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Prop 8 has Catholics divided at the parish level
Jun. 16, 2009
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Researchers will tell you: it takes a lot to stir American Catholics out of their pews and into engagement with their church and parish. Most people are content to sit through Mass, grab a donut on the way out, and get moving with their Sunday.
One hot topic changed all that on a Sunday last November in my Southern California parish: the battle over Proposition 8, the anti-gay marriage ballot initiative supported by the Catholic Church and eventually approved by voters.
First a little recent news: the Los Angeles Times noted in an editorial that Prop. 8 continues to divide the state. The locus of that lingering anger is state now Supreme Court Chief Justice Ronald George -- who's had the poor luck to rule both in favor and against single-sex marriage.
Early last year, George ruled legislators couldn't ban same-sex marriage on their own. But when voters did just that via the ballot, George then sided with them -- ruling the will of the people should not be overturned by court fiat. So now both sides in the debate are going after him.
This house-divided scenario reminded me of that Sunday last year at my parish, just two weeks before the election. As my family and I walked into church, we noticed large yellow anti-Prop 8 banners flying from the front lawn and draped over chain link fences. Inside, a guest celebrant -- a priest from a neighboring parish filling in at the main 10 o'clock mass -- delivered a homily that mixed a little Elmer Gantry with a lot of talk radio, coming down hard in favor of Prop. 8 and against "the Democratic candidate for President." He directed the congregation to flyers piled up in the church vestibule listing pro-life reasons not to vote for the Democrat.
When his homily ended, there was at first a stunned silence, followed by a smattering of applause, and then a mini-walk-out as two or three people got up and left. A deep political divide that I did not know existed in my parish was ripped open and revealed.
After Mass, I joined several people who approached our pastor, decrying the banners and a homily we felt crossed the church-state line; the choir wrote up a petition expressing the same thing. At the same time, parishioners who put up the signs said they were in the right -- following the expressed wishes of L.A.'s Cardinal Roger Mahony.
The pastor -- a very patient Irishman on the verge of retirement -- worked to restore peace. The banners remained for the day, but were gone the next Sunday.
Still, the memory remains. In my parish, a lot of members work in various parts of the entertainment industry: carpenters, grips, costumers, make-up artists, sound engineers, etc. Through their work, they deal with all kinds of people each day -- including gay men and women involved in deep and committed relationships. More than a few gay people call this parish home: they are there every Sunday, they help out during the week.
Once you know people as people, it's difficult to reduce their concerns and their lives to a banner stuck in the church lawn. Our parish,like many others in California, walk a fine line -- working hard to keep everyone in the Catholic Big Tent.
Proposition 8 demonstrated how fragile that big tent can be, how easily it can fold. A parish in San Francisco was vandalized after the Prop. 8 vote, even though it had been known as "gay friendly" for decades. Nothing even remotely like that happened at my parish -- but our quiet, pleasant group of believers, our nice suburban community of Catholics, got a little whiff of the culture wars.
Everyone calmed down quickly enough -- we're friends and neighbors first; would-be political-activists much further down the list. But as California continues to wrestle with Proposition 8 and its fallout -- I think we do, too.
Our diocese is being torn
Our diocese is being torn apart by a bishop determined to oppose the same sex marriage law already passed. Speakers, TV ads, inserts in the bulletin. This weekend we have been told there will be tables in the foyer of the Church to sign a petition for a people's referendum to ban gay marriage. My husband and I are deeply distressed by this but felt calmed by an older gentleman in our church who responded that our responsibility as Catholics is to "just love them" and not judge them. Even though he is personally opposed to gay marriage he felt we needed to leave it alone and let God judge. All the hate filled rhetoric that I suspect will follow in these comments cannot change that some matters need to be left to God.
I agree with the older
I agree with the older gentleman's comment that it is our responsibility as Catholics to "just love them" and not judge them. Hate and anger are not what we are taught to feel towards others. We have no authority to judge others just as they do not have the authority to judge us. Everyone has the right to love whomever they choose. Should they want this love recognized by a Civil marriage, we cannot stand in their way. Separation between Church and State is written into the U.S. Constitution to guarantee that everyone has the religious freedom to worship as they wish. But on the flip side, religion can not dictate civil laws.
One would think that
One would think that legalising gay marriage makes it compulsory. Whatever happened to freedom of conscience?
I honestly don't undersand
I honestly don't undersand your reasoning, gezzamac. Heterosexual marriage is legal but that donesn't make it compulsory.
We should not judge them or
We should not judge them or hurt them, but by legalizing Gay marriage we we say their actions are ok and fail to warn them of what their conduct may cost them: 1st Corinthians Chapter 6:9 " Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites "
Basic human rights are civil
Basic human rights are civil matters. When the bishops and priests of the Catholic Church take such an active and prejudicial role in advocating against a minority of the civil population, it needs to lose its' tax exempt status for a period of time so that it will learn that Church and State are indeed separate and must be kept that way. Gay marriage is a civil matter. The bishops of the Catholic Church are using it as a diversionary tactic to sidetrack the attention they are getting on their failure as leaders to deal with the sexual abuse of children by clergy. Both bishops and priests have abused children for decades and when these two clerical groups tried to get away with breaking the law, a different set of justice has been applied to many of them. I do not believe gay and lesbian people choose their sexual orientation any more than heterosexual people choose theirs. Ignorance and hatred play a significant role in this same-sex marriage issue. Personally, I wish my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters would use the term "civil union" until the hatred and ignorance of their fellow citizens is diminished by some education and tolerance. I do however believe many of the Church's leaders are showing themselves to be hypocrites and haters, the two things Christ asks us not to be. The bishops of the Catholic Church are emotionally and sexually immature and at least five centuries behind current knowledge of human sexuality. The same ignorance and hatred issues regarding gay and lesbian people are at play in the leadership circles of many other Christian denominations and other non-Christian religions. I do agree with the poster "cool mom" that this issue is distressing in many church communities but "just love them" is sometimes not enough. I say, stand with them and help heal the hatred and ignorance that make the gay and lesbian person suffer violence and exclusion which is so often perpetuated against them by the self-righteous. "Just love them" is sometimes not enough.
"I do agree with the poster
"I do agree with the poster "cool mom" that this issue is distressing in many church communities but "just love them" is sometimes not enough. I say, stand with them and help heal the hatred and ignorance that make the gay and lesbian person suffer violence and exclusion which is so often perpetuated against them by the self-righteous. "Just love them" is sometimes not enough."
Kudos, Chris Smith. When I was hungry, did you feed me? When I was naked, did you clothe me?
That a diocese would waste
That a diocese would waste its money and time trying to get our government to force citizens who are not even Catholic to live according to Catholic teaching is very, very strange.
To borrow a line from the
To borrow a line from the movie "First Knight" (a dreadful retelling of King Arthur's life, but with some great lines), "Either what we believe to be right, and good, and true, is right, and good, and true for all men, under God, are we are just another robber tribe".
While not spoken by a great saint, mystic, political, moral or philosophical leader, the line still resonates. Either what we as Catholics believe is true for all, or it is not true at all. There are no degrees in truth. Objective truth exists objectively, independent of circumstances. Thus, what is right, good, true, beautiful, moral, just, etc. for one group is so for all. Either that, or we have to say that there is no such thing as truth, goodness, righteousness, beauty, morality, justice, etc. Take your pick.
Well the Catholic church once
Well the Catholic church once held that is was true that usury was objectively wrong, against the natural law. But now they hold that proposition to be false. The Catholic church once held that it was true that slavery was not morally objectionable, now they hold that proposition to be false. The Catholic church once held that it was true that the sun went around the earth now they hold that proposition to be false. And they held these propositions to be true regardless of circumstances, to be objectively true.
What the same-sex marriage
What the same-sex marriage debate is really revealing at local parishes is the divide between authentic Catholics and phony ones. You can't support same-sex unions and be in full communion with the Church; you can't support them and claim to have Catholic faith. It's not merely a political issue. It cuts much more to the core of whether people are willing and courageous enough to live truly Catholic faith.
to: "Yes on Proposition
to: "Yes on Proposition 8"
"judge not lest you be judged" Good luck in that ultimate meeting with your maker when you're called upon to make an accounting for yourself.
Anyway, the author makes a terrific point when he says "Once you know people as people...." That sums up life
nobody's talking sacrament of
nobody's talking sacrament of matrimony here. Just legal civil marriage. The Catholic Church has NO business butting into this. Your "authentic" Catholocism appears hell-bent on denying some of our citizens equal protection under the law.
Everything you've written is
Everything you've written is only true if you conflate living Catholic morality in a Catholic culture with living morality in the civil culture. States passing same sex marriage laws do not force Catholics so witness gay marriages, have them in the Churches, support them in their families, or force a heterosexual to marry a gay person. Catholics still have the right to insist on Catholic moral expression in the context of their parishes and lives.
Why is this issue of gay marriage in a secular culture any different for Catholic believers than any other secular difference with Catholic moral principles. If you are going to conflate this issue as a litmus test for true Catholics, why not start petitions demanding the state outlaw divorce?
I'm glad to be an Authentic
I'm glad to be an Authentic Catholic and not a phony one. I suppose we are forced to tolerate gays as God's disordered children but they sould never be allowed equal rights with us who are not gay. They are a threat to traditional marriages and I believe I they could learn to be straight if they really wanted to.
Gays are not a threat to
Gays are not a threat to traditional marriages. It is absolutely ridiculous to blame anyone else for the failure of anybody's marriage. If my marriage fails, it is ridiculous for me to blame anyone else for such failure. It takes two for a marriage to continue and sometimes it takes a lot of sacrifice as well, a lot of love, and a lot of growth and maturity in spiritual ways. Blaming failure of marriage on gays is just foolhardy and a phony way to discriminate against gays.
Gays can not learn to be straight anymore than you could learn to be gay. It is preposterous to imagine anyone can learn to be gay if they are straight. That is just nonsense.
To say that gays are God's disordered children is to say that God is disordered. Think about it.
I think you need to form your
I think you need to form your own offshoot called Authentic Roman Catholicism if only because Roman Catholicism is too full of phony Catholics.
No, gay marriage is not a
No, gay marriage is not a threat to traditional marriage. Closeted gays choosing to pretend they are straight and marrying under false pretenses do a terrible injustice to their spouses. They are a far greater threat to traditional marriage than gay people who accept who they are and live accordingly.
What ultra-conservative Catholics forget is that freedom of conscience cuts both ways. If you don't like gay marriage, you are free to disown everyone in your life that supports it. But is that what Jesus would do?
Did the good Bishop then,
Did the good Bishop then, following the direct condemnatory statements by the past and present Popes, put petitions in church entries demanding the end of our unjust and immoral invasion and genocidal occupation of Iraq?
Or does the Bishop practice cafeteria Catholicism in his moral theology? Is he in fact a moral relativist??
One has nothing to do with
One has nothing to do with the other. One (homosexual marriage) is an issue of the teaching authority of the Church. The other (the war in Iraq) is a matter for individual prudential judgment, in keeping with the Church's immemorial teaching on Just War. Whether or not Iraq qualifies under the terms of the Just War teaching is a matter of prudential judgment. Both John Paul the Great and Benedict XVI had denounced the war, just as some bishops (Archbishop Hannan, Cardinal Pell) supported it. In the end, war is not a matter on which the Church teaches in a definitive way.
Homosexual marriage, and homosexuality in general, are matters on which the Church teaches definitively as they directly relate to issues of sexual and familial morality. It also brings into question issues of children. Should children be raised by a homosexual couple? I would say, no, since that upbringing could damage the children's understanding of morality and the proper order of human sexuality--man and woman.
Clint, there were lots of
Clint, there were lots of bishops (more than two) who publicly dissented from Humanae Vitae. Would that change the teaching from "authentic" to a "matter of prudential judgment."
I also found in my experience, when people cite "prudential judgment" it is most often a matter of trying to force their religion to flow from their politics, rather than vice versa.
We (my wife and I) are adult
We (my wife and I) are adult catechists with
primary current emphasis in RCIA and Small Christian community
formation (Bible study and lectionary-based). One of the striking
observations we have is of the large number of gay and lesbian people
who have had a Paul-like Damascus experience that is leading them to
the church. Their presence leads to lively discussions that enable
excellent exploration of various aspects of the church's moral,
sacramental, christological and ecclesial theologies and the
inconsistencies between the church's social teachings and it's
behaviors. At the same time all of the people (gay and straight) are
faced with confronting the Church's institutional bigotry and the
power of the single-issue polemicists to influence the church. Also,
many of the LGBT people are directly told they are unwelcome by
Catholic friends and family and many decide to stay on the fringes,
maybe coming to daily mass, often in confused, suffering silence. All
(gay and straight) are affected.
There do not seem to be resources to educate (catechize) the parishioners and clergy (and talk radio folks) who deny the church to somel people.
Dear "Yes on Proposition
Dear "Yes on Proposition 8"
And you think that to be "Catholic" means to be that judgemental? Who died and appointed you God?
Being truly Catholic is to love God with your whole heart, soul, mind and body and to love your neighbor as yourself. That is the only law that Jesus gave to us along with the "Blesseds--Beautitudes".
He did not lay all the other dictums that have evolved over the centuries on us. These laws are very human ones---and have often proven themselves to be at variance with God's law of love.
To the poster "Yes on
To the poster "Yes on Proposition 8", you are practicing hatred and hypocrisy when you make such statements as "You can't support same-sex unions and be in full communion with the Church". This is ignorance and hatred speaking and has no place in the dialogue about this discussion. It goes against the most basic teachings of Christ and if any person is to make such claims, they are certainly not in communion with Christ or the Catholic faith. You should really take a long hard look at your own words, "whether people are willing and courageous enough to live truly Catholic faith." You are hardly courageous if you espouse such hatred for gay and lesbian children of God. Ignorance is no excuse for hatred when it truly hurts other human beings and the Catholic Church has no right to intervene in such civil matters as same-sex marriage if they wish to keep their tax exempt status. The same applies to Mormons or any organization that tries to devalue a particular minority by crossing over the line of separation of Church and State. It's really about human rights and this poster is hardly showing "authentic" Catholicism by making such ignorant statements. These kind of statements bring great harm to other human beings and must be challenged at every stage.
I appreciate that this is a
I appreciate that this is a sensitive issue for people who have a special call to celibacy in their lives. The Church teaches, and I assent in Faith to the fact that Jesus-God come in the flesh commanded that all the commandments without exception be followed without exception. That Almighty God the Holy Spirit will always be here in His Church with us to be our Paraclete. Its timely for us to remember that its just as important for every one of us to ensure that we keep the commandments. Including but not limited to: not defrauding the worker of their daily wage; not coveting one's neighbors spouse; or robbing them; not committing fornication; or otherwise treating stranger badly. In opther words, keeping all of the commandments-in love. We are Church! Don't forget that Friday is the Feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus-God come in the flesh. Rejoice Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!
Religion can not dictate
Religion can not dictate civil laws. Marc, and Chris and others, well said.
We can not turn U.S.A. into a fundamentalist type islamic type religious state where religion dictates civil law.
Keep church and state separate. Jesus teaches us to respect, welcome, include, love the other not judge, not shun, not mistreat the other. Love your neighbour as yourself, love God with all your heart, mind and soul, not hate, exclude, judge, shun others.
I think people can not help what sexual orientation they have and plenty of Catholic saints were homosexuals too. John Newman was recently put forward to be canonized and he definately was homosexual, he was insisting on being buried next to his life-long male companion.
Jesus never said a word about this issue, and never condemned others for their sexuality, not anyone. Jesus chose sexual people and honored them with great responsibility and dignity in the church:
Samaritan woman though Jesus knows she has had many husbands, and lives commom law, still he is overjoyed with her apostle work to Samaria and never asks her to leave her boyfriend,. Jesus praises the anointing woman, the woman of the city, and defends her, praises her. He does not shame her, shun her, condemn her or send her away or exclude or condemn her. Let us get a grip on the real traditions of Jesus and the church.
Jesus never said a word about
Jesus never said a word about sexual orientation. He did, however, tell us to love God and neighbor as we love ourselves.
One has to wonder if Americans love themselves --- given all the hate mongering over homosexuality, abortion, contraception, etc. She who doesn't love herself cannot possibly love anybody else. Love means extending oneself for the benefit of the other.
In light of recent events, I am now more convinced than ever that religious communities --- Christian, Jew, etc. --- need to get out of the civil marriage business. As in other places in the world, let folks get married/united before a State official and, then --- if desired --- approach the priest, rabbi, minister, imam, etc. to witness their exchange of religious (matrimonial) vows.
Let's have church-state separation in this marriage business! It's long past overdue!
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