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PDF version2,000 meet to call for reform in Detroit
The American Catholic Council gathering
Jun. 21, 2011
On the first night of the American Catholic Council convention June 10, nearly 1,800 gathered to hear a keynote address from Jeanette Rodriguez, who discussed demographic shifts within the church and the impact and contributions of Hispanic communities on U.S. Catholicism. (NCR photo/Sara Wiercinski)
DETROIT -- As the inaugural convention of the American Catholic Council was drawing to a close June 12, an estimated 2,000 reform-minded Catholics stood en masse to endorse a 10-point Catholic Bill of Rights and Responsibilities that asserts primacy of conscience and the right of every Catholic to have a voice in the way the church is run, as well as an obligation to advance the proclamation of the Gospel to the world and the church’s social teaching.
The approval of the document followed two days in which speaker after speaker articulated the participants’ frustration at growing clericalism in the church and what they viewed as sustained efforts by church authorities to slow down or reverse many of the reforms of the Second Vatican Council.
They took issue with a wide range of teachings, policies and practices in the church -- from the bans on artificial birth control, women priests and married priests, to the church’s treatment of women.
Speakers criticized the way bishops have handled clerical sex abuse; the church’s treatment of gays; lack of consultation with the laity; mismanagement of church funds and property; closings of parishes and sales of the closed churches to pay off diocesan debts; and politicization of the Eucharist by some bishops who threaten to withhold Communion from insufficiently pro-life politicians.
They objected to Vatican rules requiring literal translation of Latin liturgical texts and forbidding or sharply limiting the use of inclusive language in the liturgy.
For a single reporter who could cover all the main talks but was able to attend only a few of the dozens of simultaneous smaller-group breakout sessions held during the meeting, it was difficult to discern which issues were the most crucial to the group, but four, all interconnected, seemed to stand out:
- The role of women: the church’s increasingly hard-line prohibition against women priests, its refusal to consider restoration of women to the diaconate, Vatican opposition to inclusive language, the denial of many church offices to women, and the fact repeatedly testified to by participants that many priests and bishops are insensitive to women’s concerns and react with fear, invoking their authority instead of engaging in constructive dialogue.
- Restorationism: Speakers and participants widely shared the view that under Pope Benedict XVI and his predecessor, John Paul II, there has been a serious backpedaling on many Vatican II teachings and reforms -- liturgical reform, lay participation, church engagement in the world, consultation in church decision-making, to name just a few.
- Hierarchical authoritarianism and clericalism: In many areas, among them a revival of episcopal threats of excommunication or other church penalties as a response to dissent in matters open to serious debate, speakers and participants regarded the exercise of hierarchical authority as increasingly authoritarian in recent years. They also considered clericalism, concerned more with priestly and episcopal prestige and power rather than pastoral care and service, a growing issue in numerous areas of church life.
- Inculturation: An underlying issue, reflected in all three other areas, was a concern among speakers and participants that progress in the dynamic of inculturation of the Gospel and the church around the world has been increasingly stymied over the past three decades or so by Vatican decisions requiring global uniformity and rejecting local initiatives in many areas -- perhaps most notably in quashing official attempts by bishops’ conferences to advance the inculturation of the liturgy. Speakers and participants found an increasing dissonance in recent decades between Vatican II and Pope Paul VI’s goals of greater inculturation and the global uniformity imposed by Paul’s successors.
The June 10-12 American Catholic Council meeting closed with a Sunday Mass that provoked controversy before and after, with Detroit Archbishop Allen Vigneron prohibiting his priests and deacons from participating on penalty of laicization (see sidebar).
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Attendees participate during the opening prayer service at the American Catholic Council meeting June 10. (NCR photo/Sara Wiercinski)Despite Vigneron’s threat, council co-chair Janet Hauter said in an e-mail to NCR after the meeting, “The estimate we had was 100 [Detroit archdiocesan] priests as they were recognized by others. Interestingly -- and somewhat humorous -- some registered under pseudonyms, so we had [the late German Jesuit theologian] Karl Rahner and [the late French Dominican theologian] Yves Congar and others.”
“Fear is an ugly thing, isn’t it?” Hauter added. “We did hear, however, extreme gratitude [from the Detroit priests who attended] for stepping out, giving the priests hope.”
She added that many of the participants were women religious, and organizers heard that “several are asking to be on the next agenda of their community’s gathering to inform them of the ACC, asking them to step up as well, following our lead.”
It appeared that well over half the participants were 65 or older and most of the rest were at least 50. There was only a small scattering of those in their 20s, 30s or 40s. Demographic figures the council organizers reported from pre-meeting listening sessions across the country over the two years leading up to the Detroit meeting seemed to support this observation.
Detroit participants were also overwhelmingly white, with only a tiny black and Hispanic presence.
Anthony Padovano -- a theologian, convention speaker, one of the council’s founders, and first president of CORPUS, an association of resigned, married priests seeking inclusion of married and female priests in the Catholic priesthood -- told NCR that organizers “tried hard” over the past two years to reach out to black and Hispanic Catholic organizations and leaders and encourage their participation, but they received almost no positive response.
An interesting statistic on participants in the listening sessions -- almost certainly mirrored in the convention -- was their educational level: Sixty-five percent of those who answered the listening session survey said they had at least a master’s degree.
Most of those interviewed informally by NCR in Detroit over the course of the meeting were actively engaged not only in parish affairs, but also in other church-related activities, and most of them clearly had graduate degrees -- often in fields closely related to their involvement in church activities.
By this reporter’s estimate, two-thirds of the convention participants were women, and a significant number of them were women religious.
Keynote speakers at the convention included:
- James Carroll, a former priest and the author of Practicing Catholic, who delivered an impassioned address on why he finds remaining Catholic a part of the core of his being, despite the tensions he often confronts. “We are here out of love for the Catholic church” that transcends any differences, he said. Many participants informally interviewed by NCR regarded his talk as the most inspiring and challenging of the meeting.
- Swiss-born theologian Fr. Hans Küng, 83, one of the most prominent theological experts at Vatican II, who for reasons of age and health addressed the gathering in the form of a videotaped interview from his home near the University of Tübingen, Germany. He urged a “peaceful” revolution of the world’s Catholics against what he called an “absolutism” of papal power today, comparable to the absolutism, rooted in the idea of the divine right of kings, of French monarchs overthrown by the French Revolution in the 18th century.
- Benedictine Sr. Joan Chittister, who on the final morning of the meeting urged conference participants to challenge priests and bishops for whom “political power is more important than spiritual leadership.” At Vatican II, she said, the world’s bishops “told us we were the church, and we thought they meant it,” but persistent church demeaning of women, alienating the central actors who raise the next generation of Catholics, threatens the very lifeblood of the church’s future, she said.
- Padovano, who argued forcefully from historical and theological resources for a return to more democratic forms of church governance and for greater recognition of Blessed Cardinal John Henry Newman’s idea of the sensus fidelium -- the consensus of baptized Catholics -- as the primary basis for determining what Catholic faith says. If today’s church were operating on that basis, Padovano claimed, Catholic teaching or practice would be far different today on artificial contraception, married priests, women priests, gay marriage and the advance of ecumenical relations with other Christian churches.
- Jeanette Rodriguez, a Latina scholar and professor of theology at Jesuit-run Seattle University, who delivered a highly nuanced analysis of the challenges Hispanic theologians face on inculturation questions as they try to assess the theological and ecclesial significance of Hispanic Catholicism -- a minority soon destined to become the majority of U.S. Catholics.
- Matthew Fox, a former Catholic Dominican priest who became an Episcopal priest in 1994 rather than submit to silencing by the Vatican after his writings on spirituality challenged Catholic teachings on original sin. Fox described the Vatican as in schism from the real church and urged council participants to join him in ignoring edicts from Rome and to follow Christ on their own.
Fox was a last-minute substitute for Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, a member of the Kennedy clan and a former Maryland lieutenant governor, who could not attend the meeting as originally planned.
Several participants questioned by NCR described Fox’s talk as the least challenging of all the major talks, saying his proposal to consider Rome in schism and go their own separate way was rather superficial and not a realistic option for those committed to stay the course and challenge church trends from within.
But one participant from an upper Wisconsin parish, attending the convention with his wife, told NCR June 11 that he was so “mad as hell” at recent church decisions that he would seriously consider becoming part of a church that formally separated from Rome.
[Jerry Filteau is NCR Washington correspondent.]
| Catholic Bill of Rights and Responsibilities
The introduction to the Catholic Bill of Rights and Responsibilities cites the U.S. Bill of Rights and international documents on human rights to say that in joining the church, Catholics do not give up those fundamental human rights. In keeping with Catholic teaching that rights also involve responsibilities, it links the two throughout. Its main text says that Catholic rights and responsibilities include: 1. Primacy of conscience. Every Catholic has the right and responsibility to develop an informed conscience and to act in accord with it. 2. Community. Every Catholic has the right and responsibility to participate in a eucharistic community and the right to responsible pastoral care. 3. Universal ministry. Every Catholic has the right and responsibility to proclaim the Gospel and to respond to the community’s call to ministerial leadership. 4. Freedom of expression. Every Catholic has the right to freedom of expression and to the freedom to dissent. 5. Sacraments. Every Catholic has the right and responsibility to participate in the fullness of the liturgical and sacramental life of the church. 6. Reputation. Every Catholic has the right to a good name and to due process. 7. Governance. Every Catholic and every Catholic community has the right to a meaningful participation in decision-making, including the selection of leaders. 8. Participation. Every Catholic has the right and responsibility to share in the interpretation of the Gospel and church tradition. 9. Councils. Every Catholic has the right to convene and speak in assemblies where diverse voices can be heard. 10. Social justice. Every Catholic has the right and the responsibility to promote social justice in the world at large as well as within the structures of the church. -- Jerry Filteau |
More coverage from NCR's Jerry Filteau on the American Catholic Council:
Two thousand people out of 70
Two thousand people out of 70 million Catholics -- .00002 percent. Such a revolution! Old white people pining for the good old days. As Bruce Springsteen says, when we get old, all we have left are "boring stories of...glory days." Except these are not the winners....they're the whiners.
We sure can't expect 2,000
We sure can't expect 2,000 "grayhairs" to have lasting influence, even if 65% of them have Masters degrees. So what should we expect of 12 "fishermen" in an Upper Room? Or 120 cardinals in the capella Sistina?
As if all that weren't enough, how about that Jewish baby in the manger at Bethlehem? The one that Herod missed . . .
The Spirit of God blows where she will, friend. May your sails catch her holy wind.
PS -- Jus' 'cause there's snow on da roof (like gray hair!) don't mean there ain't no fire in da furnace!
Just looks like a bunch of
Just looks like a bunch of BITTER OLD LIBERALS to me. LONG LIVE POPE BENEDICT XVI!!!
Ref. Fr. Tim @gmail.com I'm
Ref. Fr. Tim @gmail.com
I'm an "old liberal" but I'm not "bitter", just disallushioned...
Vatican II offered so much hope!!
Perhaps the Faithful Remnant?
Perhaps the Faithful Remnant? That "liberal" charge is so weak!
Sadly, the ACC didn't address the issue of the MILLIONS of Catholics around the world who have voted with their feet - and they're not coming back!
The ACC failed to develop a winning strategy to achieve the reform and renewal which the vast majority of Catholics yearn for.
What about this for starters?
1. DEFUND the hierarchs so they have dwindling resources to fall back on to prop-up their politicial hegemony within the Church.
2. DISCOURAGE our children and grandchildren from taking up any ministry in the church until the priesthood is completely reformed and renewed from parish to pope.
Catholics need to imitate the courage and foresight of St. Joseph by taking Mother and Child into the Egypt of each day until the clerical "Herod's" of our time can no long menace the practice our faith and the celebration of our traditions, nor can they ever again ravage and exploit our children with impunity.
Catholics need to understand that the hierarchs are actually in a very desperate position: they're dying-off with no way to replenish their ranks. And history is not on their side. The People are actually winning if you take the long view!
Actually you are the one who
Actually you are the one who sounds bitter. I pray you are not the Fr. Tim at my church, whom I really like.
Tim, having read several of
Tim, having read several of your divisive posts over the past few months, I don't believe you're a priest at all. A priest represents the unity of the community, which is also the function of the bishop of Rome. The latter also fails when he is intent on excommunicating anyone who dares to try to speak of the mystery of God in contemporary terms (if you believe in incarnation).
Ouch to the comment about the
Ouch to the comment about the old white haired folks.
Sounds like the groupies the white haired guy in the white outfit is after.It is a sad day when experience, and history, and soul search is denigrated!
Dear Petra......yes, old
Dear Petra......yes, old white people who were once young and excited by what was happening at Vatican II, an ecumenical council where other faiths were allowed to attend and even speak for the first time, something that we felt was extremely hopeful in the very difficult years of the Cold War. Yes we thought that it was a revolution and a hopeful one at that, considering just how frightening those times were. I am one of those old white, grey haired people who supported this gathering in Detroit even though I didn't attend. I also agree with another post here that said that once this older generation whether pro or ant-Vatican II dies out, the changes will come and will come quickly. We might not see that change that we are hoping for, but we will continue to keep alive the hopes and vision of Vatican II.
Thank God for those 2000
Thank God for those 2000 wonderful people and inspiring speakers. Revolution has to start somewhere. If I was there i would have joined them. I am disappointed at the negativity of some of the above letters.
I can't help but wonder about
I can't help but wonder about the song that reminded you of, it's from the 80's, so I wonder how old you are? and I wonder whether you're white too, since I don't know alot of minority Springsteen fans...and I wonder if you would have used this reference at all if had been a white member of the E Street Band that had just passed??? I bet you're an old white, Reagan supporting "welfare queen" screaming bigot lost in the 80's.
p.s. the President's BLACK!
You prejudice against whites
You prejudice against whites Tonino? Ageist? Ever noticed how old and white the Pope is?
.00002 percent does seem like
.00002 percent does seem like a very small minority. I wonder what the percentage was when Jesus came with His ideas of reform in his church community?
Noelle
There occured a counter
There occured a counter catholic conference staged on the same weekend a few miles away at Livonia, MI. Perhaps, Petra, you didn't mention it because the attendees there were in the mid-hundreds and they were a lesser percentage of "old" people.
I have a couple of hopes for you: 1) some "glory days" stories; you might they're not at all boring. 2)you're able to come to an understanding that the primary idea behind the American Catholic Conference and its aftermath has nothing at all to do with EITHER winning or whining. 3)that your personal view of the aging in your/our midst becomes more positive/respectful as you yourself travel this journey.
Stereotypes are always wrong,
Stereotypes are always wrong, because no two people, much less 2,000, are alike. I'm 70 years old, have a demanding fulltime job as head of a diocesan agency, and participated in the American Catholic Council in Detroit (with my bishop's knowledge).
The demographics of attendees may have been influenced by finances and time. It cost me almost $1,000 for registration, plane fare, hotel, shuttle service, meals, and DVDs of the keynotes. Most educated young people have college loans to pay off and perhaps a mortgage, not to mention the expenses of daily living whether they're single or married, with or without children. Timewise, if they're working parents or caregivers, it may have been difficult to take a weekend away from their primary responsibilities.
The high energy level at the ACC belied the numbers, however. The organizers chose a logo that portrayed what so many Catholics want - a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit on our beloved Church, so the fear that is paralyzing many of its leaders will be replaced by trust in the God who dwells and acts through all of us.
Money had little to do with
Money had little to do with why young people didn't attend the conference. Every year tens of thousands of young adults spend well over $1000 to attend world youth day. Young people are searching for truth, not the relativism that the ACC promotes.
The takeaway from this is the
The takeaway from this is the demographic of the attendees. One wonders why more young people were not there. It could due to the fact that they simply could not get off work for this. It could be that they are more conservative, although I seriously doubt that. Most likely they don't consider the hierarchy relevant enough to argue with, especially on issues like gay marriage and the role of women. If that is the case, then when the current generation dies out on both sides, change will come swiftly.
A share button would have been nice here.
Or maybe the youngsters don't
Or maybe the youngsters don't care enough one way or another -- ???
The recent marriage stats (http://www.osv.com/tabid/7621/itemid/8053/Exclusive-analysis-National-Ca...) are a good indicator of the ever-decreasing disinterest in things that the church push by those who even stick around anymore.
I cannot help but wonder if
I cannot help but wonder if such stats reflect, at least in part, the poor catechesis inspired by JPII and B16 whose autocratic behaviors have alienated most Catholics. People today by and large are not going to gravitate to an institution whose main ecclesial rule has been "My way or the highway!", a variant of "Pray, pay, obey!".
Their "autocratic" behavior
Their "autocratic" behavior is not inherently problematic. What is the problematic is the situation in which totally unlearned and ignorant lay members are allowed to govern catechesis of the young. Young people are leaving the Church because they were exposed only to a spiritual and theological vacuum, one that emerged once Vatican II was hijacked by the extremists. Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI are, and succesfully so, trying to restore the Church to the vision of Vatican II.
The smart children have grown
The smart children have grown up into smart adults...who see in their own global communities wars being waged over religious beliefs. They've seen leaders of many religions, as well as leaders of nations, who are so out of touch with the real world that they have no respect for them.
My children are now college-educated, compassionate, caring adults. They care deeply about issues in the world. They care nothing about the Vatican, nor the rules they still try to impose.
In many ways, I envy them their lack of concern. Their hearts don't ache with the loss.
In my experience, the young
In my experience, the young are either 1) conservative (like myself, and I mean pre-Vatican II conservative)) or 2) They no longer care about the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church where the Primacy of the Roman See holds jurisdiction over the whole world. So it doesn't surprise me at all that hardly anyone young is there. 1) Young people reject the modernism, or 2) have fallen away entirely, many of my friends and co-workers my age have fallen into what is atheism for all practical purposes.
Young liberals don't stick around like the older ones, they just pack up and leave.
Vatican II delayed the death
Vatican II delayed the death of the Catholic Church. If it was followed it might have saved it (I doubt). B16 is speeding up the dying.
Anonymous look around you, how many young conservatives are there? You won't be able to carry on unless you draw more people in.
My son left the church because it did not answer any of his spiritual needs, as he put it "the Catholic Church is all about rules and regulations. Do this, do that"
Do you think that pomp and an ancient language will bring him back?
Also how do you know that pre-Vatican II church was so wonderful? Were you there? I can see that some young people are fascinated by Latin: ancient, mysterious.
I am concerned about the church because unless it turns around and becomes catholic, and starts to focus on Jesus instead church politics, it will go the way of the dodo bird.
Many of the young people have
Many of the young people have already left the church.
Relevance is measured by the
Relevance is measured by the hierarchy,to reject the hierarchy is to be irrelevant to the Church.Whatever the pro-same-sex-marriage youngsters do,it will not be the Roman Catholic Church....which is defined by those who continue to hold the fixed set of beliefs enunciated through the hierarchy.
I think that young Catholics
I think that young Catholics don't know what came before Vatican II, they didn't fight through all the changes like "old white folks" did. We had to push pastors to turn altars around, to face the congregation, to let normal people distribute Communion and on and on. For these young folks, the changes were all in place and accepted practice. They really have no idea of how bad things were in the pre Vatican II days.
...or how bad they're going
...or how bad they're going to become under the "restorationist" agenda of B16.
Indeed, what young person in his or her right mind would want to embrace a sick, dysfunctional Roman institution???
"Indeed, what young person in
"Indeed, what young person in his or her right mind would want to embrace a sick, dysfunctional Roman institution???"
None. Fortunately, the Church is neither.
You have a point. I lived
You have a point. I lived through that time period. But I do not think it has to be an "either - or" question, or at least, it should not have to be even though it seems to be.
The fight over the liturgy is a proxy for other things.
I think there is a place for the Tridentine Mass as offered by the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter. It should NOT be the dominant Liturgy in general use, but it has a sense of order history. In large parishes perhaps some Latin part Liturgies of some type could be offered. Whether or not to go "whole hog" with the whole Tridentine set-up including Communion rails being practical or not is another question.
BTW: I have notices that people from all language groups tend to pick up the Latin ""Agnus Dei very quickly, perhaps because it is repeated 3 times.
Any pastors reading this; try this an see- you will be stunned. Any is there anything to this worth doing? Well, I do not know, but it is an optional thing to do if all other things you are trying to do seem to not work out, and you need to see something work. It will work for whatever it is worth.
What a kindly reasonable
What a kindly reasonable response - thank you, Michael.
Two forms of Mass (Ordinary form in English and Extra-ordinary form in Latin) may be an acceptable compromise in large parishes where it's not possible for all the parishioners to know each other, at least by sight. But I live in a small English town with a small church to serve the area (Mass count 90) and with a priest who strongly prefers EF and celebrates it 6 days each week, with OF maybe two or three days, although the parish preference is for OF in English, the language of this country!
If that were all, it would be sad indeed that the parish is separated, but there is more, basically the mind-set that goes with the preference. It is strongly centralising and authoritarian, undervalues the lay members in the church so that all governance and pastoral practice is now in the control and management of the PP. For more than a decade the parish has had a service of Word and Communion on weekdays when the PP is elsewhere - he is also responsible for a smaller parish/convent in the area. The weekday Catholics used to be a cohesive and lovingly caring group (9 or 10 of us) who did much of the donkey work in the parish and presbytery. Within 3 days of his arrival 10 months ago this PP banned such services outright. So he is breaking up the "fraternity" of the core attenders.
When he is moved elsewhere (he's one of the youngest priests in the diocese) people will be older and out of practice in being "church" together. Unless he goes very soon and we get a priest who is a pastoral liturgist, or are left in charge of our deacon. At present the deacon is being steadily undermined as the priest sets out to aggregate ALL parish activity into his maw.
It's not a very happy situation.
Affordability. Younger folks
Affordability.
Younger folks are probably working hard and couldn't afford the time, travel expenses & space to go.
I'm not so young & I couldn't, although I really wanted to go. Many/most "white-haired" people are comfortably retired.
The American Catholic Council
The American Catholic Council gathering failed to recognize one of the most important problems facing the Catholic Church in the USA: the increasing gap between the rich and poor which affects "The New Evangelization". We cannot solve the problems of the New Evangelization without the help of the poor.
Cardinal Claudio Hummes gives us some direction when he states: “A servant church must have as its priority solidarity with the poor,” he said. “The faith must express itself in charity and in solidarity, which is the civil form of charity,” Hummes said. “Today more than ever, the church faces this challenge. In fact, effective solidarity with the poor, both individual persons and entire nations, is indispensable for the construction of peace. Solidarity corrects injustices, reestablishes the fundamental rights of persons and of nations, overcomes poverty and even resists the revolt that injustice provokes, eliminating the violence that is born with revolt and constructing peace.”
May I suggest a way to practice this “solidarity” here in the USA:
A “preferential option for the poor” should be maintained in our Catholic
Schools. If we find that we cannot afford to keep our schools open to the
poor, the schools should be closed and the resources used for something else
which can be kept open to the poor. We cannot allow our Church to become a
church primarily for the middle-class and rich while throwing a bone to the
poor. The priority should be given to the poor even if we have to let the
middle-class and rich fend for themselves.
Practically speaking, the Catholic Schools must close and the resources
used for “Confraternity of Christian Doctrine” and other programs which can
be kept open to the poor. Remember, the Church managed without Catholic
Schools for centuries. We can get along without them today. The essential
factor is to cultivate enough Faith to act in the Gospel Tradition, namely,
THE POOR GET PRIORITY. The rich and middle-class are welcome too. But the
poor come first. (William Horan — w.horan@comcast.net.)
Joan Chittister spoke, but
Joan Chittister spoke, but where is the transcript of her talk, please?
Joan Chittister speech and
Joan Chittister speech and all of the speakers at the American Catholic Council are available on discs. Go to the web sight and I think you will
be directed to a way to purchase them. The Council was great. It brought
together all of the smaller groups who are unhappy with Rome and the Bishops.
Yes, most of us had grey hair and most of them had higher education.
Why no young???? there were a few. Most have either left the church for lhe lack of acceptance or just could not afford to go. Something must be done or
they will be lost for ever.
Example: In Venice Diocese in Florida, our Bishop has just FIRED a wonderful
teacher because he had the nerve to report a visiting priest while saying confession
was asking young girls is they were masterbating and if they were having sex.
He is a father of two young girls. This is certainly not approprate for a priest to do when none of the girls were confessing anything close to it.
Really, do you think these girls will stay in the Church??? and what parent would not report it. He is sueing both the school and the Bishop. I hope he
wins BIG
Anonymous on Jun. 23,
Anonymous on Jun. 23, 2011.
You stated:
"Joan Chittister speech and all of the speakers at the American Catholic Council are available on discs. Go to the web sight and I think you will
be directed to a way to purchase them. The Council was great. It brought
together all of the smaller groups who are unhappy with Rome and the Bishops.
Yes, most of us had grey hair and most of them had higher education.
Why no young???? there were a few. Most have either left the church for lhe lack of acceptance or just could not afford to go. Something must be done or
they will be lost for ever.
Example: In Venice Diocese in Florida, our Bishop has just FIRED a wonderful
teacher because he had the nerve to report a visiting priest while saying confession
was asking young girls is they were masterbating and if they were having sex.
He is a father of two young girls. This is certainly not approprate for a priest to do when none of the girls were confessing anything close to it.
Really, do you think these girls will stay in the Church??? and what parent would not report it. He is sueing both the school and the Bishop. I hope he
wins BIG"
--------------------------------------------------
Your comments about Bishop Frank Dewayne come as no surprise. He is a frequent flyer (with parishioners' funds) to the Vatican. Before he became a priest, he worked with a major TV network for a few years in Moscow. He has adopted the Communist style of governance in his diocese.
Don't hold your breath waiting for the teacher to win in court. Dewayne is as slippery as a greased pig. Too bad the girls didn't run out of the confessional screaming "Pervert, Pervert"! I would hope that the parents of the girls would join the teacher in the law-suit. It would help his case more.
As far as Bishop Dewayne is concerned----how does one get rid of an entranced dictator?
The notion that the laity are
The notion that the laity are somehow the Church is false on its face. It's also false to say that the hierarchy is the Church. The Church is the community of the baptized but not all the baptized have the same role to play within the Church. The laity has neither the role of governance nor the role of ministry nor the role of teaching within the Church.
The role of the laity is to bear Christian witness to the world. If the laity were performing its function, the world would be a better place today. The laity also has the obligation to defend the faith in the woeld. Unfortunately this role today has to be performed within the Church herself because of the many false (modernist) shepherds we have in the Church.
Why do I find myself wanting
Why do I find myself wanting to go and re-read Animal Farm?
Some animals (the clergy
Some animals (the clergy class) are more equal than others.....
Well said and oh so true.
Well said and oh so true. Christ gave us the Beatitudes not a bill of rights for Catholics.
Lord have mercy.
TMR
Theresa, I don't see why The
Theresa, I don't see why The Church can't have both, surly there is room.
Thank God the role of the
Thank God the role of the laity is to bear Christian witness to the world, because if it were left to the hierarchy to bear Christian witness, we would have a very poor witness.
paulte, your theology is faulty!!!
Um his theology is straight
Um his theology is straight out of VATICAN II!
That is a stretch.
That is a stretch.
I think this council is all
I think this council is all about Christian witness. When the Episcopacy are making such horrible decisions concerning the sexual scandal and failure to protect children, sexual theology in general, the Vatican Banking scandals, to say nothing of opinions that are nothing less than misogyny and homophobia, it is time for the laity to bear witness to the truth of what has happened. Who is more appropriate to do this than this elder well educated group that has the time.
The role of the hierarchy is
The role of the hierarchy is to be leaders, teachers, and shepherds. But look what we have- old men who resist any notion of change, who cover up abuse, who teach us to discriminate against women and who allow rules to supersede charity and compassion and who protect the clerical culture.Seems to me the laity are doing a better job than the hierachy!
paulte on Jun. 22, 2011. You
paulte on Jun. 22, 2011.
You stated:
"The notion that the laity are somehow the Church is false on its face. It's also false to say that the hierarchy is the Church. The Church is the community of the baptized but not all the baptized have the same role to play within the Church. The laity has neither the role of governance nor the role of ministry nor the role of teaching within the Church.
The role of the laity is to bear Christian witness to the world. If the laity were performing its function, the world would be a better place today. The laity also has the obligation to defend the faith in the woeld. Unfortunately this role today has to be performed within the Church herself because of the many false (modernist) shepherds we have in the Church"
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Paulte----your concepts of the role of the laity is about as counterfit as a $3.00 bill! The Church is a community of the baptized---PERIOD. Jesus never stated what roles anybody plays. Christ was quite content to send Mary Magdalene to inform the Apostles that he (Christ) had risen and was going to
Galilee ahead of them.
God is able to raise up anybody, anybody to teach, anybody to be ministers and anybody to govern. Christ told the leaders of the people---that God could raise up stones to be true children of Israel. We humans keep trying to box God up and demand that God follow the rules that WE have set.
As far as your comment about the laity not having the role of teaching in the Church---that's laughable. No bishop goes into the classroom to teach children, teens, or college students. It's a well known fact, that when young adults want to study theology---they will not go to a bishop for their education. Most American bishops do not have a solid scriptural or theological background. A few do----but not the majority.
As far as the laity defending the faith in the world is concerned----the laity has had an up-hill battle all the way, considering the behavior of the clergy and the hierarchy. The lying, double-dealing, arrogant attitudes of the hierarchy (and clergy) speak to the world a much more strident and confusing message than anything the laity could say.
You're entitled to your views
You're entitled to your views but if you wish to go back to the beginning of Christianity & be only concerned with what Jesus actually said & did, well, that's already been done. It was called the Protestant Reformation. So it looks like you're in the wrong Church, please exit.
If you wish to remain in the Catholic Church then you will have to accept all the dogmas of that most holy Council of Trent which rebutted all the false notions of the Reformers. All of the canons of this council related to doctrine are infallible. None of the canons of this council were denied by VII. On the contray, that most holy Council of Trent is frequently referenced in the foot notes of VII.
Buy the book, "The canons & Decrees of the Council of Trent." After you read it if you have any questions, I will answer them for you based upon the spiritual work of mercy which says, "Instruct the Ignorant."
Paul, your thoughts betray
Paul, your thoughts betray a lack of scriptural and theological background. Persons who pontificate about the role of the laity/hierarchy and lack the background are idiots.
To your credit this seems to
To your credit this seems to be an accurate and fair report on this meeting. The most telling parts of this report are:
"It appeared that well over half the participants were 65 or older and most of the rest were at least 50. There was only a small scattering of those in their 20s, 30s or 40s. Demographic figures the council organizers reported from pre-meeting listening sessions across the country over the two years leading up to the Detroit meeting seemed to support this observation.
Detroit participants were also overwhelmingly white, with only a tiny black and Hispanic presence."
This is a meeting of old white hippies. They and their movement will literally die off. If you want to see the future of the Church and see young diverse people you can visit new Orthodox groups of women religious, new seminarians, or visit faithful orthodox parish's and diocese.
I rarely agree with anything Matthew Fox has to say, but I agree with him on this point:
"•Matthew Fox, a former Catholic Dominican priest who became an Episcopal priest in 1994 rather than submit to silencing by the Vatican after his writings on spirituality challenged Catholic teachings on original sin. Fox described the Vatican as in schism from the real church and urged council participants to join him in ignoring edicts from Rome and to follow Christ on their own."
Staying inside the Church as a heretical fifth columnist is an act totally lacking in integrity. If you can't swear agreement to the Catechism of the Catholic Church then Fox is exactly right a person with integrity would leave.
What a funny thing to want
What a funny thing to want people to swear agreement with, a multi-hundred page catechism.
Why don't you at list stick to the creeds and the conciliar decrees rather than some source for text book writers which is all the CCC claims for itself, a book put together by committee and not anywhere near the standing of the documents of the Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican to which many of us theologically well educated white boomers had kept the faith.
I used the Catechism because
I used the Catechism because that is what converts are asked to do when they enter the Church at the Easter Vigil.
Um I seriously doubt many of
Um I seriously doubt many of the attendees at this failure have actually read any of the documents of Vatican II
There is a Church that has
There is a Church that has all this "reform." It's called the Episcopalian Church. Why do these "reformers" have to mess with 2000 years of tradition and dogma. It isn't broken, and those of us who want to remain true to Chrit's Church don't want any of this nonsense.
Sananto Catholic and others,
Sananto Catholic and others, yes, there is another ecclesial group that has roots in early Christianity, respects catholic tradition, follows apostolic succession and engages in ecumenism...it's called The Old Catholics, and I am a validly ordained woman in the Ecumenical Catholic Communion within the Old Catholics lineage serving Holy Spirit Catholic Community in our 5th year. All are truly welcome!
Many of these reforms were
Many of these reforms were advocated to us by our bishops and many taught to us by an Ecumenical Council. The RCC is broken. It's machinery is blocked by Roman reactionaries who have refused to carry out what the Church has officially taught on liturgy, collegiality, ecclesiology. We old whiners with advanced degrees in such subjects know the differences between what the Council taught and what ROTRers cherry pick from it which reflect the previous situation which needed change. The same problems still need changing for the good of the RCC. Leave other denominations out of the discussion. The problems of the RCC are sufficient to themselves.
"It's machinery is blocked by
"It's machinery is blocked by Roman reactionaries who have refused to carry out what the Church has officially taught on liturgy, collegiality, ecclesiology."
For example? This claim cannot be made without further elaboration.
Is this for real?? Not worth
Is this for real?? Not worth commenting.
Organizations like this are
Organizations like this are so liberal that they alienate any conservative Catholics who also view as horrendous the closing of viable parishes and sexual abuse. At any rate, one only has to look back at the 1970s and 1980s and see that the "Vatican II" bishops and priests were just as, if not more, corrupt than what had come before them. Poster-boy Vatican II bishops like John Quinn, Weakland, and others were closing churches and covering up sexual abuse. The Vatican II generation had an opportunity to clean up the Church but failed absolutely miserably. Now these aging dinosaurs think that rehashing the same-old nonsense is actually going to do something. It's a joke, really. Nobody doubts that the Church needs to be reformed, but it's certainly not in the way that these old fogeys envision.
Poster-boy Vatican II bishops
Poster-boy Vatican II bishops like John Quinn, Weakland, and others were closing churches and covering up sexual abuse.
Now we have "Poster-boy" neo-orthodox bishops like Robert Finn, William Lori, Justin Rigali, et. al. closing churches and covering up sexual abuse. While they try to browbeat politicians using the Eucharist as a club (talk about liturgical abuse!) and excommunicate, excommunicate, excommunicate right and left, substituting the bull-whip for the shepherd's crook.
There's nothing in the street
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Is now the parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight
Same story, different scoundrels.
So how would you young people
So how would you young people envision it?
Thanks are owed to those who
Thanks are owed to those who convened this conference and those who participated....
I am so impressed with the
I am so impressed with the Council's statement of the Rights and Responsibilities
of all Catholics and don't find the least thing in it that could possibly be called blatantly "radical," though, of course, the hierarchy will not like the idea of Catholics claiming to have a right to any of these things, I suppose. And, in my mind, that just boils down to a complete and total lack of respect for all members of the Church - with the exception of each other. I might feel a wee bit better, since members of the hierarchy clearly want to be despots, if they would at least make a flying pass at being "benevolent" despots. But I'm not really sure about that.
I totally agree with this
I totally agree with this declaration. It is about time that the reform of the church had a voice and a statement. Many things are brought out in this article that I was aware of, but some that I was not aware of. It is thanks to the NCR that this information is being circulated. I want to express my gratitude to Jerry Filteau for posting this column. I'm sure that these are brave souls in Detroit to take on the Vatican, and I applaud them.
Thank you Jerry for an fine
Thank you Jerry for an fine ecapsulated report on the conference. We (dear wife and I) also do not have the gift no bilocation and could not attend most of the breakout sessions.
Seems to me that most of us
Seems to me that most of us know all of this already. Two days of focus on what's wrong would have been psychologically and spiritually draining for me. I'm glad I did not attend.
Sigh. The Return of Call to
Sigh. The Return of Call to Action.
Do we not have enough
Do we not have enough protestants now. We are trying to get them back into The Church
Thank you to all who
Thank you to all who participated in and supported this. It gives hope to those of us in other parts of the Church that all is not lost to the narrow male so-called patriarchs.
Thank you for such a clear
Thank you for such a clear impression of that gathering. I participated in a limited listening session in a very small community in the Northwest and was longing to hear how the gathering spoke out about all our concerns.
I am Catholic and want to be Catholic but find it very difficult to participate in the current climate. And I am also one of those who happens to have a Masters degree, in Pastoral Studies.
Please continue to give us insights that will continue to emerge from this gathering.
I comment about this part of
I comment about this part of your report :
Matthew Fox, a former Catholic Dominican priest who became an Episcopal priest in 1994 rather than submit to silencing by the Vatican after his writings on spirituality challenged Catholic teachings on original sin. Fox described the Vatican as in schism from the real church and urged council participants to join him in ignoring edicts from Rome and to follow Christ on their own.
My comment is this : "How can a suposedly Catholic Council invite as a speaker somebody who has left the Church and know as an iconoclastic renegate who is always attacking the Church. Was the aim of the "council" to encourage faithful
to emulate his stance and join him in his betrayal ?
To gain credibility, the Council must remain loyal to the Church of Christ.
Yours,
Bernard
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