but still human--not God. The people believed otherwise---Jesus is the God/Man. We also had periods where two/three men claimed to be the true Pope---each excommunicating each other.
We've had popes who not only believed in nepotism, they wallowed in it. Were they infallible? Hardly!
So, when did the popes become infallible? At Vatican I where the Pope had himself declared infallible? Did Jesus say that the successors of Peter would be infallible? Hardly!
Little Bear and others asking
Little Bear and others asking these questions - I could answer each and every objection you make re. infallibility, but it's been done over and over by better scholars than I. If you're sincerely pursuing intelligent responses, try refuting or wrestling with the material on these topics at, for example, www.catholic.com . Prayers, and God bless you on your journey.
Can you be my bishop? Bravo!
Can you be my bishop? Bravo! Of course expect some complaints but even Jesus had his Judas. Bravo Bishop and God Bless you!
Thank you, Bishop Dowling. I
Thank you, Bishop Dowling.
I wish we had some Bishops like him in the USA.
Blessings.
Dear Bishop Dowling, Thank
Dear Bishop Dowling,
Thank you so much for expressing your thoughts on Sister Sandra's writings. It is great to know there are Bishops reading these pages. I hope more can get the courage to speak up. May God bless your Ministry in Africa.
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