Why I still call myself a Catholic

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It’s the question I get more than any other: Do you still consider yourself a Catholic?

It’s the critique I most frequently receive on this blog site: Just leave the church if you’re so unhappy.

Spending seven years at a Protestant divinity school, first as a student and later as an employee, enriched and expanded my understanding of what it means to be Catholic. Before arriving at graduate school, I grew up on Long Island in an Italian Catholic family that rarely went to church. Though I went to religious instruction, received the sacraments with the rest of the girls and boys, and attended church on the big feast days, the influence of the institutional church (involvement in parish life, connections with priests and nuns) was distant at best.

Yet, even without going to church much, my religious worldview was thoroughly Catholic. I grew up surrounded by my grandmother’s novenas and rosaries, my grandfather’s stories about Jesus, and many powerful images of the nativity, the Last Supper, Mary, St. Michael the Archangel, and, of course, the Infant of Prague. Hard as this may be to believe, I did not meet a Protestant until I was in my early twenties. Now and then we drove by the exterior one of those mysterious, non-Catholic church buildings. No one I knew went there. We wondered what went on inside of that building.

The Protestants that I eventually met were students and teachers at a divinity school, so they were pretty serious. There were 40 different varieties of them: Episcopal, Lutheran, Presbyterian, UCC, and then more foreign types, like Reformed church, Assemblies of God, church of the Nazarene, even Mennonites. Less than a month into taking classes, worshipping, and eating meals with these folks, I realized that something was different. It wasn’t the obvious things, like that they didn’t have a pope or a daily Eucharist, but something much deeper, more nuanced that differentiated us.

After talking with a few Catholic professors, I realized that a key difference was in our vision, more specifically the way in which we understood human nature and the power of grace. The distinction could be traced all the way back to the Reformation. The key theological concept that distinguished the Catholic view from the Calvinist view was in the conception of the relationship between grace and nature. For the Calvinist, humanity is sinful and fallen, and God saves human beings in spite of themselves. For the Catholic, grace perfects nature. God redeems us only from our sinfulness, not from who we are, because we are intrinsically God’s beloved children. For Catholics, there is a dynamic relationship with God, and human beings cooperate in their own transformation. Paradoxically, Catholic guilt is not nearly as heavy as Protestant guilt!

This essential distinction grounds so much of the Catholic theological tradition. The notion that grace perfects nature forms the basis for the uniquely Catholic idea that all finite things in creation are capable of revealing truths about what is infinite or eternal. Catholics have a sacramental view of the world. That is, for a Catholic, all of creation is good, and everything in our finite world can be a vessel of God’s presence and God’s transforming grace. This idea provides the foundation for Catholicism’s rich mysticism and spirituality, its unparalleled social justice doctrine, its care of the poor, and its exquisite legacy of artists and writers.

These traditions keep me calling myself Catholic. But I separate the Catholic tradition from the institutional church, namely its governing body. Because I see so much harm done to women, to those dying from the AIDS pandemic, to American nuns under scrutiny, to victims of pedophilia, to divorced people, to women who have had abortions, and to gays and lesbians. I do not currently trust that the hierarchy of the church is acting with integrity toward the people of God. I struggle to believe that the hierarchy’s intentions are centered in the desire to be a beacon of the healing, reconciling, challenging love of God. Rather, I wonder if they aren’t motivated instead by the drive toward self-preservation rooted in the fear of engaging the people of God where they are in all of their very real struggles and questions.

For me, there is nothing to “leave.” I cannot leave my Catholic tradition any more than I can leave my Italian tradition, which also formed my vision and imagination, my way of seeing the world, my way of relating to others. One can argue that I have left the Catholic church since I no longer accept the authority of the hierarchy. However, I feel equally left behind by the institution. As a woman and lesbian, I have no voice in this institution, and I am denied the ability to make a substantive contribution to it. Rather than speaking about leaving the church, I believe is time to call the institutional church to accountability for how many people it has left behind.

Unlike many of those fighting for reform in the Catholic church, I’m not aiming to “take back my church.” I’m not sure that the institution and its endless tomes of rules, its privileged priesthood, and its propensity for uninviting people from the Eucharistic table is something worth re-inheriting because I’m not convinced these functions were ever conceived or practiced with God-centered intentions.

I don’t wish to reclaim this church, nor do I feel like I have to in order to call myself Catholic. Rather, I am attempting to take all of the riches of the Catholic tradition with me and share them with others in the hope of finding communities that share this common Catholic vision: that we are all unequivocally called to have a preferential option for the poor, that contemplative prayer and meditation is a path to greater wholeness, and that ritual, symbol, image and word can make real the life-giving power of God’s love in our world.

Jamie Manson received her master of divinity degree from Yale Divinity School where she studied Catholic theology, personal commitments and sexual ethics with Mercy Sr. Margaret Farley. She is the former editor in chief of the Yale magazine Reflections, and currently serves as director of Social Justice Ministries at Jan Hus Presbyterian Church, working primarily with New York City’s homeless and poor populations. She is a member of the national board of the Women’s Ordination Conference.

The more I read this "Young

The more I read this "Young Voices" column, the more convinced I am that Catholic Education has failed miserably in America. There is no sense of the supernatural, and affectation seems have replaced it. Table stakes for a Catholic is the keeping of the commandments (just listen to any daily reading this Easter Season) and this is not respected in the actions and personal lives of some of the "Young Voices" contributors. Christ is real - Jesus is God come in the Flesh and his Church was established personally by Christ. Furthermore, among the most DEFINITIVE statements made in the documents of Vatican II is the fact that a person, having full knowledge that the Catholic Church was established by Christ who leaves the Catholic Church cannot be saved. Believe me, I am no fundamentalist! But the truth must be proclaimed in Season and out of Season. I wish no one ill, however I am on the side of Christ and His Church. For Christ is risen! Alleluia! Alleluia!

Didn't you read the article?

Didn't you read the article? As she says, she can't leave because it is part of her and no other will satisfy as this church does. On the other hand, nothing can hurt as much as the one you love that keeps you at arms length.

If you don't like the column,

If you don't like the column, stop reading it. Simple as that.

Furthermore, among the most

Furthermore, among the most DEFINITIVE statements made in the documents of Vatican II is the fact that a person, having full knowledge that the Catholic Church was established by Christ who leaves the Catholic Church cannot be saved

Can you please define what full knowledge in the statement means ? Is it something like you hear someone told you to be so ? or is it something like you know it to be true in your heart and mind, because you are already reconcile the truth of that statement in your faith and reason ?

Let Jesus-God come in the

Let Jesus-God come in the flesh be the judge. For Christ is risen! Alleluia! Alleluia!

The more I read these young

The more I read these young people, the more hope I have! What a beautiful essay. Snowie, you seem to condemn so many whom you have never met. This beautiful essay explains how so many seekers can and do remain Catholic. They are Catholic inspite of the fearful dogmatists in our midst. They are loving inspite of the condemnations of the fundamentalists in our mist. They are Catholic inspite of the poor leadership of the Episcopacy. They have a deep sense of what Vatican II was all about. They learned by being seekers of truth not followers of poor leadership. Lets US not judge them, as God alone can judge each one of us. There will be many surprises!

Peace and understanding,
R. Dennis Porch, MD

The more I read articles like

The more I read articles like this (and comments like yours Doctor) the more I want to sue the National Catholic Reporter for 'bearing false witness' in a church court.

When will the grey-haired, aging hippies (and their VERY few young followers) get the point!??!?! YOUNG PEOPLE LOVE THE CHURCH!!!! We LOVE THE POPE!!!! Your "revolution" is LONG GONE and the REAL young people of the Church will bring dynamic, rich, orthodoxy back after having it supressed by folks like you for the past 40 years!

Moderatetwentysomething,

Moderatetwentysomething, please explain to me how your generation is going to save the Church when some 75% of you have taken a hike out of it. The Church you are saving apparently feels the need to reduce itself to irrelevance and impotency and then loudly proclaim this is what Jesus wants.

Lets be honest, this is really the Church you want.

Long before you came on the scene to educate us 'blue haired hippies', we were actually doing something about serious issues. Our ground work in racial equality is precisely why Barack Obama could be elected and become the orthodox 'anti christ'.

By all means, bring back your rich orthodoxy. And by the way, it's going to take a lot of RICH orthodox Catholics to sustain your imperial hierarchy and it's equally ostentatious papacy when you have finally purged the laity to those who are worthy of your brand of salvation. In the interests of your future church, it would serve you well to get out of theology and into banking.

And it is because of your

And it is because of your generation that 75% of my generation doesn't have faith. You did not hand it on. You either abandoned it completely or handed on something that may have seemed on the surface to be Catholic but is anything but. Your religious education programs are a joke. Kids can't name the seven sacraments or state anything about the Eucharist, but they can make nice felt banners and say "Jesus loves us and lets us do whatever we want."

Dear Moderate Catholic, Your

Dear Moderate Catholic,

Your words and attitude are surely not moderate at all. They sound more like the zealot fundamentalists that are causing a deadening of the Church to authenticity and to simple decency! Sooooo you want to sue everyone that disagrees with the disastrous leadership when in fact the true People of God MUST correct that very leadership. In truth, the good doctor seems much more humane and Christlike than your form of zealotry.

Loyalty to the Holy Father

Loyalty to the Holy Father and the historic teachings of the Church is not zealotry, it is Catholicism, the same Catholicsm that inspired countless saints from St. Mary Magdalen to Bl. Mother Teresa.

Dear Snowdrop, you believe

Dear Snowdrop, you believe that Jesus was God, which is true enough, but do you believe he was also truly and fully human, born in the natural course of human evolution like all of us? My sense is that you are so enamoured of the "supernatural" (whatever you mean by such -- though I suppose it means you still believe, like most fundamntalists, that Jesus, biologically, was miraculously conceived of a woman who remained a biological virgin even after Jesus' birth) that you have almost no grasp of the meaning - for humans - of the incarnation, of God in action in this world through and by means of human beings, including loving and questioning human beings such as Jamie. I would ask you to remember that Jesus taught that we are saved, not because we have an intellectually correct belief system, but because we love others as fully and completely and as compassionately and nonjudgmentally as the Father loves Jesus and us all, Jamie included. (And I would suggest that your intellectual/magical belief system, upon which you are apparently relying for salvation, may be entirely indefensible in terms of objective truth.)

Dear Joseph, I find it

Dear Joseph, I find it peculiar that you are willing to believe something a supernatural concept such as Jesus being Divine, yet you find His virgin birth to be a dogma of ignorance that is promulgated by the "fundamentalists." In the words of St. Augustine, "Tell us straight out that you do not believe in the Gospel of Christ; for you believe what you want in the Gospel and disbelieve what you want. You believe in yourself rather than in the Gospel."

WELL SAID, SNOWDROP!!!

WELL SAID, SNOWDROP!!! BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"That is, for a Catholic, all

"That is, for a Catholic, all of creation is good, and everything in our finite world can be a vessel of God’s presence and God’s transforming grace."

FYI to the hierarchy and conservatives of the Church: This INCLUDES women and gay people. Stop discriminating against your flock and perhaps more of them will turn back and start paying attention to you again.

"One can argue that I have

"One can argue that I have left the Catholic church since I no longer accept the authority of the hierarchy. However, I feel equally left behind by the institution."

Thank you for this article, Jamie. I could not agree more. You have put into words the very struggle I have been having within myself. (I'm a late 20-something Catholic as well.) My mother often advises me to separate the catholic church (the faith) from what she calls the "hierarchy-malarchy." It seems you have found a way to do that. Hopefully I will someday as well.

It is more than hard to

It is more than hard to accept the current hierarchy as they lack so much authenticity and integrity! I think we the People of God would be very remiss to accept the current Bishops lack of listening to the Spirit as he speaks to so many scientists, philosophers and theologians. The Bishops reject these men and women out of fear that they will loose power and authority, but they are really rejecting the revelations of the Holy Spirit and of course have made themselves irrelevant.

Bravo Jaimie and thank you.

Bravo Jaimie and thank you.

I am sure that many people, like me, will feel that you are speaking for them. You are certainly speaking for me. I do feel left by the hierarchy. I find it is erring on the side of frightened orthodoxy and no longer knowing how to follow Jesus' Way. And yes there are many riches in the Catholic tradition to take with oneself.

By excluding so many people from the pews, the hierarchy is excluding itself. But too much time is spent on what they do and say. Life and Jesus are more and more somewhere else.

Thanks again, Jamie.

As long as you're being

As long as you're being distrustful of the "church hierarchy". Let me voice my distrust of the "young voices". I think you are out to destroy the Church, you hate the sacred institutions of marriage, pregnancy, motherhood, and the Catholic faith. I've seen what you have done to those who try to hold on to these things, and hold on to the traditions of the Church. These people are constantly looked upon as being backward, blindly obedient, or suffering from some psychological disorder. While you seem to view homosexuality, abortion and other deviant behaviors as virtues that are the future of the church.

Just as your family has left Italy yet you still refer to yourself as Italian. You have long ago left Catholicism despite what you'd like to think.

So has everyone that writes

So has everyone that writes as one of the Young Voices now declared his/her homosexuality?

Thanks, your comment gave me

Thanks, your comment gave me a laugh. Yet, I think it is great that so many young homosexuals are finding a way to be a witness of how God's love and grace is operating in The Church. At one time society and all of the churches forced gay and lesbians to chose between a spiritual life or a sexual life. Clearly this did a lot of damage to many and denied them the joy of a spiritual relationship with Christ. To see gays and lesbians reject this damaging delemma, gives hope where once there was none. Yes, the holy spirit is operating!

Jamie, Thanks for a great

Jamie,

Thanks for a great post !

I'm not sure that as a woman and lesbian, you have no voice in this institution; because you are expressing that voice in this column !

I am convinced that the hierarchy’s intentions ARE INDEED centered in the desire to be a beacon of the healing, reconciling, challenging love of God. They just have a different view on how best to do that and the centre of all large organisations tends to be inherently very conservative. Change tends to come from the margins, not the institutional centre.

You are indeed still Catholic.

Please stay so, for otherwise the rest of us will be the poorer without you.

I know it is hard and frustrating picking up your cross and carrying it but I do sense that is part of God's plan for you, for us, and for the Church.

God Bless

Jamie, thanks for your

Jamie, thanks for your thoughts on a question I encounter and ponder quite often myself. I am very sympathetic to your response, as well. I wonder, however, if grouping the "privileged priesthood" with "the institution" is really fair, or true to your experience as a Catholic. I suggest this because I know many incredible compassionate priests who would agree with you about the harm that the institution's positions and actions have caused Catholic people all over the world. These good ordained people are a part of the "Catholic institutional hierarchy" too, so I hesitate to essentialize the priesthood according to the harm caused by a small, loud and influential minority of priests. When you criticize the institution and its hierarchy, I am sure you mean only certain members--not all of them? Am I correct? Or are you suggesting that priests are guilty by association with this hierarchical system?

Ithink male priests are

Ithink male priests are guilty by association with this hierarchial system. What exactly are they doing as individuals to change the system? It seems that many of them are willing to talk about injustices, especially discrimination against women, in private but not in public or with the leadership of their communities. I used to think or at least wanted to believe that it was a "small, loud and influential minority" that supported this unhealthy system, but my recent interactions show me that it is much larger than I thought. Fr. Roy Bourgeouis is one that I can see is willing to publically stand up for what is right - but can't say I've met many others at the parish level in my Midwest area.

Those are the very same

Those are the very same reasons why I still call myself a Catholic. Thank you for having the courage to share.

I feel the same way. I

I feel the same way. I remember attending Mass with my greatgrandmother and walking with her as she walked the stations of the cross. This is same church were my aunts and uncles married and where we were all baptised. Considering the way we were raised I reall don't know where the Catholic starts or ends...I couldn't stop being Catholic if I wanted to...

I agree! Thanks for your

I agree! Thanks for your passionate concern for others and for your desire to share what you have found rich and valuable with others. The Catholic Church needs people like you!

As a married Catholic priest,

As a married Catholic priest, I believe that Jamie is a Catholic in the truest sense of the word. She has captured the essence of what theology is all about --an understanding of Jesus's redemptive love for all mankind and God the Father's creative purpose, to make us all in His image and despite our failings to provide His Spirit in all of our endeavors.

I couldn't agree more with her interpretation of the Church as all God's people, especially the poor, the abused and the least in the world's eyes, and not the institution with its dogma and moral judgement.

That is why I too, Jamie, remain Catholic and a priest!!

Key difference is in our

Key difference is in our vision...
Perhaps with current pope we are become Calvinists???

Brava Jamie! A thoroughly

Brava Jamie! A thoroughly sophisticated and wise assessment for which I thank you. There's only one small flaw, from my point of view: pedophilia is simply a sexual attraction to children; pederasty is the act of molestation. I learned the difference by making the same error years ago and being smartly corrected.

This is interesting.Lines of

This is interesting.Lines of division in Christs Church started way back in the times of Paul." I belong to Appolos,Peter,Paul..was an item that Paul rebuked early Christians for.But it seems we all have failed the test to this age.
The problem with many Christians is that they do not understand grace and they do not understand their enemy.Jesus gave us power over the enemy but we are deceived into thinking that other denominations are our enemy.A house divided has thus failed to stand against the enemy.But Jesus is merciful to us.
Iam humbled to know that Jesus commissioned me and all others to go out into the world and make disciples for him.Not to make Catholics or Protestants!!!
ARE WE DISCIPLES OF CHRIST?

Finaly..IAM PROUD TO BELONG TO CHRIST!!

I'm going to send this to

I'm going to send this to every catholic feminist who struggles to explain why she's "still catholic" that I know. thank you, again, for putting into words my deepest beliefs. I look forward to your columns!

I just had to save this to

I just had to save this to share with my sisters. One of them gets her spiritual side filled by a Presbyterian prayer group yet she says she can't leave the church. You gave such a good explanation. Hang in there - even if it's just a toe in the door. We need your voice. You see, some of us know what you know but we didn't get the education and so aren't in your position of being able to be heard. Your ministry must be to speak for us. Ministry always comes with a burden. Thankyou.

But, you see, you cannot

But, you see, you cannot distinguish between the Church and its hierarchy. The bishops, priests and deacons rae members of the People of God just as laity is, and they exercise a specific and important, nay necessary, ministry in the Church. Just as there is no distinction between Christ (the Head) and the Church (His Body), so there is no distinction between the Church and the hierarchy. We make a mistake when we assume otherwise.

As to your not being able to make a significant contribution, that is clearly false. You care for the poor and homeless. What greater contribution is there than to care for the least of our brothers and sisters? This is the same contribution Blessed Mother Teresa made. Perhaps you mean that you are not able to be a priest? Not able to become a member of the hierarchy? Well, I am not a priest nor a deacon nor a bishop. Does this mean that I cannot make a contribution to the Church? Nonsense.

Each of us has our calling. Each of us has our mission in the Church. The challenge is to accept the calling as it is, not the calling we wish it would be, and to be who Christ wishes us to be. But, it is important to remember, Christ speaks to the world through His Church. Thus, He does not call people to priesthood who cannot be ordained priests. He calls only to that ministry for which we are equipped, for which the Church is in need.

Cint, What you say sounds

Cint,

What you say sounds Catholic, yet it does not meet the simple test of reality. Nor does it meet the simple Jesus of the greatest part of the New Testament, The Sermon on the Mount.

The People of God must demand integrity from each cleric no matter the rank. We simply are not getting that and as followers of Christ, the People of God must demand much more honesty, and integrity from the priests and their administrators. Most of the People of God take no oath of obedience to any cleric and any seeker of truth would be foolish to make this oath in the current cultish atmosphere of the Episcopacy. Perhaps this is a lesson that the newly ordained will learn the hard way!

Peace and understanding,
R. Dennis Porch, MD

Jamie - thanks again for a

Jamie - thanks again for a beautiful reflection! Likewise, it is the unique perspective of our Catholic tradition that humanity is created in the image and likeness of the Divine, that we were declared good, that through grace we are drawn ever closer to that image, is what makes me unable to walk away from the church. I would always walk out of my Christian Anthropology course, which focused on the Catholic understanding of human nature and grace, practically walking on air, inspired by the richness and goodness of our tradition. I'll be sharing this with my Protestant colleagues who I'll be visiting next week when they quiz me on why I stay Catholic!

I am amazed over and over

I am amazed over and over again when I read Jamie's article that this young woman can mend wounds I have from being steeped in the Catholic tradition for over 50 years.

How can someone so young in years have such immeasurable Wisdom?

She just helped me move beyond one of the biggest hurdles I have had by revealing what we can let go of and what we should keep in our Catholic tradition.

Thank you Jamie .

Bravo! Here's one Catholic

Bravo! Here's one Catholic finishing a master's in theology who is happy to see you still identifying as Catholic! We not only want, we NEED different points of view if we are to survive.

Jamie, thank you so much. I

Jamie, thank you so much. I applaud your candor and courage. Currently, I am a student at a non-Catholic seminary and often face being the only person of Catholic heritage, tradition, and practice in the classroom. I am having a similar experienced to yours, especially the points of difference I often encounter. However, I do have some fellow students who embrace that "grace perfects nature" and live life sacramentally, even though they are not Catholic. These students, like me, are in seminary as a second career after having pursued other career paths until such time as we could not say "no" to our God any longer.

Anyway, yes, Catholicism remains in my being, even though I left the Roman institutional church twice: the first time for 7 years and this time, I will remain gone. I know many who will say "good riddance" but what they don't understand is my Catholicism is "in" me. I remain Catholic whether I attend, participate in, or embrace the institutional hierarchy, that despite all the good, continues to create emotionally unsafe environments for many people who live in the margins. Jesus lived a life that exemplified a "reversal of values" of the current day. I wonder what "reversal of values" Jesus would live out today?

Thank you again!

Oh NCR! Why didnt you just

Oh NCR!

Why didnt you just say, "We have managed to find a young Catholic who disagrees with every Church teaching that doesnt conform to the modern world." Then i wouldnt have needed to read the whole thing?

Im a young Catholic, 24 years old. I agree with what the Church teaches and have gone through a long thought out process in order to do that, coming into the Church disagreeing with many of the same issues this young woman disagrees with. I also have a B.A in Theology and currently doing further Philosophy studies. I believe in an all-male celibate priesthood, that Humanae Vitae was a prophetic document, and that Benedict and John Paul II are two of the most exciting Popes in recent history. However, i wont be holding my breath waiting for NCR to call me for an article!!

I love my Church as it is, although i dont think she is perfect. i think one has to ask the question, being part of the Church is like having a girlfriend or boyfriend. If someone asks me about a girlfriend im in a relationship with, and i say 'Oh i love her, she picks her nails sometimes, and in the past we have had one or two arguments, but i still love her to bits", then people will probably say "awwww, thats nice."

But if i say "Well i hate her face, i hate how she acts, i hate her beliefs on sex, on political issues, she doesn't let me speak, she is violent, racist and hates men. But Im still with her, because once upon a time, when she was very young she used to be quite likeable, but shes turned into a monster since she hit 20." Then people would say....."Adam.....why are you with her?"

I apply the same logic here. Its not that i want people to leave the Church, I just think- When you clearly disagree on so many issues so strongly (and i bet there are more lurking underneath, papal infalibility for instance? If she rejects Church statements does she reject the Chalcedonian definition that said our Lord was fully God and fully man? Virginity of Our Lady I dont know but i ask.) you are expecting the Church to change, not one or two minor issues, but on EVERYTHING!! Surely one must see a problem there?

Adam, I too am a young

Adam, I too am a young Catholic (though not quite as young as you at 27 years old), and I too believe in an all-male celibate priesthood, that Humanae Vitae was a prophetic document, and that Benedict and John Paul II are two of the most exciting Popes in recent history.
In 27 years, I have seen the destruction (in my life and the life of my contemporaries) caused by pre-marital sex, abortion, same sex attraction, divorce, infidelity, and a whole host of other sins that "progressive" Catholics are striving to get the Church to overlook or accept.
The Church is not perfect, but in all Her "backwards" ways (for example asking her followers to remain pure before marriage and not tear apart babies in their mother's wombs), She is certainly the best vehicle for leading people to Heaven.
If you don't believe in Her, you are NOT Catholic. It doesn't matter how many rosaries or novenas you admire.

Adam, the question is not why Ms. Manson is still so dilluted to think that she is Catholic.
The more important question is why in the world we bother to read the National Catholic Reporter?

Sally, if you understood the

Sally, if you understood the Church's teachings that you proclaim to love, then you would also know that blaming yours and your peers sinful indescretions on progressive Catholics is unacceptable. In the end they are your sins and your choices. There are no excuses.

A couple of questions: - How

A couple of questions:
- How is the Church causing harm "to women, to those dying from the AIDS pandemic, to American nuns under scrutiny, to victims of pedophilia, to divorced people, to women who have had abortions, and to gays and lesbians?"

- How is the author, "As a woman and lesbian" denied a "voice in this institution" and "denied the ability to make a substantive contribution to it?"

Note for full disclosure: -

Note for full disclosure:
- while Mr Lovejoy was validly ordained, he is no longer licitly exercising his priestly duties. His self-reference as a "Catholic priest" is misleading.

Once a Priest always a

Once a Priest always a priest! Laitization does not take away ordination. These men can hear confessions in an emergency and in fact could be reinstated as active pastors if the Church were not so vindictive and stubborn. No, this priest, is not deceptive, the real deceptive ones are in our hierarchy and those that actively support deception!

Karen, Yes, once a priest,

Karen,
Yes, once a priest, always a priest. But I'm willing to bet that Mr Lovejoy and those within his organization have never been laicized. If they have been, then they cannot licitly carry out priestly sacramental duties.
If they have not been laicized, then there are deeper, spiritual issues.

I'm sorry you feel that the Church is being "vindictive and stubborn." Perhaps you feel Christ was being "vindictive and stubborn" when he told the woman caught in adultery, "go, and sin no more."

Mr Lovejoy cannot present himself as a Catholic priest any more than I can present myself as a high school student: sure, I was one at one time, but I left that, just as Mr Lovejoy left the active Catholic priesthood.

Dear Chris, During ordination

Dear Chris,

During ordination it is said, "you are now a priest forever." It does not matter if he was laitized or not, he IS a priest forever. Christ was never vindictive. Some though who take God's place in the judgment of others, be they ordained priests, Bishops or those who took the equally holy path as laity, those that make such Godly judgments are the vindictive ones. Yes indeed may we all, "go and sin no more."

For an adult, only one reason

For an adult, only one reason to be Catholic exists; because it's true.

This isn’t that hard. The law of non-contradiction says a thing cannot be something and not be something at the same time. By definition, someone who claims to be a member of group of believers is claiming to adhere to the beliefs of the group. One must assent to the beliefs - that’s why the Creed is recited aloud every Sunday in the Mass. Someone cannot legitimately claim to be Catholic and claim to not adhere to the beliefs of the Church. To do so is to be a liar – out loud – every Mass.

Now that doesn't mean one’s actions must always be in perfect adherence to the Church -- it's a journey, not a destination. The Church is not a fashion runway for the display of perfect spiritual models, but a hospital for the healing of repentant sinners. That’s why we can go to the sacrament of Confession over and over and over.

One has to approach it by accepting the beliefs are true -- that one is a sinner in need of repentance, forgiveness, and conversion and that Jesus Christ established a Church with the authority to preach, teach and sanctify the world until His return. It is hypocritical to believe what the Church believes is false, yet to claim one is a member of that very Church.

It’s disingenuous to say one does not accept the teachings of the Church, but one just can't leave because, whatever -- feeling comfort in the ritual, then one is in cognitive dissonance, and so on. If one is not repentant, how can one heal?

Manson can call herself a

Manson can call herself a cheeseburger if she wants to, it doesn't make her one. Same applies to being Catholic. You are or you aren't. I agree with the poster below me - catechesis has been a miserable failure for decades. Now with the left-wingers dying off, Holy Mother Church is making a decided turn away from the cafeteria. Thanks be to God. All things work to His glory. And I'm sure that some of the columnists here will experience a conversion. I hope Manson does not receive the Eucharist, because it sure doesn't sound like she believes in the Real Presence.

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! What a heavenly young woman you are!

Thank you for your eloquent

Thank you for your eloquent presentation of a very complicated issue. It means many things to be Catholic. Hold on to the beauty of your faith and struggle with the determination of the saints to uphold that which is of God. The rest, like all the forgotten clerics and bishops of the past.

Jamie, You are as Catholic as

Jamie, You are as Catholic as any of the hierarchy. Being a CATHOLIC is accepting the teachings of Christespecially His Great commandments; "Love the Lord, your God, with your whole heart, mind, sould and being and the second is like unto it, Love your neighbor as you love yourself" or as it is stated in another part of scripture; "Love one another as I have loved You"
The Roman Church is not the only "ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH"
all the denominations that can trace their roots and line of succession back to the apostles like The Old Catholics, The Reformed Catholic Church of New England which I am a priest in and whose line of succession is through the Duarte Costa line and Old Catholics. Our liturgies, sacraments, feast day etc are exactly the same as Rome but we believe in married priests, woman priests and same sex holy unions.

Thank you for claiming what

Thank you for claiming what is true for you in your church and for holding onto that truth. Your view is so inclusive and loving and it speaks to the heart of what I was taught in my church--compassion, love,mystery,symbol. I believe we have been given those tools to help others draw near to God. Thank you for doing just that by your life and your work and your faith.

Sincerely,

Bridget Houston Hyde

Jamie You about said it. And

Jamie
You about said it. And that is what I why, although I call myself catholic, am searching for another church that welcomes all people as they are.

We who believe the Church's

We who believe the Church's teachings, do understand the feelings, the hurt, the frustrations of those who cannot successfully force the Church to change her teachings in order to accommodate them, their wishes, their fondest desires. We likewise understand their ability to sweepingly condemn the Institutional Church, the Catholic Hierarchy, to pronouce them GUILTY, unsympathetic, outmoded, old-fashioned, ultra conservative and a host of colorful yet unkind words. We likewise understand why they can't separate the good from the bad, the saintly priests from the not-so-saintly, the edifying and sanctifying teachings of the Church, her sacraments, and works of charity from those they can't agree with. We know where they are coming from, and as Christians we can only extend our compassionate understanding.

Still, we will walk with the Lord in His Church, and not force our will on his Church. We dare not reread the Scriptures solely on our personal authority no matter how learned we might be. For if we are as free as we want to be, then we would not be looking for the Church of God the Lord Himself established but something else of our own fashioning. We dare not pass judgment on the Church and Her leaders solely on the basis of our own personal experiences.

We will continue to walk with and towards the Lord and the Most Holy Trinity in His Church, in season and out of season, conforming our will and desires to the teaching of the Lord in His Church, working our salvation daily with our "faith working through love."

Jamie, It is unfortunate that

Jamie,

It is unfortunate that you feel you have no place in the church or no ability to make a contribution.

In reality, you are giving the hierarchy precisely what they want: power. You, a liberal Catholic, are a sad devotee of the old hierarchical model of the church. It is women like you, not the conservative old boys club, that grants to the Vatican its authority.
You equate power with the Roman leash and collar.
There is more to ministry than sacramental ordination. You should have learned that at divinity school.

You should have gone to a normal Catholic institution that grants lay people the MDiv.
There are plenty of real ministries out there for lay people. These ministries often have a great impact on everyday Catholics.

Priests are there just to dispense the sacraments. Bishops are there to keep things in line, do paperwork, and count pencils.
You sound like a gifted employee who is upset that you can never rise to be CEO.

The real work is to be done out in the world, not in an administrative job behind a desk.

Stop with the tired old cliche "I'm a woman and the church oppresses me." Really, its quite old, illogical, and unoriginal.

Obviously Clare has not read

Obviously Clare has not read any of the documents of Vatican II.

AMEN JAMIE!!! Your personal

AMEN JAMIE!!! Your personal story parallels mine in many ways. I received a Master of Arts in Specialized Ministry (social justice emphasis) from a Methodist Seminary. That experience really taught me so much about my faith as a Catholic and the rich traditions from other Protestant faiths. Too bad very few people walk the walk of ecumenism when they refuse to even dialogue with other denominations. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. I love your column.

Pax Christi
Rick Folker
Kansas City, MO

I bet you don't know that

I bet you don't know that John Paul II and Benedict XVI have put more work into ecumenism than any other popes. Except, they don't accept false ecumenism, the idea that Catholics must give up what we believe to accommodate others.

I could not agree with Jamie

I could not agree with Jamie more! I am not satisfied with the leadership in the Roman Catholic church, but I have been fortunate enough to find enough priests who are able to keep the core of this religion "alive" for me. By some miracle of sorts, there are three excellent priests in my parish, and the pastor outshines the others in his preaching and celebration of liturgy. If these priests move on, so do I! When we are left with only a majority of foreign born clergy (unable to assimilate, much less preach)I will seek out another religion. If you call me a "cafeteria" Catholic, I am deeply honored!

While we have a deep need for leadership in the image and likeness of John XXIII, we have been "clobbered" with Benedict XVI who is precisely the same man he was when he was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger advising John Paul II.

One final comment. NY has a new archbishop, Timothy Dolan. He is a man who seems very much in tune with updating the church, but his hands are tied. For this reason, he will be the type of leader who tells us to "go to hell" in such a way that we look forward to the trip.

In the "spirit" of

In the "spirit" of "inclusiveness" that came from Vatican II, I thought I would see what the Council Fathers wrote:
8. Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation (9*) through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element.(10*) For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body.(73) (11*)

This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth".(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

Just as Christ carried out the work of redemption in poverty and persecution, so the Church is called to follow the same route that it might communicate the fruits of salvation to men. Christ Jesus, "though He was by nature God . . . emptied Himself, taking the nature of a slave",(77) and "being rich, became poor"(78) for our sakes. Thus, the Church, although it needs human resources to carry out its mission, is not set up to seek earthly glory, but to proclaim, even by its own example, humility and selfsacrifice. Christ was sent by the Father "to bring good news to the poor, to heal the contrite of heart",(79) "to seek and to save what was lost".(80) Similarly, the Church encompasses with love all who are afflicted with human suffering and in the poor and afflicted sees the image of its poor and suffering Founder. It does all it can to relieve their need and in them it strives to serve Christ. While Christ, holy, innocent and undefiled(81) knew nothing of sin,(82) but came to expiate only the sins of the people,(83) the Church, embracing in its bosom sinners, at the same time holy and always in need of being purified, always follows the way of penance and renewal. The Church, "like a stranger in a foreign land, presses forward amid the persecutions of the world and the consolations of God"(14*), announcing the cross and death of the Lord until He comes."(84) By the power of the risen Lord it is given strength that it might, in patience and in love, overcome its sorrows and its challenges, both within itself and from without, and that it might reveal to the world, faithfully though darkly, the mystery of its Lord until, in the end, it will be manifested in full light.

Hang in there Jamie. Don't

Hang in there Jamie. Don't let any of these hypocrites tell you anything different.

Hypocrites? Are you speaking

Hypocrites? Are you speaking of the faithful who obey the Church?

Jamie's theology exemplifies

Jamie's theology exemplifies what it means to be a "cafeteria Catholic". She wants to claim all the good stuff... the desserts, the yummy entrees, the warm soothing beverages etc... and avoid the unpleasant, unappetizing food on the table. I haven't been able to be so duplicitous since realizing that to sit at the table only encourages and supports all those unsavory elements. And because God is bigger than the Catholic church, then leaving it doesn't separate me from the experience of God's grace or her invitation to celebrate the mystery of life. I can still care for the poor, pursue justice, seek peace, appreciate the art and poetry of the human soul, and contemplate mystery and spirituality that is accessible to all life but which the church co-opted and holds in ransom as part of it's need to control and corrupt.

I was a Catholic for the

I was a Catholic for the first 18 years of my life but have spent the majority of my years in Protestant churches. So I am very out of touch. I am finding my way back to my home Catholicism and have found that they are actually much more loving and accepting of human tendencies and weaknesses than are the Protestants. I have also learned that authority and hierarchy is for my good. I believe it is Christ, the Pope, the bishops, the priests who are beneath us ( not above us in this upside down triangular hierarchy) sacrificing themselves to lift us all up. But to comment after reading all of this. I think the Church loves people too much to allow them to continue to be less than Jesus would want them to be in their lives. So whether it is homosexuality, drunkennness, gluttony or any other sinful tendency I hope Catholicism or Christianity of any kind will never accept this in us but work side by side with us to continue to teach us purity, chastity, and self control and all the virtues so that as a person we become closer to who God created us to be before sin entered our lives. I believe as the Bible states that there are some living righteous lives by the grace of Christ, hopefully these are the pope and the bishops and priests who have learned to lay their lives down each day for others. I have my own tendencies which I plan to confess as soon as I again become Catholic but for mow I do on a daily basis in prayer. I am drawn to sin still but I definately know what sin is because the Word of God makes it very clear. Our consciences need to be examined for sin daily and once we identify these areas we need to pray and work hard to avoid the temptations. I have very good friends who are homosexual but they know that this is not Gods best for them. One girlfriend recently left her relationship to love a life devoted to Christ and I wish you could hear her testimony. So perhaps you should not judge too harshly the Catholic church, or any other after all we do not want to be judged ourselves and the Scripture says it is measured to us in the same manner we use. I pray you will forvive your Church and love her as Christ forgives you and loves you. But He also wants to perfect you from glory to glory.

Pretty much all of your

Pretty much all of your comments follow the same logical conclusion, "I don't like what the Church teaches regarding this...therefore the Church must bend to my wish...and if it doesn't I'm still Catholic... it is the Church that has abandoned me." Fundamentally, it is Christ and the structure of the Church, which he established, with which you have the problem. Many of you, I would posit, have issues with Jesus coming as a man. This or course would give less credibility to his message and his teachings and, of course, the hierarchical structure of his Church.

"For the Calvinist, humanity

"For the Calvinist, humanity is sinful and fallen, and God saves human beings in spite of themselves."

Actually, this was more St. Augustine and Martin Luther following him.

Is no one else concerned

Is no one else concerned about the anger of God fueled by His Justice in regards to sin, which is an offense to Him Who created us or did you also throw out the Old Testament along with the hierarchy of the Church? Do we reject approved apparitions such as Fatima and the diary of St. Faustina because they call for holiness and told of hell as a place where those who reject the revelations given to the Church are bound? The Blessed Virgin showing hell to two 7 year old and one 9 year old child at Fatima shows a serious nature to God some are just not accepting, to their eventual peril. The Church's teaching the past two thousand years is the product of the Holy Spirit and it is the same Holy Spirit that inspired the things you like as well as the things you don't like. To parse the acceptable and the unacceptable is to tell God OK to one thing and to say no to Him on another. The Humility of Christ in doing the Will of the Father is to be an example to us and the opposite, even if done out of love for neighbor, is sin as the love for God comes before the love for people. The love of neighbor is perfected in the love we give to God in that it doesn't become mere sentimentality. Anything less is just our own will, to the delight of Satan.

Are you actually asking

Are you actually asking adults to believe in a concept of hell shown to two 7 year olds and a 9 year old? Did you ever stop to thing that Mary could find no other conceptualization in the minds of these kids in which to present some rather profound messages?

The messages of mystics and visionaries are only as accurate as the information they have in their brains. When shown something out of their depth,they will automatically retreat to their own data banks to make sense of what they see. It can be no other way. This needs to be kept in mind when dealing with visionaries.

Most kids don't get serious unless it involves punishment.

Thanks for your essay. It

Thanks for your essay. It reminds me of many of the people I grew up with. It seems that you were raised in a Catholic milieu and can't separate yourself from it. We Catholics are not Protestants: we don't judge membership by agreement on theology. Hence, you don't have to be a Thomist to be Catholic. Instead, we are incorporated in one body through baptism. You'll never stop being a Catholic in some sense once you are baptized.

However, you owe it to yourself to further your education in Catholic teaching. It seems strange that you set yourself up against the hierarchy, as if they too didn't serve some purpose within the Church. Peter and his successors are given the task of strengthening the Church through the sacraments and the dissemination of doctrine. You don't have to be a Thomist to be Catholic, but you do have to agree with the Nicene Creed, and you do have to conform to the teachings of the Church as embodied in the Catechism. Rather than fight tired old battles from the Sixties over non-starter issues like women's ordination, perhaps the better response would be an attempt to understand why the Church teaches what it does - as St. Augustine might put it, "faith seeking understanding."

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