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PDF versionLiturgist: Pope aims to 'propose' practices
Mar. 03, 2010
Msgr. Guido Marini at the Vatican (CNS/Catholic Press/Alessia Giuliani)
ROME -- For the better part of five years, plenty of experts on Catholic liturgy have been waiting for the “real” agenda of Pope Benedict XVI, known as a traditionalist on matters of worship, to emerge from beneath a façade of patience seemingly built on dropping hints rather than imposing sweeping new rules.
Now, however, the pope’s own liturgist insists that the patient façade is actually the agenda.
One month ago, that papal liturgist, Msgr. Guido Marini, sparked wide debate with his public call for a “reform of the reform,” suggesting to some a desire to roll back the clock on liturgical reforms associated with the Second Vatican Council (1962-65). However, Marini insists that no such rollback is underway, and no dramatic new rules are in the works.
When Benedict employs more traditional touches in his own liturgies, such as giving Communion on the tongue, those amount to “proposals,” Marini said, intended to gradually influence the church’s liturgical culture, and are not harbingers of forthcoming papal edicts.
“I don’t believe that the liturgy of the church needs any radical changes or distortions,” Marini said, saying he “fully” agrees with a comment from then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, that Catholic liturgy needs a “period of stability” after the wave of dramatic, and at times contentious, reforms that flowed from Vatican II.
Marini, the master of papal liturgical celebrations, spoke in an exclusive interview with NCR Feb. 9 in his Vatican office. (Read more of the interview here: Q & A with Msgr. Guido Marini, papal liturgist.)
When Marini addressed a Jan. 6 conference in Rome sponsored by the Australian Confraternity of Catholic Clergy and the U.S.-based Confraternity of Catholic Clergy, he seemed to call into question at least some of the reforms from Vatican II, such as active participation by laity in the liturgy and greater “inculturation,” meaning adjusting the church’s rites to reflect local cultures.
In his conversation with NCR, however, Marini said that undoing those reforms is not what he had in mind. Marini conceded that the liturgical winds are blowing in a traditional direction, but said any change should happen slowly and without new upheaval.
“I believe it’s a matter of consolidating what we already have, in a more authentic way, according to the true mind of the church,” Marini said. He said that’s what Benedict has in mind when he talks about “development in continuity.”
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Marini, 44, has served as Benedict’s master of liturgical celebrations since October 2007. In that role, he is the chief organizer of the pope’s own celebrations; liturgical policy for the wider church is set by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, presently headed by Spanish Cardinal Antonio Cañizares.
Trying to turn back the clock on Vatican II “wouldn’t make any sense, because it’s not how the life of the church works,” Marini said. New developments, he said, should happen “organically,” and “the best way, the most correct way ... is certainly not to reject the reforms that were determined by the Second Vatican Council.”
In his Jan. 6 speech, Marini also pointed to certain specific practices that have been adopted in Benedict’s own liturgical celebrations. They included placing a cross on the altar during Mass, so that both priest and people are oriented toward God rather than one another, and the practice of administering Communion to people on the tongue while kneeling rather than taking it in the hand while standing.
Marini told NCR, however, that Benedict’s style is to “propose” these practices so that they may be slowly “welcomed” into the life of the church, rather than imposing them by authority.
“It’s the style of the current pope to move forward not by imposing things, but proposing them. The idea is that, slowly, all this may be welcomed, considering the true significance that certain decisions and certain orientations may have,” Marini said.
Marini did not rule out, however, that such practices might be made binding at some future point.
“Whether sometime down the line, in the future, what the pope is presenting should become more of a disciplinary norm [for the whole church], we don’t know and can’t say,” he said.
Marini said much the same spirit of preferring gradual evolution to dramatic exercises of authority applies to Benedict’s decision in 2007 to authorize wider celebration of the older Latin Mass, the so-called Tridentine rite. No one is compelled, he said, to worship according to that rite, but rather both now have “full legitimacy.”
“What’s important now is that both forms of the Roman rite look upon one another with great serenity,” he said, “realizing that both belong to the life of the church and that neither is the only true, authentic expression.”
In general, Marini suggested, anyone expecting a dramatic liturgical overhaul from Benedict is likely to be disappointed.
“The pope has a vision based on great faith in the life of the church,” he said. “The church has its own sense of time, its own rhythms. … Sometimes things can’t just be imposed. They have to slowly enter into the way of thinking of the church, its way of feeling, its climate.
“Within that,” Marini said, “maybe one can eventually arrive at providing a more precise disciplinary norm, but maybe first you have to shape a consensus.”
[John L. Allen Jr. is NCR senior correspondent. His e-mail address is jallen@ncronline.org.]
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All this week, NCRonline.org focuses on liturgy. Every day a new article and lots of discussion.
Monday: Battle lines in the liturgy wars
Tuesday: The new spin on Vatican II
Wednesday: Pope aims to 'propose' practices, says liturgist
Thursday: Our brains are wired for liturgy
Friday: The hermeneutic of dysfunction, an NCR editorial
But let's not forget that the
But let's not forget that the post-Counciliar reforms were emphatically inorganic and based on a whole range of subjective judgements of "professional" liturgists. The Pope is to be admired for not only his pragmatism, but his patience.
Are you trying to say that
Are you trying to say that the liturgical changes approved by Pope Paul VI were somehow illicit? I hardly think there are any bogeymen "professional liturgists" to blame. This is propaganda of the traditionalist rightwing in the church. On which, Msgr. Guido Marini is the perfect Goebbels.
Why do we have to listen to
Why do we have to listen to this NEW UPSTART, marini?????? It seems that FUNDAMENTALISTS like this fellow are INDOCTRINATING or trying to INDOCTRINATE the PEOPLE of the Kingdom of God.If what is being suggested is NOT ROLLING BACK VATICAN 2, what else can this PROCESS be called?
The Tsunami of VATICAN 2 started in the '60s and nothing CAN STOP IT!!!!!Not even Marini and Benedict 16.
SammyTassie
3/3/10
Sammy; Exactly which "reforms
Sammy;
Exactly which "reforms of Vatican II" is he suggesting be changed? Most of what he is suggesting (ad orientem, communion on the tongue-kneeling, Ordinary of Mass in Latin, use of Gregorian Chant) are all very specifically proposed,/em> in the documents of Vatican II. I know this is a point of argument for many, but the fact remains that the implementation of these particular liturgical practices would be nothing more than insisting on following the directives of the council.
I think you might be a little off the mark about having to listen to people like Marini, Pope Benedict, etc... while you aren't "obligated" to do so, neither are you "obligated" to remain within the Catholic Church. For the sake of your eternal soul, I would pray that you do, but know that requires humility and obedience.
More of the Church of Rome's
More of the Church of Rome's scare tactics, "for the sake of your eternal soul". LOL LOL LOL You do not speak for God and neither does the pope. He and He alone will decide the state of anyone's soul.
When it comes to "humility" and "obedience", the Church autocrats have shown damned little of the former and far too much of the latter.
The wolf in sheep's clothing:
The wolf in sheep's clothing: "Marini did not rule out, however, that such practices might be made binding at some future point".
The Emperor has no clothes on.
Indeed, Emperor Benedict is
Indeed, Emperor Benedict is naked as can be.
The fruits of such subversive
The fruits of such subversive practices is division and confusion. It speaks to a particularly impoverished understanding of the role of liturgy and ritual in faith development. Such desparate images of God, Church, Eucharist, liturgy...are mutually exclusive and incompatible. While the Eucharist is to be a source of unity, this invites separation in an insidious and subversive way, tied up in a nice bow of tolerance and patience. It is a trojan horse waiting to make faith and Church more irrelevant in the lives of our parishioners.
this is about as subtle a
this is about as subtle a "proposal" as sewing on stars of David...
and while this is a totally DISproportionate analogy, the sense of "what next" looms heavy.
If we go back to mandated
If we go back to mandated communion on the tongue, I will sadly no longer be able to participate fully in the liturgy...i.e., I will not be receiving communion. Sticking my tongue out is a strange way to show respect & welcome to God...culturally, we welcome people by embracing them, by shaking hands, by grasping hands...the one time I stuck my tongue out at someone, I spent the following hour sitting in the corner, alone.
As a communion minister, open mouths with tongues thrust forth is certainly not a lovely site, either...besides, the smearing of saliva from one person to another is quite unsanitary. I would think we might also want to look at those cute little wine (juice?) cups that are used at several other denominations for communion...if they are all filled from one decanter, as we do with our chalices & communion cups, we are losing none of the "communion one with all", but we are losing a whole lot of germs.
Maybe it's that revolting feeling I get when forced to eat at one of those "serve yourself anything & everything" buffet type restaurants which is responsible for this germ avoidance behavior...but I think many others have the same revulsion of a communion minister's fingers passing germs on from person to person.
It's not a lack of faith in God's everlasting goodness, it's a God given knowledge of how disease is transmitted.
I don't believe our liturgy should have a revulsive component...
Glad I'm not the only
Glad I'm not the only germophobe. Having taken basic Microbiology in college I simply can't bring myself to take from the chalice (the ministers keeping wiping with the same dirty cloth!)as it is a breeding ground. The times I took the eucharist on my tongue due to carrying a baby I felt obscene sticking my tongue out at someone. This seems to then diminish the sacredness of the whole moment. Let's not be forced back into this practice.
If the practice of receiving
If the practice of receiving communion on the tongue is sufficient to dissuade you from going to it then I think you're in the wrong job Mrs - and probably the wrong Church too.
AMEN!
AMEN!
perhaps our love of the
perhaps our love of the Eucharist and our willingness to look "stupid" with our tounge's hanging out for the God who hung on a cross naked should overcome or germophobia and lead us to giving the Eucharist the respect Jesus deserves
The Church screwed up big
The Church screwed up big time by failing to give guidelines for a way to receive communion standing which is both respectful and yet inspires the communicant to receive the eucharist with great devotion.
With both hands crossed before the chest approach the priest. Then make a profound body bow. Then extending the right palm slowly take the host to one's mouth while at the same time slightly bowing the head. This shouldn't be done in a rushed fashion. Then step aside and make a profound body bow before the minister of the communion chalice. The chalice should be held by the minister with a corporal under the chin of each communicant when putting the chalice to the lips. DO NOT HAND THE CHALICE TO EACH COMMUNICANT. THE DANGER OF SPILLAGE IS FAR TOO GREAT.
If communion is distributed by intinction, simply opening one's mouth very wide and keeping the tongue in and down in your mouth you form a sort of throne to receive the moistened host (the Byzantine manner). There is no reason for you to have to stick out your tongue.
I don't believe him.
I don't believe him. "Shaping a concensus" Why doesn't he say what he means? What the Pope does in liturgical services - that's what will eventually be the rule.
Sally, This pope is getting a
Sally, This pope is getting a lot of flack from bishops. Right now with the sexual abuse crisis Benedict isn't about to impose anything on anyone. He lost his chance. Once the old boy is gone, his Motu Proprio permitting the Tridentine Mass will go with him.
None of this should be
None of this should be surprising to people who read Cardinal Ratzinger's work. As long as there are peoples who lived through one liturgical upheaval, I doubt that the Holy Father intends to make them live through another one, and that probably means that no "disciplinary norm" will be coming during his pontificate. In the meantime, however, I will be interested in seeing whether anything he throws will stick.
Please excuse me if I voice
Please excuse me if I voice an impression here: Marini is a great 'Spin' master. Not at all unlike what we hear from D.C.
"Yes, we'll porpose" but then call to heal all the Cardinals to muster 'pseudo-support'. Then what do we find happening: the Bishops' Conferences say: "Oh YES, this is the will of the Vatican and IMPOSE." Sound anything like the resent vote on the new (OLD) translations ?
And where do the People of God fit into this equation? That's it, we don't.
I am afraid I have to agree
I am afraid I have to agree with the sentiments of a few previous commentators: John Allen's pieces have become a litany of various Vatican power people spinning their agenda of centralized control in the cozy, embedded interviews of a tepid critique. I actually don't say it with malice: I think when you spend that much time in a world, we forget to challenge the premise upon which things are based (and said), and it makes sense within that world. Things that I took with a grain of salt when I worked in leadership in the Church now seem to border on the edge of nonsense the longer I have been away from that circle.
At the heart of my critique is this attributing equal weight to everything: they say this, and the others say this, and it is framed within a pendulum of left and right wings, with the "ideal" being in the middle. But so much of what passes for liturgical scholarship from Rome would not pass the muster of an eight grade critique. And John, the proposed English translation of the GIRM and Sacramentary are not examples of "dropping hints"; rather, they are clear breaks from scholarly principles of translation that everyday people understand, and an imposition of a radically priest-centred and exclusive theology. Please, step away from Rome for a time so you can re-orient yourself and do your homework.
If, according to Marini, the
If, according to Marini, the church liturgy needs a "period of stability", why all the changes?
I mean, to "Propose" "older" practices, does more to fragment the worshiping community and confuse them. WOW, now I have TWO choices, which one do I attend?
I just don't get it. And I don't by his rationale, a proposal rarely comes without a comittment to something later.
Mom, The "stability" is
Mom, The "stability" is another way of saying the pope is caving in to the immense pressure from reactionaries and the SSPX people who want to completely reverse the Second Vatican Council. I think Benedict will be afraid right now to upset too many apple carts by going that far, but he will try to placate the traditionalists.
Mass facing the altar will be encouraged, but I doubt whether facing the people will be outlawed. Latin will come back for portions of the Canon and the other eucharistic prayers (which won't be used in the TLM). Some choice in what parts of the Roman Canon and other EPs are said silently.
Perhaps the Words of Institution and the final doxology will be sung or said, but restricted to Latin in both the TLM and the Novus Ordo.
Communion probably kneeling, in the mouth, and without giving the Precious Blood directly from the chalice. A good chance of retaining intinction only.
Old Testament readings before the epistle to be retained ,and the Gradual as found in the 1962 rite for both the Novus Ordo and TLM, or the full psalm Gradual can be used in both forms. We would go back to the one year cycle of readings and the 1962 liturgical calendar with feasts instituted since 1962 added to it.
All readings in either Latin or vernacular facing the people from the ambo(s).
The Lord's Prayer said by the priest alone. The kiss of peace placed before the offertory.
Prayers at the foot of the altar from the TLM replacing the penitential rite of the Novus Ordo mass . The offertory procession and the prayers of the faithful would follow a fairly fixed form performed by cantor, deacon, or priest only. The prayers would resemble a litany and might be taken from early Church sources.
No more husband and wife teams with the ciborium and cruets. The offertory procession will largely involve the clergy and the people together in one large procession, or it can be left out altogether. The offertory procession will be something more closely resembling the Byzantine liturgy, but without the elaborate preparation rituals at a side altar.
The celebrant's chair may go too and with it the idea of a priest as "Presider". All the chitchat from the chair at the start of Mass goes too, but the choice of scripture-based greetings of the celebrant will be enlarged and it will be permitted in the 1962 Mass as well.
In summary, I'd say the pope will make concessions to both modernists and traditionalists and, as usual, satisfy neither side. But, hey, Rome has spoken, right?
It is with great sadness that
It is with great sadness that that I read that the Pope practices "placing a cross on the altar during Mass, so that both priest and people are oriented toward God rather than one another." That dualistic thinking only serves to keep us further away from the great mystery that awaits our embrace. We need liturgical practices that deepen our understanding that we are oriented toward God, each other and the whole of the Universe.
What's more, Christ's
What's more, Christ's presence in the community is a reality we celebrate together at mass. The crucifix has its place for our reverence; but not on the table of our "family meal."
JR
This is hilarious.!! In other
This is hilarious.!! In other words, the pope will keep dropping "tidbits" for us to get used to...and then come down with an ultimatum when we "get used to it"
Take the notion of going back to a kneeling rail seperating the sanctuary from the people and having everyone come and kneel while the priest "feeds" us the hosts and probably does away with drinking from the chalice. Is this reverence or an attempt to make us feel like "children" again.
Can you picture Christ telling the Apostles to get down on their knees while He feeds them the bread and holds the cup while they drink from it.?
If Benedict thinks a smaller, more docile and obedient laity and clergy is the
ideal, then he is well on the way to achieving such. 1.2 billion Catholics worldwide??? Give me a break!!
"They included placing a
"They included placing a cross on the altar during Mass, so that both priest and people are oriented toward God rather than one another, and the practice of administering Communion to people on the tongue while kneeling rather than taking it in the hand while standing."
What they are oriented towards is a cross and a gate of candlesticks that cuts the priest, the sacred, off from the profane, the people, so he can focus on God. What an error in thinking! It is exactly in the Other, the face of the people, that we powerfully encounter God, in the people of God. To suggest that being oriented towards another human being is not orientation to God is unfortunate.
The problem is that, often,
The problem is that, often, we have become so focused on one another that we forget God. The priest assumes the role of "talk show host" at Mass, introducing readings, etc. The people focus on the priest and on each other to the detriment of God. All, priest and people alike, are called to focus their attention at Mass on the Lord. It is He we come to worship, He we come to adore, He we hear when the Scripture is proclaimed, and His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity we receive in the great gift of Holy Communion. It is the Lord we worship and the Lord Who is the focus of all we do. That is the point the Holy Father is trying to remind us of when he places a crucifix in the center of the Altar. It reminds us of Christ and reminds him as well.
Ratzinger and Marini - now
Ratzinger and Marini - now there's a team I can live with, they seem to have a plan for the church and the future but based on God's time, not our own. Good job of reporting and explaining.
Guido claims it's all an
Guido claims it's all an "organic" development. Organic in the sense that he and B16 are trying to cut the heart out of Vatican II.
Please, read the documents of
Please, read the documents of Vatican II (probably for the first time) and then come back here and cite just one thing Pope Benedict has done to "rip the heart out of it."
Yes, in fact there is no such
Yes, in fact there is no such thing as an "organic" liturgy. They've all been written by committees and men with A PLAN. No natural outgrowth respectful of culture or tradition in any of the western or eastern liturgies.
Hyper Bennybackers and other reactionaries want to take us back to the good old days of Pope Gregory the Great and Pope Pius V. They think the liturgy grew out of the ground like mushrooms, and the Novus Ordo Mass of Paul VI was written by Calvin and Luther with the help of their "liberal, socialist" allies at NCR.
The idea that the Pope
The idea that the Pope "proposes" gradual changes which may in the future become normative is a far cry from the old days of clerical imposition, and should be welcomed. Perhaps Parish Priests (aka "pastors") may take a hint from this, and propose innovations to their pastoral councils instead of just declaring that such and such a change is necessary and must be implemented immediately. Otherwise where would the respect for his flock be seen? Undue clericalism would seem to die a long death, but opposite attitudes have to be learnt.
"When the power of Love
"When the power of Love replaces the love of Power, the world will know peace". J. Hendrix And the Church, too, might eventually know peace.
it's good to know that the
it's good to know that the Church is not taking the advice of a man who died of an overdose, but rather taking advice from a Man who died on a cross
Who gets included in the
Who gets included in the "true mind of the church?" I bet it isn't me or you.
Also, I think this kind of action is generally known as passive aggressive, not proposing. And the word "binding" seems a tad restrictive even if it is couched in terms of "the future"
Well done Benedict! Well done
Well done Benedict! Well done Marini! The liturgical suggestions of the Holy Father really are an expression of the desire for the "reform of the reform" which has been in debate for almost 50 years. These changes are not dramatic -but they are rich in their significance. So many Catholics have shared with their bishops the hope for a deeper sense of the sacred within the liturgy of the Word and Eucharist. The Mass in St. Peter's demonstrates the sense of sacred perfectly while maitaining a wonderful balance of recognition of the community presence. It is possible to bring these updates into the local Church with great benefit and little upset. Thank you Rome!
The Mass/Liturgy at St.
The Mass/Liturgy at St. Peter's rarely follows the liturgical guidelines set forth in the document. That is one place where there are MANY abuses of the liturgy!
Pomp and Circumstance do not equal sacred!
The liturgical choreographers
The liturgical choreographers in charge of the papal ceremonies mistake theatrics and grand opera for liturgy. These reactionaries, along with the SSPX, are pushing Benedict to impose the 1962 Missal on to the entire Church. They think the same way.
B16 is a BIG step backwards.
B16 is a BIG step backwards. In the time of an aging population he wants us to kneel. What is the matter with him? In my view he has not changed in the least since he was the rat with the zinger. He is still zinging us and wanting to promote himself and other clerics into Jesus' position. Bowing, kneeling and scraping to the almighty clerics who, if they were not abusing others, were covering up and spending money to pay off the victims or like the man B16 wants to make into a saint JPII, rewarding those who covered up like Law(less). What a bunch of losers! The irony of such men wanting to dictate to us about reverence is no doubt lost on those who live a life where reality rarely intrudes. The salvation of the Church is not the clerical class but the ordinary people who live the Gospel despite all of the impediments put in their way!
Taking a big step backward is
Taking a big step backward is the right thing to do if we're walking in the wrong direction.
A big step backward? I'd
A big step backward? I'd rather the Church stepped into adopting the Byzantine liturgy to replace the liturgical wars of the west. We're adopting icons. Why not the entire liturgy?
Msgnr Marini says Latin rite
Msgnr Marini says Latin rite and other modern language are both legitimate, then with the third newest roman missal let all three remain . What he calls "Shaping a consensus " is still forcing on us if BXVI keeps on imposing liturgies and practices "he" wants. None of this comes from the bible. No latin, latinized liturgies comes from the bible, no treating the priest like a lord either. None of this stuff from BXVI is what God dictates or wants. The current mass is legitimate.
The message is subtle,
The message is subtle, gentle: propose through small steps. Shape the mind of the Church organically. One communicant at a time. One soul at a time.
I found this interview hopeful and cautious, always a two edge sword. Yes, let's shape the consensus carefully with acts that are true, meaningful, and reflect the mind of the Church. Let's give us all the freedom to offer small acts of meaning and not just the pope's subtle change of practice. God loves me too. The kingdom of God is in me too.
Yet, why wasn't the formation of the new missal conducted in the same way? Why was it done in secret to start and then rejecting the shaping consensus of so many others? Let the new missal be "proposed", i.e. small steps over time and determined whether it reflects the "true mind of the church" by the shaping consensus of the people who respond to it and who pray it.
Indeed, Jesus worked one soul at a time. And we're still not there yet where the world is converted. The church moves at its own pace in its own time. Let it do so.
Liturgy is the pinnacle of
Liturgy is the pinnacle of our week together as Catholics. Does Marini mean that
"the church has its own sense of time, is own rhythms.....etc."and Sexual abuse is part of the climate of the Church now? Who is responsible for maintaining celibacy as above and beyond the liturgical action of the Body of Christ?
This is just more double
This is just more double talk. They are trying to change things BACK to the "good ol' days" no matter how they try to spin it.
"placing the cross on the
"placing the cross on the altar so that the priest and people are oriented toward God instead of one another" tells me that worshiping a "statue/symbol" is more important than finding God in one another. Isn't that idol worship? Regarding kneeling and receiving the Eucharist on the tongue that appears to be placing us lowly laity in a subservient position and being fed like babies. Sorry, but I do not buy it. I am an adult with an adult spirituality and that which is in my heart is more important that outward signs of subservience.
WE ARE NOT WORSHIPING THE
WE ARE NOT WORSHIPING THE ALTAR CROSS BUT BEING MORE GOD ORIENTED PUTTING OUR MINDS ON GOD. NOT PEOPLE ORIENTED . WE DO NOT ATTEND MASS TO WORSHIP PEOPLE BUT GOD. MANY PRACTICES NOT INDORSED BY THE CHURCH LIKE HOLDING HANDS FOR THE OUR FATHER, DIRECTS OUR MINDS AWAY FROM GOD AND ON TO US. KNEELING FOR HOLY COMMUNION SHOW THE UPMOST RESPECT FOR GOD. SEEMS TO ME YOU SHOULD JOIN A EVANGELICAL CHURCH. PROPOSED CHANGES IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ARE NOT UP FOR DEBATE.
This message makes me think
This message makes me think of the expression "the wolf in sheep's clothing" or the devil tempting Jesus in the desert. Do not be deceived. This is an attempt to undo any forward movement that may diminish or threaten the ultimate power of the Vatican. This is not Jesus' message. His message was meant to bring the people to God, not to extend the power of tyrants and dictators.
Can we then ask that the new
Can we then ask that the new English translations of the texts of the Eucharist be merely 'proposed' rather than imposed?
If the USCCBishops had
If the USCCBishops had adopted several English translations of the Mass available in 1969,instead of turning the whole process over to ICEL, the liturgical wars might well have been avoided.
What Rome approved in 1973 was shocking and the new missal isn't much of an improvement. Pope Paul VI caved into too many extremists on both ends of the spectrum. In the end he failed to adequately implement the Vatican II changes. Did so half-heartedly and begrudgingly. To NOBODY's satisfaction. Traditionalists or Modernists.
We have a failed liturgical product today which has become the foundation for disunity, animosity, and, in some cases, hatred because of it.
TO CLAIM THE PREEMINENCE OF
TO CLAIM THE PREEMINENCE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS NOT IN ANY WAY ARROGANCE, BUT OBEDIENCE TO THE
COMMAND OF CHRIST. THE TRUE RELIGION IS ONE HE FOUNDED - THE HOLY, CATHOLIC RELIGION. ALL OTHER RELIGIONS
HAVE A HUMAN ORIGIN AND ARE NOT FOUNDED ON TRUTH.
THIS PERENIAL TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS TODAY DENIED BY THE MODERNIST HERETICS WHO HAVE
TAKEN CONTROL OF THE VATICAN AND THE TEACHING OFFICES OF THE CHURCH ALL OVER THE WORLD. THE FALSE
RELIGIONS ARE NOW DEEMED TO HAVE THEIR ORIGIN FROM GOD, AND ALL RELIGIONS HAVE THE SAME ORIGIN. ONE
CAN BE SAVED BY THE FOLLOWING THE PATH ONE CHOOSES, NOT BY FOLLOWING THE PATH COMMANDED BY GOD THAT WE
SHOULD FOLLOW. ALL ARE NOW TERMED "BELIVERS" MEN AND WOMEN OF FAITH, NO MATTER WHAT RELIGION THEY
PROFESS.
THE GOSPEL IS NO LONGER PREACHED TO THE JEWS, AND WHERE IT IS PREACHED THERE IS "DIALOGUE" AND THE MUTUAL
RESPECT AND APPRECIATION AMONG RELIGIONS. MOST PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CATHOLIC TODAY HAVE
BEEN SWEPT ALONG BY THE TIDE OF THE MODERENIST HERSEY, AND ARE NO LONGER TRULY CATHOLIC. IN FACT, THEY
HAVE BEEN SWEPT RIGHT OUT OF THE CHURCH UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF THE HIERARCHY THEMSELVES, GREAT
NUMBERS OF WHOM HAVE FALLEN INTO APOSTASY. THEY ARE LIKE THOSE SPOKEN BY ST.PAUL " HAVING A RESEMBLANCE INDEED OF PIETY, BUT DISOWNING ITS POWER". (2TIM.3.5). MILLIONS OF SOULS ARE BEING LOST BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HEAR THE TRUTH. THEY ARE NOT WARNED ABOUT THE HORROR OF SIN AND THE CERTAINTY OF ETERNAL HELL FIRE FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT REPENT.
CLERGY, AT WHATEVER LEVEL, WHO ARE MORALLY CORRUPT AND DISHONEST, NO LONGER INTERESTED IN PRESERVING
THE TRUE CATHOLIC FAITH. THEY HAVE BUILT A CHURCH AROUND THEM, A PROTECTIVE CHURCH WHICH TOLERATES THEIR
SINS, AND HAS CREATED A NEW LITURGY AND A NEW THEOLOGY WHICH ALLOW THEM TO CONTINUE IN THEIR STATE OF
MORAL DEPRAVITY. CATHOLICS WHO ARE THEMSELVES MORALLY CORRUT ARE HAPPY WITH THE NEW SECULAR CHURCH.
THEY CAN NOW BELIEVE THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO COMMIT A MORTEL SIN, AND THAT NO ONE GOES TO HELL.
Did anyone ever tell you that
Did anyone ever tell you that typing in all caps is the text equivalent of screaming?
MUM: I will pray for you. It
MUM: I will pray for you. It must be terrible to be living in a world of confusion thinking you're in the realm of certitude. You must one of the very few Roman Catholics who don't understand that Jesus didn't invent this organization. The institution as it has evolved didn't come to be until the 4th century when Constantine made the Jewish sect of the followers of Jesus to be "legal", thus Romanizing Christianity into an institution (not "converting Rome" to Catholicism) including a book of rules and the formation of a Roman hierarchical structure -- not apostolic. Indeed, Constantine was not baptised, if at all, until the last days of his life. So, MUM, recognize that the church you think is directly from God, is, in fact directly from a human, emperor of Rome, not Jesus, nor from any of the apostles, including Paul. I am sure Jesus wept in heaven when he saw this happening.
You seem to have invented your own religion which I am reasonably sure none of the apostles would be eligible for membership. I trust it works for you. I know Jesus abandons no one even if the Roman Catholic church seems to.
Aldus
I regret to comment these
I regret to comment these statements of Msgr.Guido Mariny. In my openion this have never been published. It adds to the crises of lack of transperency on great problems facing the Cathlic Church, inclusive the Holly See. It is disrectpectful to the intellegence of catholics whatever their status.It lacks diplomacy and worse. The Catholic Church true to her Master shoulb be the champion of transparency and truth: " Truth will make you free." A Churc offficial playing with words, as regards a Holy See Document is no compliment to the Congrgation of Divine worship and the discipline of the Sacraments. Joseph Borg Micallef (fr.), Malta
Joe (Benedict) Ratzinger is
Joe (Benedict) Ratzinger is the worst thing to happen to our Catholic Church in the past one thousand years and we should not be surprised of the damage he is doing to the People of God by enacting policies that belong to another age and time. His right wing thinking and his policies regarding women (ordination) homosexual people (ignorant and homophobic), human sexuality and optional celibacy for priests and bishops, and the free and liberal exchange of theological thought, will only do great harm to the Church and the next bishops of Rome will have to undue the great damage that Ratzinger is responsible for. It's all bad. He was never a good candidate to lead the Church and it is only because his predecessor appointed primarily right wing reactionaries as bishops, that we are in the present state of corruption and decay of the Latin Rite Church and that we have a man who was once a Hitler Youth and is now the Bishop of Rome. Marini is not to be trusted at all. He is cut from the same cloth as Ratzinger.
Yes, he was not a good
Yes, he was not a good candidate he was a great candidate ! Thank God for sending us a holy pope who is doing his best to stop the rot.
"Benedict’s style is to
"Benedict’s style is to “propose” these practices so that they may be slowly “welcomed” into the life of the church, rather than imposing them by authority."
Believe that and I have a nice little bridge in San Francisco that I'll sell you very cheaply.
I wish Msgr. Marini's
I wish Msgr. Marini's assertions in this article were credible. The "proposals" seem to me to hearken back to a romantic view of liturgy. 1)The use of "Roman" vestments simply looks foolish, as does the return to "rochet" lace-like style surplices by the Pope and others. 2) The choice of music is not a return to the Gregorian Chant of the Novus Ordo, but to "popular" chant pieces (e.g. "Salve Mater Misericordiae" as the opening hymn of the Mass on the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God). 3) The use of an "ancient" Litany of the Saints as an Opening Hymn for the Mass to open the Synod for Africa is something cooked up, not something traditional. 4) The silliness of a Mass "ad orientem" in the Sistine Chapel is strange, given the fact that every time the Pope celebrates in St. Peter's, he celebrates "ad orientem" just as Pius XII and John XXIII did for their Coronation (in St. Peter's, the Popwe is "ad orientem" when he is facing the doors). 5)If the Pope wants to change something, let him make the changes and face his critics. Turning the clock back to what one thinks was the past rather than taking a stricter interpretation of the Liturgy as it is, does not seem to me to be the way to move people to a better standard of celebration.
God Bless the work of Pope
God Bless the work of Pope Benedict XVI and the Catholic Church.
What is the reason for all
What is the reason for all these possible changes? An absence of reverence for the Eucharist by the faithful or just a personal view pressurised by the anti Vatican II movement? What do the World's Bishops have to say? How can these superficial changes deepen our Faith?
A pope who bends over
A pope who bends over backwards to please the SSPX will do everything in his power to assert their agenda: the 1962 Mass in Latin, end collegiality and return to the 16th century, end ecumenism, anathemas delivered against liberals and socialists.
Make no mistake about it, Benedict's agenda has Pio Nono's "Syllabus of Errors" as it's guiding principle and inspiration.
If you believe what this
If you believe what this Msgr. Marini is handing out, I have a bridge that I would like to sell you.
Oh, oh! It is obviously
Oh, oh! It is obviously slow-down time. That is a thoughtful, wise decision. If all the other was put out there to get possible feedback, it came.
Whether visible or not, a cross could always considered to be over an altar.
Please don't just revise liturgy - with the state of the peoples on the planet, and the planet itself - other things might take precedence.
What if WE just "proposed"
What if WE just "proposed" another COLOGNE DECLARATION?
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/07/14/world/theologians-in-europe-challenge-...
http://search.opinionarchives.com/Summary/Commonweal/V116I4P6-1.htm
How blessed we are to have
How blessed we are to have the Holy Father! Thank you, Mr. Allen, for illuminating the Holy Father's plans for the Sacred Liturgy. His Holiness is blessed to to have young Guido Marini!
Somebody needs to tell the
Somebody needs to tell the people who insist on Communion on the tongue that my fingers often get covered with saliva. It is truly disgusting to see somebody open wide and strings of saliva/drool go from tongue to top of mouth. And I love the "snappers" who manage to catch my fingers and host in one gulp. Really, this is more 'reverent?" Only to a pope who was nevera parish priest.
If you have those problems,
If you have those problems, just leave the distribution of Communion to the priests and deacons like it should be.
Actually, the Holy Father a
Actually, the Holy Father a parish priest (a vicar, or associate) following his ordination and was ordinary of a diocese as well.
And, I am so happy to hear that Holy Communion is all about what is comfortable for the extraordinary minister and about what is not "disgusting" for them. I am so impressed by your compassion for those who "disgust" you. I also admire your devotion to distributing the Body of Christ, which evidently you enjoy only if they receive in the manner you prefer.
I suppose the solution to that is simple. If you find distributing Holy Communion to those who receive on the tongue "disgusting" and dangerous, given the "snappers", why not insist that you distribute only the Precious Blood at Mass? Or, better yet, why don't you stop distributing Holy Communion altogether?
Only three years after John
Only three years after John Paul II was Pope, Joe Ratzinger became head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, or more infamously known as the Holy Office or the place where The Spanish Inquisition took root. Now Ratzinger is Bishop of Rome. Is it any wonder that he is dragging the Church down to the darkest depths of repression and fundamentalism? None of the work Marini is doing should be trusted because we are not going to be told about the deceptive behind the scenes activities of these power hungry prelates. It's better to let the Holy Spirit take care of them. They are not behaving like disciples of Jesus and they never will.
Hi Chris, The Holy Office was
Hi Chris,
The Holy Office was previously the Italian Inquisition, not the Spanish Inquistion.
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