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PDF version8th Day Center for Justice pressured over women's ordination
Sep. 28, 2011
Logo from the 8th Day Center web site
The 8th Day Center for Justice, long a staple of Catholic social justice activism in the Chicago area, is facing pressure from Cardinal Francis George because of a Sept. 18 event that featured a screening of the film “Pink Smoke Over the Vatican” and a talk by Maryknoll Fr. Roy Bourgeois.
“Pink Smoke” is a documentary expressing support for women's ordination in the Roman Catholic church. Bourgeois is currently under threat of removal from the Maryknoll Fathers and Brothers if he does not recant his own support of women's ordination.
NCR has learned that heads of religious orders associated with the center, which is supported by 39 orders of religious men and women, received letters from George several days before the event.
Two people who read the letter, dated Sept. 12, described its contents to NCR. Both said the letter mentioned that George stated the event could lead to scandal and confusion among the faithful over the church’s teaching on ordination and that he asked the leaders to remove their congregations’ support of the event.
In what seems to be a related move, Sacred Heart Fr. Bob Bossie, who has worked at the center for more than 30 years, has been suspended indefinitely from his work there by his provincial.
In a press statement this morning, the 8th Day Center stated that “many” of its sponsoring congregations had received letters from George. The center emphasized that it had hosted the film viewing, not the affiliated congregations.
“In response to [the] ‘Pink Smoke’ event, the leadership of many of 8th Day’s sponsoring congregations received a letter from Cardinal George regarding their assumed sponsorship of ‘Pink Smoke,’ ” according to the center’s statement. “This was a misunderstanding. 8th Day member congregations were not sponsors of this event.”
“We recognize the cardinal’s concerns, and pray that some common ground for dialogue can be found in our mutual love for our church,” the statement continues. “8th Day is committed to continue to create a safe space for dialogue about the primacy of conscience deeply rooted in our love for the church and all the people of God.”
The 8th Day Center, founded in 1974, invites religious congregations to become members of the organization by donating money, or by sending staff members to work at the office. Eight congregations, considered “sponsoring members” by the center, are represented by individual staff persons in Chicago.
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Sr. Kathleen Desautels, who is a member of the Sisters of Providence of St.-Mary-of-the-Woods and represents that congregation as a staff member at the center, said in a phone interview that George had sent letters to at least the eight “sponsoring member” congregations
In response, she said, the center’s coordinating council, which acts as a board for the organization and is made up of representatives from the eight sponsoring congregations and a number of the other 31 that support the center, sent a letter to George Sept. 21 asking to discuss his concerns regarding its leadership decisions.
A spokesperson for the Chicago archdiocese said yesterday they could not confirm George’s letter to the heads of congregations associated with the center, and said it may fall into the category of “personal correspondence,” which is not generally shared with archdiocesan staff.
In a letter made available to the media regarding his status with the center, Bossie said his suspension came after George contacted Sacred Heart Fr. Tom Cassidy, head of the U.S. province of the priests of the Sacred Heart, regarding the Sept. 18 event.
“Following being contacted by Cardinal George of Chicago, the provincial council of the Priests of the Sacred Heart has suspended for six months their sponsorship of the 8th Day Center for Justice and the presence of Bob Bossie,” reads Bossie's statement. “After six months, the council will review their decision.”
In a similar statement, a spokesperson for the priests of the Sacred Heart confirmed Bossie’s suspension from the center for an “indefinite period of time,” but did not relate it to the showing of the film.
Through e-mails with others familiar with his suspension, Bossie said he would prefer not to speak publicly as he wishes to have more conversation with Cassidy and is also focusing much of his energy on taking care of his brother, who recently had open-heart surgery.
Desautels said that beyond the loss of Bossie on the staff, the Sacred Heart congregation has suspended its funding, which she estimated to total some $14,000 a year for the social justice organization.
That loss of funding, Desautels said, is “going to be very hurtful to us” as it is “one of our largest yearly gifts.”
Desautels, who has been on staff with the organization for over 25 years, also said that while the center did wish to promote discussion with its showing of “Pink Smoke,” it hadn’t organized the event specifically to promote women's ordination.
In fact, she said, before the viewing of the movie, a center staff member read aloud the official church teaching regarding women's ordination from the catechism in order to “allay whatever possible confusion.”
Bourgeois has asked Dominican Fr. Tom Doyle, a noted canon lawyer, to fight his removal by arguing for his right to express his conscience.
While Desautels expressed hope that “something good will come” from 8th Day Center’s future discussions with George, she also said the situation raises larger questions on the freedom of people to follow their conscience regarding church teachings.
“This situation is not about Roy or even about women's ordination,” said Desautels. “It's about freedom of conscience and the scandal of demanding silence on topics such as the equality of women in the church and the possibility of ordination for those women who so desire it.”
[Joshua J. McElwee is an NCR staff writer. His e-mail address is jmcelwee@ncronline.org.]
How terrified of women are
How terrified of women are these people? This is just plain sick!
I think the book has pretty
I think the book has pretty well been written on the "scandal and confusion" that has been caused among the People of God, much of it by Cardinal Francis George himself.
It is unbelievable that bishops still think they can legislate peoples' consciences and their freedoms of speech and discussion.
How quickly Sacred Heart priest Bob Bossie was removed from his position with the 8th Day Center and his congregation's financial support pulled.
Would that religious congregations had yanked sexual predators of individuals, especially children, from ministry and priesthood as quickly instead of leaving them in ministry where they continued to sexually exploit, molest, intimidate, harass and bully victims and their families while being financially supported for decades. And all the time, no one called the police. So much for moral turpitude, criminal behavior and Mortal Sins. All appear to have gone up in smoke, pink or not.
Sr. Kathleen Desautels is right. It's all about individuals' right and responsibility to follow their consciences.
Sister Maureen Paul Turlish
Advocate for Victims of CSA & Legislative Reform
Delaware & Pennsylvania
maturlishmdsnd@yahoo.com
www.Justice4PaKids.com
www.Catholics4Change.com
www.VOTFGP.org
PENNSYLVANIANS - CALL YOUR LEGISLATORS - SUPPORT HOUSE BILLS 832 & 878
Thank you for your courage in
Thank you for your courage in identifying yourself, Sister Maureen. You don't seem confused at all! If Cardinal George really thinks that the rest of us are simpletons who can't be trusted with an idea, he's really out of touch and not fit to lead a diocese.
Have you ever actually ever
Have you ever actually ever corresponded with Cardinal George? I have. And I personally know several women who have been in dialogue with him regarding exploring the possibility of women deacons in the Church. I experience Cardinal George as a very dialogical archbishop. What you and so many others do not understand is that he and other bishops do not have the power to change Canon Law. That is within the jurisdiction of the Holy See. Furthermore Cardinal George is entrusted with safeguarding the teachings of the Church. He has a responsibility to take measures to ensure that persons representing Catholic organizations and communities do not mislead Catholics in his archdiocese with regard to Church teachings.
You should not call him a simpleton. It is disrespectful and childish to call anyone names. It demonstrates within yourself an arrogance and a lack of charity. It is not Christlike.
Regarding Fr. Roy Bourgeois, he knew what the consequences would be for his actions. He had always been vocal concerning his position with regard to women being denied priestly ordination. The reason Roy excommunicated himself was not because he expressed his opinion, but because he publically violated Canon Law by participating as a clergy member at a Roman Catholic Womenpriest ordination Mass through concelebrating at that liturgy and preaching at it. The women bishops and priests in that organization are not validly ordained. They claim they are because the original seven women "ordained" from their group known as the Danube 7 - were ordained by a Catholic bishop, and therefore their ordinations are within the direct apostolic line of succession. But what members of that organization fail to mention is that the bishop who ordained the Danube 7 did not have the authority from the Church to ordain them, and without that authority from the Church those ordinations are automatically rendered invalid - as well as being illicit.
These women do not have the authority to confer any of the seven Sacraments, nor does anyone else in that organization. What is particularly distressing to me is that innocent people who may feel lost and who are searching may believe they are receiving valid Sacraments from them, but in truth they are not. That is where the scandal comes into play. Cardinal George is charged with caring for the souls of the Catholics in his Archdiocese. He is doing his job by doing what he can to help prevent Catholics from becoming misled.
Most Catholics lack the theological education to understand what I have just explained. And then there are those who possess such education and yet try to manipulate changes in the Church that they want. The Church is a very complex organization that embodies peoples from every culture across the globe. The ordination of women is not as simple as you might think. Bishops can decide to not ordain permanent deacons - whether or not to have them is totally within their own discretion - but this is not the case with priests. Even if by some miracle the Pope had a revelation that there were no theological or doctrinal barriers to women being priests this would not be approved. Why? Because of the risk of schism in the Church. There are too many cultures that are not ready for such a change. The Pope's primary role is to serve as a symbol of Christian unity.
I think it is important for us to express our views as Catholics, but we need to do so with a sense of respectfulness to one another and to our bishops. They have a difficult task. Not every bishop agrees with women not being ordained as priests. But every bishop will keep such an opinion to himself and only share that with the closest of friends or family because his primary loyalty must be to Christ and to the Church. Bishops will not argue with Rome because of the necessity for unity in the Church and their allegience to the Pope.
Canon law must be
Canon law must be subordinated to the Gospel of Jesus Christ - which is inclusive and against legalism, laws that cripple and forget the greatest of all commandments: Love. Jesus was executed by people who thought law was more important than the Gospel of inclusiveness.
Not going to happen. Dream
Not going to happen. Dream on. Or get with the Episcopal Church USA, and assist with their growing irrelevance.
Your words sound so
Your words sound so "Christian - like". I cant imagine Jesus saying to his followers "dream on or get" out. You have a right to your opinion but you have a responsibility to speak with charity. Just becasue you think you are right does not mean that I am wrong. CS
As learned as you seem to be,
As learned as you seem to be, and as important as this subject is...why do you choose to hide your opinions under the rug of Anonymous. Can't you be as forthright as Sister Marueen?
Would that sister would even
Would that sister would even once concede that the LCWR has a much worse record of abuse and cover-up than any bishop or diocese! Would that sister stop being such a hypocrite and admit all she cares about it taking down the church as a mouthpiece for the voice of the faithless! Sister--why won't you come out and admit that no one in your order every abused anyone, covered it up, or payed anyone off? If that's the truth, be transparent. If you are hiding anything, be transparent!
I'm easy to get in touch
I'm easy to get in touch with.
My e-mail is out there but in case you've missed it - maturlishmdsnd@com
Or you could write to me care of the National Catholic Reporter. I'm confident that any such correspondence would be forwarded to me.
While attacking me does not help anyone I am sorry for the pain that comes through in your postings.
Blessings,
Sister Maureen
The Church has infallibly
The Church has infallibly spoken on the issue of women's ordination. It has nothing to do with equality, but rather with simply different roles we are called by God to fill. Men can't give birth, but it doesn't mean we aren't equal with women. It saddens me when I see a religious such as Sister Maureen giving scandal to Catholics who aren't as versed in the teachings of the Magisterium. Sister, do you think you know more and are more informed than 2,000 years of Church wisdom? Why are you even a sister? Meditate on The Little Flower or St. Catherine of Siena. Would they do what you are doing? Remain silent...or else it is better for you that a millstone be tied around your neck.
You are very mistaken
You are very mistaken concerning this. The Church has not spoken infallibly on this issue. There are specific conditions which need to be met in order for the Pope to speak infallibly in matters of faith and moral teaching, and those conditions have not been met.
Having said this, it does not matter whether this issue was spoken infallibly or not. We need to respect the Pope enough and our other bishops and also other Catholics to not blatantly disregard Canon Law and Church teaching. If the Pope says women cannot be ordained as priests, there are appropriate ways that this can be challenged. Fr. Roy and the Roman Catholic Womenpriests are not following appropriate means to do that. I believe they have been very disrespectful to Pope Benedict and to persons who disagree with them.
You should carefully read the Canonical conditions for infallibility.
Wrong!! this is part of the
Wrong!!
this is part of the regular teaching of the Church. It is part of the big "T". It will never change to get it through you thick scull and move on.
Prove it!!! Evil is such by
Prove it!!!
Evil is such by any group doing it. May I remind you, women are less likely to abuse, as they have been and are still the ones most likely to be victimized the males.
Well, Anonymous, at least Sr.
Well, Anonymous, at least Sr. has the courage to identify herself, where is yours? Please provide your sources for your allegations otherwise you are embarrassing yourself and perhaps that is why you signed in Anonymously!
Cheers,
You hide your face, make back
You hide your face, make back handed comments, imply that this sister has offended and then ask for transparency. Who is the hypocrite now?
the Catholic church
the Catholic church throughout her history is the Hierarchy. The early followers of Christ identity are the 12 Apostles and not the hundred of believers. The Catholic Church will remain as is, because it is following the spirit of Christ: 12 apostles and their successors. It is not the followers or believers. Without the Pope and the Bishops, no real church according to the founding of Christ. The billion of believers come because of the leadership, not because there are believers.
We can always have intellectual discussions, and some intellectuals can be very convincing, but it was the lowly and the uneducated that always save the church. It is always the silent workers of the church that make the catholic church respond to the modern world. It is not what we think that matters, it is how faithful we are in Christ: 12 Apostles and their successors. In the 12 Apostles there are Peter and Judas. They are the Catholic church and we follow them.
While I respect your sharing
While I respect your sharing I must disagree with you. You and I along with all those who follow Jesus Christ are Christians. We who are catholic have done some very odd things in our history... I fear that much of the hierarchy has become like those whom Jesus confronted: high priests, social and religious structures which exploited individuals, families, different ethnic groups. People who were left out or cast out are those whom Jesus accepted and included. In this sense, those left out of the definition which you pose, are those whom Jesus would hold close and relate with. Would you be satisfied to live in a world where you are included because, say, you are a man; a world that would keep women segregated from full participation? If yes, then you are satisfied with the way things are and you undoubtedly would be happy with the system that oppressed Jesus and his friends. Just thinking. No offense.
Cardinal George does not fear
Cardinal George does not fear women. As a matter of fact, from what I have heard from a reliable source, he is quite dialogical and warm toward the women in the Chicago Archdiocese. The people who are scared are members of the Roman Catholic Women Priests who created the film "Pink Smoke". I do not agree with their tactics of blatantly disregarding the Catholic community and Canon Law to fit their own vision for the Church, and they have never returned my emails when I have expressed an opposing view to theirs.
But Cardinal George, to the contrary, took time to answer my letter when I expressed an understanding that the same reservation of men to the priesthood is not extended to the permanent diaconate. He was very kind in his letter, and he was dialogical toward me.
What a contrast. So who is terrified of who here?
The members of the Roman Catholic Women Priests, and also Fr. Roy are interested in one thing, and one thing only - to push their own agenda for their own self interests. They claim they are being loving and following their own consciences - but they are not loving toward those who disagree with them. They are disrespectful toward Pope Benedict and members of the Magisterium. I attended a Call to Action meeting where Fr. Roy and a woman who was to be ordained were present, and nearly everyone there arrogantly verbally attcked Rome. If you care about the Catholic faith community - you then need to respect the people who do not agree with women being ordained irregardless of what you believe. The Church is not a democracy where the majority rules. Until the Magisterium changes their mind concerning this, Catholics need to assent to that teaching even if they do not agree.
You cannot force change in the Church. You must allow God to make the moves on the chessboard. We are only instruments and if He wants women to be ordained as priests, believe me, God will make sure that this happens. The Church is open to women deacons - but has not yet moved toward ordaining women to the permanent diaconate. This too will happen if God wills it - but according to His time. We can continue to dialogue with our bishops. But we should not blatantly disregard what they are asking of us.
To hold any other attitude in this matter is arrogant and not from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not divisive. Jesus desires unity in the Church, not division. The members of the Roman Catholic Women Priest group and also Fr. Roy have effectively cut themselves off from the very faith community they believe they are trying to save. It is very tragic. Fr. Roy boasts about following his conscience - but I wonder how he is honoring that by cutting himself off from all of us. He could have helped promote women deacons in the Church, something which appears to be developing. Instead, he is following a pink smokescreen and false prophets. The fact that he is a priest and doing this is extremely sad.
Amen !! Sad that so many are
Amen !!
Sad that so many are allowing themelves to be miselad ... Why is it so difficult to understand , as Catholics, we are called to be obedient to the Pope and the Magesterium in union with him...
Women Priests...Married Priests... Unions for Priests...
Lord have mercy ... Whatever happend to devout, holy , humble and obedient Priests?? Priests like St. Vianney, St. Pio, St. Augustine and the list goes on ...
The Priest that says he needs to have the freedom to vent his concience makes no sense... the poor soul is mislead himself.. There is a huge difference between venting your concience and being disobedient ... but for some that seems to be the trend these days...outside and sadly, inside the Church..
Fr. John Hardon's wrting on Womens Ordination http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Priesthood/Priesthood_009.htm and Priests call to obedience and humility http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Priesthood/Priesthood_005.htm... answer many of the questions for those who are sincerely seeking to try to understand the Church's stand on these two matters... for the others it would be a waste of time bc it doesnt fit their agenda's..
There are many false prophets..but we were warned there would be... That's why Jesus gave us the Church & an earthly Shepherd ... We don't have 33,000 denominatinons like the Protestants..We are called to be One Body in Christ .. When we follow the Church, We follow Christ as He asked us to do ...
Siberian, the HOLY SPIRIT has
Siberian, the HOLY SPIRIT has been stiffled in the Church to the point where the potentates are in chism with the teachings of Christ to a horrifying degree.
Instead of being humble servants, they are dictators, giving disgusting scandal in behaviour, lifestyle and example. The Mafia was not as brazen and revolting in their crimes.
God has no hands or feet or
God has no hands or feet or words but ours! It is possible for adults to agree to disagree.Those who belong to Women Priests and Fr. Roy are not about their own personal agenda but believe that God works in them and through them
as the Church has always proclaimed. The Spirit moves in mysterious ways and it may be through the Women Priest Organization and through Fr Roy. Now wouldn't that be something!
I think it goes a tad bit
I think it goes a tad bit deeper than just "pushing their own agenda." What they are doing is speaking out in the way that they Holy Spirit is guiding them. Who is the Church to discount how the Holy Spirit guides those women who are faithful?
Jesus desires unity. And Jesus desires love for all people.
If a women approached Jesus and asked, "Jesus, may I share in your priesthood? May I, too, be part of this beautiful mission?" Do you think Jesus would say, "Excuse, but you are a woman. So. No."
That's not the Jesus portrayed in the New Testament.
Always an interesting topic to pray about. Just don't close your mind to it instantly.
You are entirely correct. The
You are entirely correct. The think the Church is terrified of women in the priesthood and women in the Church hierarchy. I believe, as well, that the Church is equally terrified of married priests serving Catholic congregations. Is the Church imitating Christ as it should? I think not.
Petradom737@aol.com
So the cardinal's underlings
So the cardinal's underlings won't confirm the letter that was sent. George and his ilk much prefer to work their tyrannical mischief below the radar so their heavy-handed tactics won't be exposed by the light of truth. Well, cardinal, more and more of us know the cowardly bully who is behind the curtain, pulling the strings.
Its beyond my comprehension
Its beyond my comprehension that this happens - of course women can be priests, how is it even an issue beggars understanding, and communities have every right to explore their purpose of being. I am concerned with how power is so unjustly and corruptly exercised in some parts of the Catholic Church.
With respect, Ms. Kelson, it
With respect, Ms. Kelson, it is beyond my comprehension how you can claim that, "of course women can be priests". Throughout the Church's entire 2000 year history, building upon a Judaic history of millennia as well, the Church has taught unequivocally that priesthood is reserved to men alone, by God's specific design. This is settled Church teaching, definitively expressed by Blessed John Paul II and Pope Paul VI, of happy memory. It belongs to the infallible Depositum Fidei, the Deposit of the Faith, that possesses the charism of ordinary infallibility, just as the dogma of the Blessed Trinity. Each belong to the Depositum Fidei and each are considered a part of the infallible Ordinary Magisterium of the Church.
There is absolutely nothing unjust in the reservation of priestly ordination to men alone. Ordination is NOT A RIGHT, it is a gift, freely given by God, through His Church, to whom He wishes. All sacraments are gifts of God mediated and administered by His Holy Church; it belongs to the Church to determine who is to receive these sacraments (the Church, for example, requires prospective spouses to participate in pre-marital counseling prior to matrimony, and the Church reserves the right to deny that sacrament should it be revealed in the counseling that either prospective spouse is not fully capable and willing to give free consent to matrimony).
St. Paul reminds us that there are many gifts but the same Spirit. There are many ministries and vocations that one can be called to. Some vocations are not open to everyone, not everyone, not even every woman, can be a mother, for example. No one vocation or ministry is superior to any other. A teacher is not any better or any worse than a priest, nor is a religious sister any better or any worse than a doctor, a lawyer, a police officer, a paramedic, a soup kitchen volunteer, a social worker, etc.
If vocation is about service, then it should be obvious that all vocations that serve God and His people are good and equal. If, however, the vocation in question is not about service but about power, well, then, that's an entirely different matter. That is, I fear, what this push for women's ordination is all about -- power and the exercise thereof.
If it were about service, then these folks would be far more interested in helping women to see where their unique gifts and abilities are most needed in the service of God and mankind. They would not waste time tilting at impossible windmills, they would be about the Lord's work.
CWG, sorry but your knowledge
CWG, sorry but your knowledge of the history of Christianity is woefully inadequate. Amazing that you see the "push for ordination of women" as all about power seeking, but don't recognize the failure of the hierarchy to share power as problematic. I'd take time for more but that'd be "tilting at impossible windmills."
How right you are that it is
How right you are that it is a gift given by God to be a priest! And, these women were called and given the gift of the priesthood, regardless of what the hierarchy of the church says. Where does it say in scripture that certain vocations are only for men or only for women? It does not. Men of the church made those distinctions, not God.
why don't you woman "priests"
why don't you woman "priests" advocates just leave? Luther and Henrey VIII were pretty sure the Holy Spirit was speaking the truth. There are many men around my town who are sure God is "calling them" to have two or more wives. You are no different. Don't go away mad just go away.
Once upon a time, Pope John
Once upon a time, Pope John XXIII opened the windows of the church to let fresh air in so that the church could enable the Spirit to transform the church and through the church transform the world; it was a time of great hope. Beginning with Humanae Vitae, there seems to have been a great loss of confidence and trust in the spirit - and most certainly trust in the wisdom of the spirit speaking through the laity. This lack of trust in the spirit has continually been experessed in constant attempts to roll back the clock to the pre-vatican II Church and to draw all authority and voice to the center. There has been a consistent effort to separate the clergy from the laity and to emphasize the role of the clergy as one of authoritarian and absolute with the role of the laity to pay, pray and obey. Many have simply lost heart and walked away - the hope and fire that was present for a short time 30 and 40 years ago has been dampened - not destroyed. Those in authority are most afraid of the Spirit of God whom they cannot control and of the voices of the people of God - "We are not a democracy" is their mantra. How Sad for the church, but once again, You Cannot Imprison the Word of the Lord.
Thank you for your
Thank you for your encouraging words! I am currently a graduate student in theology at a school that seems to be moving in a direction that you have highlighted above as closed off to the moving of the Spirit of God rather than open to its creativity and life.
This past summer, one of our professors, a vowed religious, was "reassigned" after three decades of teaching and ministering to our school and its affiliated communities. In response to questions asked about this abrupt change, we often heard what you stated above: "The Church is a monarchy, not a democracy." That statement and many others led me to enroll in a class on Christian political thought, so I can understand better the historical development of authority and power in the Catholic Church.
I believe in the voice and dignity of the laity. Vatican II's radical thinking has been dampened, but not destroyed. The Spirit cannot be contained, neither can the Word of the Lord. Amen to that!
Dear Hopeful layperson, Of
Dear Hopeful layperson, Of course you believe in the voice and the dignity of the laity. Each of us can believe what he/she wants to believe and do what he/she wants to do regardless of the consequences and the potential harm it does to others. We should be gratified that the Catholic Church is protecting the Deposit of Faith from all error. It is not a power-grab as many on this board refer to it. We cannot believe what we want to without accepting TRUTH and protecting TRUTH!
Your comments reflect two
Your comments reflect two apparent errors, Mr. Warren:
+ You seem to equate ALL official teaching from Rome as part of the Deposit of Faith, which is defined as all that God has revealed through Christ for our salvation, and
+ You are implying that our fellow blogger (among others) can "do what he/she wants to do regardless of the consequences and the potential harm it does to others."
You should have known long before now that most church teaching is anything *but* infallible doctrine, and you should be aware that most people who accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in their faith-filled lives do not necessarily accept in good faith everything that comes out of the Vatican; they are capable of distinguishing between essential belief and noninfallible doctrine.
Dear Joseph Jaglowicz, Each
Dear Joseph Jaglowicz, Each at his/her own peril! The Catholic Church upholds all the teachings of JESUS CHRIST!
"The Catholic Church upholds
"The Catholic Church upholds all the teachings of JESUS CHRIST!"
O, really???
We have the Creeds, Mr. Warren, as well as the four canonical gospels.
However, we have many other teachings which are not at all infallible --- such as, for example, the idea that Rome lacks the authority to ordain women to the presbyterate/episcopate. "Ball's in Rome's court" per the 1983 Code of Canon Law, a book of rules neither you nor I had any role in writing. Yet even it --- per canon 749.3 --- puts the burden on pope and fellow bishops to make their case that a proposed teaching is, in fact, infallible. THIS IS CHURCH LAW whether you like it or not. The purpose of this law is to protect you and me from heretical or otherwise false church teaching.
"Each at his/her own peril!"
I truly feel sorry for you and likeminded who see God as a vindictive punisher. "You can lead a horse to water [the truth of God's unconditional love], but you can't him drink it."
I once subscribed to this orthotoxy.
Thank God, no more.
tom warren on Sep. 29,
tom warren on Sep. 29, 2011.
You stated:
"Dear Hopeful layperson, Of course you believe in the voice and the dignity of the laity. Each of us can believe what he/she wants to believe and do what he/she wants to do regardless of the consequences and the potential harm it does to others. We should be gratified that the Catholic Church is protecting the Deposit of Faith from all error. It is not a power-grab as many on this board refer to it. We cannot believe what we want to without accepting TRUTH and protecting TRUTH!"
--------------------------------------------
The Deposit of Faith ended with the death of St. John the Apostle. What Jesus taught and the example that he gave, the Apostles and the early Christian communities formed what we call DOGMA. But nothing was to be added
to that.
But our Church leaders decided that they could twig this belief or that one, and soon we ended up with DOCTRINES that often conflict directly with DOGMA.
For example---Jesus did not come to destroy the Jewish understanding of the sacredness of marriage. Nor did Jesus state that anyone who followed him should have to give up marriage. In the early Christian church bishops and prsbyters, and deacons were all married.
But our Church has stated that all priests are to be celibate. They changed what Jesus supported, what the Apostles held, what Paul wrote of---before any Gospel was written---the Deposit of Faith was CHANGED to support the hierarchical Church's desire to maintain its power and authority.
Finally, throughout history, saints and theologians have supported the primacy of conscience---as Aquinas stated "better to risk excommunication than to violate one's conscience."
This is a fascinating
This is a fascinating comment. It appears that Tom Warren does not believe that the church should listen to the voice of THE church, nor that the 99.99% of members of THE church who are not clergy should be accorded dignity.
He is perhaps just another cafeteria Catholic, ignoring Vatican II. He apparently disagrees with Blessed John Cardinal Newman, who wrote a famous document called "On Consulting the Faithful on Matters of Doctrine." Vatican II is sometimes called "Newman's Council" because the documents of Vatican II formally recognized the TRUTH in Newman's understandings and insights that the institutional church has often gone wrong in its history and that the "faithful' must be consulted. Teachings that are not accepted by the faithful are generally not TRUTH, according to Newman.
Apparently Mr. Warren, like many in the hierarchy of the church, is so afraid of women, that he thinks that accepting the TRUTH that women are made in the image of God would somehow cause harm! This TRUTH is found in the very earliest writings of the bible (Genesis) - God "made them male and female, in God's image". He supports denying the priesthood to those made in the image of God - simply because of their DNA. What a slap in God's face!
What causes harm to the church? The pride and arrogance of the patriarchal system. This has been most recently demonstrated by the corruption and criminal behavior of a hierarchy that has consistently, even during the last few years - post "Boston" - protected the worst kind of sexual perverts - those who target children, leaving them free to molest tens of thousands of young people who might have been spared this horror had the men in charge had even a basic sense of right and wrong. This pattern continues - with Cloyne, Philadelphia and Kansas City among the most recent examples.
After all, what do the bishops have to fear? As long as they are loyal to Rome instead of to THE church and to God, they have reason to believe that they will be rewarded for their misplaced loyalty - a loyalty that has put an institution and its hierarchy ahead of God. After all, many of those bishops who protected the institution at the expense of children have been rewarded - some promoted to head their own dioceses, and some like Cardinal Law, given very cushy jobs in Rome. NONE have been disciplined by Rome. NONE have been yanked by the pope as was the bishop in Australia, struggling to work with only about three dozen priests in a diocese the size of Germany and who suggested that the church re-examine the denial of a sacrament to more than half of those made in God's image.
TRUTH has been sacrificed to preserve a patriarchal system of power, prestige, and privilege.
"Scandal?" Nonsense. We all
"Scandal?" Nonsense. We all know what is really the main source of scandal in the Church, don't we? So Cardinal George wants to crack down? Well, I wish everyone would speak up loudly and proudly. He can't excommunicate everyone
You said it brother.
You said it brother. Actually the cardinal probably can excommumicate everyone, but that only matters if you pay attention to him.
This is getting ridiculous.
This is getting ridiculous. Ridicule is not the least of it. Silencing freedom of speech and conscience is and always has been evil.
Deacon, some consciences are
Deacon, some consciences are less scrupulous than others. For some, freedom to have an abortion fits within the bounds of their individual consciences. As Catholics, we are blessed with a magisterium that brings stability which brings us the confidence that what we are taught now is in line with the truth the Apostles taught.
It is pride that is the root of evil. This includes the pride that brings an individual or a group to say to themselves that we are right and all those who came before us over the past 2000 years were wrong.
Wow. A religious order is
Wow. A religious order is actually holding a member accountable for his actions? First Mr. Roy B and now this priest. Maybe the Second Coming is near? Although we know there is zero chance that any of the sponsoring women's orders will hold any of their members accountable for anything, especially to uphold Church teaching.
Historically, it is WOMEN who
Historically, it is WOMEN who have implemented the crap that the hierarchy fed us for years as it was fed to them. Then, one day, the women religious awakened and said - ENOUGH! "I'll be a handmaiden to the Lord but not to these earthy princes of medieval times!" Kudos for all the strong women in religious life who perpetuate the message of the gospel - they have come to serve and not BE served as many priests and hierarchy have evolved. I have more criticism of the lowly priests (on the corporate ladder) who feel the way we do but their career within the archdiocese prohibits them from vocally dissenting. Saw the minions of the dioceses this summer when in Rome. All handpicked for future corporate positions - i.e. pastors, msgr. and future bishops. Yikes!!!
It is the women who make up
It is the women who make up most of the Church. Take the female component out of the Church now and what do you have left??? A frail, osteoporotic shadow of an institution!
So leave already and let us
So leave already and let us see how it works
Let us not forget the recent
Let us not forget the recent inquisition foisted upon women's religious congregations. Rome knows the faithfulness and strength of these women and they don't have a clue how to work with them and encourage their wonderful, Christ centered ministries.
I'll admit that I am a former Roman Catholic Sister and now an Episocpal priest. It hasn't been particularly easy to be a woman and a priest, but those challenges are lessening daily.
Rather than continue to allow the polarizing and hurtful law, might the church try compassion and community?
Don't cave into these devilish and hurtful words, my sisters. Pray, be vigilent, have faith.
Anonymous, I wish you would
Anonymous, I wish you would identify yourself? What are you afraid of?
Karen, I wish 'Anonymous'
Karen, I wish 'Anonymous' would not only identify himself but would also study some church history! In the first decades after the death of Jesus, the followers of Jesus had many and variant interpretations of the Good News. Why was that? Because Jesus preached freedom and creativity and an abhorrence of ritual, doctrine and dogma. This is proven by the fact that many of the differing views were incompatible with each other on the basis of doctrine. That wasn't by accident but rather because of one of the main tenets of Jesus: freedom of conscience, the freedom to be your own person in relationship to the Divine, the Infinite, the Unknowable. This is in direct opposition to the concept that some hierarchs have today that followers of Jesus have to fit the cookie cutters design.
It was only after Jesus had been gone from this earth physically that those who never had a clue of what he was all about, attempted to seize control of the teachings and decided which gospels could be considered to be in the canon of the church. Dozens of gospels were rejected, because they did not fit what the controllers wanted-------yes, these were the first members of the hierarchy. They decided what should and should not be 'acceptable' for Christians to believe. Jesus NEVER tried to put a mental lock on his followers, that is why so many different versions of his message flourished: that was his point, follow your conscience that is formed in relationship to Jesus. He was all about friendship and love, not rules and restrictions. Dude, study your history!
Mr. Bordine, if this is
Mr. Bordine, if this is really what you believe to be the case, then why would you be a member of the Roman Catholic Church (assuming you are). If you are a member of Mother Church, then surely you recognize that being a member means conforming oneself to certain beliefs and principles, certain teachings and dogmas. No one is forcing you to be a member of Mother Church, if making the free decision to conform to these teachings is inconsistent with your conscience, then no one will deny you the right to leave and find a faith that is more in keeping with your conscience.
However, I must disagree with your premise that Christ taught "freedom to be your own person in relationship with the Divine". Christ was very clear that His followers were to obey the commandments and to conform themselves ever more closely to Him; to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. In other words, being a follower of Jesus does not mean that I can do whatever I want to do, but rather that in every moment of every day of my life I strive to become more and more like Christ, to turn away from sin, selfishness and my own desires and to turn toward Him.
Aquinas taught that freedom, to a Christian, is not the freedom to do what I want, but rather the freedom to what I ought. Being truly free is about being able to grow closer to Christ, to change my life to conform with His and with His teaching; being truly free is not about me trying to force Christ to conform to my life, to be more like me.
Finally, Christ had no problem with ritual, doctrine and dogma. He celebrated the High Holy Days, for example (that's why He was in Jerusalem during the Passover, why He celebrated the Last Supper). He taught that not one dot or dash in the Commandments would be changed until He returned at the end of time. He attended the synagogue and worshiped in the Temple. He followed Jewish law and custom. The problem Our Lord had was not with the ritual, the doctrine or the dogma, but rather with those who would use the Law as a club, forcing people to live one way, while they themselves did as they wished. He had a problem with hypocrites, not with authentic believers. Doctrine, dogma and ritual are means to enable us to grow every closer to God, to more and more and ever more conform our lives to God.
Being a member of Mother
Being a member of Mother Church does not mean conforming. Perhaps it means we have been baptized and try to follow Jesus's example. Or maybe everyone is a member in some mysterious way. But I've never heard the requirement was conforming.
CWG, those who are committed
CWG, those who are committed in love with the Divine are afar afield of "doing whatever you want"! If you look compassionately and independently at the life and authentic teachings of Jesus you will be overcome by his desire to be with us in love..........not in LAW. That is the reason that Jesus introduced the WAY to us and why he left the rituals and practices of Judaism. That was the whole point of his incarnation into our lives.
I would suggest the book by Roger Haight, S.J., "Jesus, Symbol of God". For those in love: rules, doctrines, and dogmas determine nothing of consequence; love is in the heart and is its own guide. That certainly does not mean that the lover is "free to do whatever he/she wants"; just as following dogma, rules and doctrines does not a lover make. The Jesus of history is a lover, not a lawyer.
Amen. I can only hope that
Amen.
I can only hope that Mr. Green will get hold of the Linns' GOOD GOATS: HEALING OUR IMAGE OF GOD.
Healthy orthodoxy.
Not orthotoxy.
It's interesting to hear the
It's interesting to hear the Roman Church referred to as "Mother Church" when women have no authority in the organization. On the face of it, it would seem that "Mother" is a transvestite and a sterile one at that.
Yes, as stated this is about
Yes, as stated this is about freedom of conscience and the scandal of demanding silence, like the scandal of demanding silence about the sex abuse scandal. Silence about any action is wrong, most sin is committed in secrecy. "do not tell" Demanding that half the Catholic population have no voice is wrong. There is nothing that can be done to make silencing of women a right and just action. This is all about the politics of the church fraternity. The fraternity that brought us the sex scandal and is bringing us the financial scandal. If women were allowed in, the men might have to clean up their act. The women have justicer and right values on their side. Might does not make right. It is a shome that therer are no Cardinals in our church with backbones.
MJH
George should know better
George should know better than to overreact (or maybe he doesn't). To mention the reactionary words, "which may cause scandal and confusion", undercuts the fact that a vast majority of Catholics today know how to read and comprehend what they are reading. Besides, primacy of conscience, is a hallmark of Vatican II. But that, too, will probably be rewritten by those reactionary folks who claim to be the church's leaders. Fortunately, most are listening to them.
It's been rewritten. The
It's been rewritten. The phrase is "primacy of an informed conscience" and since the pope, cardinals and bishops all poses a totally informed conscience while we only have a mere conscience guess who gets to say "believe this or else"?
Sarcasm? (i hope) Where in
Sarcasm? (i hope)
Where in the CCC does it say that "the pope, cardinals and bishops [alone possess] a totally informed conscience"?
I must have missed that part.
George should know better
George should know better than to overreact (or maybe he doesn't). To mention the reactionary words, "which may cause scandal and confusion", undercuts the fact that a vast majority of Catholics today know how to read and comprehend what they are reading. Besides, primacy of conscience, is a hallmark of Vatican II. But that, too, will probably be rewritten by those reactionary folks who claim to be the church's leaders. Fortunately, most are not listening to them.
For all those who have quit
For all those who have quit donating to the bishop in your own diocese how about giving that money to the 8th Day Center For Justice in Chicago! They have just been denied their annual gift of $14,000. just because they showed the film of"Pink Smoke Over the Vatican". Again we see the heavy hand of the hierarchy punishing those who wish to discuss the real problems that face our Church today. The culture of clericalism at its finest!!!
That's a good idea; I'm going
That's a good idea; I'm going to do that.
Good idea! First thing the
Good idea! First thing the diocese can do when it cuts back spending is fire the wackos libs in the chancery!
How does the movie rank....is
How does the movie rank....is it really a "B" rated movie on that old Catholic listing???
Please...people can't even watch a movie, even if they don't (or do!) support the premise? This is outright censorship and it's getting worse and worse...
The hierarchy are running scared! And they should be...
As a woman graduate of 16
As a woman graduate of 16 years of Catholic schooling and a retired teacher, my conscience demands that I send a small contribution from my Sunday envelope to help to replace the $14,000 retracted donation. Time to help lead the Church into a new egalitarian age.
I too would welcome bank
I too would welcome bank details - between us we can replace these funds much needed for social justice, and removed as a punishment to silence those who ask for nothing more than debate. Shame on the church.
I'm all for it! I'd like to
I'm all for it! I'd like to contribute to this center also; maybe if we all pull together, we can make up the difference. If 150 people donated $35/mo. for the next 3 months, we would contribute a total of $15,750 (or a $1.16 cup of coffee per day). How hard is that?
I think their work is too important to let politics get in the way of their mission. Because in the end, it's all politics. Since the beginning of time. We've lived in a patriarchal society since the caveman was able to subjugate the female by the sheer power of his brute force--no brains required. Was this in God's Plan? Perhaps. But it's worth further analysis.
There is a very sick element
There is a very sick element in the Catholic Church that refuses to follow the teachings of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Christ's bride is the Catholic Church and only a man can be another Christ consecrating the Eucharist, anything else is man made and man (people) centered.
There is definitely a cancer growing in our Church that MUST be excised in order for Holy Mother Church to lead the faithful to Christ and to their eternal reward.
God help those who think they are above the doctrines of our faith.
I am Catholic and male, but
I am Catholic and male, but there is no way in hell that I will join with other males to identify ourselves as "Christ's bride". Good God Almighty!!!
Jesus ordained no one to sacred orders. The earliest Christian communities had their leaders (chosen/acknowledged) who, by virtue of such leadership, also presided at the sacred liturgies, i.e., "masses". These liturgical leaders were not ordained. Their duties at communal worship were two-fold: maintain order within the assembly and receive the gifts of the people for offering to God through Jesus the High Priest.
Even though our ancestors in the Christian faith did not have ordination or any kind of "priesthood" as we understand this term today, I doubt you would accuse them of lacking a valid eucharist. I doubt you would believe they did not receive the body and blood of Christ at communion.
Or would you???
On the other hand, I must totally agree with your observation that "[t]here is definitely a cancer growing in our Church that MUST be excised in order for Holy Mother Church to lead the faithful to Christ and to their eternal reward."
This "cancer" is most of our hierarchy.
The "fruits" of JPII's pontificate.
Joseph-Before making such
Joseph-Before making such unsupportable assertions may I suggest you pick up a couple of volumes of the Church Fathers and maybe Eusubius' Ecclesiastical History to learn what the early church belived in. Your just plain wrong.
Rather than take up space in
Rather than take up space in this thread, please see my comments on (a) Mass as sacrifice, (b) Foreshadowing, (c) Priestly function/History of orders, and (d) the Real Presence doctrine that were posted February 16 & 17, 2011, at http://www.ncronline.org/blogs/bulletins-human-side/can-pope-legislate-r...? My comments appear on page 2 of the thread.
Among my references on doctrinal history are:
a. J.N.D. Kelly's EARLY CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES, and
b. Jaroslav Pelikan's THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION: A HISTORY OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINE, VOL. 1: THE EMERGENCE OF THE CATHOLIC TRADITION (100 - 600).
Suffice it to say that both men were highly respected scholars in the field of historical theology (or theological history).
No, Gerard, I am anything *but* "plain wrong".
Ditto for my sources.
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