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George questions role of independent Catholic media
Bishop Trautman says Vatican II liturgical norms being violated
Nov. 17, 2009
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Cardinal Francis E. George of Chicago, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, said Nov. 16 that Catholic publications, universities or other organizations that insist on complete independence from their bishops are “sectarian, less than fully Catholic.”
In his presidential address at the opening session of the fall USCCB general assembly in Baltimore, George announced that the bishops “have recently begun discussions on how we might strengthen our relationship to Catholic universities, to media claiming to be a voice in the church, and to organizations that direct various works under Catholic auspices.”
According to NCR sources, those issues were to be the main topic of discussion in a three-hour executive session the afternoon of Nov. 18, when the bishops were slated to meet alone behind closed doors, with all reporters and observers and virtually all USCCB staff excluded.
George placed his comments in the context of the bishops’ role in governance as promoters and guarantors of church unity.
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See also: Bishops mull fighting abortion, gay marriage
See also: David Gibson Ignatius of Antioch on bishops' authority
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"Relations do not speak first of control but of love,” he said. “If there is a loosening of relationship between ourselves and those whom Christ has given us to govern in love, it is for us to reach out and re-establish connections necessary for all to remain in communion.”
After announcing that the bishops have initiated discussions on how to carry that out in relation to Catholic higher education, independent Catholic media and organizations that engage in activities under Catholic auspices, he added:
“Since everyone in Catholic communion is truly interrelated, and the visible nexus of these relations is the bishop, an insistence on complete independence from the bishop renders a person or institution sectarian, less than fully Catholic. The purpose of our reflections, therefore, is to clarify questions of truth or faith and of accountability or community among all those who claim to be part of Catholic communion.”
At a press conference later that afternoon George declined to name specific Catholic media, higher education or other organizations that the bishops might have in mind, but he said that more generally “if any institution, including the media, calls itself Catholic,” it is the moral responsibility of a bishop to assure that it is Catholic.
That offers the bishops “a chance to clarify the relationship” and see if the entity in question is operating within the bonds of Catholic communion, he said.
It’s the moral responsibility of bishops “to keep the faithful gathered around Christ,” he said, so it is their responsibility, when institutions or organizations call themselves Catholic, to sort out what that means in each case.
Archbishop George H. Niederauer of San Francisco, chairman of the USCCB Communications Committee, added, “I think that it’s a much more media-intensive landscape in this country than it was many years ago.” He said he and other bishops now regularly face questions from Catholics who say that different media, all claiming to be Catholic, present different views of what the Catholic teaching is on various subjects.
“That really does challenge us to make sense of it,” he said.
A new twist on the new Roman Missal project
Another surprise element introduced on the opening day of the bishops’ Nov. 16-19 meeting came during initial informational presentation of several supposedly final segments of the new English translation of the Latin Roman Missal.
As the first of the five final segments was introduced, Bishop Donald W. Trautman of Erie, Pa., rose to ask what had ever happened to the translations of the antiphons – which the bishops had discussed in the first draft form a couple of years ago, he said, but which had never come back to them in final draft form for actual debate and vote.
Bishop Arthur J. Serratelli of Paterson, N.J., chairman of the USCCB Committee on the Liturgy, answered that the antiphons did not come back to the bishops for approval because in the meantime the Holy See has taken their translation to itself.
Trautman asked, “How does that square with” the Second Vatican Council’s Constitution on Sacred Liturgy, which plainly says that vernacular translations of the Latin liturgical texts are the responsibility of the local bishops’ conferences.
He cited Paragraph 36.4 of the constitution, which says, “Translations from the Latin text into the mother tongue intended for use in the liturgy must be approved by the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority,” as a conciliar mandate that, in his view, says no Vatican agency can usurp the role of the local bishops’ conference in vetting and approving such liturgical texts.
Serratelli could only reiterate that the Vatican had assumed authority over the English antiphon translations and taken it out of the hands of the English-speaking bishops’ conferences around the world.
George ruled Trautman’s question out of order in the context of the business at hand, which concerned another set of texts, not the antiphons. When Trautman asked when or how his question might be in order, George assured him that room for his question would be made later in the meeting.
Other issues
Among other issues the bishops face during their Baltimore meeting are the church’s involvement in U.S. health care reform, a proposed pastoral letter on marriage, a proposed statement on in vitro fertilization and other issues relating to human procreation and technology, and a revision of Catholic health care directives regarding nutrition and hydration in end-of-life situations.
Plans for a new letter/postcard campaign to promote constructive, humane comprehensive immigration reform was reported.
At a reception following the meeting’s opening session, the Catholic Campaign for Human Development, an agency of the USCCB that receives an annual anti-poverty collection established by the bishops, honored Brigitte Gynther, coordinator of Interfaith Action of Southwest Florida, for her role in supporting and empowering farmworkers in the Coalition of Immokalee Workers. Those workers in Florida tomato fields essentially doubled their annual earnings from $7,500 a year to around $13,000 a year (still well below poverty level) just by demanding one penny more per pound of tomatoes they picked.
Gynther, now 27, got involved in Interfaith Action work after a visit to the Immokalee fields as a University of Notre Dame student. She began mobilizing fellow students to support the farmworkers, and then began mobilizing other faith communities across the country to boycott corporations buying Florida tomatoes in order to force them to begin demanding fairer wages for the workers harvesting the tomatoes that they were buying.
She has also been deeply involved fighting human trafficking and human slavery and played a significant role in development of a recent national movement, the Campaign for Fair Food.
The CCHD annual award -- to a young person exemplifying the campaign’s ideal of service to the poor that involves helping those people lift themselves out of poverty – is called the Cardinal Bernardin New Leadership Award. Named after the late Cardinal Joseph L. Bernardin of Chicago, every year it honors a young Catholic, between the ages of 18 and 30, who exemplifies leadership in fighting poverty and injustice through community-based solutions.
Jerry Filteau is NCR Washington correspondent.
"...Catholic publications,
"...Catholic publications, universities or other organizations that insist on complete independence from their bishops are 'sectarian'...did he miss as they should be. Perhaps if the bishops were of the people, by the people for the people, elected by the people instead of the Vatican, loyal to the Rome hierarchy over the people 'sectarian' would not be an issue. It seems that what the Cardinal assumes is the arrogating of control not 'love'.
IT IS EASY TO FORGET THAT A
IT IS EASY TO FORGET THAT A BASIC TENET OF OUR CATHOLIC FAITH IS OBEDIENCE. CHRIST WAS OBEDIENT TO THE FATHER AND WENT TO THE CROSS FOR US ASA MODEL OF OBEDIENCE. IF YOU DOUBT, READ SOME THE LIVES OF THE SAINTS WHO GIVE GREAT EXAMPLE. READ ST PAUL'S EPISTLES AS EVEN BETTER EXAMPLES. LET GOD LEAD AND PUT SELF ASIDE.
you don't have to yell.
you don't have to yell.
He is yelling because he
He is yelling because he mistakes 'not listening' with 'not hearing'.
NOTHING IN CATHOLIC TEACHING
NOTHING IN CATHOLIC TEACHING REQUIRES OBEDIENCE TO IMMORAL LEADERSHIP. LET GOD LEAD PUT MOLESTERS ASIDE.
Based on your reasoning then
Based on your reasoning then all bishops must be God.
"Obedient to whom". If your
"Obedient to whom". If your query remains 'let God lead' there would be no dispute. Or if you prefer 'where there are three or more gathered in my name, you'll find me in your midst'. Who would you prefer in your midst, Xt or the Catholic hierarchy. Pray that we never lose our independent universities and independent press or else we are all doomed by those who speak of 'love', but accuse, prefer anathema, condemn as heretics, with hold communion...(they)do not listen, unable to respect new learning, disrespect diverse thinking and unless forced by free thinking intellectuals, theologians, unencumbered university posed for enlightened thought, the Church shall forever live in the medieval age.
"There are two types of
"There are two types of obedience: obedience in relation to power and obedience in relation to love. When understood in the first way, obedience means submission or surrender, the sacrifice of one's own intellect and will. According to the second understanding, obedience does not mean submission, but response. Disobedience is not the putting forward of opinions different from those commanded by authority. To do so might well be a duty, not a sin."
Charles Davis on why it was not enough to ignore the church, NCR, February 7, 1992.
Don I believe one should obey
Don
I believe one should obey God, but the fact is that the bishops are not God, even though some of them seem to believe they are.
Also, writing in all caps is impolite.
Steve
Joan of Arc is a good
Joan of Arc is a good example!
don, dude, if you could turn
don, dude, if you could turn down the caps lock and stop swinging that "new, improved" catechism around my head like a copy of Mein Kampf, you might quietly realize in peace that the basic and only tenet of our Faith is Love.
God is Love.
Love thy enemy.
Where's the Love, dude?
Love is freedom.
Read Jesus Christ.
Read the Pope.
love ya, dude
frère charles du désert OSB OBLAT (Congrégation de Subiaco
Yes and abandon "self" to
Yes and abandon "self" to become slavish followers less than human and shout slogans. Where have I seen this elsewhere....?
PLEASE READ ALL of ST PAUL -
PLEASE READ ALL of ST PAUL - NOT just "cherry-pick" what suits your "OBEDIENCE" myth!
Please read the relevant passages below:
St.Paul "EARNED" his own keep by "working" for his board and lodging - not collect money every Sunday during the celebration of the EUCHARIST from his Churches (as many of our AMERICAN CATHOLIC BISHOPS DO!!) to "LIVE IN AN IVORY TOWER" - with no worries whatsoever about
HOUSING, HUNGER or HEALTH INSURANCE,
while living a "CAREFREE" LIFESTYLE (totally unlike their MASTER - JESUS of NAZARETH),
doing all this with "OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY"
Acts 18:1-3 - After this he(Paul) left Athens and went to Corinth.There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. He went to visit them and, because he practiced the same trade, stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers by trade.
Acts 18:24-26 - A Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, an eloquent speaker, arrived in Ephesus. He was an authority on the scriptures. He had been instructed in the Way of the Lord and, with ardent spirit, spoke and taught accurately about Jesus, although he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the Way (of God) 11 more accurately.
1 Corinthians 16:19 - The churches of Asia send you greetings. Aquila and Prisca (Priscilla) together with the church at their house send you many greetings in the Lord.
For more, please see(page 107):
Roman Corinth: An Alternative Model for the Classical City
by Donald Engels
University Of Chicago Press, 1990
ISBN-10: 0226208702; ISBN-13: 978-0226208701
****************************************************************************
God bless,
Moses
God has not called any of us
God has not called any of us to blind obedience and stupidity, nor to handing over our free-will to corruption. Cardinal George shamelessly stated that the bishops would not be held hostage to the crisis (i.e., the euphemism for their own very public sin and malfeasance), … Yet there has been no sincere contrition, manifested in reparation and turning away from sin.
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They voted to exclude themselves from the scrutiny and sanctions of their own “charter” and they continue to protect the guilty within their episcopal brotherhood, even hiding some in the Vatican. They continue to blame others of lesser status, and demand to be treated as princes of the Church, while denying their own culpability, or even worse, attempting to make it of little consequence. They live a double standard. The exploitation and abuse of women and children continues to surface, while hierarchs continue to cover-up sin, pay bribes, manipulate the legal system and attempt to silence victims. It remains a dreadful scandal with ongoing painful consequences.
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These men claim divine authority to teach morality and what it means to be truly Catholic — but they cannot give what they have not got. As it stands, the ham-handed demands of submission and the claim to teaching morality, would be the fruit of a poisoned tree. The clergy of the USCCB know full well what Scripture demands and the Church teaches about those who harbor manifest mortal sin. They have yet to clean their own episcopal house, and had best get about it, if they ever expect to be accepted as credible and trustworthy teachers again. That’s how reconciliation works — there’s no free pass.
.
Shepherds cannot claim to operate in love and the gifts of the Holy Spirit while simultaneously continuing to cling to the ongoing secrecy and sin that soils their office. God’s people are THE Church, and, as Scripture declares, God himself will shepherd them when human shepherds fail to live up to their high calling as Icons of Christ.
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And all of that Excellencies, is what it means to be truly moral and truly Catholic. Our much maligned women religious taught us well about the nature of sin and the path of forgiveness.
Amen!!
Amen!!
Yes, Christ was obedient to
Yes, Christ was obedient to the father. And I will live my life in an effort to imitate that obedience. When I fail, which I certainly do, I look to Christ for forgiveness and move on. I will also imitate Christ and stand up to religious authoity, as he did when I feel it is what the Holy Spirit is calling me to do.
Peace to you, Don.
Put your self aside Don
Put your self aside Don Adams. God is leading the people of God and the Bishops, if they were fully Christian, would follow.
My reading of the Gospels
My reading of the Gospels says that the basic tenet of Jesus' followers is love. If laws are not loving, inclusive, compassionate, I question whether they are of God .... no matter who decrees them.
Yes Christ was obedient and I
Yes Christ was obedient and I try to follow his model. But I also have an informed conscience, and must follow that too.
what a fantastic thread,
what a fantastic thread, thank you all, you restore my faith in the existence of reasonable catholics
yeah, like, does anyone know
yeah, like, does anyone know if I can send in a SECOND contribution to NCR's annual appeal?
Or do they only accept one?
just wondering
frère charles du désert OSB OBLAT (Congrégation de Subiaco
Cardinal George will do
Cardinal George will do "ANYTHING" to get attention in the MEDIA, so as to PROMOTE his BOOK.
Please buy a copy "SOON", if you want him to "SHUT UP" and "DISAPPEAR" soon.
Perhaps it is a requirement
Perhaps it is a requirement for being archbishop of Chicago. Bernardin also said anything to get attention in the media.
Unity is just as essential to
Unity is just as essential to the Christian Community as love. In fact the two are fundamentally related. The idea of independent media, university, or anything else, within the Christian community, makes sense only if it brings about and strengthens unity. “Independence” makes sense only in the context of unity, and unity is conceivable only in the context of diversity. But the underlying texture of the Christian community remains unity (love – unrestricted concern for and solidarity with the other).
Your ecclesiology is fundamentally flawed: the Church is not only your little parish or not even the US Church (as many in the US would like to believe). To have any kind of credibility, you must seek unity not only with Churches outside the US, but with those gone before us, hence the importance of Rome, which you seem to hate so much.. Yes, we understand that the US is a superpower, and that the US Church would like to claim corresponding privileges in the Universal Church … but this is a rather childish way of thinking (not to mention arrogant and un-Christian). If you are not promoting unity, you become the agent of disunity, and you are destroying the Christian community.
Code words for
Code words for “inquisition”…
At a press conference later that afternoon George declined to name specific Catholic media [not under the editorial control of the bishop], …that offers the bishops “a chance to clarify the relationship” and see if the entity in question is operating within the bonds of Catholic communion, he said.
First they came for the women religious; then they came for the homosexual community; then they came for independent Catholic media; …and then …who will they come for next??? It seems that the more radical members of the hierarchy have launched their plan for “constructive schism” as prophetically explained by Frank Cocozzelli.
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Taking-over control of media is always the major strike initiative of dictators and tyrants who seek total domination — it seems that the hierarchs are serving notice with slippery words such as those used for women religious. How totally unlike the scriptural description of genuine good shepherds. How ironic that God’s people, even today, will end up being persecuted by the powers of the institutional Roman Church. But that has been the case throughout Church history. And it was the religious leaders of our incarnate Lord’s day who were the instigators of His suffering and death.
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I’m really not surprised, given the hireling behavior exhibited by USCCB over the past decade, and their failure to clean up the perverse sinful behavior within the clergy — especially the sexual exploitation and abuse of women and children, which continues to be exposed no matter how carefully they try to cover it up or silence the victims. They cannot hide from the eyes of God.
.
Yes, 'by their fruits you will know them'. How very sad for God's people who are THE Church.
"With a knock on the door,
"With a knock on the door, knock on the door, here they come to take one more..." (Phil Oakes)
Yes, and we must all recall
Yes, and we must all recall that wonderful El Paso native, Phil Ochs, too, who claimed to have died in Chicago in 1968 and in Chile with his friend Victor Jara under the torture of Pinochet's verdugos.
Phil Ochs ain't a-marching anymore.
We do we?
Phil Ochs, requiescat in pacem
Deo Gratias
frère charles du désert OSB OBLAT (Congrégation de Subiaco
...and see if the entity in
...and see if the entity in question is operating within the bonds of Catholic communion, he said.
was that a typo, or is bondage the bishops' idea of love in the church?
Trautman ought to know that
Trautman ought to know that the Pope has ultimate authority in the Church. Any translations of texts into the venacular language which are approved by a national bishop's conference still need the ultimate approval of Rome. Also, since the ICEL gave faulty translations, Rome is well within its rights to do the job which the bishop's conferences messed up in the first place!
I don't think you understand
I don't think you understand the authority in the Church.
A General Council also has
A General Council also has ultimate authority in the Church and if the Vatican overrides the prescriptions of a General Council that constitutes an abuse of its authority.
The current translations are flat but not incompetent or defentive; they were improved in 1998 after 13 years work and this was approved by the English speaking bishops world wide. The Vatican dumped those translations and have now imposed a ghastly set of messy new versions based on the false theory of translation propagated by Pinochet bishop Medina Estevez.
Next year there will be havoc when these incompetent translations are implemented, just as happened in South Africa.
The ultimate authority in the
The ultimate authority in the Church resides in the Holy Spirit of Love and of Freedom, with all of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, of love and of freedom.
Otherwise we're just another empty fascist-leaning totalitarian mind-control sect like those SSPX boys.
heading even deeper for the hills, to hear the Word rather than the word games, I remain ever
frère charles du désert OSB OBLAT (Congrégation de Subiaco
I have switched to the French
I have switched to the French language version of Magnificat for the daily readings. Beautiful language and grammatically correct.
It is a disgrace that English speaking Catholics will be forced to use silly, incorrect language to worship. Should we not worship in the best form of a language available and not cling to literal translations of Latin, which cannot be translated into English literally.
I think that the Lord is quite happy to hear us worship in the language of Shakespeare in the best translations available.
Too bad the Pope's first
Too bad the Pope's first language is NOT English! This new translation will be so archaic, that everyone will be confused and totally out of touch with the liturgy. What a way to bring people together, especially our youth. It'll be like having to read The Canterbury tales by Chaucer...........challenging.7
Hey! I never thought I'd be
Hey! I never thought I'd be saying this but with this translation of the new missal I'm ready to go back to Latin. That's what Rome wants anyway. Maybe they will get it after all with this wierd language. Chaucer where are you when we need you.
Liturgical language such as
Liturgical language such as exists in the new Roman Missal has been the norm in the Eastern Catholic Churches for years.
The Ruthenian Metropolia of Pittsburgh approved its new controversial inclusive language translation of the Greek and Church Slavonic last year without any approval from Rome because the Eastern Code of Canon Law says it is a self-governing Church.
http://www.canterburytales.or
http://www.canterburytales.org/canterbury_tales.html
You will find Chaucer on this excellent site, in both the original middle english, and a modern translation. But hie thee thither. Between George's initiative and Benedict's recent discovery of the Internet(as reported elsewhere in the NCR today), many of the Tales will soon be placed on the Index of Forbidden Web-Pages.
You know, as much as I
You know, as much as I disagree with this, I understand it. The church is not a democracy with rights and privileges guaranteed to its citizens. Its a church with a hierarchy that strives to help the faithful remain, well, faithful. The chief question is: how does the church help its people stay focused in the midst of the media maelstrom that is our culture? That is an important question to ask.
The Church is not a
The Church is not a hierarchy.
The Church of Jesus Christ is the living, mystical body of the People of God.
The Church is a community of Love, a Communion of Saints.
The Church requires once more at this time to pass the way of the desert, as in the first centuries, as did Our Holy Father Saint Benedict to save western civilization's soul and self-sufficiency, and sustainability.
come to the desert
frère charles du désert OSB OBLAT (Congrégation de Subiaco)
Charles, please read Vatican
Charles, please read Vatican II (the Council, not McBrien's summary) and you will see that the Church is the people of God hierarchically ordered.
The Church is not a
The Church is not a democrarcy. This day and age it is a totalitarian monarchy. Please don't ever write moral authority and bishops in the same line again. Not until some bishops with courage and integrity speak truth to the faithful. Having lost their moral authority, they have lost all authority. So, quit sending all cap notes telling us that we must adhere to the bishops...this is not Hitlers Germany. This is the 21st century and the bishops better move their heads out of their-----caves.
Oh my gosh! What is next?
Oh my gosh! What is next?
Excellent point from Bp
Excellent point from Bp Trautman. The icy reception from George and Serratelli is in line with their bullying methods all along. How they will groan when they face the rage of the faithful when these dire translations go through. They will end up like Cardinal Napier in South Africa, where the translations were prematurely released. Cardinal Napier basically told the faithful to shut up. This cannot be a "free-for-all" he said. The bishops are bullied by a noisy minority; when they meet the rage of the People of God they won't know what hit them. Of course that rage may take the form of the quiet patter of departing feet...
Must it always be total
Must it always be total control by the Church or the bishops over everything within the geographical boundaries of a diocese? Where is there room for free, conscientious thought and action in the Church? Has the Vatican II promotion of laity action been fully foreclosed by the constant grab for control over every Catholic thought by the bishops,and is this another step to bury and forget about Vatican II? Nihil Obstat was eliminated from use, so is it the plan for Cardinal George to reinstate it? Sounds like the bishops want to direct the editorial content of print media, as the Vatican did when it removed the editor of America, which used to be an independent, scholarly periodical? When will the bishops return to the spirit and letter of Vatican II which gave the people some priviliges to participate in their Church? When was the last time the bishops or the Vatican gave any leeway to the laity to decide anything? Please don't tell us the Parish Council is a healthy sounding board to direct our parish. It is a farce when the pastor appears at the meeting with everything already decided. Check the parishes for accuracy of this assertion. Is Vatican II to be forgotten as though all the bishops of the world never legislated new reforms and rights of the people? Under Church law, can a Council be obliterated by bishops who now don't like it and are out to reinstate that unilateral power over everything? If so, where is there truth?
come to the desert where
come to the desert
where there is Truth
beyond the geographical feudal manors of this oppressive and fascist ssytem
come to the desert
and seek God
Who is Love
Freely, without measure, overflowing, without limits
Come to the desert
frère charles du désert OSB OBLAT (Congrégation de Subiaco
What George misses is that
What George misses is that sometimes in terms of orthodoxy & order, the American bishops are the problem. So there is a need for an independent albeit orthodox Catholic voice in America. Hence things like the Wanderer, EWTN, Catholic Family News, the Legionaries, The Latin Mass, The Remnant, Tradition in Action etc., fill the void.
Let us also not forget the antics of Trautman & the Liturgy. The liturgy was completely distorted by ICEL with Trautman as bandleader! Independent Catholic media pointed out the ICEL errors & distortions.
Bishop Trautman is wrong.
Bishop Trautman is wrong. That "translations from the Latin text into the mother tongue intended for use in the liturgy must be approved by the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority" does not mean that Rome does not have the final authority in liturgical translations. Indeed, by Bishop Trautman's logic, the USCCB could "translate" the Latin into English heresy and everything would be fine.
I just wonder who is more
I just wonder who is more expert in the vernacular American language than our own bishops. I find it arrogant that those in Rome think they are more expert in our language than our own scholars.I find it insufferable that our own bishops and the advice of American experts are not taken seriously.
since when was this mongrel
since when was this mongrel tongue of the Englishman a "mother tongue?"
Latin is the mater linguae.
What has English ever mothered but war, division, hatred and imperialist oppression?
Bishop Trautman is not wrong.
Bishop Trautman is not wrong. It is true that final approval of any translation (technically called 'recognitio,' -- recognition, or confirmation) rests with Rome, but Vatican II, in the words he quoted, and the 1983 Code of Canon Law both state clearly that the local bishops' conference has primary responsibility to decide on the translation of Latin texts into the vernacular. In the 1983 code, Canon 838.3 says, "It pertains to the conferences of bishops to prepare and publish, after prior review by the Holy See, translations of liturgical books in vernacular languages." The phrase "after prior review by the Holy See" only refers to the verb "publish," not to the verb "prepare" -- bishops' conferences prepare translations, the Holy See reviews (and where it deems necessary corrects or modifies them), and following Vatican review and approval the bishops' conference authorizes publication and use.
Bishop Trautman has questioned the quality of changes in USCCB translations instituted by the Vatican in a number of specific cases, but he has never questioned the Vatican's right to such a review; it is an entirely unwarranted canard to say his logic would allow the USCCB to translate the Latin into English heresy (as if he thought the Vatican should have no veto power, should that ever happen).
Are bishops who covered up
Are bishops who covered up abuse "Fully Catholic?"
Should the 'Catholic' press be subject to their censorship?
Good point, Walter Sandell.
Good point, Walter Sandell. It seems that Benedict, et al, are trying to silence whomever they perceive is not in sync with their retro policies. What I have always appreciated about The National Catholic Reporter is that it is INDEPENDENT and not subject to censorship by bishops. I hope it stays that way!
I have studied "The Holocaust" extensively. The way the Vatican is proceeding is exactly how the Nazis planned and carried out their step-by-step horrific extermination of persons and groups that did not support the ruling authority.
Something must be done. Hopefully by the American Catholic Bishops. If not, then by whom…?
and heaven forbid if the
and heaven forbid if the laity has an informed opinion or discusses the bishops' (and I mean the world's bishops) handling of sex-offenders among the ordained...could this not be part of their agenda? Will more controlled media or classrooms of higher learning mean that topics will fall off the table as if doing so will make them disappear? Isn't it ironic that we canonized saints who developed our Catholic School system to educate and yet we laity now are told to not use this God-given developed intelligence to contribute to the promotion of the reign of God. By the way, those who love the word "obedience" seem to have forgotten to add the adjective "blind." Jesus came (and still comes) among us to heal our blindness and open our eyes to see for ourselves, not to be led down paths by the self-righteous.
Legalism and fundamentalism:
Legalism and fundamentalism: Cardinal George, "Relations do not speak first of control but of love, if there is a loosening of relationship between ourselves and those whom Christ has given us to govern in love, it is for us to reach out and re-establish connections necessary for all to remain in communion.” Unable to grasp the concept of equality of the People of God, the bishops keep returning to the third century mutation of Christ's teaching to "govern and control". He mentions the need to re-establish connections for all to remain in communion; for this to happen, we must return to the concept of Christ that we are all equals: there are no "governed" or "clerics" or "hierarchs". The only critical "relationship" is that of each individual with Jesus. With LOVE there is no place for "control"!
Cardinal George, "Relations
Cardinal George, "Relations do not speak first of control but of love, if there is a loosening of relationship between ourselves and those whom Christ has given us to govern in love, it is for us to reach out and re-establish connections necessary for all to remain in communion.”
dude, sounds like the definition of an abusive dysfunctional "love" relationship of bondage and slavery and sadism.
sounds not a bit like Love.
If anyone's partner starts talking like this, it is time to call in a protective order.
Where is ours?
Come to the desert.
frère charles du désert OSB OBLAT (Congrégation de Subiaco)
which is why in the third
which is why in the third century good monks fled for the desert to seek God beyond the bishop's grasping hands.
and so it is now
come to the desert
frère charles du désert OSB OBLAT (Congrégation de Subiaco)
Bishop Donald W. Trautman
Bishop Donald W. Trautman cited Paragraph 36.4 of the constitution, which says, “Translations from the Latin text into the mother tongue intended for use in the liturgy must be approved by the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority.” This is true, however, it includes the word "COMPETENT;" Herein, this is what has been the problem all along. There has NOT been a competent translation. Furthermore, Sacrosanctum Concilium never intended for the sacred wording to be what it has been for the past 40 years.
Actually the new translations
Actually the new translations are precisely that: incompetent. The bishops, as the competent authorities, should ins\ist that the translations be shelved.
You are in their crosshairs,
You are in their crosshairs, NCR! This certainly does not sound like "love" to me, it sounds like dictatorship, including demonization and silencing of dissenting voices.
any "love" relationship like
any "love" relationship like this needs a protective order.
yep. :)
yep. :)
Unfortunately it is obvious
Unfortunately it is obvious that the bishops have seen fit to totally disregard Vatican Council II. In this case, I will have to resign frm the Roman Catholic Church.
Bye now.....and God love you!
Bye now.....and God love you!
Please stay! We need people
Please stay! We need people like you to stand up to power.
JR
Dr. Conart, you will not be
Dr. Conart, you will not be alone when you leave. Many Catholics are walking and or voting with their wallets every day. Do these bishops care? NO. As Cardinal George says. "he'd rather have a smaller more obedient church"...sounds like that came right out of the mouth of Jesus doesn't it? The nerve of these bishops to think that we are all going to go along with communion in the hand and the priests back to the congregation. Do they think that we are complete idiots? Have they never even read about body language and what a person's turned back to a person, let alone a church full of people means? Do they think that we don't know when the Tridentine Mass developed and why it went to the priest back to the people and soon and so forth?
Cardinal George loves to twist things and make them sound so harmless. I hate to say it but this man sold his soul for position a long time ago and the Chicago Archdiocese has suffered ever since. I pray the laity will wake-up and stand up and tell these elitist bishops that they need to step down and apologize and ask for forgiveness from the whole Catholic church for all the abuse they let happen to our children and all this dogmatic crap they are trying to tell people we"have"to believe and obey. They are waiting for us to forget about the abuse. We cannot put our heads in the sand and let them get away with it. They broke the law and should be in jail. When is the last time that any of us took advise from a criminal about how to live our lives let alone our faith lives?
Cardinal George (Mr. Know It All) took one of the top 10 churches in the US (as stated in the book by Paul Wilkes)and removed the pastor who had really taught and lived the vision of lay involvement that Vatican II encouraged. He would speak the truth of Jesus Christ and the Cardinal has tried to destroy him and the parish. Why? Because Cardinal George cannot stand the truth being spoken. The Pastor stood up and said things like, we need to get to the bottom of what in the "system" caused the sexual abuse and change it. Oh my Lord, that might mean the Cardinals would loose their jobs! He also asked questions like, what is wrong with a married priesthood and why can't women be ordained? The man received standing ovations from the faith community all the time...he spoke to our hearts and didn't act like we are little children.
Donations are down and it is just not due to the economy. And Cardinal George would love to go to Rome. So go ahead and go Cardinal. We won't miss you, believe you me. So we probably will have to support the Cardinals lifestyle there but it would be worth it for all of us to have him gone. I pray the Lord gets him out of here and then we as an Archdiocese should elect our Bishop. Would that be so awful?
KateD...do tell us which is
KateD...do tell us which is one of the Top 10 churches right here in our fair city...please don't keep us guessing...had that transfered priest exceeded the normal and customary 10 or 12 year assignment?
hasn't Pope Benedict also indicated that the Church may need to become smaller & more faithful?
Don´t let the door hit you on
Don´t let the door hit you on your way out
May God bless you on your new journey
Good bye and have a pleasent
Good bye and have a pleasent life.
I believe that there is a God
I believe that there is a God ordained diversity within the Catholic communion, within the mystical body of Christ. I do what I can to honor this diversity. There are dangers that can come from both sides, The Right and The Left. If this is not recognized, The Right will turn The Church into a cult and The Left will create chaos from its absents of structure. Both will lead us away from Christ and his gospel message. Unfortunately, it seems to me that most of the hierarchy seems to be overly aware of the possible dangers that are inherent with too much emphysis on a liberal interpertation and leadership and a blindness to the dangers of too much emphysis on a conservative interpatationn and leadership.
We, as Catholics, do not give up our willingness to listen to others, to try to understand their perspecive and the lessons they have learned from their journeys and from their pain. Indeed, I believe that the Holy Spirit calls us to do just that. Often times these lessons do not fit into the boxes created by the hierarchy to maintain authority or a political organization. I believe that when that is the case, we as followers of the risen Christ, are often challanged to find new ways of seeing the presence of Christ in the world.
I am grateful to the independend Catholic media and much that is happening in our Catholic universities to generate discussions on a wide range of issues, many of which the hierarchy would perfer we didn't have. There will always be those, both leaders within The Church and many lay Catholics, who will call others not Catholics, even not Christians, because of differences amoung us. This has come from both The Right and The Left. Sometimes these accusations are very direct, other times they are much more subtle. Both, I belive, damage the mystical body of Christ.
I know that their are others who will disagree with my post. Yet, I see them as fellow Christians, who are striving to live, as I am, as followers of Jesus. And as fellow Catholics who believe in the Holy Sacrifice of the mass and His real prescense in the Eucharist. None of us should be denied this holy encounter with the risen Lord because of our differences. If one has a problem with this, I would suggests that they stand back, trust God and let him be the judge. In my mind, it is the only humble thing to do.
This is not always easy, I know, as I certainally have struggle with it and very often still do. But when I am in the mist of the struggle, I am reminded that I do am not pivy to to workings or the pain of the human heart, nor to the sincerity of one's prayer the way God is, so I will release my assumptions and trust God to guide others. All too often we can oppress, even hate, and find ways of calling this oppression and hate, holy. I have read and heard the rationalizations for this many times.
And, finally, I hope we can stop telling others to leave The Church when we have a disagreement. I believe this is a deep violation to the very one which we profess to follow. Love, respect and turning the other cheek can be very, very difficult, I know. But, when we accept our salvation thru the sacrifice of Jesus, we accept following his example to love, sacrifice and to turn the other cheek. I am confounded by the sense that so many see being a follower of Jesus as just the opposite - often times as having a greater sense of entitlement or a greater authority to judge.
As I said, I know that there will be others who will disagree. None-the-less, peace and prayers to all of my fellow travelers on your Christian journey.
thanks, peace and truth come
thanks, peace and truth come together.
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