Cloyne Report fallout: Vatican recalls nuncio from Ireland

Archbishop Leanza was "recalled", as he was probably about to be expelled
from Irish soil, as he should be!

Rome will respond to "excesses" with "obhectivity and determination"
How good of them.

When the church loses the Irish, brother and sister, you'd better pray.

I don't see how any reaction to clergy sexual abuse anywhere can be deemed "excessive". An excessive reaction might be to move Bernard Law from the US to the Vatican and then put him in charge of one of the 4 major basilicas in Rome. Now that was a little excessive.

The faithful Irish have the courage to stand for the truth. The Vatican is Cosa Nostra, not Christ. This must change or the Catholic Church as desired by the reactionaries will be a dead dinosaur. In the meanwhile, the Holy Spirit is gently blowing through the community of believers and will hopefully prevail soon. Eve

"After the prime minister spoke, Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, Vatican spokesman, issued a statement calling for greater objectivity in discussing "topics so dramatic" because the first concern of all should be "the safeguarding of children and of young people and the renewal of a climate of trust and collaboration" between church and state.".... The Vatican "first concern" is the safeguarding of children? Hahahahaha. That's the best laugh I've gotten in many a year. Safeguarding children has never been the Vatican's or the Bishops first concern. It's always been about protecting themselves and their power.

"And in doing so, the Cloyne Report excavates the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism and the narcissism that dominate the culture of the Vatican to this day," the prime minister said.

IT WOULD SEEM FROM THE PRIME MINISTER'S STATEMENT THAT THE WORLD (IRELAND AT LEAST) IS BEGINNING TO REALIZE THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "GOOD 'OL BOY" CULTURE IN THE VATICAN. I SINCERELY BELIEVE WE NEED CONCECRATED RELIGIOUS WOMEN RUNNING THE CHURCH. THEY ARE MUCH MORE IN TOUCH WITH THE PEOPLE OF GOD THAN THE POPE, CARDINALS AND BISHOPS WHO HAVE LITTLE, IF ANY CONTACH WITH THE EVERY DAY CATHOLIC.

BROTHER LUKE

Perhaps it is time to withdraw recognition of the Vatican and re-call the Irish ambassador until such time that the Vatican becomes more open and honest.

The "surprise" that I experience, although I should know better by this time, is the Vatican's continuing attitude of not seeming to understand the depth of this child abuse crisis. I seem to note that there is always a tone of being victimized, persecuted, from the Vatican. When, in fact, the situation is quite the opposite. Indeed, the church authorities have protected abusers for many long decades, while little children have suffered horribly. Yet the Vatican still does not completely acknowledge the pain it has caused.

People are disgusted with "the Vatican", they just don't get it.

Whether or not PM Kenny of Ireland is right in his denunciations of the "dysfunction, disconnection, elitism and the narcissism that dominate the culture of the Vatican to this day," he is unfortunately not alone. It remains to be seen whether Rome will take this opportunity to learn why so many people continue (rightly or wrongly) to distrust it. In any case, it should at least ask itself seriously why such misapprehensions (if that's what they are) are possible. The reaction to the Cloyne report once again presents the Vatican with an opportunity to learn something useful from the outside world -- and indeed from many of the Catholic faithful. Whether it chooses to listen, or once again to harden its heart, is, of course, its own choice.

Thank God someone has has the guts to stand up to the Vatican bullying. The Church will be stronger and spiritually richer as a result.

It seems that it is about time to let go of the Holy Roman Empire and all of the trappings that go with it; Ambassadors, Nuncios, and all of the titles of royalty. We are a church - a community of the faithful - the people of God. All of this other stuff is a sign of Constantine and the church that arose during the middle ages, owning almost all of Italy, crowing kings, etc. We are a community of sinners - all raised to new life; transformed into the body and blood of Christ to feed the world starving for life. The credibility of the Church seems to demand a transformation in the institution.

Good for the Irish! Maybe, just maybe these horrible issues will be addressed and the Vatican will finally get it and begin the reform it needs to regain our trust. We can only hope.

"After the prime minister spoke, Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, Vatican spokesman, issued a statement calling for greater objectivity in discussing "topics so dramatic" because the first concern of all should be "the safeguarding of children and of young people and the renewal of a climate of trust and collaboration" between church and state."

There has been no collaboration except for hollow words between the Vatican and anyone when it comes to protecting children. The Vatican has proven itself untrustworthy over and over as it ignores innocent children while only trying to protect pedophile priests. I hope more governments become involved in the crimes of the Vatican and its pedophile protectors. In a court of law or public opinion, repeatedly being caught in lies undermines ones credibility. I can't wait to see the Vatican bull machine's response to the Irish prime minister report?

Enda Kenny's speech has been a needed beacon, finally an elected official who speaks truth to the power of the Vatican.

I feel saddened by this whole world wide problem of sex abuse, and hope the church has learned you don.t solve serious problems by trying to cover up the crime and protecting the guilty. The clergy, like everyone else, have to be ready to face the consequences for their actions.

A very strong, welcome and much appreciated message was delivered by Prime Minister Enda Kenny of Ireland. It is very welcome indeed. I have sent the article by Maureen Dowd in the New York Times (The End of Awe)to many people. I have listened to the speech by Kenny on Youtube. It is something that needed to be said. The Vatican should realize that with the world of communication that we have now, we are going to need a church that responds to criticism by dialogue and reflection rather than defense and punishment.

The laity is being educated, reading scripture, reading the newpaper and the internet, and is instantly aware of some change or conflict. It is a changing world and there should be a changing church to keep up.

Virginia Edman

Please God, may the Vatican reply with humility and shame instead of going all defensive. If it does not, then its image of power and arrogance and being out of touch is further enhanced instead of humble and concerned service in the manner of Christ being presented. The damage to the body of Christ is mirrored in the abuse of the bodies of Christ's little ones.

"Holy" See?

A good house cleaning is long overdue at the Vatican, and it is time for the silence of the priests--especially in the United States--to be broken. Why are they so afraid to speak truth to power? Fidelity is due to God/Christ not the pope and the hierarchy who have long abandoned the Gospel example of Jesus as He lived it.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Is there something about the color purple that brings about the worst in some men? The stories of arrogance and insensitivity on the part of the Church's elete are so often repeated that we are now getting used to it. Their credibility as moral stewards is in shambles. Men and women of conscience are speaking out. We need to listen to them and let their voice be ours. Evil cannot exist in the bright light of the truth.

Cheers to Prime Minister Kenny! At last there is a leader with enough courage to stand up to the Vactican. This is especially significant coming from one who is a member of the Roman Catholic church and telling the Pope that the Irish government is not going to put up with their antics.

Ratzinger, Bertone, Levada, Hoyos, Law.... c'mout wi yer hands up!!!

Up to this time and for many many years the all-powerful liberal lobby within the Church continues to steadily downplay sin and its terrible consequences in favor of episcopal independence and self-described "unbiased listening". This crisis hits, and the same folks shout that Rome should act with all force and that they co-incident shout that such sin is worthy of hellfire. Liberal minded folks seem by their teachings as well as published catechetical materials to have removed the terrible truth of reality of hell these past 40 years in favor of a kind of metaphor. If honest, these folks might as well publicly acknowledge that they have actually embraced post-modernism and are ready to say goodbye to philosophical realism.. In layperson's words "I'm OK Jack, tough on you beloved..." I find this to be a betrayal of the idea of a common-sense up-to-date and vital Catechetical encompassing catholic faith and morals which is deeply embued with Apostolic Tradition, Magisterial Teaching and Biblical. Pray for all concerned...

"....Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, Vatican spokesman, issued a statement calling for greater objectivity in discussing "topics so dramatic" because the first concern of all should be "the safeguarding of children and of young people and the renewal of a climate of trust and collaboration" between church and state."
Fr. Lombardi, the Bishops, Cardinals and Vatican, the ones who should be at the Vanguard of safeguarding children and young people, are the very ones who have not done so. It is not their first concern. Self-protection of the Roman Catholic Church was foremost for them. Not only have they not protected them, they have often refused to hear their pleas, turned them away, protected priest pedophiles instead and transferred known criminals. They ought to be ashamed of themselves....There will be no climate of trust until they stop apologizing and admit their guilt, resign or be fired, open their files to the criminal justice system and if they're found guilty, serve their time. It's easy to say "I'm Sorry"....doesn't hurt at all, but it doesn't heal the deep wounds they have inflicted. Let's go back to what our Catechism said:

".....Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner
This means that mortal sins cannot be done "accidentally." A person who commits a mortal sin is one who knows that their sin is wrong, but still deliberately commits the sin anyway. This means that mortal sins are "premeditated" by the sinner and thus are truly a rejection of God’s law and love.

The first condition, that a mortal sin is of grave matter, means that certain premeditated offenses against God are more severe than others." And Jesus told us what he has in store for those who harm children.

May I suggest that the Vatican alo recall about 50 U.S. bishops for starters and hold a training session on, "What can I do for a living, after I"m held accountable for all the damage I've done to the Catholic Church."

If you want to learn about the true extent of the Vatican's failure to respond to the sexual abuse of children by priests read the book "Render Unto Rome" by Jason Berry. I am appalled at what I have learned.

I only wish that Catholics from the U.S. were as clear sighted and as brave as those of Ireland. I pray that the manipulations of the Vatican will not be tolerated.

Excessive? The usual patronizing sneers from the monarchical Vatican to its serfs.

If people think they have been wronged criminally, then why not go directly to the Civil authorities? I think you know the answer; those authorities are still deferring to the Church. Now you know why China is fighting have bishops appointed solely by Rome. It creates the situation where a bishop owes his position to Rome.

"Recall" seems to be an officious, dire and serious diplomatic term to say that the nuncio was going to Rome to attend a meeting to discuss a response to the report. Could the nuncio not simply have "flown to Rome for a meeting", or have read the report and forwarded a draft to Rome for review?

The courage of the Irish is outstanding; the courage of the PM overwhelming. Ah! how the Holy Spirit broods over the Irish. We may now want to pray to Catherine of Siena to beg her assistance in papal reform. I'm sure she's blessed the PM.

One of the crucial questions in all of this is whether the Vatican was telling the Bishops to keep quiet. The actual phrasing of the pertinent sentence in the Nuncio's letter to the Irish Bishops, is being debated.

Its not as if the Vatican is going to put it in black and white, is it?

But a huge non-verbal communication, inviting all Cardinals and Bishops to remain silent has been out there for years - the continuing protection afforded to Cardinal Bernard Law! 'Your silence will be rewarded, gents!' is the clear message.

I think that it's hard for most of us to understand how the catholic church functions historically. The Vatican thinks it has been extremely forthcoming and honest in its dealing with the abuse of children by priests. The usual response of the church is " we'll get back to you in a hundred years". The Vatican will also hem and haw about any complicated problem that the press brings to its attention. It will gradually over time make more and more simple statements about the matter, but nothing radical or pertinent. As times goes by, the issue fades from the public discourse, and the church is let off the hook. This is the way the catholic church has dealt with abuses of power in its past, and this is exactly what it's doing right now. It's true that they think in terms of hundreds of years. The institution is not designed to respond quickly or clearly to its critics. The Vatican feels it will be around for another 2000 years, so why worry?

Or did Prime Minister Kenny just cynically jump on a band wagon. That's not to defend child abuse, something Irish Governments have also been willing partners in during the past. Its not to defend Bishops and priests who have let the Church down. There is still a Christian Faith to be upheld and it felt to me that Mr Kenny was not unhappy to attack the good along with the bad.

Bravo to Enda Kenny for standing up to the self proclaimed "Holy See." The "Holy See" refuses to see. The "Holy See" only sees itself as the victim.

The "Holy See" is trying to rescue its lost authority, when the "Holy See" has squandered its credibility. The "Holy See" is afraid to admit the truth. The "Holy See" is still doing and saying things in public while doing and saying different things in secret.

The "Holy See" wants everyone to believe that this worldwide cover up of scandals in every diocese across the globe occurred randomly and accidentally without any knowledge of Rome. The "Holy See" doesn't want to admit that every bishop is mandated by the Vatican to keep secret all scandals because then Rome would have to accept responsibility for enabling the abuse of children.

The "Holy See" is not holy because it fears the truth. The secrecy of the hierarchy has been exposed. Their lies have been exposed. The fact that the "Holy See" doesn't get it exposes a pope who is out of touch with the real world. The "Holy See" cannot see because Pope Benedict cannot see.

The papal nuncio going back to Rome will not change the fact that the
"Holy See" is both blind and unholy!

Is this PM Catholic? He wants to introduce legislation to imprison priests who refuse to break the seal of the confessional. If he is Catholic then he should be excommunicated as soon as that legislation is introduced. Any Catholic MP who votes for it should be excommunicated as well.