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PDF versionThe hidden exodus: Catholics becoming Protestants
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why
Apr. 18, 2011
Viewpoint
The number of people who have left the Catholic church is huge.
We all have heard stories about why people leave. Parents share stories about their children. Academics talk about their students. Everyone has a friend who has left.
While personal experience can be helpful, social science research forces us to look beyond our circle of acquaintances to see what is going on in the whole church.
The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening.
Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.
Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions. This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time.
Why do people leave the Catholic church to become Protestant? Liberal Catholics will tell you that Catholics are leaving because they disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control, women priests, divorce, the bishops’ interference in American politics, etc. Conservatives blame Vatican II, liberal priests and nuns, a permissive culture and the church’s social justice agenda.
One of the reasons there is such disagreement is that we tend to think that everyone leaves for the same reason our friends, relatives and acquaintances have left. We fail to recognize that different people leave for different reasons. People who leave to join Protestant churches do so for different reasons than those who become unaffiliated. People who become evangelicals are different from Catholics who become members of mainline churches.
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Spiritual needs
The principal reasons given by people who leave the church to become Protestant are that their “spiritual needs were not being met” in the Catholic church (71 percent) and they “found a religion they like more” (70 percent). Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.
In other words, the Catholic church has failed to deliver what people consider fundamental products of religion: spiritual sustenance and a good worship service. And before conservatives blame the new liturgy, only 11 percent of those leaving complained that Catholicism had drifted too far from traditional practices such as the Latin Mass.
Dissatisfaction with how the church deals with spiritual needs and worship services dwarfs any disagreements over specific doctrines. While half of those who became Protestants say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teaching, specific questions get much lower responses. Only 23 percent said they left because of the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality; only 23 percent because of the church’s teaching on divorce; only 21 percent because of the rule that priests cannot marry; only 16 percent because of the church’s teaching on birth control; only 16 percent because of the way the church treats women; only 11 percent because they were unhappy with the teachings on poverty, war and the death penalty.
The data shows that disagreement over specific doctrines is not the main reason Catholics become Protestants. We also have lots of survey data showing that many Catholics who stay disagree with specific church teachings. Despite what theologians and bishops think, doctrine is not that important either to those who become Protestant or to those who stay Catholic.
People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.
Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.
Catholics who became Protestant also claim to have a stronger faith now than when they were children or teenagers. Seventy-one percent say their faith is “very strong,” while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as “very strong” today as an adult.
Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.
Some of the common explanations of why people leave do not pan out in the data. For example, only 21 percent of those becoming Protestant mention the sex abuse scandal as a reason for leaving. Only 3 percent say they left because they became separated or divorced.
Becoming Protestant
If you believed liberals, most Catholics who leave the church would be joining mainline churches, like the Episcopal church. In fact, almost two-thirds of former Catholics who join a Protestant church join an evangelical church. Catholics who become evangelicals and Catholics who join mainline churches are two very distinct groups. We need to take a closer look at why each leaves the church.
Fifty-four percent of both groups say that they just gradually drifted away from Catholicism. Both groups also had almost equal numbers (82 percent evangelicals, 80 percent mainline) saying they joined their new church because they enjoyed the worship service. But compared to those who became mainline Protestants, a higher percentage of those becoming evangelicals said they left because their spiritual needs were not being met (78 percent versus 57 percent) and that they had stopped believing in Catholic teaching (62 percent versus 20 percent). They also cited the church’s teaching on the Bible (55 percent versus 16 percent) more frequently as a reason for leaving. Forty-six percent of these new evangelicals felt the Catholic church did not view the Bible literally enough. Thus, for those leaving to become evangelicals, spiritual sustenance, worship services and the Bible were key. Only 11 percent were unhappy with the church’s teachings on poverty, war, and the death penalty Ñ the same percentage as said they were unhappy with the church’s treatment of women. Contrary to what conservatives say, ex-Catholics are not flocking to the evangelicals because they think the Catholic church is politically too liberal. They are leaving to get spiritual nourishment from worship services and the Bible.
Looking at the responses of those who join mainline churches also provides some surprising results. For example, few (20 percent) say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teachings. However, when specific issues were mentioned in the questionnaire, more of those joining mainline churches agreed that these issues influenced their decision to leave the Catholic church. Thirty-one percent cited unhappiness with the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality, women, and divorce and remarriage, and 26 percent mentioned birth control as a reason for leaving. Although these numbers are higher than for Catholics who become evangelicals, they are still dwarfed by the number (57 percent) who said their spiritual needs were not met in the Catholic church.
Thus, those becoming evangelicals were more generically unhappy than specifically unhappy with church teaching, while those who became mainline Protestant tended to be more specifically unhappy than generically unhappy with church teaching. The unhappiness with the church’s teaching on poverty, war and the death penalty was equally low for both groups (11 percent for evangelicals; 10 percent for mainline).
What stands out in the data on Catholics who join mainline churches is that they tend to cite personal or familiar reasons for leaving more frequently than do those who become evangelicals. Forty-four percent of the Catholics who join mainline churches say that they married someone of the faith they joined, a number that trumps all doctrinal issues. Only 22 percent of those who join the evangelicals cite this reason.
Perhaps after marrying a mainline Christian and attending his or her church’s services, the Catholic found the mainline services more fulfilling than the Catholic service. And even if they were equally attractive, perhaps the exclusion of the Protestant spouse from Catholic Communion makes the more welcoming mainline church attractive to an ecumenical couple.
Those joining mainline communities also were more likely to cite dissatisfaction of the Catholic clergy (39 percent) than were those who became evangelical (23 percent). Those who join mainline churches are looking for a less clerically dominated church.
Lessons from the data
There are many lessons that we can learn from the Pew data, but I will focus on only three.
First, those who are leaving the church for Protestant churches are more interested in spiritual nourishment than doctrinal issues. Tinkering with the wording of the creed at Mass is not going to help. No one except the Vatican and the bishops cares whether Jesus is “one in being” with the Father or “consubstantial” with the Father. That the hierarchy thinks this is important shows how out of it they are.
While the hierarchy worries about literal translations of the Latin text, people are longing for liturgies that touch the heart and emotions. More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed. If you build it, they will come; if you do not, they will find it elsewhere. The changes that will go into effect this Advent will make matters worse, not better.
Second, thanks to Pope Pius XII, Catholic scripture scholars have had decades to produce the best thinking on scripture in the world. That Catholics are leaving to join evangelical churches because of the church teaching on the Bible is a disgrace. Too few homilists explain the scriptures to their people. Few Catholics read the Bible.
The church needs a massive Bible education program. The church needs to acknowledge that understanding the Bible is more important than memorizing the catechism. If we could get Catholics to read the Sunday scripture readings each week before they come to Mass, it would be revolutionary. If you do not read and pray the scriptures, you are not an adult Christian. Catholics who become evangelicals understand this.
Finally, the Pew data shows that two-thirds of Catholics who become Protestants do so before they reach the age of 24. The church must make a preferential option for teenagers and young adults or it will continue to bleed. Programs and liturgies that cater to their needs must take precedence over the complaints of fuddy-duddies and rubrical purists.
Current religious education programs and teen groups appear to have little effect on keeping these folks Catholic, according to the Pew data, although those who attend a Catholic high school do appear to stay at a higher rate. More research is needed to find out what works and what does not.
The Catholic church is hemorrhaging members. It needs to acknowledge this and do more to understand why. Only if we acknowledge the exodus and understand it will we be in a position to do something about it.
[Jesuit Fr. Thomas J. Reese, former editor in chief of America, is a senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University in Washington. He is working on a new book: Survival Guide for Thinking Catholics.]
This is an excellent article
This is an excellent article and one that should be read by all priests, bishops, cardinals, and the Pope!!!!!
Divorce and remarriage, but
Divorce and remarriage, but that wouldn't occur to someone so opposed to Church teaching that they would be willing to lose a job over it.
While I plan to remain
While I plan to remain Catholic, you are correct that Protestant and Orthodox churches are gaining members from the Catholic Church these people are leaving the church but not Christ. The Orthodox Church in America and some Protestant bishops can trace their roots directly back to the apostles in the same way Catholic bishops do. One of several reasons the Orthodox are a separate church is they believe all bishops are equal so the bishops acting together can remove a patriarch when they have cause.
All of the Orthodox and most Protestant groups that are growing have teachings on abortion, gays, and many other issues that are very similar to Catholic teaching. This means Catholic teaching is not reason a lot of people are leaving. Orthodox churches also have communion.
These churches they have not had as major child abuse problem because they quickly defrock those that abuse. The abuse crisis may be the reason my parish is smaller and may grow even smaller when our pastor retires. These other churches have married priests/ministers, when you allow married men to apply the pool of men who can become a priest is over 10 times greater, reducing the chance a predator can become a priest, and increasing the number of Priests.
It seems that The Church is
It seems that The Church is afraid of married clergy whether they be priests or deacons! The existing paradigm needs to change. If you are given the grace to be a minister to your fellow Catholics you need to understand we all stand together as the community of believers regardless of our role in that community. No divisions such as Bishop, priest, laity or "Faithful" please. A married clergy would narrow this gap if it is the individual's choice.
Only the people themselves
Only the people themselves can change the paradigm. The pope and the hierarchy will never do it.
The mainline protestants are
The mainline protestants are also losing numbers BIG time and they have married and female clergy so I do not see where that would be a solution.
It was the unfaithfulness, disobedience, and the failure to catechise that I think comtributed the most to the loss of souls.
Our Holy Mother Church is beautiful and will last until the end of time. Our Lord was certainly not concerned with numbers.
Be true to her.
I agree with your comments,
I agree with your comments, except with remaining Catholic. I believe that the child sex abuse crisis is the main reason Catholics are leaving the church. As a life-long Catholic, I recently have been unable to attend church, in good conscience, because of this abuse crisis. I don't want to condemn the entire Church for the small percentage of pedophile priests involved; however, it is a world-wide problem that the Vatican must aggressively and correctly resolve. It is a shame how the Church has mismanaged this criminal behavior within its walls. Someday, I would like to return, but not until the Vatican makes the safety and welfare of children a number "one" priority.
AS 63 YEAR OLDgrandma my main
AS 63 YEAR OLDgrandma my main concern is the future , my kids ect. , where will they be if safty issues continue, in the lives of abused catholic women and chidren ,battered women shelters take in many who the church have misguided and handed over to the securlar world for their surrvival .THIS is why my family left the church (a total now of 25 people).I still love my catholic friends but I lost the belief that the church loves us for anything but our money.
Then you, imho, are doing
Then you, imho, are doing exactly what Satan wants -- to destroy the church that Christ started. While the sex scandal affects all of us, we must always keep in mind that our faith is right; it's people that sin.
Actually, our Lord Jesus was
Actually, our Lord Jesus was NOT romanist. He was a Jew, and He never 'founded the romanist denomination'.
Do you know that there are
Do you know that there are over 80 documented cases of child abuse among orthodox Jews in NY alone? Just does not get the press. And there are more cases of child abuse in any metro school system than in the Catholic church in the whole country. Also, the abuses are from decades ago; the pedophiles have been pretty much cleaned out.
It does not take much for some folks to be scandalized and leave the Church and the sacramental life; easy pickins for the enemy of souls.
We are all sinners. The sins of another should not prevent us from seeing Christ in His Church.
B.XVI & JPII's STRATEGY.
B.XVI & JPII's STRATEGY. Anonymous, I agree this is an excellent article as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough. Joseph Ratzinger(Benedict XVI) is a very intelligent man. He is well aware he is losing faithful and spending billions on lawyers. Has he lost his mind? No, he is evidently following a strategic plan he and Karol Wojtyla (John Paul II) worked out during their 30 years of direct collaboration. The ultimate goal seems clearly to restore the pre-Vatican II absolute papal monarchy to rule over a smaller, but tightly controlled, church. This is not some conspiracy theory--it is the most plausible explanation for their approach to everything--doctrine, liturgy, bishops,celibacy, clerical child abuse, etc. I have set forth this plan in detail in my comment to Tom Fox/John Allen's April 18 NCR article entitled, "Why the rush to sainthood for Pope John Paul II". My comment is entitled "Hans Kung: It's a Farce." I hope you read my comment. I think it exlains well why the hierarchy has acted and continues to act in the manner it has acted. Pax.
LOL!
LOL!
In my perspective, people
In my perspective, people left or are leaving the Catholic Church for a variety of reasons. These include: the exclusively male hierarchy, authoritarian leadership in Rome and in archdioceses, misogeny, failure to embrace woman as candidates for the priesthood and as equal members in the Church, failure to embrace homosexuals, the priest pedophile scandal, teachings on birth control and sex. The list is long. How sad that the 'dynamimte of the Church's social teachings' (as Peter Maurin and Dorothy Day used to teach) are silent because the institution is on the wane. It will take someone like Pope John XXIII to throw open the windows again and complete the work of Vatican II. I left the Church and became a Quaker but I never became an angry ex-Catholic; I love and respect my religious tradition and Jesuit education too much not to care about the institution.
You present very good
You present very good reasoning on most of your points for why they are leaving. However you included not embracing homosexuals and birth control. Since the true Caatholic Church considers itself to be the only extension of God's hand on earth it would be impossible for them to relent on these two issues. Simply because both terms are already clearly in the Bible as forbidden. Now if you don't believe the Bible is the Word of the Creator God than make your statements without limit. Just PLEASE don't join the mix crowd who say that the Catholic Church must accomdate modern views of these issues.Man's views change God cannot chage. I congradulate those who are finding Livivng Water and exiting. My admonishment is to carry these two Godly Principles with you as we are to strive to please God and not man.
And where in the Bible is
And where in the Bible is birth control written to be a "sin?" And don't say Onan (sic)? He violated the Jewish law and it had nothing to do with procreation.And NFP or as we called it back in 1965, Roman roulette,is still a form of bc.
Thou shall not kill - oral
Thou shall not kill - oral contraceptives act as abortifacienta. Not to mention all forms of bc deny the procreative aspect of marriage. In other words, it is a central reason for today's "culture of death" that Pope Paul VI tried to warn us about in his 1968 Encyclical, "Humana Vitae".
Dear pj, you said, "Thou
Dear pj, you said,
"Thou shall not kill - oral contraceptives act as abortifacienta (sic)." This is simply NOT a medical fact.
While it is true there is a side effect to some BC pills that make the uterus less likely to implant a blastocyst, there are many cases of a failure of the BC pill even when taken correctly. When a woman is trying to conceive, not taking any hormones or medication, way over half, possibly as many of 80% of all conceived zygotes never reach implantation. These blastocysts are simply swept thought the uterus at a naturally high rate. This would make mother nature or God Himself into an abortionist if we use your logic. Finally many other medications and medical as well as physical conditions cause a uterus to be less likely to implant these fertilized structures.
Let's be clear the primary method that birth control pills work is to prevent ovulation. There are some side effects of the pill, that also may slightly decrease the birth rate. One of these side effects is the production of a large amount of cervical mucous preventing sperm to easily traverse the female system in numbers large enough to digest into a ovum so that one could penetrate the ovum causing a formation of a zygote. Another side effect is to cause a thinning of some uterine linings to make it less likely that a blastocyst would implant. None of these ways constitute a medical abortion that is the removal of an implanted embryo from a uterus.
So, pj, it is really nonsense to equate use of a bc pill to murder. The culture of death has more to do with lying about what is happening in our world and having an environment suitable to receive ever increasing numbers of humans. It has nothing to do with birth control. This is simply a fabrication used to argue about its usage.
R. Dennis Porch, MD
Dats true
Dats true
Contraception is against the
Contraception is against the whole theology of the body and of marriage. As a pharmacist, I was not taught in pharmacy school that BCs are abortifacient but they are. True, not the majority of the time. But even that is not the primary point of the evil of contraception. Pope Paul VI was prophetic in Humanae Vitae when he predicted what it would bring us to: the destruction of marriage and family (and ultimately society), increase in promiscuity and abortion even to forced abortions and so on.
The contraceptive mentality has lead to the deaths of 60 million unborn Americans since 1973. The killing of the unborn will not go unpunished.
Faith is a gift and it can be lost. Who will stand up for our faith and for the Truth when the going gets tough? Will you go the way of the world?
Ben, the bible is not the
Ben, the bible is not the rule of faith because it is a fatally flawed document; largely erroneous and designed as a public relations document designed by men. God having anything to do with is purely coincidental. Just as the idea of the pope as a fount of truth is a fluke rather than a divine guarantee.
If homosexuality and insanity are "disorders", they cannot possibly be a sin. The Church can't have it both ways. It will have to come into the 18th century eventually. Hope springs eternal.
I left the Church and became
I left the Church and became a Quaker but I never became an angry ex-Catholic; I love and respect my religious tradition and Jesuit education too much not to care about the institution.
Reading practically all of these comments is really frustrating for a former
Catholic who has found salvation and spiritual life in the bible. You "left the Church and became a Quaker" yet your comments indicate you are no nearer the truth of the Word as a "Quaker." Scripture , carefully studied, reveals that what has become known as "professing Christianity " or "Chrisiandom" is not really about Christ at all. A look at the comments on these articles always shows that even those leaving Catholicism are not searching for truth, only self-will in my opinion.
I agree that all members of
I agree that all members of the hierarchy should read this. Unfortunately, they probably won't. All Catholics should read this and feel empowered to demand change. In my experience, however, when you try to discuss change with a representative of the church, they take it as a personal threat and immediately play the bully.
Meanwhile at my "mainline protestant" church, I have access to a variety of worship formats (sometimes student led); adult education groups; high quality programs for children, teens, and young adults; and clergy who know the challenges of balancing work and family and who have experienced all of the the joys and sorrows that come with family life.
No, its trash.
No, its trash.
Having recently lost my
Having recently lost my daughter to a "non-denominational" christian group (I refuse to accept it as a "church" mostly because anyone off the street can be a "pastor" and there is no altar) I totally agree. Bishops at the local level need to convince the higher ups, including the Pope, that they need to rethink masses & encourage gatherings for things other then just mass. As much as I refuse to stop being Catholic myself, I do have to admit my daughter now seems more christian than I am, and has read & learned more from the Bible in the last 6 months then in 27 years as a Catholic.
Unfortunately most catholics
Unfortunately most catholics do not want to say what their gay and lesbian peers go through. Most whom I've spoken to have no idea what they are asking of others. When you stop and think about what it really means the result is that one no longer wants to be associated with it.
Whatever the reason, people
Whatever the reason, people are leaving the church in droves, and our privileged, isolated, self-absorbed male clerical caste is clueless. You'd think the bishops would put the Pew research at the top of their next agenda. They are probably afraid of stirring up papal ire by asking questions Rome is even less reluctant to deal with.
As a thick-headed Bronx Irish Catholic, I'm not about to leave the church. As the same time, I don't take the clergy or that Vatican all that seriously, so maybe that's why I stay. I sing with a really good choir and the music nourishes my soul. Most homilies certainly don't offer much spiritual or intellectual nourishment!
You must go to my church! We
You must go to my church! We occasionally hear informative scripture homily's, but those are like going to school. I want to be educated and inspired at the same time. I'm looking because it's not happening "here".
i left the catholic church 17
i left the catholic church 17 years ago and joined a bible taching baptist church. I have been nothing but blessed ever since. The key is believing that the bible is the literal word of GOD! The catholic church will teach you to fear GOD but you will never know the true love of GOD untill you have a personal relationship with GOD. You cannot know this love without knowing the word of GOD. Denominations, priests, popes, baptism, pastors connot save you only JESUS CHRIST can save you!
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Catechism (1405,1411) Only validly ordained priests can carry on the work of redemption.
I ask you, the reader, how can a man who is ordained a priest by the Catholic Church take away my sin or your sin? How can they carry on the work of redemption when the price has already been paid?
Some may say this is referring to the fact that only ordained priests can tell others about Jesus which is completely contrary to what the Bible teaches as we are all commissioned to go into the world to tell others the good news about Christ and his redemptive work.
When i left the catholic church my whole family turned against me and their is literal hatred towards me discovering this fact:
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
You must be born again! It wasn't till i left the catholic church that my spiritual hunger to know GOD was fullfilled by daily reading the word of GOD that I truly became born again and then joined the baptist church and was continued to be fed the truth of how much JESUS CHRIST loved me.
i recently had to attend a funeral at a catholic church where they had a mass ant the holy spirit convicted and showed me that what the priest said did not line up with what JESUS CHRIST said in HIS word.
My searching brother or sister please believe me when i tell you i love you in JESUS CHRIST that if you are not being fed spiritually and filled with the HOLY SPIRIT get out and join a bible believing and teaching church!
JESUS CHRIST IS COMMING BACK SOON AND YOU DONOT WANT TO BE LEFT BEHIND FOR THE TRIBULATION AND WRATH OF GOD!
I recommend the baptist church doctrine and remember denominations donot go to heaven only born again believers,
I thank GOD for showing me the truth, the way and the life.
Re 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
EBD NTB TTT
Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
EBD SME NTB TTT
Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
EBD NTB TTT
Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
NTB SCO TTT
Re 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
NTB TTT
Re 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
MAY GOD RICHLY BLESS YOU
dear believer, You are
dear believer,
You are SAVED!!!
Dear ICAS...It's May 10, 2012
Dear ICAS...It's May 10, 2012 and I am reading your post for the first time. What got to me was that not one priest was willing to answer your post as to why you might want to re-consider your position. You along with millions of others have been brain-washed right out of "His Church"...the one Jesus started. I too left Mother Church for 21 years...but thanks be to God, I returned because of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the Apostolic Succession, and the Authority of the Pope, the Magisterium, and our Sacred Traditions. I am not here to judge you, only to ask you to get on your knees and ask for Truth. When your "pastor" says this is a "symbol" of Christ Body and Blood...think...what were His words, (John 6:53 or thereabouts, read the whole Chapter), when two perfectly wonderful evangelical pastors cannot agree on the interpretation of scriptures, what do they do?? besides start another church 40,000 plus denominations and still growing because of "personal, I heard it from God" interpretations. And these are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the deposit of the faith preserved by the Catholic Church for 2 millennium...don't fight with me...just ask for Truth, and He will surely provide if you knock, seek, ask, and search.
Bill Wilson Thanks for this
Bill Wilson
Thanks for this post and also thanks to Father Reese. Bill you hit the nail on the head. My Protestant neighbors joyfully attend their UCC church for several hours on Sunday for fellowship and music and services. In the 1960's in the aftermath of Vatican ll I attended Mass each week for those reasons at a church in Philadelphia. And when I did research at an English University the same thing happened at the University Catholic Chapel. But now in my rural Catholic church we have a priest come for less than an hour on Saturday afternoon. And we have about 35-40 attending. We are mainly old, our singing struggles. Actually our preaching is good but we come and go and mix little. And we are lucky to have what we have.
Although I consider myself a
Although I consider myself a Catholic, and remain in the church, I do attend protestant and Jewish services, occasionally, and am very inspired by their music, fellowship, and homilies. I appreciate the women ministers and Jewish Rabbis and masses said by a woman priest, for the above reasons, also.
I find most Catholic liturgies, with the exception, of the few who focus on great musical liturgies, very lacking. My home church focuses on environment, the young people and evangelization... Our pastor, for example, put off the funeral of a fifty-year parishioner for two weeks, because he was "involved in too many activities (youth)" to have the mass within seven days. When I go to this church, monthly, I greet him with a "Hello, Father," He briefly responds, "Hello," looks away, then walks away. I faithfully give my $100.00 a month pledge to that church, plus other stypends to the others I attend -- it's only fair!
I prefer to attend a woman priest's mass in the area, which is in a Methodist space -- (the Catholic church would never condone her in a Catholic space) I find her real, I and extremely devout. Her homilies are so inspiring, and I feel God's presence there. I wish she could be there more than once a month -- but finances are very slim.
These data suggest that the
These data suggest that the catholic people have entered the final stage of americanization. The USA is characterized by readiness to change religion, albeit until recently mainly among protestant denominations.
Also, we are a highly mobile people. How much of the change occurs when one moves to a different city or suburb?
Leaving the Church is not
Leaving the Church is not endemic to the USA, these same things are happening in Europe, as well.
"catholic people have entered
"catholic people have entered the final stage of americanization"
Maybe it's is not the Americanization of Catholics but the hardheadedness of the hierarchy that is driving the people away. Issues such as the church's stand on birth control, pedophile priests, no respect for women, no respect for theologians, trying to turn the church into an absolute monarchy, secrecy, lack of accountability, etc., are the issues that turn people away.
The church leaders resemble the Pharisees not Christ.
The church's inability to connect to young people and bring a meaningful spirituality to them is turning the young away. As my twenty-three year old son says, 'the church is all about rules and regulations, not about God.'
Anyway, Ratzinger wanted a smaller more obedient church. He's got it.
It is not what Christ commanded. But that's just too bad.
Did you read the article??
Did you read the article?? It's NOT the teachings of the Church as much as it is the fact that the liturgies and homilies have become so bland and spiritually void of meaning. Change the culture of spiritual irrelevance and people will stay. But asking them to drink from dry wells will only cause them to seek elsewhere.
Oh, it's definitely church
Oh, it's definitely church teachings as an impetus in terms of why people leave the Catholic church.
Catholics are no longer swallowing the whole range of issues whether one talks about the inferiority of women, reproductive issues, end of life issues, stem cell research, the USCCB telling the laity how to vote, authority vs the laity, image of 'God' as male, "Father", etc. the supposed superiority of Catholicism over and against all other denominations, and this list can go on and on.
What the Catholic hierarchy consistently fails to realize, at their own peril btw, is that they are addressing a highly educated and discriminating laity who have not and continue to not bow to the hierarchy.
Those days are over, far fewer of the laity are so naive that they think the hierarchy channels "God" via auricular paths.
No one but the very naive and anxiety based, fear based individuals still in the Catholic church believes any of it.
It's definitely the -----teachings----- and it is sheer folly to deny that glaring fact.
Elizabeth.....you said it
Elizabeth.....you said it PERFECTLY! "The church leaders resemble the Pharisees not Christ"......somehow the most important aspect of worship, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, becomes......lost. Also, the inability to connect to young people is huge, albeit, not just in the Catholic Church.....our youth are our future.....we need to show them how Christ fits so perfectly into their lives.......so important that they feel his love and want to pour it out to others.
As someone who worked in
As someone who worked in youth ministry with high school youth for 20 years I can guarantee you that within a parish that supports their young people you will find HIGH school age youth that are very much connected to their faith. These were NOT Catholic high school youth but public school youth in a parish in Illinois in which we promoted youth ministry. We understood that the youth were a part of the parish and not the only component of the parish. From those years of hard work we had three young men enter the seminary. We also had several young men and women choose to study theology when they went off to college. One of the young men going so far as to receive his Doctorate and he is now a Professor at Benedictine University in Atchison,Ks. It is possible to create a parish that is true to the teachings, faith filled, and appeals to all ages. It does take a huge effort. A leadership team on many fronts and most of all a Pastor who is willing to make an investment in his parish. The Church offers many opportunities that our youth can plug in on a national level too. National Catholic Youth Conference draws about 25,000 high school youth every other year. March for Life has thousands of young people attend on a yearly basis. Our young people are hungry for a Worthy Adventure. Christ brings that to them. We just have to be advocates and help them see it in their own parish home!! It is possible. I did it in a town of 20,000 with $125 mo. to use towards whatever needed to be done.
Lastly they are the Church of Today!! That is evident by the numbers that are choosing to leave at a ripe young age of 24. For too long we have told them you can do this tomorrow, or next year or in ten years. As Church we need to train, equip, and enable our young people for a lifetime of service.
Praying for our parishes daily!!
Amen, Elizabeth! The
Amen, Elizabeth!
The "hardheadedness of the hierarchy" is a consequence of unbridled power--which they assume had always been undistortedly bestowed from God.
I am reminded of Lord Acton, the 19th Century observer at Vatican I who warned us that "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Ironically, he first wrote these words to a bishop to express his dismay over Pope Pius IX's proclamation of "papal infallibility."
In spite of the hypocritical Pharisees encountered by Jesus, they also contained some righteous souls. Perhaps a modern Nicodemus shall arise to enlighten the flock.
"Americanization". Is this
"Americanization". Is this the short version of 'apostasy'?
Uh no, Gail. It's all about
Uh no, Gail. It's all about the ideals of America and the roots of those ideals (you know, democracy) and it's about being an ---- adult----.
Got it? Any more questions??
You're right. We are
You're right. We are "americanized". But that's not a bad thing. I believe dissent and how and why "America happened".
What about those who stay and
What about those who stay and become neutral to the idealogical issues? They simply go their own way ignoring the latest pronouncements of bishops who in the unerring certainty of their own minds are wise and just until they open their mouths?
They 'adapt' the RCC to fit their own needs and ignore what doesn't. They do not become apathetic; otherwise they wouldn't bother to follow their own course. It is this group, whom I suspect is quite large, that may have the most impact on Catholicism of the future.
Yet we can't be certain of much, even with studies, because the RCC is so sick people may just answer surveys like the ones mentioned with what they feel are 'acceptable' answers (even though the surveys are probably corrected for this; from my talks with people I doubt the 'corrections' are adequate).
Amen to this!!! I am over 65
Amen to this!!! I am over 65 and have a large family. It would really upset the family apple cart for me to leave. And where would I go? Jesus' words to the Samaritan woman about a time coming of worshipping the Father in Spirit and truth are coming to pass. This is how I worship. The liturgy at our church is meaningful, the pastor is an intelligent, kind and compassionate human being and so I stay. I ignore the pronouncements of the bishops and the Vatican. As far as I am concerned, they are a country club of control freaks who use the trappings of religion for their own agendas. I do not sense any connection to the people of God. I will use this church as a vehicle just as they do but I will worship the one true God and try with every fiber of my being to be what I was born to be...to be holy. Will they? I seriously question their motives.
If there is a split with Rome, and I think there will be, I will follow the people of God.
you say it well. and I too
you say it well.
and I too have a wonderful parish, excellent pastor who draws people. I once suggested that he might have the beginning of a cult. He was horrified saying [and rightly so] that all he wants to do is point to Jesus. He does and we are blessed.
I'm a Christ-centered
I'm a Christ-centered Catholic and I, too, use the church as a vehicle to worship God. I take that as the heart, the rest are peripherals. .
Perhaps when the church
Perhaps when the church begins to actually follow the teachings of Christ, the hemorrhaging will stop. It behaves like a corporation, not a spiritual program.
Anon, Your comment without
Anon, Your comment without qualification is simply fightin words. The truth here lies in the middle. However it should be acknowledged that the lord of the harvest is the one who calls and His Son tends the Sheep as the Church is hardly a human organization-though the presence of so many obvious sinners does test the faith. I would say that many of the folks entering schismatic Protestant Churches is a hunger for stricter rules and prefer a certain kind of relationship with the Saviour rather than a Catholic relationship which is in truth, the only authentic relationship with the Lord in the blessed Trinity. Sadly this Newspaper is a key driver to many who have left... Pray to the lord of the harvest...
"I would say that many of the
"I would say that many of the folks entering schismatic Protestant Churches is a hunger for stricter rules...."
Did you even read this article?
It specifically said that people are NOT leaving because they want stricter rules.
We have a terribly polarized society now-a-days. People don't want to see their own personal agendas muddled by "facts." So, when they read an article that contradicts their world view, they ignore those parts.
Come on people. We are not going to even get to a place where we accurately NAME the problem, never mind solve the problem, until we are willing to listen to reality.
Jesus gave us a beautiful vision of the Kingdom. Our vision as a Church should be producing authentic disciples who are fully invested in his mission. You know what that mission is? "Feed my sheep!"
It is also a key driver for
It is also a key driver for many who have stayed. People leaving for evangelical protestantism are indeed looking for more rules. The Lord of Love was not into the letter of rules, He was into the spirit of rules. In the end spirituality is not about rules, it is about relationships---and expressing Love through relationships.
Yes! I cannot agree more!
Yes! I cannot agree more! What the Catholic church teaches does NOT line up with the Bible. "Call no man father"
Forgiving sins to a priest for him to mediate to God? Well...what about "For there is one mediator between God and mankind, the man Jesus Christ."
Infant baptism? "Repent and be baptized." Can a baby repent? No. It was a council that invented infant baptism. The bible (which Catholics don't read) even says that you must be reborn to enter into the kingdom of heaven.
I could go on and on... Who needs a "catechism" when ALL you need in God's Word, THE BIBLE, not man's word.
Last Sunday my wife and I
Last Sunday my wife and I were visiting our son and daughter-in-law and our new grandson in Orlando. John invited us to attend the Summit, a non-denomination church. Music was upbeat and even traditional hymns had a beat, and the pastor's homily and exogesis of Scripture would have passed the catholic smell test, and soared onward and upward from there showing how the scripture readings apply in our lives, here and now. You should see the young families and kids...unbelievable, and the many, many programs and activiies they had going on for each age group...WOW, WOW.....WOW...This chuch now has 3 campuses in Orlando and a budget that started in 2002 with $85,000 in now $4.5 million. No wonder my son and daughter in law want to have our grandson baptized there. My son was raised catholic and went to an all boys catholic high school, but wants nothing to do with the very old and tired and lifeless catholic parishes in his area....and I certainly can't blame him....I am happy that he has found a spiritual home....I wished it had been in the RC traditionWOW...I challenge the heirarchy to attend in congnito one of these services.
I challenge the heirarchy to attend in congnito one of these services, but I doubt any of them have the courage or humility to do it....unfortuately, even if they do go and see what "could be", it is probably too late....they continue to miss the boat....so, so sad
Aloha Frank, Your post led me
Aloha Frank,
Your post led me to write something below. I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. I echo your challenge...they really need to witness what a born-again, alive in the Holy Spirit church, is all about. Ohhh, what a difference!! I quote from Albert Boudreau's book, "The Born Again Catholic", first line of the preface, "At every Sunday Mass I see men and women looking for something - yet apparently not finding it"..."God is alive today, and He reawakening men's hearts as never before".
"Let us all be Baptized in the Spirit", Our Pope, 5/13/2008, Zenit News Agency
There are a very few
There are a very few (emphasis --- VERY FEW) Catholic parishes who have learned from the success of places like you describe above. Unfortunately they are hard to find.
Here is one in the Chicago area that is worth the drive: http://www.holyfamilyparish.org/welcome-info/directions_and_contacts.htm
Yes, certain large Protestant
Yes, certain large Protestant churches are better at building community/mutual support than Catholic churches. Both will have "in crowds" but the Protestants make sure there is person-to-person action for all members. This is extraordinarily important for young families, especially in otherwise social and cultural deserts. I have been making this point for ages when I hear liberals knock the evangelical churches for their doctrines or politics. Community building is more important than opinion making.
Maybe Catholic priest should be obliged to intern at these community-building churches.
I also believe that community-building churches will eventually re-evangelize Europe, especially in Catholic areas.
Could be? You must be
Could be? You must be kidding! Mr. Puthoff you have certainly shortchanged your son. Perhaps you were shortchanged by your parents. At Mass, you have the perfect sacrifice. You have the priest (who act in persona Christi -God), offering Christ (God)in the Eucharist, to the Father (God). You have the Son offering Himself to the Father. As it is required to consume the Sacrifice we receive the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist. No Protestant denomination can offer this. A nice homily is great, but even if the priest can't even speak intelligible English, what takes place at the Mass is so infinitely superior to anything that takes place at any Protestant service as to be beyond comparison. People who say they don't get anything out of the Mass totally miss the point. They should not be concerned with what they get, they should be concerned with what they give to God in the Mass - the worship and adoration He deserves. If they will do that they will receive more than they could ever imagine from the Mass. I feel so sorry for you and your family. I will pray for you.
People like John put me off
People like John put me off the church.
John, Jason, Jo Ann, and all
John, Jason, Jo Ann, and all you other believers in "the real presence" (of Christ in the Eucharistic host), I would like to ask you a question, as a former priest and "enactor" of that "miracle".
When I became what you might call an "apostate" priest, and became a heretic who believes that teaching to be part of a whole web of hierarchical manipulation of the Catholic faithful, do you think that God rejected ME and MY kind of clergy while choosing instead to have his body transmitted to Catholics like you through the hands of clergyman who gave you communion at the altar and then went back to the sacristy or the rectory and told children they were corrupting that it was sacramental for them to stimulate the genitals of "faithful" priests like themselves?
If that's what you want you believe, then your God is one SICK PUPPY !
By the way, while these loyal priests or yours were thus engaged, THIS "apostate" priest was adopting five children who were expected to be handicapped. (Three were indeed severely handicapped for life, two others grew into very healthy normal children.)
Wow? Your son has fled to a
Wow? Your son has fled to a building with a concert going on and, if he's lucky, non-heretical teaching.
There is no valid priesthood, which means no sacramental absolution, and no Eucharist. But I guess none of that matters in the "lifeless" Catholic Church.
I know this will not go over well here, but the Holy Catholic Church will be around, warts and all, when your son's mega"church" has been paved over for a parking lot.
The best sermon I heard last
The best sermon I heard last year was by a woman in a Methodist Church. The core of the article is this: "Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith."
Catholic liturgies tend to have the following defects: lack of community, lack of charitable projects on which the community are involved, ill-prepared sermons, badly read Scripture readings, lack of scriptural culture or joy in Scripture, bad music badly performed, routine performance of the ritual and recitation of the prayers, no overall preparation. People who rant about the doctrines of the Real Presence and the Sacrifice are wasting their breath unless this basic defectiveness of liturgical culture can be remedied; or rather their rants are toxic, for they often come from people who have no concern with a living, creative, communal liturgy, but are blocking the formation of such. The forthcoming new translations will further compound all these problems.
Wow! Sounds just like the
Wow! Sounds just like the legalistic crap you hear from the Bishops. Who says that Christ is not present in the Eucharist within the Protestant denominations? Jason forgets....it was Jesus that said "Where two or three are gathered, there I will be." To dismiss millions of Christians who are ot Catholic is so typical of people like Jason- elitists who have little understanding of the call of the Spirit.
Protestants say that. They
Protestants say that. They specifically teach that the Eucharist isn't the body of Christ.
Not all Protestants. A great
Not all Protestants. A great many Lutherans, for instance, profess the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. It would be good to avoid lumping people into large, unhomogeneous categories.
What's so sad is that your
What's so sad is that your son has left Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and you're glad "he has found a spiritual home." What's sad is that after years of Catholic schooling, your son probably doesn't even know what the Mass is and what he is leaving.
There is only one Church and it is the Catholic Church. Yes, the Church is very sick, but that doesn't make Summit or any other denomination the Church founded by Christ.
Even though I grew up with the New Mass, my family now attends the traditional Latin Mass exclusively. Talk about young (and large) families! The sermons are solid and Catholic.
Instead of "upbeat," the music is sacred, condusive to prayer and meditation before the Christ who is present body, blood, soul and divinity. I'm not giving that up for any Disneyworld "church."
Amen! I haven't read all of
Amen! I haven't read all of the comments so far but there seeems to be an absence of acknowledgement of "THE REAL PRESENCE"--- the difference with the Catholic Church and all others. No one, but no one, has the Body and Blood of Jesus in the tabernacle and given to us at Mass, except the Catholic Church. Notice the emphasis is all "about me, us"- just look at their songs/hymns) rather than a vertical worship to God. If those who left realized that, why would they leave? As Peter said: "Where would I go Lord?". I belong to a Traditional Parish ( Latin Gregorian/Tridentine Mass)packed to the rafters on Sunday,and a sizeable number on weekdays, with many teens and younger children. They are not about to leave. We have it all!
You STILL don't understand.
You STILL don't understand. Christ came for ME, he died for ME, he forgave MY sins and continues to do so. The reason He came into this world was to save US. Most importantly, it's what Christ did for ME and NOT the other way around!
For God so loved the world that He gave us his only begotten Son....
Yes there is the real presence but it is WORTHLESS if I don't have a relationship with Christ. Just because we have the real presence doesn't mean automatic salvation. Many Catholics go through the motions, and then you have the strict rubric followers that chastise you for not genuflecting properly, not doing this, not doing that,not following devotions and rules, Latin mumbo jumbo... all garbage. Christ wants my heart not my pharisee behavior and he doesn't care if I forget to genuflect.
Most catholics mistake performing devotions with attaining salvation, then behaving like pagans and calling others heretics as some of you do.
He did it for ME, yes it's all about ME and my relationship with Christ and NOT what I can do to save myself or yourself. THIS IS WHATS MISSING IN THE CHURCH NOW. ONCE you've realized this, what Christ has done for YOU then bringing others to Christ and yes, to the real presence, makes you close to the Kingdom. That is when the hemorrhaging will STOP!
What is sad is that so many
What is sad is that so many Catholics do not realize that the official version of the "real presence" is just a human construct designed to make the laity dependent on the clergy. When Jesus said "This is my body," he was simply stating a fact: He is incarnate in our world. Of course he is fully present in the Eucharist. He is also fully present in a hamburger. What is special about the Eucharist is that the congregation recognizes the body of Christ in the bread that is the communal meal. That's what Protestant churches don't have. At least I don't think they do.
The constant need to state
The constant need to state that your Church is the "one true Church" has more to do with human ego than anything else. Could it not be that the basic requirements for a "True Church" ar a belief in God and the effort to lead a good life is the "True Church".
It does not matter what building you worship in nor what religious organization you belong to as long as you belive. There are many Churches, when it comes to naming a "True Church", that is only an opnion, nothing more. You have your opinion and I have mine. Niether of us really knows.
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