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PDF versionMadison bishop hears supporters of fired parish worker
Apr. 04, 2009
Kolpack outside parish (Photo: Mike Sweitzer-Beckman)
Madison Bishop Robert Morlino met in a packed church hall with parishioners of St. Thomas the Apostle Church in Beloit, Wis., Friday night to discuss why he fired Ruth Kolpack, a pastoral associate, last month.
He said little but listened to a number of Kolpack supporters who vigorously defended their dismissed parishioner.
In 2003, Kolpack wrote a thesis for a master’s degree in which she argued for more gender-inclusive language in Catholic liturgies. Last month, after meeting with Kolpack briefly, the bishop asked her to denounce that paper. When she refused, he fired her.
Details on what precisely led to the dismissal have not been divulged. However, a statement on the Madison diocese's Web site explained that the bishop acted because he could not trust her to teach authentic Catholic doctrine.
Kolpack has been a member of St. Thomas parish for 35 years and worked there for 26 years. Her termination upset many parishioners there.
Morlino had agreed to meet with St. Thomas parishioners and came to the parish Friday evening where an estimated 300 to 400 supporters had gathered.
The event was held in the church's basement, many standing around the edges of the room, with overflow crowding into other rooms in the church in order to hear parishioners testify in support of Kolpack through the church's old sound system.
About a dozen parishioners spoke. From the beginning, Morlino made it clear that he would say little and listen to the parishioners. At the end he asked everyone to pray for those involved.
The meeting was closed to the media, but participants spoke to NCR at the parish following the event.
Before the meeting, Kolpack said she hoped Morlino would “take to heart” what people planned to say.
When asked if she knew why she had been fired, she said the focus seemed to have shifted from her thesis to claims that in her parish work she had diverged from official Catholic teaching. This claim seemed to be at the heart of the diocesan statement released earlier in the week.
Morlino arrived on time, at 6:30 p.m., and greeted onlookers before hustling into the basement of the church. The meeting lasted over an hour. The bishop was one of the first to exit. When asked by NCR if he had been well-received he exclaimed, "Yes!" before stepping into his car for the trip back to Madison.
Sue Hartley, one of the parishioners to testify at the meeting, said she had grown disaffected with her local parish and had dropped out of active participation until she ran into Kolpack who encouraged her to attend St. Thomas.
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"I decided to go [to St. Thomas], and I'm still here. I work as a greeter, and Ruth has helped me to see the power in greeting people before mass. She has helped me seek out the people who stand in the back and don't feel comfortable sitting with the rest of the parish because they have felt rejected in the past by the Catholic Church."
Hartley's daughter, Monica, 25, said she never heard Ruth diverge from church teachings. “She has always challenged me when she thought that I wasn't living the faith as well as I could, but I know she loves me anyway!"
"How many people would it take to fill Ruth's position?" asked Sue Hartley. "Someone should ask Fr. Steve [Kortendick, pastor at St. Thomas]. I wonder if he even knows?"
Richard Newsome and his family have been parishioners at St. Thomas for nearly forty years. "I'm disappointed that Ruth was fired," he told NCR after the meeting. "Bishop Morlino said that it was 'external forces' that made him fire Ruth.
Newsome added that everyone who spoke tonight was "very affirming and supportive" of the work Ruth has done. "What happens next remains to be seen."
"If Ruth is not reinstated, my family and I feel that there needs to be some consequence," he said. "Some [people in my family] are thinking about not attending mass at St. Thomas anymore. I'm not ready to commit to that. I've thought about withholding money from the Diocesan appeal that I contribute to every year, but this is a very difficult [economic] time to withhold money from people who depend on the important services the Diocese provides."
When Kolpack exited the church nearly an hour after the meeting had ended. She said she was very pleased with the gathering.
"The outpouring of support," she said, "from the around the country and the world has been incredible -- from cards, phone calls, e-mails and flowers from people I don't even know."
She added that she would sleep better tonight than she did the night before. Following the meeting Kolpack and friends went to a local restaurant for a Friday fish dinner.
In his column this week: Mike Sweitzer-Beckman looks at some background to the firing of pastoral associate Ruth Kolpack.
Sweitzer-Beckman is a NCR contributor living in Madison, Wisconsin.
God bless the Bishop!
God bless the Bishop!
Sue, Sue,
Sue, Sue, Sue...
http://www.inbusinessmagazine.com/augustupwall
Breach of faith
by Terrence Wall
Having written Bishop Morlino some time ago questioning why the Diocese would spend millions to rebuild a cathedral to serve just a handful of parishioners, I couldn't resist looking up the complaint at the Circuit Court to learn more about the dispute between the Catholic Diocese and Phoenix Fundraising Counsel.
The Diocese hired Phoenix to survey priests and parishioners to determine the interest level in a possible $70 million capital campaign for a new cathedral downtown and (unlike what you read in the newspaper), there is more to this story.
First, in fairness to the Diocese, Wisconsin law requires a written contract for agreements that extend beyond 12 months. However, in fairness to Phoenix, verbal agreements under 12 months are legally enforceable.
[My company was in a similar situation recently. One of my staff issued a start work order to a contractor when he didn't have approval to do so. We caught the problem within days and stopped work. Even though we didn't have a contract and we could have argued many different legal positions, the bottom line was that we felt morally obligated to reimburse the contractor's costs, so we did.]
The situation with the Diocese and Phoenix is virtually the same. I will present my personal understanding and opinion of the "moral case," not the legal case:
The Diocese ordered Phoenix to begin work pending the contract's review and signing, but later stopped the work. The Bishop also promised, in writing, that the individual survey results would be confidential and not disclosed to the Bishop, but he later demanded the surveys be turned over to him in a confidential memo to Phoenix.
Why did the Bishop feel the need to prevent others from knowing of his demand?
When Phoenix declined, the Bishop refused payment — even after the Bishop told Phoenix on March 26th to submit an invoice and it would be paid. On March 27th, the Diocese's CFO, Greg Keller, reassured Phoenix that the Bishop would authorize payment ... but a day later, the Bishop again reneged.
The complaint then says that the Diocese offered to pay a reduced amount, which Phoenix agreed to — but again, the Diocese never paid. Shortly thereafter, the Vicar General, Donald Heiar, was removed from office by the Bishop (a parishioner tells me that Heiar was removed because Father Heiar disagreed with the Bishop's position).
Aside from the idea of a new Cathedral that seems like a colossal waste of capital when there are so many other needs in the Diocese going unmet — as well as huge vacant capacity in downtown Catholic churches (as evidenced by the recent merger of all three downtown parishes last month) —I think the bigger picture also sheds light on the Bishop's position.
The Diocese doesn't financially support Edgewood (the only Catholic high school in the Diocese) and doesn't support the local Catholic grade schools either. Now add in wasting capital on a lawsuit, and I am beginning to think that the church couldn't have picked someone more unsuited for leading Catholics in a liberal bastion like Madison. ("Spare the rod..." is not a Deming management philosophy.)
As parishioners tell it, a sample of his past actions have him writing letters to his priests ordering them to play pre-recorded political recordings at mass. Add in a breach of trust with priests under his charge (after promising confidentiality).
What purpose is served by breaching confidentiality other than to seek retribution? No good can come from it, and your employees will never trust you again.
Another inside source tells me that virtually all the staff that used to be at the Diocese's office when Bishop Morlino arrived have either been fired or quit due to poor treatment.
Ahh, excuse me, but doesn't the church profess forgiveness and reconciliation? I forgot where the church teaches that we should break trust and then seek to punish those who "bear witness against us." What ever happened to "turn the other cheek"?
Doesn't the Bishop have a moral responsibility to pay the invoice and to keep his confidentiality promise to his priests? Isn't refusing to do so a breach of trust and a bad example for all Catholics — not to mention a breach in the church's moral code?
If you're uncertain as to the Bishop's guilt or innocence, ask yourself if the next time Diocese priests go to confession, if they would ask him to hear their sins. Could they trust him to hold their confessions confidential? If the answer is "no", something is wrong, because let's face it, you're supposed to be able to trust the guy with the collar on.
Every organization must be able to trust its leader or the organization can't function. After a series of bad decisions, broken trust, and lost credibility, the time has come for new leadership that will restore trust and build bridges to our community.
Business Tip of the Month:
Before entering into a contract, be sure to instruct the vendor in writing not to begin work until a mutually agreeable contract has been signed.
Story Time Posted Apr. 5,
Story Time Posted Apr. 5, 2009 1:06 AM
by Diogenes
http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otr.cfm?id=4971
“The administration at my boy's school is just appalling. Yesterday he came home with a notice that he'd been suspended for three days. I said, ‘Bryan, what did you do to get suspended?’ He said, ‘Nothing.’ I said, ‘Well what reason did the principal give you?’ He said, ‘No reason. She just hates me.’ I said, ‘But why now?’ And he said, ‘I don't know. I guess my shoes were untied.’ Now really, something should be done about that impossible woman!”
On overhearing the conversation above, most of us would think it tells us more about the mom recounting it than about the principal she was disparaging. Yes, there exist unjust school administrators. Yes, they sometimes act vindictively. But even the exercise of iniquity requires a certain minimal public plausibility.
The National Catholic Reporter continues to huff and puff at the embers of the Kolpack Termination Scandal, hoping to raise enough outrage to burn the bishop in the process. Diocese of Madison pastoral associate Ruth Kolpack, you remember, was fired by Bishop Robert Morlino. Ace investigative reporter Mike Sweitzer-Beckman, in an update issued yesterday, reveals the reason for the discharge:
“In 2003, Kolpack wrote a thesis for a master’s degree in which she argued for more gender-inclusive language in Catholic liturgies. Last month, after meeting with Kolpack briefly, the bishop asked her to denounce that paper. When she refused, he fired her.”
Gender-inclusive language. Right. Once again, such an explanation tells us more about the persons who'd believe it than about the situation it purports to describe. I suppose there's a segment of NCR readers who are impatient with the kind of calm even-handedness John Allen displays and who prefer to remain in that fantasy world where bad bad bishops clobber innocent, orthodox, Church-loving layfolk simply because of six-year-old sympathies for inclusive language. Their grasp of reality is not reassuring.
Here's a hyperlink to Kolpack's thesis(1). It seems that, by an oversight, Sweitzer-Beckman failed to provide it. Here's a hyperlink to the Diocese of Madison's statement on the firing(2). It seems that, by an oversight, Sweitzer-Beckman failed to provide it.
It is not established, at present, whether Kolpack's shoes were untied.
(1) http://www.scribd.com/doc/13441413/Ruth-Kolpack-Thesis
(2) http://www.madisondiocese.org/Portals/0/Communications/Press%20Releases/...
Eye for an Eye and a Tooth
Eye for an Eye and a Tooth for a Tooth.
The bishop "fired" the pastoral Associate for not denouncing her Master's Thesis.
The bishop had blundered before, and was sued. The court is the only place where the bishop will admit his mistakes:
http://www.madison.com/tct/news/292544
Lawsuit: Bishop demanded names of complaining priests
Pat Schneider — 6/20/2008 1:33 pm
Diocese of Madison officials were tight-lipped Friday about a lawsuit charging that the church reneged on a contract after a consulting firm refused to tell Bishop Robert Morlino which priests complained about him in a survey on the prospects of a planned $70 million capital campaign to build a new cathedral.
William Yallaly, an associate director of communications, said Friday that the diocese would not comment on the lawsuit filed earlier this month in Dane County Circuit Court by Phoenix Fundraising Counsel of Madison, which is seeking payment of $350,000 for services rendered and other damages. Phoenix attorney Timothy Edwards also declined to comment.
It's not the first time the outspoken, deeply conservative Morlino has been accused of heavy-handed tactics. In 2006, his threat of repercussions against any priest who challenged his hard-line stance against same-sex marriage -- including a mandatory, recorded sermon to be aired at Sunday Mass -- prompted some area Catholics to lash out in a full page ad in local newspapers.
The multi-million-dollar capital campaign was being planned at a time when the diocese was consolidating parishes because of a shortage of priests and confronting criticism from rank-and-file Catholics for placing bricks-and-mortar spending ahead of social justice initiatives.
This time around, Phoenix claims that despite a November 2007 letter to parishioners promising that all survey results would be "considered confidential," Morlino on March 7 personally pressured Phoenix president and CEO John Richert to turn over the results to him. Morlino demanded the names of priests who expressed concerns or who registered complaints about him in the survey process and was "visibly agitated" when Richert refused, the lawsuit against the diocese says.
As part of a feasibility study for a capital campaign to replace the arson-ravaged St. Raphael Cathedral downtown, Phoenix interviewed 83 priests, many of whom expressed concerns later summarized without identifying information in a report to Morlino.
Confidentiality is a common, accepted practice in the fundraising industry and imperative to maintain Phoenix's credibility as an independent third party, the lawsuit says. It also says it was an essential tool to ensure that parishioners and priests felt free to comment without fear of retribution.
Diocesan officials requested confidential survey results for a second time on March 12, according to the lawsuit.
On March 26, Morlino told Richert that the capital campaign would be on hold for at least a year and that the diocese would not hire Phoenix when the capital campaign resumed, the lawsuit says. Asked why, Morlino reportedly told Richert that because Richert was held in such high regard by priests, he might be in a compromised position if the priests and Morlino disagreed about the campaign.
In his April 3 column in the Catholic Herald, Morlino wrote that after praying on and considering the results of the feasibility study report, as well as checking on "the signs of the times," he decided to postpone the capital campaign for at least one year.
"Let me be clear that I do not detect opposition to a capital campaign in the feasibility study, but I do observe unanswered questions, to which I hope to give a response in this intervening period," Morlino wrote. "I believe we are blessed in the general conviction of our people, in support of the cathedral project."
Richert had indicated his agreement with Morlino's reading of the study, Morlino wrote. He went on to cite the faltering economy as a sign that the timing for the capital campaign was not right.
On April 4, the diocese officially announced that the campaign would be postponed.
The lawsuit against the diocese details several instances in which diocesan officials promised to "take care of the paperwork" on what Phoenix proposed to be a $6.5 million contract for a 152-week capital campaign and represented publicly that Phoenix was the capital campaign counsel.
By March, Phoenix offered the diocese a pared-down, less expensive contract, it alleges in the lawsuit. By March 28, Phoenix presented the diocese with an invoice for $487,816, which the diocese countered with an offer to pay $350,000, with an initial payment of $250,000, that Richert reluctantly accepted. The diocese never paid these amounts as promised, the lawsuit says.
Hire a good attorney and sue
Hire a good attorney and sue the Bishop.
Follow the example of Phoenix Fundraising.
http://www.isthmus.com/isthmus/article.php?article=24108
Thursday 10/23/2008
The Madison Catholic Diocese settles a lawsuit brought by Phoenix Fundraising Counsel, a firm hired to do a fundraising survey on a new downtown cathedral. Phoenix said the diocese refused to pay $350,000 owed and asked it for confidential information it had gathered on priests critical of Bishop Robert Morlino. Settlement details are not released, but both sides agree to call the allegation about confidential information a "misunderstanding."
http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/local/index.php?ntid=309878
Wisconsin State Journal
FRI., OCT 17, 2008 - 9:20 AM
Catholic Diocese, fundraising firm settle lawsuit
ED TRELEVEN
608-252-6134
etreleven@madison.com
The Madison Catholic Diocese and a local fundraising firm have come to an agreement that settles the firm's lawsuit against the diocese for alleged failure to pay for the firm's work.
Dane County Circuit Judge Sarah O'Brien signed an order Wednesday dismissing Phoenix Fundraising Counsel's lawsuit against the diocese. The firm conducted surveys to gauge support for a capital campaign to rebuild St. Raphael Cathedral, which was destroyed by fire more than three years ago.
Timothy Edwards, attorney for Phoenix, said he could not comment on the settlement by agreement with the diocese. Neither the diocese nor its attorney returned phone calls seeking comment. Documents notifying the court of a settlement contained no details about any agreement.
Phoenix claimed in its lawsuit, filed in June, that the diocese refused to pay for its work after Phoenix declined to turn over confidential information that it gathered from surveys of thousands of parishioners and interviews with 83 priests. That information included the names of priests who were critical of Bishop Robert Morlino.
The firm claimed that the diocese owed it more than $350,000 for work that included a feasibility study and a capital campaign.
The diocese answered in court papers filed in July that Morlino was not interested in the names of critical priests and did not intend to violate confidentiality assurances given to parishioners who took part in the survey.
The settlement of the lawsuit appears to be a ray of light amid expressions of dissent recently expressed by some local Catholics. A group of Catholics, many of them members of the group Call to Action, published an open letter to Morlino on Sunday claiming that his leadership has led to poor morale among priests and caused some parishioners to stop attending Mass.
*************************************************************************
The longer you wait, the less the chance of your success.
Does the "poor morale" of
Does the "poor morale" of priests stated in the paragraph above include the over 30 seminarians for the Diocese? This is increased from about a total number of 2 in 2003 when Morlino entered the diocese. These young men must have very high morale ... and yes, they love their bishop. So, who is the real problem here?
Get your pound of
Get your pound of Flesh...
http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2008/06/consultant-sues-wisconsin-dio...
Tuesday, June 24, 2008
Consultant Sues Wisconsin Diocese After Pressure To Turn Over Confidential Data
Last Friday's Madison (WI) Capital Times reported on a lawsuit that was filed earlier this month in Dane County Circuit Court against the Catholic Diocese of Madison by Phoenix Fundraising Counsel of Madison. The lawsuit claims that the Diocese has failed to pay Phoenix $350,000 it owes for the firm's survey work in connection with a planned capital campaign to build a new cathedral. The paper reports that conservative Bishop Robert Morlino tried to pressure Phoenix CEO John Richert to turn over the names of priests who, in the survey, expressed concerns or complained about Morlino. Phoenix refused because it had promised confidentiality to those who participated in the survey.
Sue first, settle later: This
Sue first, settle later:
This bishop has a bad track record.
http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/local/312654
TUE., NOV 4, 2008 - 9:48 AM
Catholic Diocese of Madison facing second suit
DOUG ERICKSON
608-252-6149
derickson@madison.com
The legal battle between a local fundraising firm and the Catholic Diocese of Madison is not over after all.
Phoenix Fundraising Counsel filed a second lawsuit in Dane County Circuit Court on Friday, this time accusing Bishop Robert Morlino of breaking a confidentiality clause that was part of the settlement of its first lawsuit.
Phoenix Fundraising says Morlino agreed to make no comments beyond the joint statement issued by the two parties at the conclusion of the first lawsuit. Yet in a letter to diocesan priests, Morlino elaborated on the terms of the agreed-upon statement and denied that he or his staff requested confidential information about priests that was gathered during interviews conducted by the fundraising firm, according to the lawsuit filed Friday.
The latest lawsuit says part of the correspondence between Morlino and the priests is "completely false," although it doesn't specify which part.
The correspondence and its alleged falsehood constitute a breach of contract and have caused the fundraising firm "substantial damages," Phoenix says. It is asking the court to award it damages in an amount to be decided at trial, as well as costs associated with the lawsuit.
The diocese has 20 days to answer the court summons. Timothy Edwards, the attorney representing Phoenix, did not return calls for comment. Diocese spokesman Brent King said he could not address specific allegations.
"Like always, we ask all people to withhold judgment until these matters are resolved. And when it is appropriate, the diocese will have a response," King said in a statement. "As is always our recourse, we pray for God's justice and mercy in this and all disputes."
In June, Phoenix Fundraising alleged in its initial lawsuit that Morlino had asked the firm to turn over about 6,000 surveys that had been completed by parishioners and priests during a feasibility study on whether to rebuild a diocese cathedral. Phoenix President John Richert specifically accused Morlino of insisting on knowing the names of priests who had complained about Morlino.
The fundraising firm declined to turn over the information, saying parishioners and priests had been promised confidentiality. It alleged in its first lawsuit that the diocese would not pay its bill because the firm wouldn't turn over the surveys.
The diocese, in its court response to the first lawsuit, denied that Morlino sought the confidential information on priests.
The lawsuit was settled out of court in September, with no details released. In a joint statement, both parties said only that there was a "misunderstanding" as to whether Morlino sought confidential information on priests. The nature of the misunderstanding was not addressed.
Dear Anonymous, you say "God
Dear Anonymous, you say "God Bless the Bishop." Have you read what Jesus said, "God maketh the rain to fall equally on the just and the unjust." In other words, Jesus taught that God blesses and unconditionally loves everyone no matter their behaviour and no matter their beliefs and no matter their worldly or chuch office. But, I suspect that what you believe, contrary to Jesus, is that what God SHOULD do is to bless only those who agree with you. In other words, you agree with the bishop but disagree with Jesus. So, okay, you agree with the bishop, which is fine. Why? What are your reasons for agreeing? Or do you agree just because he is a person of authority who is to be obeyed regardless? Are you a person who obeys without thinking? There were many Catholics in Germany, and not very long ago, who obeyed without thinking. The result was a moral catastrophe. You need to develop your thinking, not react purely from emotion.
Develop his
Develop his thinking??!
Aloysius James,
You make quite a leap here when you say, "But, I suspect that what you believe, contrary to Jesus, is that what God SHOULD do is to bless only those who agree with you. In other words, you agree with the bishop but disagree with Jesus." (Huh????!!!!!)
That is not what was said at all. Here is a little help in developing your thinking:
Ms. Kolpack is A PUBLIC DISSENTER. She admits as much in the newspaper over the last couple of weeks, and is therefore not even "in full communion with the Catholic Church."* She rejects the Church's teaching against (at least) homosexual behavior and the reservation of Holy Orders to men alone.
How can a person who is not in full communion with the Catholic Church be trusted to teach authentic Catholic doctrine?
Bishop Morlino's conscience is rightly disturbed by having such a person teach in his name. He must, under these circumstances, maintain his position.
And God bless YOU. (Pst ... this doesn't mean that I don't want God to bless anyone who disagrees with you.)
*DOCTRINAL COMMENTARY ON THE CONCLUDING FORMULA OF THE PROFESSIO FIDEI (6)
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM
Dear Anonymous, maybe you are
Dear Anonymous, maybe you are right (and I am glad you had the courage to say why you agreed with the bishop). Maybe Kolpack diagrees with the bishop regarding women priests and homosexual behaviour. But you are wrong to think either of these things are "authentic Catholic doctrine." The Resurrection, the Ascension, the Assumption of Mary, etc. are authentic Catholic doctrine as well as the articles of the Creed. The two things you cite are not. They are merely the theological opinions of most of the bishops at the present time. Silencing those who disagree, like Kolpack, by all accounts a devout Catholic and even a worker in the Church's vineyard all her adult life, does not advance Catholic understanding of the faith, i.e., the implications of what Jesus taught. It retards it, just as the Communist Party in China silences dissenters. Jesus never tried to silence anyone. He respected and argued against those who disagreed with him. But, as we know, his opponents were the ones who tried to silence him by killing him. Fortunately for us, the silencing did not work.
Aloysius James, Let's please
Aloysius James,
Let's please try again.
When you say, "you are wrong to think either of these things are 'authentic Catholic doctrine,'" by who's authority do you speak?
Please read the cited document from the CDF which is an expression of the authentic Magisterium of the Church: The teaching that Holy Orders is reserved to men alone "has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium" of the Church(i). "Every believer ... is required to give firm and definitive assent to these truths" ... Therefore, "Whoever denies these truths would be in a position of rejecting a truth of Catholic doctrine and would therefore no longer be in full communion with the Catholic Church"(ii).
Ms. Kolpack denies this truth (at least) and is, therefore, not in full communion with the Catholic Church. She disagrees with the bishop, only because she rejects the binding teaching of the Church.
Furthermore, "it is important to emphasize that there is no difference with respect to the full and irrevocable character of the assent which is owed to these teachings," and the doctrines you cite above (the Resurrection, Ascension, etc.)(iii).
These are a sample of the documents Catholics (including Bishop Morlino) must honor in accepting the Church's authoritative teaching. Indeed, insuring this teaching is maintained in his diocese is one of the criteria by which Bishop Morlino will be judged by Jesus Christ. And if one cannot respect his conscience in this regard, I'm not sure what conscientious decision they can respect.
Please read the whole document. It is only eight pages.
(i)Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, DOCTRINAL COMMENTARY ON THE CONCLUDING FORMULA OF THE PROFESSIO FIDEI, (11.4) http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM
(ii) Ibid., (6.2).
(iii) Ibid., (8).
Dear Anonymous, You speak for
Dear Anonymous,
You speak for the Magisterium quite well and you put your faith in them and judge against those who do not believe that any man is greater than the authority of Jesus Christ. The doctrine of infallibility is a corporate fabrication of authority.
To prove it is a fabrication read the New Testament because in the teachings of Jesus Christ, in his Word become flesh, He says: "Follow me."
Where in the Bible does it say to 'Follow the Magisterium?'
Please tell us here where it says that Jesus will only deposit the faith to the Magisterium?
Furthermore, firing Ms. Kolpack because she has a different opinion than Bishop Morlino is an unconscionable act that no sensible or loving Catholic can honor because it goes against the teachings of Jesus Christ to "love one another."
Which of the teachings is greater: A) The teachings of the Magisterium or B) the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Hi there A2, Please allow me
Hi there A2,
Please allow me to quote from your text and respond.
--"Where in the Bible does it say to 'Follow the Magisterium?'"
Just a sample:
"You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. What you bind on earth is bound in heaven. What you loose on earth is loosed in heaven." To the apostles: "I will send you the spirit of truth ... to guide you to all truth ... those who hear you hear me ... those who reject you reject me ... I with you always even until the end of the age."
Historically, the Pope and the bishops (i.e. the "Magisterium") are the successors of St. Peter and the Apostles. Those who hear THEM, hear CHRIST.
To know this, and to believe it, is to be a Catholic. To reject this truth is to NOT be a Catholic. The opinions you express above indicate that you are either confussed on this fundamental point, or, you are not a Catholic.
--"Furthermore, firing Ms. Kolpack because she has a different opinion than Bishop Morlino ..."
This has nothing to do with Bishop Morlino's "opinion" about anything. Ms. Kolpack rejects the OBJECTIVE teaching of the Church. Bishop Morlino dutifully ASSENTS to the OBJECTIVE teaching of the Church, and he must maintain that teaching in his diocese (lest he be condemned to hell, forever).
--"... is an unconscionable act that no sensible or loving Catholic can honor because it goes against the teachings of Jesus Christ to 'love one another.'"
What if she was teaching that Jesus was really the devil? Should the Bishop have to keep paying her to teach this because it wouldn't be "loving" to fire her? Does this make sense? Are there any logical limits to your statement? If so, what are they? The teaching of the Church, perhaps? Besides, maintaining the truth of the faith is always the authentically loving thing to do ... like punishing your child when he or she lies to you. The punishment is LOVE.
--"Which of the teachings is greater: A) The teachings of the Magisterium or B) the teachings of Jesus Christ."
Now pay close attention here ... because of my first explanation above, you will see that the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Magisterium ARE EXACTLY THE SAME THING. And that is the beauty and miracle of being Catholic. Jesus' mind is still with us ... as his entire self in His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist. He is TOTALLY within the Catholic Church. It's HIM!
Nicely put. Pax.
Nicely put. Pax.
Kolpack was fired by the
Kolpack was fired by the Bishop for her Master's Thesis.
Kolpack refused to recant her thesis; so she was fired.
http://ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/wisconsin-parish-worker-fired-fem...
Kolpack can get justice only from the courts of law, not from "anonymous" letters to NCR.
Kolpack ought to sue:
1. the University that allowed her to present a Heretical thesis.
2. the Bishop for wrongful termination.
Kolpack has written:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13441413/Ruth-Kolpack-Thesis
MEN are "TEACHERS" and women are "LEARNERS"
Besides, Kolpack cites the book:
Kimball, Charles. When Religion Becomes Evil. New York: HarperCollins, 2002.
The Bishop DID NOT have to read the entire dissertation.
Just these few pages were TOO MUCH for him.
Page 33 of dissertation:
"Other examples of evil manifested by absolute claims of truth are: the Catholic hierarchy‘s claim that only males were chosen by Jesus to be apostles and so only males can be ordained."
Page40-41 of dissertation:
"Vatican officials, questioning the process of consultation with women, asserted that Bishops are teachers, not learners; truth cannot emerge through consultation. This same process of consultation was used successfully for two previous documents. This raises the question of why consultation was an issue at this time. One could conclude that it was because of who was being consulted and the opinions that were voiced."
"Was religious evil present in this process?"
"Yes, there is religious evil here in the fact that the bishops claimed absolute truth in stating that truth lies in them and not in the experiences of the women consulted. The bishops have used their position as religious leaders to crush the spirit of the women consulted for this document. They diminished the experiences of these women as irrelevant and rendered them to their proper position as learners, dependent on those who claim to have the truth within them to teach them
Kolpack was fired according
Kolpack was fired according to the JournalSentinel of Mar. 20, 2009 for:
"she'd have to renounce her master's thesis on noninclusive language in the Catholic Mass or lose her job."
This is solid grounds to sue BOTH:
1. the Bishop for wrongful termination and.
2. Saint Francis de Sales Seminary, [3257 S. Lake Drive, St. Francis, WI 53235. Telephone:(414) 747-6437 FAX:(414) 747-6442] for "MISGUIDING" and permitting a "HERETICAL" Thesis
****************************************************************************
http://www.jsonline.com/features/religion/41612247.html
Supporters lobby for Catholic lay worker in Beloit
By Annysa Johnson of the Journal Sentinel
Posted: Mar. 20, 2009
Supporters of a Catholic lay worker fired this month by Madison Bishop Robert C. Morlino for allegedly advocating views contrary to Catholic teaching - a charge she denies - are lobbying to get her job back.
Morlino has agreed to meet in April with parishioners of St. Thomas the Apostle Catholic Church in Beloit, where Ruth Kolpack has worked 26 years, the last 10 as a pastoral associate, to discuss her dismissal.
Spokesmen for the diocese have declined to comment on the allegations, but one said Friday that lay workers responsible for teaching the faith cannot stray from established church doctrine.
Kolpack insists she upholds Catholic teachings in her work as a pastoral associate but may hold some views contrary to the church as a matter of personal conscience.
"It's a question of private conversations vs. my professional role in the parish, and they have to be kept separate," said Kolpack, who holds a master of divinity degree from Saint Francis de Sales Seminary in St. Francis. "You need to teach the teachings of the church. But you can have your own opinions. I can separate the two."
Morlino has been mentioned as a possible successor to Milwaukee Archbishop Timothy M. Dolan, who becomes archbishop of New York in April.
As a pastoral associate, Kolpack served as the parish administrator and religious educator; she visited the sick and shut-ins and performed many of the functions of a priest, except celebrating the sacraments.
Supporters called her a devout Catholic and compassionate and conscientious teacher of the faith.
"This is very sad. There's something wrong with the process when a woman whose track record as a lay minister has been extraordinary," said Father Andrew Nelson, retired rector of Saint Francis de Sales seminary when Kolpack studied there.
"This might be a sign of a certain antagonism toward lay women in ministry in the church, and I feel so bad about that," he said.
Kolpack was fired March 12 after a brief meeting with Morlino in which she says she was told she'd have to renounce her master's thesis on noninclusive language in the Catholic Mass or lose her job.
But her troubles began in January, she said, when allegations were made that she, among other things, encouraged non-Catholics to take communion in Catholic churches, believes in women's ordination and believes she can consecrate the Eucharist, a role reserved for ordained clergy.
Kolpack denied the allegations and said they might stem from hypothetical situations she presented in discussions with a Catholic student group at Beloit College or in a private conversation with students afterward.
William Yallaly, an assistant to Morlino, said he did not know the allegations, but debating theology isn't the role of catechism teachers.
"There is definitely a place for considering issues in theological debates," he said. "But the job of a catechist is to teach those truths and not to get into theological debate."
Supporters have rallied around Kolpack, staging rallies last weekend and circulating petitions to reinstate her.
Yallaly said he didn't know whether that was a possibility and reiterated Morlino's comment to Kolpack's supporters last weekend: "You never say never, but it would be wrong of me to raise hopes in that regard."
Bishop Morlino continues the
Bishop Morlino continues the ineptitude of so many American bishops who do not know their parishes, do not develop them and are only involved in censuring not building. As a result they destroy the church and have to buy priests from other countries which is what is happening.
Buy Priests for Buffalo, New
Buy Priests for Buffalo, New York
"As a result they destroy the church and have to buy priests from other countries which is what is happening."
http://www.buffalonews.com/nationalworld/state/story/480629.html
Diocese bars priest named in suit
Bishop Morlino has 30
Bishop Morlino has 30 seminarians. He is certainly building. And by the way, they all love their bishop and love the authentic Catholic Faith.
This article is necessary
This article is necessary why? The support this women gets from these NCR writers that support such deviant behavior makes me think this firing is 35 years late.
Dear Anonymous, you mention
Dear Anonymous, you mention devianf behavior. Are you speaking of the misbehavior of Bishop Marino, because he surely seems to be a poor example of christian leadership. If we as the People of God do not demand that our leaders behave better then we become culpable in their misbehavior and yes of their sins.
Peace and understanding,
R. Dennis Porch, MD
Example of Deviant
Example of Deviant Behavior
Phoenix Fundraising Counsel Limited Says Diocese Owes $350,000
UPDATED: 6:44 pm CDT June 23, 2008
MADISON, Wis. -- The Madison Catholic diocese finds itself the target of a lawsuit filed by Phoenix Fundraising Counsel Limited.
Phoenix said it was hired to gauge fundraising prospects for a new cathedral, WISC-TV reported.
The study included confidential surveys, according to Phoenix.
Phoenix officials said Bishop Robert Morlino wanted the confidential surveys and they refused to give them to him. Soon after Phoenix was cut loose by the diocese but said it was never paid $350,000 for its work.
The lawsuit states that Morlino "insisted the disclosure of the confidential data, including the names of specific priests who had expressed concerns or registered complaints about Bishop Morlino," WISC-TV reported.
http://www.channel3000.com/news/16689716/detail.html
A MERE (FORMER)
A MERE (FORMER) ALLEGATION
This story you quote was a mere allegation. My sources tell me Phoenix never even had a contract for the work they charged the Diocese with. What they did have is the ability to embarrass and distract the bishop with a hostile local media.
Thus, we have a settlement between the two parties which you fail to acknowledge which stated:
"1. The parties regret that there was a misunderstanding with respect to any request by the Diocese for information regarding the priests of the Diocese or their surveys."*
Beware of slander and libel. These are still sins. And, quite frankly, I'm shocked on how quickly posters here, and so-called "Catholics" in the United States, will be inclined to think the very worst of their bishops. It doesn't make sense. These are men who have laid down their lives of Jesus Christ, and for us (at least). Does it mean they are perfect? Of course not ... but to assume evil intentions of them is clearly a serious lack of charity.
* http://www.madisoncatholicherald.org/news/around-diocese/145-settlement-...
Anonymous, Please
Anonymous,
Please read:
http://www.inbusinessmagazine.com/augustupwall
Yes, I read this a long time
Yes, I read this a long time ago.
It is completely baseless on every point. He takes legal allegations as established fact and mixes them in with lots of other misinformation and half-truth.
And I find it so bizarre how people (Catholics!) are so quick to think the absolute worst of their bishop. How is that? Here is a man who laid down his life for Jesus Christ and has faithfully followed him with excellence his entire life. Why is it, really, that people despise him when he has done nothing wrong? ... Except for the same reason they hated Christ? His mere presence convicted their consciences that they were not quite what they are supposed to be. His fidelity to Christ and His Church highlights their infidelity. As Christ promised, "If they hated me, they will hate you also."
Furthermore, the author of this story is in no way a faithful Catholic, I know him and his family.
Once again Anonymous, your
Once again Anonymous, your words do not make sense, "And I find it so bizarre how people (Catholics!) are so quick to think the absolute worst of their bishop,"
If the Bishops had not handled the sexual scandal, many financial scandals so poorly and listened to their own theologians and scientists, perhaps they would have earned some authenticity. As it is, they depend upon us to obey their very authoritarian commands to the point that the Bishops are seen as completely irrelevant to the reality of society.
Peace and understanding,
R. Dennis Porch, MD
Oh, OK. I think I understand
Oh, OK. I think I understand now. Bishop Morlino doesn't have credibility because he is a bishop and some bishops mishandled the sex abuse scandal etc. Yes, I guess that does make sense, if you happen to be an MD who missed undergrad logic class because he was studying chemistry.
Isn't that also sort of like Medical Doctors having no credibility because they slaughter 1.5 million preborn boys and girls every year? How is it that you dare to comment on anything since MD's slaughter so many kids? Why should anyone trust you? You and your profession have no credibility because of all the dead babies, euthanasia, abortifacients, RU-486, etc.
Again, I advise you to stick to medicine. Being an MD prepares you in no way for theological, or even simply logical discussion, as you have so aptly demonstrated. And I'm sure Bishop Morlino will be quite content not telling you how to do your job ... (after all, you know, it's not his field). I suggest you do the same.
Once again it is easy to be a
Once again it is easy to be a coward and spew invective anonymously.
Confess up or clam up.
God Bless You, Mr. Grouch.
God Bless You, Mr. Grouch. Pray Pay Obey!
Yes, just like everyone else
Yes, just like everyone else who has entered the Mystical Body of Christ since the time of the apostles. Every single one is called to "pray" to Christ, "pay" (both monetarily and taking up one's cross to follow Christ ... or not be worthy of Him), and to "obey" Christ, especially through the sacramental teaching of His Church.
This is true for Pope Benedict who entered the Church through baptism a few days following his birth, and must now "pray," "pay" (with his entire life), and "obey" Jesus Christ through the tradition of the Church. It is therefore true for Ms. Kolpack as well ... should she wish to be in full communion with the Church (which she is not right now).
I encourage you to join as well. His yoke is easy and His burden light.
Dear Anonymous, You must know
Dear Anonymous,
You must know that there is such a thing as loyal dissent. When our bishops and priests go so far as to make a god of orthodoxy, they are following something other than the Holy Spirit.
Jack
Prove it Jack. Is that in
Prove it Jack. Is that in the documents? By who's authority do you speak?
Dear Jack, Your argument
Dear Jack,
Your argument doesn't hold water philosophically or theologically. By its definition, "orthodoxy" means "right belief." If there is a "right belief," an objective truth,then to dissent from it is to err, to become "heterodox," the opposite of "orthodox." You rather obliquely cite the Holy Spirit. Who makes the authoritative decision that this belief or that belief is the prompting of the Third Person of the Most Holy and Blessed Trinity?
There is no loyal dissent from orthodoxy. Orthodoxy, by definition, cannot make a god of anything other than God.
John Kirk
John, if truth never changes,
John, if truth never changes, then the belief, up until about 110 years ago, that life began at the quickening of the child, or when it first moved in its mother's womb, would make abortion ok until the fourth month, when the first movement is usually felt. Truth may not change, but the human understanding of truth does change. You do remember when the Church kept Galileo under house arrest for the blasphemy that the earth revolved around the sun, rather than the sun revolving around the earth. The leaders of the Church made this man's life a living hell because of this. So, you might want to question absolutism just a wee bit. Sometimes, further information brings about new thought. If that weren't the case, we'd all be living in caves and wouldn't even have a wheel. Open that mind of yours...you might find it refreshing.
If I may quote you and
If I may quote you and respond:
--"if truth never changes, then the belief, up until about 110 years ago, that life began at the quickening of the child, or when it first moved in its mother's womb, would make abortion ok until the fourth month, when the first movement is usually felt."
The theory, advanced by St. Thomas Aquinas was that the rational soul entered the body at quickening. Of course, he didn't have sonograms, and would certainly assent to the Church's teaching today with the available information. Nonetheless, abortion was never considered OK by the Church either.
--"You do remember when the Church kept Galileo under house arrest for the blasphemy that the earth revolved around the sun, rather than the sun revolving around the earth."
Galileo was put under house arrest, not because of his theory of heliocentricity (which had long been considered a valid theory by the Church), but because, absent sufficient evidence to verify his THEORY he insisted the Church proclaim it as "Truth" and determine that the Sacred Scriptures were wrong necessitating, immediately, a different interpretation of certain passages of scripture. He was not, therefore, put under house arrest because he was a naughty scientist, but because he was (obnoxiously) overstepping his competence in theological matters.
--"Sometimes, further information brings about new thought."
You are right to say this, for it is very true. But it is not true in the sense that it can CHANGE our understanding of the nature of the Trinity, the duel nature of Jesus Christ, the founding of the Church, the nature of marriage or the fact that only men can be bridegrooms and therefore, only men can be admitted to Holy Orders. And these final two issues are what is relevant in this discussion. Ms. Kolpack publicly denies these doctrines and is therefore not in full communion with the Catholic Church.
Your encouragement to keep an open mind in well and good. But as Chesterton says, don't have your mind so "open" that your brains fall out.
God Bless.
The Holy Spirit is adverse to
The Holy Spirit is adverse to "right thinking"? For this is the meaning of the word "orthodoxy." Does that make sense to you?
And a "god of orthodoxy"? A god of right thinking? Should we avoid "right thinking" to be in union with the Holy Spirit? What spirit is it that proposes "false thinking"? Or lies? Or was called a liar and a murderer from the beginning by Jesus Christ?
I think I know what spirit you are following Jack, and it is not the Holy Spirit.
Furthermore, "Loyal Dissent" may be an applicable term for politics, but it has no place in the Church.
I think more charity should
I think more charity should be extended to Bishop Morlino from his detractors who have have made out to be some sort of an evil villan.
Morlino could have not showed up at all, but instead, like a good pastor, he went to listen to Ruth's supporters. He did not go there to condemn or to preach to anyone...he went to listen.
I think this pastoral act from Bishop Morlino should be commended, but I am sure many of the same people who have attacked him on here, will show no such charity to a man that has shown great charity in this situation.
God bless Bishop Morlino!
You know you may be right,
You know you may be right, perhaps it is pastoral. Yet, may be it is nothing more than going into a control M. O. and just a show. It is just too early to tell. Let´s wait and see what actions/explanation are a result of his willingness to meet with the parishioners.
"Trouble in
"Trouble in Madison"
http://deacbench.blogspot.com/2008/06/trouble-in-madison.html
Friday, June 20, 2008
That was the subject line on an e-mail I received from a deacon friend, who forwarded me this article from a newspaper in Madison, Wisconsin.
I hadn't heard anything about it, but it looks like something we should keep an eye on:
A fundraising firm hired by the Madison Catholic Diocese to gauge support for rebuilding St. Raphael Cathedral says Bishop Robert Morlino insisted the firm turn over confidential information gathered from surveys and interviews, including the names of priests who complained about Morlino.
The firm, Phoenix Fundraising Counsel of Madison, says it refused to disclose the confidential data on priests and parishioners and now can't get the diocese to pay its bill.
It has sued the diocese in Dane County Circuit Court for payment of at least $350,000, which includes work on a feasibility study and a planned capital campaign.
The episode is the latest controversy for Morlino, a blunt-spoken bishop who has sometimes been accused of heavy-handedness during his five-year tenure, particularly in his relations with priests.
The lawsuit comes at a critical point for the diocese as it tries to rally support for replacing St. Raphael, the Downtown Madison cathedral destroyed by an arsonist in 2005. A planned capital campaign to rebuild the cathedral and pay for other projects, such as a priest retirement fund, was put on hold by Morlino in April.
The diocese has never revealed a goal for the campaign, but the lawsuit says Morlino favors a $70 million campaign.
Morlino declined an interview request Thursday. Diocese spokesman Brent King said the diocese does not comment on pending litigation and no one, including the diocese's attorney, would address the issue further. King described the lawsuit as a disagreement over "fair compensation for services rendered."
According to the lawsuit, Phoenix Fundraising surveyed 6,000 parishioners and interviewed 83 diocesan priests. In a letter last November that is part of the lawsuit, Morlino told parishioners "all responses will be considered confidential."
Priests also were granted confidentiality, according to the lawsuit. This was especially critical so they "felt free to comment without fear of repercussion," the lawsuit says. Many of these priests "expressed concerns that were later summarized, without identifying information, in a report" to Morlino.
John Richert, president of Phoenix Fundraising, contends in the lawsuit that when he met with Morlino March 7, the bishop wanted the firm to turn over all 6,000 surveys as well as information from the priest interviews.
"Bishop Morlino insisted on the disclosure of the confidential data, including the names of specific priests who had expressed concerns or registered complaints about Bishop Morlino during the survey process," the lawsuit says. "Bishop Morlino was visibly agitated when Richert refused to turn over this confidential information."
At a meeting 19 days later, Morlino informed Richert that the diocese would no longer need the firm's services, the lawsuit says. Monsignor Donald Heiar also was at the meeting.
"Monsignor Heiar and Dr. Richert agreed after that meeting that Bishop Morlino did not want Phoenix Fundraising to continue on the capital campaign because he was upset that Mr. Richert refused to turn over the confidential responses from the priests for his review," the lawsuit says.
Heiar could not be reached for comment. Richert did not return messages. Attorney Timothy Edwards, who represents Phoenix, was out of town and unavailable.
The mentality behind the
The mentality behind the thinking of "Moderate Catholic" is the same thinking that has kept clerics in a position of superiority even though they may not be deserving. The medieval model of church governance where the bishop is supreme is inconsistent with the notion of community.
The fact that the bishop attended a meeting is no great thing. What was his motivation? I suspect some of his thinking may have been that by going to a meeting he might be able to tamp this situation down a bit. Well, I hope that the people of this parish and this diocese do not see this gesture as something out of the ordinary. The community must be served and if the bishop does not reinstate Ruth Kolpack then the part of the community that sees this as an injustice must take action.
The mentality behind the
The mentality behind the thinking of "Moderate Catholic" is the same thinking that has kept clerics in a position of superiority even though they may not be deserving. The medieval model of church governance where the bishop is supreme is inconsistent with the notion of community.
The fact that the bishop attended a meeting is no great thing. What was his motivation? I suspect some of his thinking may have been that by going to a meeting he might be able to tamp this situation down a bit. Well, I hope that the people of this parish and this diocese do not see this gesture as something out of the ordinary. The community must be served and if the bishop does not reinstate Ruth Kolpack then the part of the community that sees this as an injustice must take action.
Larry, When you say, "The
Larry,
When you say, "The medieval model of church governance where the bishop is supreme is inconsistent with the notion of community," is not medieval at all but actually stems from the apostles themselves and therefore Jesus Christ. It's His model.
As taught by St. Ignatius of Antioch (da. 107-110 AD):
"Thus, it is proper for you to act together in harmony with the mind of the bishop, ... For it is written, God resists the proud. Let us, therefore, be careful not to oppose the bishop, in order that we may be obedient to God."
As for Ms. Kolpack, SHE IS A PUBLIC DISSENTER. This is clearly spelled out in the newspaper (!) and therefore she is not even "in full communion with the Catholic Church."* She rejects the Church's teaching against (at least) homosexual behavior and the reservation of Holy Orders to men alone.
How can a person who is not in full communion with the Catholic Church be trusted to teach authentic Catholic doctrine?
Bishop Morlino's conscience is rightly disturbed by having such a person teach in his name. He must, under these circumstances, maintain his position.
*DOCTRINAL COMMENTARY ON THE CONCLUDING FORMULA OF THE PROFESSIO FIDEI (6)
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM
Dear Anonymous, you
Dear Anonymous, you stated,
'When you say, "The medieval model of church governance where the bishop is supreme is inconsistent with the notion of community," is not medieval at all but actually stems from the apostles themselves and therefore Jesus Christ. It's His model.'
Jesus NEVER set up any model of governance for his church. And he certainly never set up the monarchial system. This evolved from the Church cozying up to the Roman empire's model. Peter was considered the "first among equals" not the "Supreme Pontiff" model that we have today.
Secondly, Bishops back in St. Ignatius of Antioch's time---were not like Bishops today. They were husbands and fathers---they headed groups of small home churches---maybe a cluster of 50 to 100 people in their city. They did not live in mansions like today---nor wear all the jewelry and lace---like the dandified bishops do today. These men actually worked with their hands to support their families. Of course, one could really look up to them. And they cared personally for the people in their city along with their wives--working along side of them. It is too bad that these 'so called orthodox Catholics' know so little about their Church's real history.
Secondly, homosexuals---do they act the way they do because they CHOOSE to or is this behavior in their genetic makeup---like being a left-handed person? One hundred years ago---teachers used to beat children if they used their left hands---because the 'common belief' was that lefties were adhearing to the dictates of the Devil---who will be gathered at the Last Judgement on Christ's left and condemned to Hell. I don't doubt for an instant that in about a few more years, we will learn that homosexuality is also programed into the genetic code. Then the official Church will have to explain why it condemned people for demonstrating behaviors that they did not choose---or that it is not a "sin".
Hey LittleBear, If I
Hey LittleBear,
If I may:
--"Jesus NEVER set up any model of governance for his church. And he certainly never set up the monarchial system."
"You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. What you bind on earth is bound in heaven. What you loose on earth is loosed in heaven" (sounds pretty much Supreme Pontiff to me ... and all of the distinctions on the role of the Pope and bishops are properly laid out by the Church as an actualization of what Christ DID, which is reflected in sacred scripture.
To the apostles: "I will send you the spirit of truth ... to guide you to all truth ... those who hear you hear me ... those who reject you reject me ... I with you always even until the end of the age."
Christ called the Twelve, the "new wine skins" for the new wine of the new covenant. He certainly set up governance ... and Catholics recognize this ... just read the Second Vatican Council ... Lumen Gentium.
--"Secondly, Bishops back in St. Ignatius of Antioch's time---were not like Bishops today."
OK, I'll accept that some bishops back in those days did not live like your typical American bishops today. (Then again, there are probably bishops in China right now subject to forced labor, assembling shoes you can purchase at Wal-Mart.) One's condition of life is going to depend on, well, one's condition of life. Having responsibility for 50 to 100 people is going to be less demanding than responsibilty for a million. So, are you suggesting St. Ignatius would tell you to be disobedient and disrespectful to your bishop today?
--"... homosexuals---do they act the way they do because they CHOOSE to or is this behavior in their genetic makeup ..."
Well, I know most guys have a "genetic makeup" that inclines them to desire sex with multiple women ... every day. Why? Because of "fallen human nature." But what do they CHOOSE? They choose God's grace and to order their moral life according to reason and proper nature. It is called "chastity" and it is required for every single person in order to be saved whether they are married, single, or inflicted with homosexual attraction. The good news is, Jesus Christ gives us all the grace to do it.
Am I wrong, or were we not
Am I wrong, or were we not taught that God is a purely spiritual being? Thus, whichever words we use, male or female, would be both appropriate and correct. Why would anyone care enough to dismiss this woman from pastoral work merely for pointing out that all the male images and words used to describe God are less than satifactory because God, as a spirit, is neither male nor female. I would agree that though I had never thought about it too deeply before, using those male terms to speak of God does reinforce the idea of the dominant male.
Dismissing this woman for her doctoral thesis pointing this out is like executing someone for running a red light. It's not as if the Catholic Church weren't already wel-known to be a sexist male-dominated organization. Nothing new here.
Over and over again.... she
Over and over again.... she was NOT dismissed for her thesis. If CALL TO ACTION and NCR would stop pushing this line, you might actually help poor Ruth convince her Bishop that she can be trusted in a position of parish leadership.
Ready, Fire, AIM "When asked
Ready, Fire, AIM
"When asked if she knew why she had been fired, she said the focus seemed to have shifted from her thesis to claims that in her parish work she had diverged from official Catholic teaching. This claim seemed to be at the heart of the diocesan statement released earlier in the week."
*****************************************************************************
Stick to the Original Reason for his "FIRING" and SUE both the Bishop and the
Board of Trustees of Saint Francis de Sales Seminary, 3257 South Lake Drive, St.Francis, WI53235.
The Seminary mentions in its website http://www.sfs.edu/aboutus_ourstory.html
" Intellectual formation is carried out in collaboration with Sacred Heart School of Theology, through the Master of Divinity degree program. The seminary provides human, spiritual and pastoral preparation in accord with our longtime motto, "You are the salt of the earth" (Matthew 5:13a).
The Most Reverend Timothy M. Dolan
Archbishop of Milwaukee
The Most Reverend Richard J. Sklba
Vicar General/Auxiliary Bishop of Milwaukee
Very Reverend Donald J. Hying
Saint Francis de Sales Seminary Rector
3257 South Lake Drive, St.Francis, WI53235
dhying@sfs.edu
414-747-6412
Deacon David Backes
Deacon Michael F. Burch
Very Reverend Thomas P. Cassidy, S.C.J.
Kathleen R. Dahlgren, Esq.
Very Rev. Jan de Jong, SCJ, STD,STL
Lindsey Draper
Barbara Gannon
Peggy Gregorski
Rev. Leslie J. Hoppe, O.F.M.
Rev. Jerome M. Hudziak
Rev. William Kohler
Sr. Marcia Lunz, OSF
Bishop Robert C. Morlino
Bishop of the Diocese of Madison, Wisconsin
Rev. David Reith
Dr. Daniel J. Scholz
Richard H. Sonnentag
Tom Tuttle
Madeline Wake
******************************************************************************
As it was the "HERETICAL" Thesis that was the REASON for "FIRING", the Seminary cannot be let off the hook for "Tolerating, Encouraging, and Approving" all the "HERESY" contained in the thesis.
They too (http://www.sfs.edu/aboutus_ourstory.html) ought to pay for failing in their duty to prepare their students free of "HERESY". They have clearly stated:
" Intellectual formation is carried out in collaboration with Sacred Heart School of Theology, through the Master of Divinity degree program. The seminary provides human, spiritual and pastoral preparation in accord with our longtime motto, "You are the salt of the earth" (Matthew 5:13a).
Obviously, Bishop Morlino does not consider the Seminary capable of performing its function. It seems that the "HERETICAL" Thesis could well be the SOLE reason that may prevent Kolpack from being hired by any Parish anywhere in the country.
The Seminary ought to be sued for "approving" such a "HERETICAL" Thesis.
Please also inform:
Bishop Pietro Sambi,
Apostolic Nuncio,
3339 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W, Washington, DC, 20008
Telephone: (202)333-7121; Fax:(202)337-4036
U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops
3211 Fourth Street, N.E.
Washington, D.C. 20017
Telephone: (202) 541-3000
Very Reverend Donald J. Hying
Saint Francis de Sales Seminary Rector
3257 South Lake Drive, St.Francis, WI53235
dhying@sfs.edu
Telephone: 414-747-6412
Most Reverend Robert C. Morlino
Diocese of Madison
702 S. High Point Road
P.O. Box 44983
Madison, WI 53744-4983
Telephone: 608-821-3000; Fax: 608-821-4552
You are wrong. Jesus is God
You are wrong. Jesus is God come in the flesh... grace and peace with prayers always...
And that would have what to
And that would have what to do with God being a spirit? That would have what to do with this discussion of inclusive language? You sound as if you may have a little problem in the scruples department in seeing an insult to God in anything that I wrote. And I am not wrong about that one.
For all the reason you
For all the reason you listed, are the reasons the Bishop listened and did not enter into any dialogue with the parishoners. Once again the male-dominated C. Church said a lot by saying nothing.
You are correct. It is
You are correct. It is impossible to trust bishops chosen by a hidden incestuous process where they choose only those who are like themselves. That's what allowed the whole sex scandal in the church to continue on for so many years. Bishops should step down or been prosecuted. By their actions they failed their fiduciary responsibility to the church as well, making possible all of the lawsuits, many of which have resulted in church closings to generate funds. It is time for us to take back the church. As far as I'm concerned, it is the bishops who have left the church. They retain their positions illegally. They should be expelled.
It is interesting that an
It is interesting that an Infinite Being can not be either just male or just female, an Infinite Being is both and much more. Bishop Marino clearly is committing a serious error of injustice with this woman.
Never mind we have Bishops committing so many other serious errors recently, when we examine the sexual scandal and the crisis that the Episcopacy initiated by their misbehavior of transferring child rapists from job to job. The Bishops are involved in many financial misadventures and their misunderstanding of human sexuality that they are really culpable in the degradation of our church.
We the People of God are culpable if we do not point these failures out and demand that there be a better selection method for these administrators. They claim to be THE teachers of their diocese, yet they can not be taught by their own theologians, scientists or philosophers. This is such a shameful state of affairs that the laity must not continue to tolerate many of these men. The Church can not continue to have leaders deserving of little respect.
Peace and understanding,
R. Dennis Porch, MD
SHE IS A PUBLIC DISSENTER Dr.
SHE IS A PUBLIC DISSENTER
Dr. Porch, MD,
I suggest you stick with medicine. You say Bishop "Marino" (sic) "clearly is committing a serious error of injustice with this woman"?????
SHE IS A PUBLIC DISSENTER. If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know, just from the newspaper, that she is not even "in full communion with the Catholic Church."* She rejects the Church's teaching against (at least) homosexual behavior and the reservation of Holy Orders to men alone.
How can a person who is not in full communion with the Catholic Church be trusted to teach authentic Catholic doctrine?
Bishop Morlino's conscience is rightly disturbed by having such a person teach in his name. He must, under these circumstances, maintain his position.
And perhaps we can trust the good Bishop to stay out of medicine as well. (I find it funny how MD's seem to disproportionately presume a medical degree makes them experts on everything.)
*DOCTRINAL COMMENTARY ON THE CONCLUDING FORMULA OF THE PROFESSIO FIDEI (6)
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM
Amen! It is my experience
Amen! It is my experience that Medical Doctors are very well trained, but not very well educated.
I second that "AMEN"! No
I second that "AMEN"!
No offense, Doc...but your expertise is clearly not in theology. Please don't quit your day job.
God bless!
I guess some of you people
I guess some of you people would want me to give back my masters in catholic philosophy earned prior to my MD. I think it is indicative of the problems of our Bishops when those who would defend this horrible leadership will not stick to the facts, but like so many of the Bishops stoop to unreasoned criticism of a discusant. I find so many of you willing to kill the messengers reporting this incredible incompetence of so many in our administrators. The sexual scandal in which these foolish men covered up the rape of our children is but the tip of the iceberg. For you who defend them, you share in their culpability. I wonder how many from the office of the Episcopacy share the name anonymous on these boards. Shame on our leadership, they keep ever deepening the crises of misbehavior with their unjust attack of this woman and another woman recently in St. Louis. It seems that their minds are deadened to common ethical decency!
Only when we change the way we choose our leadership will we have Peace and understanding as a Christlike people.
R. Dennis Porch, MD
Do you accuse Bishop Morlino
Do you accuse Bishop Morlino of "covering up the rape of our children"? If so, produce the evidence. If not, why to you accuse me of defending those who did? In Catholic Philosophy they would call that a straw-man fallacy.
Secondly, you have yet to demonstrate how exactly the Bishop's termination of a woman who rejects the Catholic faith from teaching the Catholic faith in one of his parishes is unjust.
And I wonder how many abortionist MD's are on these boards attacking the bishop. Shame on them!
--"I think it is indicative
--"I think it is indicative of the problems of our Bishops when those who would defend this horrible leadership will not stick to the facts ..."
The FACTS (that you avoided above) are that Ms. Kolpack is a PUBLIC DISSENTER ... and the Bishop has a duty to have the Catholic Faith authentically represented in his parishes.
Can this get any easier to understand? Sorry, but THIS SITUATION HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SEX SCANDAL. And THAT is a FACT.
Please stick to the facts.
Thank you.
Your position that "whichever
Your position that "whichever words we use, male or female, would be both appropriate and correct" would be true for a natural theology of man seeking God. However, Christianity is a religion of God seeking man ... and He reveals Himself as "Father" and we presume this is for a reason and should, therefore, be obedient to His revelation.
Secondly, when you ask, "Why would anyone care enough to dismiss this woman from pastoral work merely for pointing out that all the male images and words used to describe God are less than satifactory ..." presumes that she indeed was dismissed for this reason. According to the Diocese of Madison, this doesn't appear to be the case.
Here is the statement:
http://www.madisondiocese.org/Portals/0/Communications/Press%20Releases/...
God "reveals Himself as
God "reveals Himself as Father" because women were not even considered separate people in the age of the establishment of our religion. Women were the property of the dominant male. Many things and many understandings have changed since those times. If the Church, which has been built over the centuries on the many works of women as well as men, if that Church doesn't adjust to these realities, it will die as an institution. If that can't be seen by thinking people, I don't hold much hope that the Catholic Church will endure forever. Time for the old white men who have held the power in the Church since time immemorial to share their power.
All this statement by the
All this statement by the Bishop does is prove my case. This is, indeed, like being executed for running a red light. This woman is speaking about inclusive language, not pro-abortion, not questioning the divinity of Christ, not questioning the infallibility of the Pope, not questioning any of the basic tenets of the faith. All she is discussing in her thesis is the gender identification of a totally spritual being. The fact that she also teaches has nothing to do with this. Anyone who knows very many Catholic religion teachers knows that many of them don't agree with one or another of the teachings of the Catholic Church, yet have never been challenged as teachers. Mrs Kolpack agreed to take an oath of fidelity to the Catholic Church. She has not be accused of having taught anything contrary to those basic teachings. Bishop Morlino merely suspects that that could happen.
So, out with her. The Catholic Church has lost a lot of good people who wanted to serve for taking this inflexible stand on an array of subjects. Too bad..
Huh? You say, "This woman is
Huh?
You say, "This woman is speaking about inclusive language, not pro-abortion, not questioning the divinity of Christ, not questioning the infallibility of the Pope, not questioning any of the basic tenets of the faith."
She is in the newspaper, on record, in favor of state sanctioned and recognized SODOMY! She is also on record in the same paper as dissenting on the INFALLIBLE teaching that Holy Orders is reserved for men alone(1), and therefore, she is not even in full communion with the Catholic Church(2).
Now, you may feel just fine rejecting these teachings. But Bishop Morlino has taken a vow to God to defend them ... and should he permit such error to fester in his diocese, it could cost him is soul. If you don't respect that, even on the natural level, I'm not sure you can respect much of anything. Do you ask him to go to hell for your ideology? Or do we not believe in that anymore either?
(1) DOCTRINAL COMMENTARY ON THE CONCLUDING FORMULA OF THE PROFESSIO FIDEI (11.4)
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM
(2) DOCTRINAL COMMENTARY ON THE CONCLUDING FORMULA OF THE PROFESSIO FIDEI (6)
Wow Anonymous can you not
Wow Anonymous can you not help but spill your vitriolic misogyny? I am having trouble seeing anything from Christ in your statements.
Wow is right. Jesus Christ
Wow is right. Jesus Christ is all over in that statement for Jesus Christ is the Truth.
Interesting how when the truth can't be contested, the only response left is to divert the issue to something else ... the "way" it was said: "vitriolic."
I presume you concede my original points then ... which are, of course, rock solid.
God Bless you.
Yes, it was good that Bishop
Yes, it was good that Bishop Morlino went to listen to the people of St. Thomas Parish--and their feelings about Ruth Kolpack. However, no matter how much Ruth has done for the parish, and no matter how much these folks have benefitted by her presence as a pastoral assiociate----the Bishop is listening to other voices. He listened to another(others) voices---small in number---grumbling that their 'orthodoxy' (whatever that is) was being 'insulted'.
We have seen this happen all over the United States---all over the world---small groups---reactionaries----getting the ear of the Vatican, and Ordinaries of Arch/dioceses everywhere. These 'tails' wag the 'dog'. Educated, hard-working people in the church are being pushed out---while these "let us return to yesteryear" folks are trying to go back to a world that no longer exists.
I'm happy that Ruth had the support of the people that she has so long served and who really knew her, her work, and her concern. And the people (person) who sent the anonymous letters to the Bishop complaining about Ruth---will they step up and take over all (some?) of the work that Ruth did? Don't hold your breath.
It was warm-hearted of Bishop
It was warm-hearted of Bishop Morlino to listen to Ruth Kolpack and the people of Beloit Parish.
The parishioners love Ruth very much. And Ruth herself is very sweet. She doesn't appear at all like a typical Church-loathing dissident.
The bishop was clearly moved by the heartfelt testimonies. I suspect that he is very tempted to reinstate her.
But there are some very difficult facts to overcome. As recently as this week, she was quoted again in a local paper, advocating womenpriests and homosexual unions.
And whether she asked for this baggage or not, she has affiliation with publicly dissident group CALL TO ACTION, and of course the support of National Catholic Reporter.
I don't see how the Bishop can reverse his decision, even if he wants to. These external factors are too difficult. I'm sure Bishop Morlino didn't WANT to fire her in the first place. Nobody does. Sometimes a leader just has to do the difficult thing.
External Forces mentioned by
External Forces mentioned by the Bishop and confirmed by"Anonymous":
Thank you for revealing "These external factors" are too difficult
1. advocating womenpriests and homosexual unions
2. she has affiliation with publicly dissident group CALL TO ACTION,
3. the support of National Catholic Reporter
************************************************************************
Excellent basis for SUING the Bishop.
Still the mystery:why was
Still the mystery:why was Ruth Kolpack fired?
No mystery, she was fired
No mystery, she was fired because she was a woman. If she had been male, a member of the clergy, this entire issue would never have surfaced.
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