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PDF version'Don’t even think about it' just isn’t working anymore
Oct. 25, 2010
Women’s ordination advocates call on Pope Benedict XVI to ordain women, in St. Peter’s Square at the Vatican June 8. (AFP/Alberto Pizzoli)
COLUMN
Change always happens one way or another. If it happens through the system, we call it evolution. If it happens despite the system, we call it revolution. The problem is that the spirit of revolution -- that unguided burst of change so often triggered by frustration or despair -- is in the air now, politically, economically and spiritually.
Almost half a century after the opening of the first session of the Second Vatican Council in October 1962, there is a new spirit in the church.
But the spirit that is rising in this church no longer pulses with the promise and energy of Vatican II. There is little sense of new possibilities now. The council’s mandate to welcome the fresh air of the Spirit has gone stale.
But not completely.
The echo of council documents still rings in those who have a living memory or an intuitive fear of what it was like to live in the shadow of the 16th-century Council of Trent. These are the people who experienced the clerical domination that shaped its definition, the medieval caste system that marked its identity, the authoritarianism that shaped its culture. These are the people who took Vatican II seriously. Its call to the laity “to make their needs known to their bishops” began to overflow into church renewal groups.
New life erupted everywhere.
For a while it looked as if things were really changing.
Laypeople took the kind of responsibility for the church that was reminiscent of early Christian communities: They became eucharistic ministers to the sick and elderly in the parish; they became hospital chaplains; they took responsibility for parish marriage courses and RCIA programs; they accepted positions on parish and diocesan boards; they became credentialed church ministers in what had once been exclusively clerical preserves.
An electrifying spirit bubbled up and overflowed in the wake of Vatican II. Renewal groups since then have been intent on making the council documents real. It seems that the list will never end: The Association for the Rights of Catholics in the Church seeks to make the priest-lay relationship plain. Call to Action seeks to bring laity, religious and clerics together to continue the discussion of renewal of the church. Corpus, an association of laicized priests, brings their willingness to minister to bear on the question of married priests. FutureChurch, Women-Church Convergence and the Women’s Ordination Conference began to call for the expansion of the role of women in the church. New Ways Ministry and Dignity seek to bring the attention of the church to the needs of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered Catholics; Voice of the Faithful emerged to enlarge the model of authority in the church; and Priests for Equality and Elephants in the Living Room call for the enlargement of roles for both women and men in the church.
NCR: February 17-March 1, 2012
Subscribe to NCR to get all the news and special features that aren't always available online. In this issue:
- Conscience Roundup
Hear what theologians, commentators, and our editors have to say about the contraception mandate
- Special Section: Religious Life
Work of missioners, past and future; African meetings; and more
- Tribute to a Peacemaker
New York's Pax Christi fetes Daniel Berrigan
And that’s not the whole list of them.
Of special importance to the history of these groups is that all of them set out to function within the rubrics of the church.
But the church, it seems, chose not to take any of them as seriously as the groups themselves took renewal.
They simply closed discussion. Correction: They couldn’t close it. They simply refused to be part of it.
The problem with that approach is that the longer an organization -- any organization -- ignores major internal questions, the more the pressure builds up within it. Like too much water against a dam for too long a time, the cement begins to crack. First, it’s only little cracks, hardly noticeable. Then, if nothing happens, the cracks get larger. Finally, there are more cracks in the dam than the dam can withstand.
For years now, small intentional communities have begun to develop around pressing questions to form their own opinions on them. And brave individuals rose up across the years, plagued by conscience and committed to the Gospel, to speak the unspeakable, louder and more clearly every time. For instance:
- Maryknoll Fr. Roy Bourgeois, founder of School of the Americas Watch, which is one of the most effective groups in the country in the monitoring of the U.S. military’s teaching of torture tactics, spoke out in favor of the ordination of women. The church that took years to expel pedophile priests put Bourgeois out of the priesthood in four months.
- Fr. Michael Tegeder, pastor of St. Edward Parish in Bloomington, Minn., spoke out against the recent Minneapolis-St. Paul archdiocesan DVD campaign against committed same-sex relationships. As a result, Communion was denied to a group of students wearing buttons and sashes to protest that campaign at Archbishop John Nienstedt’s Mass at St. John’s Abbey.
- Sr. Louvenagh Heffernan, an Irish Sister of Loreto, in the light of failing Mass attendance in Ireland and a shortage of priests there, spoke out in favor of the ordination of women.
- Jennifer Sleeman, a grandmother from Cork, Ireland, called “faithful women” to a one-day boycott of Sunday Mass to demonstrate to the church the importance of women while it denies the Eucharist to many because of the lack of male vocations to a celibate clergy.
And all the while, the waters of frustration and despair bubble and stir:
- Charity Sr. Louise Lears was placed under interdict and refused sacraments for attending the ordination of two Roman Catholic Womenpriests in November 2007.
- Charity Sr. Louise Akers of Cincinnati was prevented from teaching or making any presentations in the archdiocese when she refused to publicly disassociate herself from the issue of women’s ordination.
Women have begun to open their own seminaries and ordain their own priests.
Priests for Equality published a non-sexist edition of the scriptures in the face of the Vatican’s refusal to admit that God is speaking to all of us, not simply to men.
Even bishops from various parts of the world, and as a group in Asia, have called for the church to explore such questions in their own synods.
From where I stand, it looks as if “Don’t even think about it” just isn’t working anymore. It looks as if the dam is threatening to break. It looks as if Jesus is walking the road to Galilee again, raising women from the dead, curing the sick on the Sabbath, contesting with the scribes and Pharisees, calling for change so that the churchmen of that time would finally be true to the scriptures they teach.
It looks as if the church may have to choose whether it will foster evolution or risk revolution one more painfully unnecessary time.
[Benedictine Sr. Joan Chittister is a longtime contributor to NCR. Her Web column, From Where I Stand, is found on the NCR Web site: NCRonline.org/blogs/from-where-i-stand.]
Editor's Note: We can send you an e-mail alert every time Joan Chittister's column, "From Where I Stand," is posted to NCRonline.org. Go to this page and follow directions: E-mail alert sign-up. If you already receive e-mail alerts from us, click on the "update my profile" button to add "From Where I Stand" to your list.
The church leadership has
The church leadership has already chosen evolution -- their own style. It is, of course, against the Second Vatican Council and it is civil war against anyone flying the flag of VII.
The 70's ended. You lost.
The 70's ended. You lost. Stop pretending that the laity want womynpriests.
I agree and so I guess you
I agree and so I guess you won. the catholic church is full of preists who are pedefiles and the people who attend the churches are pedofile protecters and are people who do not have a problem with that.THEY WERE WONDERFULLY PROTECTED BY THE HIGHER UPS AND SENT OUT TO TEACH ALL THE CHILDREN EVERYWHERE TO BE A MISFIT HUMAN BEING LIKE THEMSELVES.Jesus would be so proud, huh?
the catholic church is a joke all around the world and its days are numbered.
because someone said goosbye to Christ and hello to money....not even anything original....can you say goodbye to catholosism? well we all can.
This comment is truly
This comment is truly amazing. I will marvel at it for the rest of the day.
I'm so glad that those who
I'm so glad that those who support this article have you on their side! LOL! The Catholic Church will not be ending anytime soon! At least, not until Christ returns in all his glory. While there definitely have been pedophile priests, to our lasting horror, they are a minority of priests. Perhaps you are not a Christian and do not understand the scriptures. Christ promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against his Church, and since the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded and lasts even to this day, even in spite of some ugly sinfulness on the part of some of her members, including her leaders in the past, then you should be able to realize that the Church will never fail, will never end. I pray that you realize that the Truth really does reside in Christ and His Church here on earth and that you open your arms to the faith He has handed down to us through the gift of His Church. It is people within the Church who are sinful, while Christ protects His bride the Church.
Sorry James, the laity does
Sorry James, the laity does want women priests--so do many, if not most, deacons, priests, and even some bishops (though, of course, they can't admit it, lest they be banished).
The Holy Spirit spoke to the
The Holy Spirit spoke to the People of God through Vatican II. This is not a competition -- it's an understanding of faith, Gospele, Vatican II and the continual renewal that is called forth to be Church, not just to belong to a church.
Read some of Cardinal Dearden's comments about Vatican II and you'll see a depth of spirituality and faith that are Gospel-centered and reality-based. He was the extraordinary archbishop of Detroit who helped shape Vatican II.
Wow, James, that's deep.
Wow, James, that's deep. Really? That's the best you've got? You couldn't have illustrated the author's point any better if you tried. I, for one, would love to see women priests in the Catholic Church! When the Vatican II Spirit was lost by the leadership - we all lost.
Catholic Womenpriests is a
Catholic Womenpriests is a separate church it should not be able to call itself Roman Catholic. In US anyone has right to start their own church, if they wish. The problem is this church does not appear to have many places to say Mass, so they try to pretend they are still part of the Roman Catholic church.
Another brilliant column by
Another brilliant column by Sister Joan!
I ask why should the church be called "Roman" anyway? Rome stood for what Jesus opposed....power, military might, suppression, dictatorship...the list goes on and on. On second thought, maybe "Roman" is the correct title for a church that worships itself and its hierarchical power rather than the Lord.
Brilliant! Reminds me of the
Brilliant! Reminds me of the time that an innocent in my RCIA class asked "When you say "Roman" Catholic, do you mean the same Romans who crucified Jesus?" The look of bewilderment on her face I can still recall.
Deacon Brian, you are as
Deacon Brian, you are as naive as your innocent in your RCIA class because:
1. get your facts clear. Rome did not crucify Jesus, the Jews of that time did. (We of today, all of us, are also resposible to some degree towards crucifying Jesus)
2. Answering your RCIA's question: no the "roman" in roman catholic is NOT the same romans who helped the Jews to kill Jesus. Instead it was the much later Rome who through Constantine had become Christian.
Of course I agree that there is some overemphasis, some of the time, not all, on this "roman" aspect. But certainly the points that you refer to, are quite irrelevant and illogical.
Anonymous, you are dead wrong
Anonymous, you are dead wrong (pardon the pun). It WAS the Romans who crucified Jesus, with the permission of Pontious Pilate. It was Roman soldiers who nailed him to the cross. It was Roman soldiers who drew lots for his cloak. It was a Roman soldier who speared Jesus in the side. And I believe it was a Roman magistrate that turned Jesus' body over to Joseph of Arimethia for burial.
As for today, I do not not accept any blame for crucifying Jesus. Yes, I'm a sinner, but I am not responsible for ANY action that occurred before my birth, no matter what your twisted theology might tell you otherwise.
The point, Mr. Who, is that
The point, Mr. Who, is that Jesus died to redeem us all from our sins. Thus, yes, sinful humankind is responsible. Whether you like it or not.
So if the Jews of the time of
So if the Jews of the time of King Herod had opened their arms and fully accepted the teachings of Jesus and allowed him to die of old age, would I be responsible for that as well?
Anonymous on Oct. 31, 2010.
Anonymous on Oct. 31, 2010.
You stated:
"Deacon Brian, you are as naive as your innocent in your RCIA class because:
1. get your facts clear. Rome did not crucify Jesus, the Jews of that time did. (We of today, all of us, are also resposible to some degree towards crucifying Jesus)
2. Answering your RCIA's question: no the "roman" in roman catholic is NOT the same romans who helped the Jews to kill Jesus. Instead it was the much later Rome who through Constantine had become Christian.
Of course I agree that there is some overemphasis, some of the time, not all, on this "roman" aspect. But certainly the points that you refer to, are quite irrelevant and illogical."
-----------------------------------------
Get YOUR facts straight. The Jewish leaders had Jesus brought to Pontius Pilate, the Roman Governor---because they deemed what Jesus did to be a capital crime. And as an occupied people, the Jews did not have the authority to put anyone to death. Don't you attend Palm Sunday Mass or the Holy Week services? The Gospel story of of Passion of Jesus is read---and popularly, the people have speaking parts for this.
All of us, all of us( not just the Jews or the Romans) bear the responsibility for the death of Jesus. At the same time, Jesus' great love for us---his willingness to lay down his life for all of us, won our salvation.
The Romans were Christians and becoming Christians when Paul wrote his letter to them. That was before the "Edict of Milan" was written and before Constantine made Christianity the state religion.
Instead of lecturing Deacon Brian (who is perfectly logical and relevant), you need to get yourself in a good solid Church History Course.
I submit that women priests
I submit that women priests may be more catholic than Benedict XVI. The word "catholic" means "universal" or "all inclusive." Anonymous should check his dictionary. What we have these days is the "Roman exclusionary Church" - the very opposite of a catholic church. Jesus told his disciples that they were not to lord it over others. But that that is precisely what is prevalant in the hierarchy today. Father Bourgeois is being shown who is boss. Sister Louise Akers is being shown who is boss. Universality is being sacrificed on the altar of power.
Joe Wessling
Cincinnati, Ohio
The word "catholic" does not
The word "catholic" does not refer to an open embrace of heresy. Read the writings of the early church fathers to see how they understood "catholic" and the importance of authority in maintaining clarity and purity in doctrine, all the while allowing for its organic development. The early christians readily condemned these groups that sought to do things apart from the Church under the nose of their local bishop. They condemned those groups that embraced heresy.
These "women's ordination" groups and new age heresy movements have essentially split off into heretical sects, which is what should have happened long ago. At least now they are distinct and easily recognizable as not Catholic.
Catholic scoob: another
Catholic scoob: another person with so little conviction that you will not identify yourself by your real name.
If "heresy" means believing that women are fully capable of being called by God to all forms of ministry; if it means believing that gay people are fully graced human beings exactly as God made them; if it means believing that lay people are fully co-equal with clergy, not "beneath" them; if it means believing that married people are fully capable of all forms of ministry; if it means believing that "pro-life" should apply to all life & death issues, not just one....
Then count me a heretic!
No heretic means denying that
No heretic means denying that God calls men and women to serve differently. It means denying that God considers hetrosexual activity an abomination. It means that you cannot support abortion, while affirming pro life in other categories.
But I have some good news for you it does not mean and never has that clergy are above the laity, the clergy is called to serve the laity. You can also believe that married people can serve in all forms of ministry husbands one type and wives another.
I hope that clears it up for you.
k, forgive me please that for
k, forgive me please that for me at least this does not clear it up, but makes me more confused, in particular your statement that "God considers hetrosexual (sic, metro?) activity an abomination."
1.“If a man lies with a male
1.“If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.” (Leviticus 20:13)
2.“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)
Well, then, dear kscrawler,
Well, then, dear kscrawler, why do you countenace "revilers" and reviling? Why do the so-called "true" or "real" Catholics wallow in reviling, calling names and contemptuous remarks? Btw, Paul did not use "homosexuals" since the word did not exist until the late 19th C. and, as in Leviticus, was referring to the exploitation and orgiastic practices of men in power.
It is not up to me to exclude
It is not up to me to exclude revilers, all are welcome as are all of us sinners. But we are not going to welcome a thief and tell him it's ok to keep stealing, we are not going to welcome an adulterer and say it is ok to keep cheating on their spouse. To do so we be an act of hateful enablement. Likewise with someone who has same sex attraction we welcome them and ask them to repent and sin no more.
Of course Paul did not use the word homosexual, he wrote in Greek. It takes an act of gymnastic verbal rationalization to ignore what Paul meant.
in fact none of this is up to
in fact none of this is up to you, as Jesus says Judge not.
Ours is only to love, without measure, presed down, overflowing, falling all around
love
interesting point about the
interesting point about the late nineteenth century, Catherine, and was it not even then spliced from separate linguistic roots?
I am a heretic too and so is
I am a heretic too and so is Christ! Count us in!!!
Me too...
Me too...
Katheleen, if you would like
Katheleen, if you would like to see a road map of where the inclusion of women Priestesses and indeed lesbian priestesses, leads to, then look no further than the Anglican Church. Note the unity between the congregants, hierarchy, and interpretation of theology. Consider the context of history and prayerful contemplation of its participants as this once venerable church is now torn apart and ravaged daily to the point of its becoming inconsequential on the world stage. For a very insightful analysis that predicted this very path 30 years ago, see Paul Seabury in the Harpers article “Trendier than Thou”. Sr Joan would profit from reading it as well.
History describes the immense
History describes the immense effort it took to get a around power-drenched righteously-religious establishment hell bent on preserving slavery and banning women's suffrage. In retrospect and after much pain and strife we all know they were dead wrong!
The same is true on the contemporary front regarding women in the priesthood and the acceptance of the wide ranging continuum of human sexuality from homogeneously heterosexual and homosexual to any number of varients in between.
Hard hearted sadducees and pharisees are alive and well today protecting their turf just like they did in the past. By slandering, threatening and demeaning those they wish to diminish they hope to preserve an unjust and harmful status quo.
The time is at hand for change. What science tells us is natural is much more reliable and life-giving than an ancient and quite inadequate worldview that spawns prejudice, not to mention violence against women outside the home and gays outside the closet.
There is nothing trendy about what Jesus (not the socio-religious powers that be) challenges us to be as folowers of Christ. The struggles we see in the Episcopal church are to be expected.
Hats off to the Episcopal Church. They have seen and heard the radical inclusivity of Jesus Christ and have decided with great resposibility and integrity to pray and act accordingly.
The point of the Church is
The point of the Church is not to be relevant on the world stage, it is to serve the people of the Lord, whether they know they are those people or not, and to serve them without judgement; Christ had and has male and female apostles.
Wow, Joe, you might want to
Wow, Joe, you might want to re-think the meaning of "catholic." I'm fairly certain that when Ignatius of Antioch first used the term, he didn't intend that it mean "embrace every thought that might pass through the heads of anyone ever associated with the Church of Christ." Rather, I'm fairly certain he meant that the "Catholic" Church was a Church grounded in the Truth of Christ that is intended for all. In one case, you let all "truth" in. In the other you say that the Truth applies to everyone. As members of the Church of Christ, with fidelity to the Apostolic Tradition, we believe the latter and not the former.
Thanks Joe for prsenting the
Thanks Joe for prsenting the Truth. Christ would like a little truth for a change. I'm sure Jesus is tired of all the fallderal coming out of official churchDUMB these days.
For Ignatius of Antioch, the
For Ignatius of Antioch, the "church catholic" was the universal (catholic) church, the church as a whole, not just the local church. There were no denominations then, just local groups who were out of sync with the "church catholic." The authority was in the universality of the church, more like the sensus fidei/ sensus fidelium than papal authority, which has been controverial as often as not during most of the history of Christianity, both within AND outside the Church.
An authentic church doesn't
An authentic church doesn't "Say Mass" an Authentic Church
"prays the mass together" - There is no pretending~ isn't God's dream for One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?! Indeed....we are all called to reflect and grow. This can be accomplised as we gather around the Lord's Table and open ourselves to the transforming power of Eucharist and Word. Peace and Blessings
How strong are your
How strong are your convictions if you refuse to identify yourself, Anonymous?
IMHO, the Vatican and the heirarchy (with few exceptions) have left the laity. Left to our own devices, we are creating a new Catholic church which recognizes that Jesus came for all of us.
Yeah an apostate, heretical
Yeah an apostate, heretical church!
Submitted by Anonymous on
Submitted by Anonymous on Oct. 29, 2010.
You stated:
"Yeah an apostate, heretical church!"
----------------------------------------------
Please indicate and prove where these so called "apostates and heretics" are
disagreeing with articles of the Nicene Creed? The Creed contains the main articles of our faith. That is what is professed each week at Sunday liturgy.
When the early Councils of the Church were formulating what it is exactly that we believe---these articles of faith were written and approved.
None of the people that you call apostates and heretics are violating any of these articles.
I must agree. Catholic
I must agree. Catholic Womenpriests are not Roman Catholic any longer. They have been excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church. I am not sure why they do not accept this fact. They, like the Old Catholics in Europe and the many various Independent Catholic Churches here in the USA are visions of the spirit of Vatican II and the ever developing Spirit within us. I'd say, move on and be who you are: be Catholic, just not Roman. Rejoice in this reality. The Roman Catholic Church is not the only Catholic Church. Peace!!
One of the more telling
One of the more telling reports that I've heard indicates, but doesn't prove, that Catholics are much more upset with the RCC than is visibly apparent.
A Jevohah Witness recently told me that Catholics are now the most open-minded group to hear the JW missionary message. They listen to the message; may not act on it. But it was only a few years ago when most Catholics I know would simply say, "Thank you, I'm Catholic" and close their door.
The dam may be a lot weaker than sister thinks.
Catholics more and more are
Catholics more and more are forming the backbone of the evangelical movement at a quickening pace, but the Vatican and the hierarchy, together with their allies the so-called "orthodox Catholics", are still ,at least publicly, in a state of denial. Churches ranging from the OCA (Orthodox Church in America with many evangelical pastors as converts) to the southern Baptist churches have reported their second largest number of converts are cradle Catholics. I've read Evangelical Lutheran pastors reporting their single biggest source of conversions to Lutheranism is the RCC.
This may explain in part Benedict's desire to call the Synod on the Bible in 2008. One could almost hear the pope and the bishops singing "Bringing in the Sheaves" at the start of each session.
As long as Rome fails to meet basic spiritual needs, has a continuing civil war over the Tridentine Mass versus the Mass of Pope Paul VI, puts honoring relics and worshiping the golden bread box on a higher plane than looking for and meeting Jesus elsewhere in the Church, and manifests institution-wide corruption and low esteem for those they label "unorthodox", this Grand Exit of Catholics can be expected to continue.
Departing Roman Catholics of
Departing Roman Catholics of the “smells and bells” sort are drawn to Eastern Orthodoxy by a liturgy on a par with (and even exceeding) Tridentine ceremonial and by a married (BUT ALL-MALE) clergy – save for bishops, who are unmarried and celibate.
Departing Roman Catholics of the “happy-clappy” sort are drawn to low-church Protestantism.
Departing Roman Catholics of the “vapidly voguish” sort are drawn to Episcopalianism.
Roman Catholics of the “salt of the earth” sort stay at home.
"Roman Catholics of the “salt
"Roman Catholics of the “salt of the earth” sort stay at home."
and illumined Roman Catholics see through the fraud and hoax heretical Rome offers them and convert to the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Willingness to buy the
Willingness to buy the flat-out nonsense JWs (God bless them for their sincerity) are selling reflects lousy education and lousy catchesis.
Once again S. Joan has
Once again S. Joan has clarified concisely the exact issues the male hierarchy refuses to address. Their fear will only isolate them further and that is a sad thing. No wonder Jesus is crying over his church. peace, Kerrie
JESUS IS LAUGHING AT THE
JESUS IS LAUGHING AT THE RIDICULOUS MEN WHO THINK THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN PROCLAIM THE FAITH IN JESUS'S NAME!!!!
So are women now unable to to
So are women now unable to to proclaim faith in Jesus' name? I am not a priest but have no problem faith in Christ.
Oh, yes! Thank you Joan
Oh, yes! Thank you Joan Chittister! This makes my heart sit up and take notice. I think you read the signs of the times correctly, but what I worry is that it is just going to take the church far too long to change internally. I wonder if the movements you speak of will simply set up alternative churches outside the Roman structure; presenting sacraments; teaching children; ordaining women; and inviting the people of God to BE the people of God. And please, Lord, don't let anyone write in to comment, "Yup, it's been done--they're called Episcopalians and you are welcome to join!"
I don't have to say it
I don't have to say it because you did. When I was getting ready to marry and start a family I didn't want to bring up children in such a repressive structure as the Roman Catholic church and my mother's best friend took my fiance and I to her Episcopal church. Thank God!! I have felt at home for the last 30 years. The liturgy is there, the sacraments are there, and the breath of God is open to all. Do come and join us Episcopalians, you won't miss the repression at all.
The Episcopal Church has all
The Episcopal Church has all you could ever desire!
The Episcopal Church and the
The Episcopal Church and the Lutheran church are both breaking into two churches over gay marriage etc. The larger parts are the churches that oppose gay marriage. The Orthodox Church in America who bishops can also trace their roots to the apostles, and many evangelical churches might be a better choice for Catholics that are leaving than becoming un-churched. Personally I plan to stay Roman Catholic.
The Orthodox Church is as bad
The Orthodox Church is as bad as Rome when it comes to the issue of women priests. Catholics fed up with Benedict's corrupt church are better off with the Protestant Episcopal Church. Let the Anglo Catholic wing flee and cross the Tiber. Most of them are simply gay bashers, more Roman than Rome, unwilling to face the fact that latin-rite bishops knowingly ordain gay, unchaste seminarians all the time. Those same bishops go on to denounce them and the entire gay and lesbian community from the pulpit. Rome is a bedrock of hypocrisy.
Many in the Anglo Catholic wing are insufferable whiners with their incessant complaining and crybaby pleas to Rome to save them. They want to embrace Roman Catholicism to save themselves, first and foremost, from the lady bishops who eventually will be a reality when the Synod of the Church of England votes on the proposal to consecrate them. It's just a matter of time. Not a question of whether such a vote by the Synod will take place. The Synod is definitely going to vote for the consecration of lady bishops within a year. You can almost set your calendar and watch to it.
The Episcopal Church also has the most beautiful churches in the US without exception, perform most of their liturgies better than the RCC ever did or will do and in English, possess wonderful choirs, all the smells and bells without the accompanying stench of corruption and hypocrisy Rome exudes along with it.
You receive the species of wine plus the bread all the time and not just when the priest or bishop thinks you should have them. The clergy are free to marry. Most are intelligent and articulate and generally very well educated. Women can be ordained to the priesthood or episcopate with the vote of clergy and laity. Parish vestries are something of a check on brazen clerical authoritarianism. Unlike the Roman Church, this gives Episcopalians a huge advantage and a definite say in the governing of the parish and the Episcopal Church.
Christ's gospel is alive and well and He's truly present in both Word and Sacrament. It is a perfect model for Rome's own eventual reform.
You are right about one
You are right about one thing--you can have all the bread and wine you want at the Episcopal Church USA!
According the Pew Forum on
According the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, the fastest imploding U.S. churches are mainline Protestant, and the fastest imploding of these is The Episcopal Church (just a shade over 2m members in 2009 currently falling at the rate of 2.81% per annum). I guess, then, it’s no surprise you’re here recruiting, Ann.
The hierarchy not only
The hierarchy not only refuses to discuss ordaining women, but refuses to discuss ordaining married men. Laymen are excommunicated for wanting to have a voice in their parish. JP II selected the most reactionary priests available to become his Bishops and for 30 years we have had the hierarchy attempt to roll back Vatican II. The official attitude was if you don't like it, get out. This is our Church too, the Church does not just belong to the hierarchy. I am not getting out and I am not shutting up.
JP II seemed to think that he could just get tough and shut down any change. It worked on the surface, but cracks are starting to show on the facade. This strategy of refusing to deal with any change and in fact roll back change, has resulted in a Church that is brittle and starting to crack. Even conservatives understand that you cannot "freeze" the Church in place at the Council of Trent. You hold fast on some issues, such as abortion, but compromise on others, such as ordaining married men. JP II has left us a Church that cannot change, that is rigid to the point of being brittle and starting to crack.
There will be change, or there will be major schism. It's coming and sooner than people realize. Meanwhile the Bishops prance around in Cappa Magnas, Red Shoes and ever bigger miters, as a sort of eclesiastical drag queen pageant, intent to dragging us even further back into the middle ages. I think the smarter Bishops understand that this is not sustainable, but of course, if they speak up, they get slapped down. The culture of yes men appointed by Rome has resulted in a hierarchy which simply cannot do anything but try to please Rome, even when they know they are going in the wrong direction.
Buckle your seat belts, major turbulence ahead.
Indeed... the winds of change
Indeed... the winds of change are upon us... and the Holy Spirit is driving them... right into the 21st century... Though I may not be around when all this takes place... I'll continue to plant the seeds from where I stand today (teacher in a Catholic High School):)
Me think you doth protesteth
Me think you doth protesteth too much. Now just how many bishops have been photographed wearing the magna cappa ? I can think of two: Edward Slattery and Raymond Burke.
It would surprise you how
It would surprise you how many bishops have a cappa magna and the little booties and gloves to go with their lace dresses. These queens are more numerous in Europe, but they're copycat colleagues in the American hierarchy are increasing in numbers.
If given the chance, the ultra trad young fogies entering the seminary and they would buy up the last of the cappa magnas from Rome's prelatical coutouriers.
May I recommend Colm Toibin's
May I recommend Colm Toibin's review of the book: "The Pope Is Not Gay" by Angelo Quattrocchi, from London Review of Books:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n16/colm-toibin/among-the-flutterers
A very intelligent review!
AMEN! Thank you Sr. Joan.
AMEN!
Thank you Sr. Joan.
thank you Sister... well
thank you Sister... well stated..
Actually 'Don't even think
Actually 'Don't even think about it' seems to be working just fine. Look at the picture included in the article. It's a picture of four, FOUR older ladies holding signs. That's it.
And actually the current spirit, being nourished by BXVI in the Church, IS the true receiver of Vatican II. The version you people are trying to push is about as fresh and new as a hemp-smelling pair of bell-bottom jeans.
Read the actual documents of Vatican II. THOSE are the future.
The laughably twisted 'spirit of' ideas that so many throwbacks push, that bear no relation at all to what was actually proposed at the Council, shall fail. Woman 'priests', acceptance of homosexual 'marriage', acceptance of infanticide, embracing imperialistic war, etc. None of these ideas, proposed by either right or left, will survive. They will be tossed on the dust heap along with Arius, Pelegius, et al.
God Bless Benedict XVI, and may he guide the Barque of Pter to be the light of the World.
Dear Peter the greek, Nope,
Dear Peter the greek, Nope, it's not four elderly women or a few who agree with Sister Joan, There are many, many Catholics, former Catholics and people of other faiths who feel the damn getting ready to break. It is a very sad reality. The hierarchy of the Church can try to close their ears, and eyes trying to push out those who question but in reality they are only left with a shell of a body and not the Body of Christ. I am not saying it is an us against them situation but Benedict and his recking crew are trying to make it that way. I pray for them as I pray for the Body of Christ who make up the REAL Church.
Well Pete, all I can say is
Well Pete, all I can say is you didn't read the documents of Vatican II because they in no way support what is happening in the church heirachy at all.
So, I am not quite sure what you read but you did not read the Vatican II documents so stop lying and pretending you did. Geez, you can't go backwards Pete! Peace...
Pretty soon the "Barque of
Pretty soon the "Barque of Peter" will be a canoe paddled by several "fashionistas" vested in medieval garb.
Really? If our Pope of
Really? If our Pope of Christian Unity lives 5 more years the College of Cardinals will be quite orthodox. May God bless and keep him among us for many, many years!
Pete, yes. While you wish
Pete, yes. While you wish these older women--what you call these throwbacks--would "just die off" because there are only a few of them in these pictures and a dying lot of them in the religious orders, the truth is, there are very few young women at all that actually CARE and thus no photo ops with younger Catholic women unless you go to Opus Dei and get some of those young single women, like the Muslim Sharia women with their heads and faces covered, who are polishing the dressers and being brainwashed, yes, the Opus Dei treatment of women that the Vatican itself, and your beloved Benedict himself, is investigating.
We younger women are sick of working all day to send our sons and daughters to a Catholic school that teaches that we females are "less than" men and that we "cannot represent Jesus" because, like the Hooters Girls, what matters most to the Church is what is on the outside (our sexual organs) than what is on the inside (our minds, souls, hearts).
Let me say that again to you, Mr. Pete. There even fewer younger women that represent such "photo ops" than these older women that you so lovingly wish would just "die off" and disappear. Be careful what you wish for. In a few years, the very few left in the Church will be men as it is a religion OF men, FOR men, and defined exclusively BY men.
May peace be with you, sir.
Anonymous, a slight
Anonymous, a slight correction. I don't think Opus Dei is being investigated. You may be thinking of Legionaries of Christ and its lay arm, Regnum Christi.
well, it ought to be! the
well, it ought to be!
the Church speaks!
You go anon!! Give Mr. Pete
You go anon!! Give Mr. Pete a dose of reality!
Hurrah for you and all young women who see the truth amidst these exclusive and absurd men-only-club-lies.
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