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PDF versionWhy do people leave their churches?
The vast majority have 'just gradually drifted away'
Apr. 29, 2009
Think former parishioners have left the pews because of sex scandals? Or because they no longer believe in God?
While some have departed for those reasons, the vast majority of former Catholics and former Protestants who are now unaffiliated with any faith have "just gradually drifted away," according to the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.
The new analysis, called "Faith in Flux: Changes in Religious Affiliation in the U.S.," found that 71 percent of both former Catholics and former Protestants said their decision to leave happened over time, unprompted by any one-time event. The report was released April 27.
"For many people, religious change is not a decision that's reached at a particular point in time after careful deliberation of the pros and cons," said Greg Smith, research fellow at the Washington-based Pew Forum. "There's really a ... gradual element to it."
The new study is a follow-up to a wide-ranging Pew study of 35,000 Americans last year. The earlier study found, among other things, that 44 percent of Americans had moved away from the faith of their childhood, and one in 10 Americans are former Catholics. The new study tried to tease out the reasons behind those changes.
When former Catholics were asked specifically about clergy sex-abuse scandals, just 27 percent of those who are now unaffiliated, and 21 percent of Protestant converts, said it was an important reason for leaving the church. When asked an open-ended question, less than 3 percent of former Catholics cited pedophilia scandals as the main reason they left the church.
"The poster child of former Catholics is a disaffected teenager," said Catholic researcher Mark Gray, not a parade of angry parishioners storming out over sex abuse or teachings with which they disagree. "This is about youth coming of age and not feeling connected to their faith."
Catholic leaders have tried to respond, said Gray, of Georgetown University's Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate, with initiatives like "Theology on Tap" sessions for 20-somethings at bars and the Vatican's YouTube channel.
pewstudy: Most of those who decided to leave their childhood faith say they did so before reaching age 24, and a large majority say they joined their current religion before reaching age 36. Very few report changing religions after reaching age 50.For people who changed affiliations within Protestantism, the key reasons for departing their childhood religion are finding a religion they liked better (58 percent) or unmet spiritual needs (51 percent).
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Michael Lindsay, a sociologist of religion at Rice University, said the findings show that people are making individualized decisions about their faith and are not driven by feelings of betrayal over a pastor's scandal, for example, or how their kids were treated in the church nursery.
"Both among Catholics and Protestants ... it's more about sort of personal decision-making as opposed to discontent with somebody else," he said.
Less than half of people who are now unaffiliated said that the reason for their withdrawal from faith was because they "just do not believe in God" or most religious teachings. Forty-two percent of former Catholics felt this way, as did 39 percent of former Protestants.
An even smaller percentage of former Catholics and Protestants -- 32 percent -- said "modern science proves religion is superstition" and about a quarter of them cited that as an important reason for their disaffiliation.
"The sort of presumed conflict between religion and science doesn't seem to be driving people away from the faith," Lindsay said.
Overall, the reasons for changing faiths can range from disagreement with specific church tenets to seeking a new way to worship to marrying outside a childhood religion.
"I was struck in these data by the degree to which the reasons that people give for having changed religions are every bit as diverse as the religious landscape itself," said Smith. "You cannot point to a single reason."
For those who are now unaffiliated, though, three-quarters saw religious people as hypocritical, judgmental and insincere; slightly more than 50 percent cited that image as an important reason why they are no longer affiliated with a faith.
But one in three of the unaffiliated appear open to return to a faith in the future, saying they "just have not yet found the right religion for them."
Among ex-Catholics, 65 percent who are now unaffiliated said they "stopped believing" in church teaching," along with 50 percent of those who became Protestants. Asked about the Catholic Church's specific teachings on abortion and homosexuality, 56 percent of former Catholics who are now unaffiliated said it was an important reason for their departure, compared to 23 percent of former Catholics who are now Protestant.
The follow-up study to last year's U.S. Religious Landscape Survey involved follow-up interviews with more than 2,800 people. The margin of error varied, from plus or minus 6.5 percentage points for those raised Catholic and now unaffiliated, to plus or minus 10 percentage points for those who were born and remain unaffiliated.
Because of the small sample size, researchers were unable to probe deeply into several groups of converts: the 3 percent of Protestants who became Catholics; or the 4 percent of Protestants and 3 percent of Catholics who embraced another faith.
Experts said the findings -- which also indicated that many people change faith more than once in their lifetimes -- may give hope, or at least guidance, to religious leaders, who often don't learn the specific reasons why worshippers leave their faith.
"It suggests there is a market out there," said Lindsay. "If you lose somebody, it doesn't necessarily mean you lose them for the rest of your career. If we're thinking of it like a religious marketplace, you might lose the customer for a year, but you might bring them back with a new product line."
Among ex-Catholics, 65
Among ex-Catholics, 65 percent who are now unaffiliated said they "stopped believing" in church teaching:
Example:
A brief timeline of INCONSISTENT Church teaching on Abortion:
Circa 100 to 150 CE: The Didache (also known as "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles"), was a document written for the guidance of Christians. It forbade all abortions.
Prior to 380 CE: Many Christian leaders issued unqualified condemnations of abortion. So did two church synods in the early 4th century:
Circa 380 CE: The Apostolic Constitutions allowed abortion if it was done early enough in pregnancy. But it condemned abortion if the fetus was of human shape and contained a soul.
St. Augustine (354-430 CE) accepted the Aristotelian Greek Pagan concept of "delayed ensoulment". He wrote that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. 3 Thus, early in pregnancy, an abortion is not murder because no soul is destroyed (or, more accurately, only a vegetable or animal soul is terminated).
Pope Innocent III (1161-1216): He determined that a monk who had arranged for his lover to have an abortion was not guilty of murder if the fetus was not "animated" at the time.
Early in the 13th century, he stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. Before that time, abortion was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human person, not an actual human person.
Pope Sixtus V (1588) issued a Papal bull "Effraenatam" which threatened those who carried out abortions at any stage of gestation with excommunication and the death penalty.
Pope Gregory XIV (1591) revoked the previous Papal bull and reinstated the "quickening" test, which he determined happened 116 days into pregnancy (16½ weeks).
Pope Pius IX (1869) dropped the distinction between the "fetus animatus" and "fetus inanimatus." The soul was believed to have entered the pre-embryo at conception.
Leo XIII (1878-1903): He Issued a decree in 1884 that prohibited craniotomies. This is an unusual form of abortion used under crisis situations late in pregnancy. It is occasionally needed to save the life of the pregnant woman.
He issued a second degree in 1886 that prohibited all procedures that directly killed the fetus, even if done to save the woman's life.
Canon law was revised in 1917 and 1983 to refer simply to "the fetus." The church penalty for abortions at any stage of pregnancy was, and remains, excommunication.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c.htm
Too bad you are so focused on
Too bad you are so focused on abortion that you cant see anything else. Such as a majority of people leave the catholic church because the leadership simply cannot and will not tell the truth. Cannot and will not open their eyes and see that "one true church" is the biggest of the deceitful messages. "Abortion is all that matters" is another. "The catholic church is the only way to salvation" is another.
Lies and deceit by those in leadership position, especially lies and deceit about spiritual matters is the reason that people leave. Abortion is only one issue, and it is an issue that the bishops in the US are exploiting in order to secure their own power base, a power base that they have squandered away by their alliegiences to the Republican Party, alliegiences to a doctrine of hate and war.
If the same emphasis had been placed on truth, honesty and integrity, and practiced by those in leadership, the catholic church would be strong and vibrant today, instead of a church where those leaving outnumber those joining by 4 to 1.
The truth is, your reponse to the article is a brilliant example of the narrow minded self serving attitude that drives so many catholics away.
Jesus gave us a commandment:
Jesus gave us a commandment: love one another. This includes clergy, unborn, enemies, etc.
The reason why people have
The reason why people have left the Church in my opinion is pretty straight forward. One cannot adequately live a truly Christian life if they refrain from at least a moderate level of Christian witness. Turn on any comedy program, wait a few minutes and there will be a parody of people of the Christian Faith. Either a mocking of Jesus Himself, or of Catholicism, or of geographic areas of the world described as "jesusland". Take a look at the northern European countries (e.g. Sweden) wherein religion is deemed to be "so private & personal" that it is not in good taste to even speak of it. Aty the beginning of the last cventury, the Protestant Church in Sweden took this view in "hook line and sinker", fooling themselves that the reason why people did not talk of Jesus was because they were so thoroughly convicted that He is God come in the flesh. It turned out, that in as short as two generations, the Swedish Churches are now museums and Christianity is viewed as "quaint". Sadly, this view is being propagated throughout the rest of the world (esp. in Canada) under a spurious type of "tolerance" that is commonly called "multiculturalism". Every baptized Christian has immense dignity, they should manifest it by tastefully and respectfully asserting their faith in Jesus Christ-God come in the flesh. The only Mediator between God and the human race is Jesus Christ our Lord. He is our only hope! Christ is Risen! Alleluia! Alleluia!
Snowdrop, did you pick your
Snowdrop, did you pick your psuedonymn from G.K. Chesterton's book, The Man Who was Thursday? From one of the riddles Sunday gave the six detectives: "...from little snowdrop"?
I've stopped believing in
I've stopped believing in "the Church". The leadership, both local and worldwide have made that decision for me. The church Christ founded may have once been there - but it appears to have moved on. I still attend - because I still believe in what the Church ought to be about. If I ever find it somewhere else, I'll go there in a shot.
"Why is it that a church
"Why is it that a church founded by a man who walked on water is now often administered by mean, mindless men who walk on the manure of guilt and betrayal and who prefer to flay consciences rather than to read the book of John? It’s awfully hard to subordinate one’s love of God to the rules of earthly ministers."
Tim Unsworth, “And Another Thing That Bugs Me.” From his book of articles from the National Catholic Reporter (Acta Publications, 2008)
"Jesus' promise that the church would always endure does not necessarily mean that it will endure everywhere."
Msgr. John Tracy Ellis.
"Jesus founded a church, not a school or a magisterium, and he organized a college of apostles, not of rabbis, and he proclaimed love, not torah."
John McKenzie, S.J.
I left because of the
I left because of the arrogance of the hierarchy, the churches obsession with what goes on in people's bedrooms, the way it treats women and its medieval mindset. The RC church has missed the gospel message and has focused on the concerns of the vocal right wing element to the exclusion of the rest of us.
Amen Women are the most
Amen Women are the most faithful in the church. The hierachy treat woman as occasions of sin, lesser people, and let them do all the work of teaching, nursing, and maintaining the laity in faith--but never give power to the women who dedicate their lives to God and family by using the Bible text written in the first century in countries similar to today's Middle East Muslim countries as an example of what God wants. God loves woman who serve Him faithfully. Could He feel women who want to be priests don't deserve the same treatment as his other creation, man. I am a practicing Catholic, but it grates me to see class diferences in the clergy and our faithful sisters and married women treated as less than the men in the Church. That is archiac. If priests married, they might have better insights into women's love and devotion to God. The hierachy is unfortunately isolated in some kind of men's clique as established by Church rules. It will be hard for this system to change without these men changing their thinking.
For every person who joined
For every person who joined the Catholic Church, nearly 4 other persons left the Catholic Church.
It would appear that Benedict is, indeed, getting his "smaller but purer" church.
It's the "purer" part that concerns me.
For me, after a Roman
For me, after a Roman Catholic childhood(Baltimore Catechism in its last gasp and CCD, and public school) graduating from an RC college and law school, I slowly drifted away. I saw too many parishes where one could be, and in some sense was encouraged to be, a stranger. The pastor would not even know you existed unless you pressed forward, and in the large size of Catholic suburban parishes, most of the laity were anonymous.
Then came the encyclical on human sexuality, and Catholic couples then and now ignored it, and practiced birth control. Were they excommunicated, or even reprimanded? No, but God forbid you mentioned ending clericalism, or celibacy or even real financial transparency on the parish and diocesan level. You reaped the whirlwind if you dared to suggest limiting the power of the old boys network to run the show. Pray, Pay and Obey. Protestant fundamentalism had no attraction for me as it is anti-intellectual, anti-science and lacks anything transcendent or numinous. For a while I was simply your sleep-in on Sunday lapsed Catholic. This was not acceptable, so I found a home in a mainline church. The recent developments with the SSPX folks, the Maciel affair, the hateful misogyny and homophobia so casually displayed on these posts by some, and the total refusal to punish bishops who failed to protect the children give me no cause to regret my choice.
The social research of the
The social research of the Pew studies is very good, and the comments lend substance to fill out the issues. I liked the comment made by "For me, after a Roman..." We raised 4 children who are now in their 30s. Today they are distant from the Church. I think the real issues is that the Church itself has created the distance from them.
The Church has focused most of its efforts on being "medieval." Right wing conservatives are more interested in returning the Church to the late middle ages and the Renaissance than in being Christian today. The core of the Christian message is neglected and is being lost, and that is the main reason why Catholics are becoming disaffected with the Church. The danger we face is "medievalism."
The social research of the
The social research of the Pew studies is very good, and the comments lend substance to fill out the issues. I liked the comment made by "For me, after a Roman..." We raised 4 children who are now in their 30s. Today they are distant from the Church. I think the real issues is that the Church itself has created the distance from them.
The Church has focused most of its efforts on being "medieval." Right wing conservatives are more interested in returning the Church to the late middle ages and the Renaissance than in being Christian today. The core of the Christian message is neglected and is being lost, and that is the main reason why Catholics are becoming disaffected with the Church. The danger we face is "medievalism."
I can only speak from
I can only speak from personal experience and what I have seen from my peers.
I believe that a lot of young people leave the Church because what they have been taught from an early age all the way up to college.....is a faith completely watered down and focused on such things as "social justice", "multi-culturalism", "inclusiveness", etc. My friends who have left said that they wanted to hear something of Jesus...basically wanting to better their relationship with Christ and learn how to pray better. Instead, all that they have learned as Catholics was helping the poor, the idea of male leadership is always bad and Church priests/bishops can't be trusted, saving the environement, and the like.
I remember one girl (who was and still remains a personal friend of mine) who was in campus ministry with me in college; she left the faith completely after one day she had decided that she had enough of our campus minister's "ideas" of establishing an inclusive, Post-Christian, church...not focused on God...but on social justice!!?!??!!! Talking about idolatry! When has "social justice" replaced the worship of Almighty God in the Catholic church?!?!??! So, my friend left Catholic campus ministry (and the Church) in tears because of our Call-To-Action campus minister....never to step into a Catholic church ever again.
Some people will say that our liturgies are so outdated and 'irrelevant' to young people....but these young Catholics only know of the post-Vatican II "anything-goes" liturgies! They know nothing of polyphony, chant, etc....because those things have been thrown out by most parishes 40 years ago! Yes....the liturgies of the 60's, 70's, and 80's are outdated....they are silly and most young people don't think that there is anything beautiful about singing "kumbaya" and holding hands in a circle! It's no wonder why young people, who stay Catholic, are flocking to traditional Masses (and I am not talking about just extraordinary Masses...but also the NEW MASS of Paul VI in Latin!).
The ideal program (in my opinion) for Catholic young people can be found at the St. John's Newman center at the University of Illinois (Champaign-Urbana). They (St. John's) have a program where not only young Catholics STAY Catholic...but grow so strong in their faith that they are able to evangelize to the greater University of Illinois community...especially students who are unchurched. A variety of 'styles' of Masses are offered...from contemporary to a Latin Novus Ordo. THIS and teaching the truths of Catholicism are what students want....not someone else's personal agendas and/or personal beliefs.
Perhaps you should think
Perhaps you should think about changing your screen name to ConservativeCatholic20something.
I guess Jesus didn't mean it
I guess Jesus didn't mean it when he said to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned and so on as you would be doing it to HIM. I guess he didn't mean it when at the last supper, he showed his disciples what it means to follow him by washing their feet. I guess he didn't mean we should follow in his footsteps by including all the social outcasts and sinners as he did and for which he was scolded by those who wanted purity. Sounds like he wanted social work done just as he was doing.
I'll follow Jesus over a church that says rules are more important than people something else Jesus took issue with.
Friend, please read the
Friend, please read the Gospels again (unless you haven't read them all the way through yet.) Social justice, multi-culturism and inclusiveness is all you'll find there. You won't find any rubricks, any solemn hocus-pocus, any hierarchical worship. Do Catholics worship the God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as the "universal church" or are we an exclusive club as we piously finger our strings of beads? The Jesus I worship DID focus his ministry on social justice, multiculturism and inclusion. So, don't blame the young people if they don't know the "Jesus" you "worship." They can't find him is their Bibles.
One of my good friends from
One of my good friends from Catholic campus ministry in college lost her faith because of the words and actions of our campus minister who was also a member of Call To Action and the Women's Ordination Conference.
My friend was sincerely trying to grow in her relationship in Christ, but instead she was jeered and condemned by our nutjob campus minister for not being 'socially' or 'politically' active. She just wanted to grow in her faith in Jesus!
Instead of our campus minister teaching the faith to us, all we got was "social justice" stuff that was constantly shoved down our throats. Another student in campus ministry even mentioned that they never even heard of our campus minister speak of Jesus' name. Very sad.
Young people want to know the faith of the Church...not someone's else ideas of what the faith should be.
And my daughter was chased
And my daughter was chased out by the over evangelization of the FOCUS crowd and their infantile interpretation of scripture and the catechism.
It's too bad too because she was very sacrmentally oriented, but needed far deeper intellectual support. For three years I watched her faith get squashed to death by this group. So the horror stories run both ways.
I will say this, I do think the younger generations seem to have a more innate grasp of sacramentality. They truly are searching for legitimate integrated spiritual experiences. This is a good thing, but it doesn't necessarily portend a back to the future church.
I left myself for two reasons. The first is the trend to hold the sacraments hostage to the celibate priesthood. This is a myopic and bad trend. The second reason is a sexual theology which is animalistic and inhumane. I feel very strongly the material reality we enjoy was created so God could experience love through touch. Even the angels are jealous of that.
I read your two posts with
I read your two posts with interest. I have, as indicated above left your church and so I'm reluctant to comment on any of your views. I wonder though, how you square your hostility to a "social gospel" with the following: the second part of Jesus Great Commandment ("Love Thy Neighbor etc"); the great works of charity and mercy done by a host of Catholic saints who indeed tried to change horrific social conditions; the fact that numerous encyclicals have exhorted the faithful to do more than simply live a holy personal existence, but instead to live the faith in the world.
Catholic campus ministry may need a shot in the arm but becoming the Republican party at prayer is not the answer. Besides, the Southern Baptists and Assemblies Of God churches alredy have that gig tied up.
I actually agree with most of
I actually agree with most of what you said....and by the way...I am NOT a Republican. I don't care for places like Franciscan (Steubenville) University, Christendom College or Ave Maria University for reasons which you already described above.
What I am saying, is that young people don't want to fight an older generation's battles. We weren't around before or right after Vatican II. While I love the Second Vatican Council, it seems that alot of people in the Church 'threw the baby out with the bath water' immediately following Vatican II. I think if people actually re-read what the documents actually say and not what people's interpretations of Vatican II are...we would be in a better place. The documents are pretty clear and straight-forward and therefore do not need a lot of "interpreting". It is in the interpretations done by some folks that have caused confusion and disillusion on BOTH sides of the theological spectrum, which is very unfortunate.
I'm all for helping people, especially the poor, but a church solely focused on "social gospel" issues is NOT the foundation of the Catholic Church....the documents of the Vatican II Council will back me up on this.
I don't want my Church to be another Episcopalian church. They have really fallen by the way-side because they have pretty much gone Post-Christian/Post-Jesus and are disolving right before our eyes because of it. They also have a vocations shortage (for what little churches are left) and they will ordain literally ANYBODY....and yet not many young people are signing on to become Episcopal priests/priestesses even though they have become the "church of anything-goes".
I am distressed in reading
I am distressed in reading this reply. I am a campus minister of well more than a decade, and many decades ordained. I do wish the writer might attend a meeting of campus ministers to see firshand who they are, what they experience, and how they respond, rather than relying on the perceived experience of a friend, whom for charity's sake we accept and try to understand. And who am I to judge the actions of someone at sometime and place that I am not witness too.
That being said, I lived and was ordained in the pre Vatican II Church. The council not only has documentation, but a demonstrable context of debate that created the documents. No documents, including the Constitution of the United States, can be implemented without interpretation. THe real problem of Vatican II is that its documents have been thwarted. Where is the collegiality intended, for example?
Catholic Christianity, indeed Orthodoxy as well, like a cross, is actualized by an inseparable unity of the vertical and horizontal dimensions. The love of Christ is only true in the respect that we love others, and vice versa. Jesus' gospel teaching is RADICAL in its egalitarianism, substitution of sibling love for traditional cultural family values, and identification with the most abject and abused of the earth in God's kenosis, emptying out, in Jesus' crucifixion as a slave. The departee needs to study the gospel. Not to say individuals and the institutional structures require serious reform: Ecclesia semper reformanda.
I was an eleven-year
I was an eleven-year seminarian to the Catholic priesthood 52 years ago. I believed in religion and science, in faith and reason. I couldn't countenance the disdain the hierarchy had officially toward evolution (science).
The Church-cultured schism between faith (religion) and reason (science) made it clear to me that I could never be the kind of priest that the Church was training me to be. I left the Seminary in 1957 and I have been working toward the reconciliation of science (faith) and religion (reason) ever since.
I shudder to think of the angst that would possess me now had I continued on to become a priest. I don't see much change in the Church as to its attitude against evolution (science). Institutional Christianity will continue to be ambiguous toward science and reason because of its dogmatically fixed investment in dominion theology and patriarchal politics. Neither the theology nor the politics of Church have changed, notwithstanding Vatican II, and I don't see prospects of change in the future.
I am well enough informed in faith and reason that I refuse to "throw the baby out with the wash." To my dying breath I will fight for the cause of the reconciliation of faith and reason, of religion and science, notwithstanding the intransigence of hierarchical Church.
The reconciliation of faith and reason in Church will not happen until the laity first come to reconciliation and force the Church to break with its blind fixation in dominion theology and imperial patriarchy. Some Catholics (many) are making the reconciliation in their lives and don't feel any moral compulsion to worry about a Church that insists on sticking to the ignorance of an antiquarian worldview. That's one underlying reason for the exodus.
I know there are those who wish I would leave the Church. It won't happen. See my websites: www.secondenlightenment.org, www.evolution101.org, www.justifiedliving.gather.com, www.acolyte.gather.com
There's an alternative now, people can chose to hold on to their faith and enrich it with the insights that evolutionary science affords it. Take seriously this option and watch the hierarchy squirm; material to enable you in this option is available to read and download at the above websites. Try it, you might like it.
I am distressed in reading
I am distressed in reading this reply. I am a campus minister of well more than a decade, and many decades ordained. I do wish the writer might attend a meeting of campus ministers to see firsthand who they are, what they experience, and how they respond, rather than relying on the perceived experience of a friend, whom for charity's sake we accept and try to understand. And who am I to judge the actions of someone at sometime and place that I am not witness too.
That being said, I lived and was ordained in the pre Vatican II Church. The council not only has documentation, but a demonstrable context of debate that created the documents. No documents, including the Constitution of the United States, can be implemented without interpretation. THe real problem of Vatican II is that its documents have been thwarted. Where is the collegiality intended, for example?
Catholic Christianity, indeed Orthodoxy as well, like a cross, is actualized by an inseparable unity of the vertical and horizontal dimensions. The love of Christ is only true in the respect that we love others, and vice versa. Jesus' gospel teaching is RADICAL in its egalitarianism, substitution of sibling love for traditional cultural family values, and identification with the most abject and abused of the earth in God's kenosis, emptying out, in Jesus' crucifixion as a slave. The departee needs to study the gospel. Not to say individuals and the institutional structures require serious reform: Ecclesia semper reformanda.
I left the Church b/c of the
I left the Church b/c of the sheer hypocrisy of the hierarchy. The Church is supposedly all about the "sanctity of life," but focuses almost exclusively on abortions rather than the living. The Church is quick to work against granting equal civil rights to gay people, but does little to alleviate poverty, inequities in eduction, healthcare, etc. The Church excludes women in the priesthood under the lame excuse that Jesus had no female disciples, yet Jesus also didn't have disciples from East Asia, Sub-Saharan Africa, the Americas, Northern Europe, etc. Besdies, if women are good enough to be saints, why can't they be priests? The Church is against ending the celibacy requirement for priests, yet allows for MARRIED ministers of some Protestant religions to become priests. The Church is against condoms, despite the science that condoms are the best way to prevent STDs (especially the spread of HIV) & despite the epidemic of AIDS across the world, especially Africa. And finally, the Church has opposed all measures designed to improve the ability of people who have been abused by the clergy to bring their cases to court. The hierarchy is responsible for people leaving the Church. Reform the hierarchy & you'll have people come back.
Many people have left the
Many people have left the faith because of some bad experience with a priest or Bishop. Sometimes we priests are rude and don't realize it. There are many priest who absolutely have no emotional feelings . .if they do they are not prevalent for people to see. Our homilies turn into Disneyland fairy tales sometimes; or we have a story to tell but never let people know where we are going with it. Frankly, our homilies are of no earthly value to people.
People want to learn how to endure each day in their lives . . their sufferings, financial problems, problems in their marriage or family, and trouble with their children . .. so many social problems that people are enduring today . . they need some manna from the Spirit .. .
People want some help that will help them endure daily lives and at the same time lead them to the Spirit.
Yes, we all want to be with the Spirit; but, first, we need to take care of business at home and priests and Bishops need to get off their bottoms and begin to become involved in all phases of their parish.
Greet your people at the door before the Eucharist; greet them again before we open with the Introductory Rite; have them greet each other; introduce themselves to each other.
Everyone who walks through the door of the Church should feel welcome and when they leave know they are welcome and at least feel the touch of Christ.
God's blessing during this Easter Season; and may the Spirit be good to you.
Fr. Joseph
I'm not sure that my comments
I'm not sure that my comments were accepted so I'l repeat them . Where have you been for the past 7 years Fr. Joe. I'm reminded of the Phoenix Diocese that sent out all kinds of messages in their newspaper and the media, requestiong Cathoilcs, that left their church, to (come home). They listed a number of reasons the Phoenix diocese believed were the reasons why they left. Would you believe, not one of the reasons mentioned indicated sexual abuse, money stolen from Sunday collection, Diocesan financial abuse case settlements or lack of voting rights for members of the parish councils. You see, bishops and priests think pew Catholics are stupid. If these subjects are not mentioned, it means everything is just fine. They don't even want to think about it no less discuss it. By the way, has your dioces been involved in any abuse cases or having money stolen from Sunday collections or have the financial settlements been very costly? Have you ever discussed these subjects at Mass? would you discuss these subjects with us?
"It suggests there is a
"It suggests there is a market out there," said Lindsay. "If you lose somebody, it doesn't necessarily mean you lose them for the rest of your career. If we're thinking of it like a religious marketplace, you might lose the customer for a year, but you might bring them back with a new product line."
hmmmm... a market place? constomers?
I have not left the church,
I have not left the church, but have been upset often enough to take such action. I stay Catholic not only because I have invested my career and education in the Catholic Church, but moreover because I know that the Church is universal and I see that as a giant umbrella that pulls in people from all stances in life. Liberals, conservatives, middle of the road, all are part of the Body of Christ. If I leave, the truth that I have to contribute to the Church will be absent.
I also search for liturgical communities that fit my "style" of prayer. I have to be patient also because I am not the center of the church's universe, and neither is the church the center of my universe. Only Jesus Christ has that place.
I see my role in life as helping others mine the gifts the church offers to help us live a meaningful and vibrant relationship with God both as a individual and in the wider community.
Lovely response. I pray that
Lovely response. I pray that we may all be one.
Fr. Joe has expressed the
Fr. Joe has expressed the thoughts which I have had for quite some time. I wish that more priests and, especially, the hierarchy would take his comments to heart. I, who am on the verge of leaving, feel hopeful that at least one priest recogizes the problems.
I'm not an ex-Catholic yet,
I'm not an ex-Catholic yet, but it is a struggle to remain Catholic these days. The most disheartening thing is the way the Church's silence/cover-up has enabled child abuse by priests. Inexcuseable, indefensible, and sickening!
Secondly, I think the Church's treatment of women is a sin which sanctions mistreatment of girls and women everywhere.
The almost last straw was the Pope's recent welcome back of Holocaut-denying clergy. Now you have a priest in Italy giving the Nazi salute and a sacristan wearing an armband with a swastika.
Why do I stay? I try to remind myself of the good that happens in the Church DESPITE clericalism and the hierarchy. But it's getting easier to imagine myself elsewhere. Sleeping in on Sundays sounds better and better.
I left for all the reasons
I left for all the reasons mentioned above, especially the Church's disdainful treatment of the female gender, those who bear and give birth to children, (and yes, sometimes endure unthinkable dilemmas which the old men of The Church cannot appreciate or relate to at all.) Giving birth to and raising babies and children to responsible adulthood is certainly not for the faint of heart, as any young father or mother will tell you! Yet, by their ridiculous invasion of a sacred private area of which they are, as adult men, "supposed to" know nothing, they have trespassed the sacred rights of the vocation of marriage, and as Colcoch1 so eloquently expressed it, "God's ability to experience love through touch". (Hope I got it right!) This is arrogance in its supreme form.
Did not Jesus show great concern against the excesses of the Pharisees? What do you think we have now?
The Episcopal Church I have found is not "weak", is not losing members, and I have never seen so many enthusiastic vocations to the priesthood among people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, some of them quite successful in other fields already. Yet these are the constant smears I hear about Episcopalians: "They will take anyone"--have you checked out your cadre of priests lately? Some are inspiring, beautiful human beings, alight with Spirit, but many are dull clods. "Anyone?" In the E. Church, the people elect their own Bishops--Can you imagine what that would be like, as a Catholic? Am I homesick for the Mass (as I experience it in a great community) Absolutely.
Do I still love my Church and its rich and varied history? Its Universality? Of course! But, I am a woman. I have raised children who have no interest in The Church, and that makes me so sad. But I can see why. Part of it is me, and my anger, and they saw that. And yes, when we separated, at our "loving Christian community" some of the women stopped speaking to us...I could go on, but I'll stop...You know, I still miss the Church. Is it a form of Stockholm Syndrome?
I agree with the point in the
I agree with the point in the article that most look at a personal reason for leaving the Church, not the scandals. There are scandals with every church. Twenty-eight percent of people in the US are Catholic, so you're going to here more about their problems than you are about the other 35,000 denominations.
One major thing I have noticed recently is that Catholic parishes don’t have very good teachers. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve talked with a Catholic that knows nothing about the faith. If Catholics knew more about Catholic reason, philosophy, theology, and the BIBLE, they would see how logical Catholicism is.
One glaring 'loose end' in
One glaring 'loose end' in the report on the Pew Survey is that they do not mention the group that has left mainline or general Protestantism to become Catholics. Because of this lacuna the report is skewed in a strange direction. And it does not at all mention either the Eastern Catholic or Orthodox experience either -- another 'loose end'.
While I passionately LOVE my
While I passionately LOVE my Catholic faith, I made the very difficult decision last year to fast from the mass. I could no longer reconcile what I have come to understand about the loving and compassionate nature and message of Christ with the hypocricy I have witnessed by the institution. A new layer of grief surfaces each time I witness another example of fear, power and control overriding the love of Christ. The Vatican II council provided the church a great opportunity to grow in its compassion. Sadly, the institution has chosen to ignore this opportunity as it retreats in fear.
Gradually drift away - well
Gradually drift away - well that's what happens when first one thing and then another seems outrageous coming from the supposed holder of the truth. Priests have children and affairs but don't drop celibacy. Women aren't male or disciples (yet Jesus clearly said Mary chose the better way by coming and joining the disciples to be taught with them) so they can't be priests. Condoms are sinful, just abstain from sex with your husband who is going to have sex with you regardless and if anyone thinks they won't in areas where men have all the power you are burying your head in the sand. Children who are abused (and adults - women especially) at the hands of priests (and some nuns) don't count as much as the priests.... Well you just keep piling up one thing after another and pretty soon you decide you'll find Jesus outside the church walls more than you will inside and you worry that if you stay you will be seen as condoning all these actions from the hierarchy. If that's gradually drifting away then so be it.
There hasn't been Catechesis
There hasn't been Catechesis for two generations. This might have something to do with it.
I feel that I left the
I feel that I left the "official parish life" of the church in the mid 1980s, because of the cruelties of a pastor Bishop. (We were not the Cathedral parish, either).
Having spent his entire priestly career (~25 years) working in the Chancery, it was apparently decided that he didn't need to undergo the year's tutoring by a senior pastor, like all other parish priests were required to do, before handling a parish on their own.
BIG MISTAKE...
Perhaps then his bigotry, misogyny and hatred for anything but his own tradition of Catholic practices & devotions would have been exposed & curbed. He also had the attitude that no lay person could tell him about anything going on in the community or his own actions, since he was the Bishop, placed in charge.
In our university town, we had Catholics from many traditions amd backgrounds, even Eastern rites, since there were large numbers of international students & their families, as well as military families.
Under such leadership, is it any wonder why the parish ceased to grow & started to decline??? Or that the Archdiocese later went into bankruptcy???
If in this archdiocese alone, there were more over 5 dozen priests of over 10 years experience, plus many more from other dioceses, this was the best candidate that the Pope could find ???
Growing in one's relationship
Growing in one's relationship to God/Jesus/Spirit is a fundamental part of the journey of faith. The more one grows, the more prayer becomes part of one's life, this will lead to active concern for others. It's not either-or, it is both-and. It's the nature of the spiritual life.
Homilies tend to not be so good at this kind of growth. Some priests stress doctrine/truths of the RC Church. That's OK in that we need to be in touch with the truth, not making things up to suite our personal whims. But it tends to be on a head level that doesn't reach any further than that, down into the heart and how we live our lives.
I really wish the RC Church would freely admit that it has continually needed to grow over the centuries. Perhaps the first instance was Paul correcting Peter. In the first century of the Christian community, women had leadership roles, but that got lost later, I assume due to the influence of the surrounding culture. Laity, priests and bishops owned slaves, and others took the lead in recognizing that this was counter to the Gospel. In history there were many times when people were coerced into becoming Catholics, such as Jews being given the choice of being baptized or being killed or ostracized. Yet those demeaning prayers about the Jews remain in the Latin rite of the mass. In the painful pedophile scandal, I can't recall ever seeing or hearing any statement from the hierarchy apologising for making so many decisions, repeatedly, that transferred pedophile priests and enabled them to seriously damage the lives of thousands of young people over so many, many years. Acknowledging and apologising for such things and apologising would set such a good and necessary example for everyone!
I love the RC Church, and I don't want to belong to any other church, but there have been times that I have seriously thought of leaving it.
What saddens me about the
What saddens me about the Catholic Church are the various ways it alienates certain groups of people, such as those Catholics, whom due to various circumstances, were married outside of the Catholic Church. Such people are refused to partake in the Eucharist or receive absolution.
I am particularly disheartened by the fact that they are denied the Eucharist, something that I strongly believe should be available freely to all people receptive to this blessed gift.
The hypocrisy is unreal - especially in light of the sexual abuse scandal - given that those sick priests continued to say Mass, receive Communion, and hear confessions.
It's for these and other reasons that many Catholics are just fed up with the whole thing and have moved into "alternative" Catholic movements, such as the Ecumenical Catholic Communion.
Personally, I think that the Catholic hierarchy needs to fall and, the sooner the better!
Vatican II taught that God
Vatican II taught that God has chosen to save us as a people, not as individuals. We need to belong to a community of disciples. If you are disaffected by the Catholic institution, which community makes you a better offer? As the Tarleton commercial in the days of cigarette advertising, "I'd rather fight than switch!"
I am not leaving because the
I am not leaving because the Catholic church is like family to me. I disagree with some people, but I'm part of it just as much as they are: we're all in this together!
Facinating. Personally, I
Facinating. Personally, I can't make a final determination as to why I remain "Catholic" or, if indeed I still am Catholic. As I age, my personal faith in Jesus grows almost in proportion to the lessening of my attachment to the institution of the Catholic Church.
Backing away for the moment from specifics, it seems to me that over the centuries the church has evolved from a community of friends of/in Jesus to create an ineffable/ impossible gulf, distance, whatever, between humanity and God/salvation. Establishing itself as the bridge of absolute necessity (rightly or wrongly) rationalized its requirement for abject obeiscence by the now separated "little people". Power and privelige convinced of its rectitude seems to be as incurable and contageous as it is blind to itself. Over time the institution has added innumerable incidentals raising them to that level of absolute necessity. As with the accumulation of barnacles or sea ice on a sailing vessel, the essential 'engineering' of the creature has been compromised and it is sinking. Whether the ostensible reason for the passengers leaving is the gradual sinking, disequiliberium, or the multi-faceted obstinacy and intransigence of the captain and officers (including the conviction that the barnacles are essential elements of the craft itself) the result is the same.
Did God so uttterly Self-immerse in intimacy with humanity - as a woman's pregnancy (there is no greater physical intimacy), and in creation itself as buried in it after a death punctuated by the pain of torture - to emerge in later history so distant, demanding, judgmental, regal, robed, regressive and absolutely authoritarian? I pose this of the institution and of those who also cling as barnacles themselves, all the while castigating those who
"re-quest" the intimacy and try to warn the captain.
There appears to be enormous
There appears to be enormous anger at the Church "hierarchy". But everyone needs to remember that the only reason for the Church is Jesus Christ. Everything else is temporal. A few days ago Pope Benedict commented on this subject:"It may be that we see more the sin of man and the negative, but the light of faith makes us more capable of seeing the good... it is in the Church that we receive the forgiveness of God, and learn to forgive." Saint Paul said to the Ephesians:"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with which you were sealed for the day of redemption. All bitterness,fury, anger, and shouting must be removed from you, along with all malice.And be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving one another as God has forgiven you in Christ."(Ephesians 4:30-32). Amen.
"A 50 something Catholic"
"A 50 something Catholic" contends that we should be at peace with the vagaries of institutional church because "...everyone needs to remember that the only reason for the Church is Jesus Christ. Everything else is temporal". I don't agree. There is a valid reason to contend that, to the contrary, the only reason for the Church is the human person. Jesus, the "Parent" and the Spirit, don't need church, we do. God understands that. Redemption, salvation, sacrament, yes Church, are God's gifts to us. We measely humans are so precious to God that we were given Church, and more, invited to become Church. And, surprise, surprise, we humans exist in time, yes, temporal, carnate, touchy-feely dependent carnate. God understands that also. So my friends as long as we are alive everything is temporal, even our act of faith and time and space access to the time and space freed act of redemption.
The "enormous anger" referred to is the seeming disregard by "Church" and "hierarchy" to the real life, time and space lives of us "little people" and the time and space unfolding of creation, which includes knowledge, understanding. Time does not stop at self-declared points of time, knowledge, understanding at the whim of old men in dresses.
Despite being banned for life
Despite being banned for life from the sacraments because of my divorce/remarriage, I have not left the Church. Many of you people seem to expect the church to capitulate to modernism, and the slipperiness of our politically-informed moral politics. I often find myself in disagreement with the Church, and at times even pity myself "my outcast state," but at the same time, I recognize that when I was confirmed I took an oath. The Church doesn't just serve me, or even America. In fact, a relatively small portion of the world's Catholics live in this country, so it really is the height of childish narcissism to hear some people whine and complain about how the church is not accommodating them personally.
I am not sure what your point
I am not sure what your point is.
I left when I was a kid
I left when I was a kid because it was irrelevant. Mass wasn't required, and it was boring, so I stopped going. I'd taken all the CCD classes, read the bible, believed in God, all that. But it was like algebra - had nothing to do with my life. No one was mean to me, I didn't have a big problem with doctrine. I understood the Church was made up of imperfect people, not angels or Jesus clones, and wasn't looking for "perfect" priests or nuns. But I really had no "connection" - it didn't matter one way or another if I went or stayed home - except maybe to my mother. If I didn't go, it seemed no one noticed, no one cared. When I would go, no one noticed, no one was particularly welcoming. So, my attendance died from inertia. Lack of motivation. I went back after about 10 years, a series of life events reminded me that life was more than just work and hanging out with my friends. I went back, and I realized that I wasn't there to socialize, or for the music, or for inspirational speeches. I was there for the Eucharist. I was hungry for that spiritual food, that grace. That was what I needed - everything else was irrelevant.
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