Relationships create church, not loyalty to the institution

"They disagree with the Roman Catholic Church’s stances on women, ordination, contraception, and gays and lesbians, but still, they remain faithful to their individual Roman Catholic parishes."

They are not faithful to their parish if stay within and dissent. If they dissent it is their right to do so, but they should have the integrity to go where their dissent is tolerated. I'm sure there is an Episcopal church nearby with plenty of empty pews.

"But as the institutional church becomes more and more "reactionary" in its teachings"

No Jamie the word you are looking for is not "reactionary" but rather faithful or perhaps consistent. What's reactionary is wanting to change doctrine after 2000 years because we find that our sins are uncomfortable to live with.

"In a church that is so "virulently" anti-women what does a woman have to lose in leaving the institution?

Ah yes "virulently" the gospel according to the rationalizer. All hail your conscience. Forget scripture, forget sacred tradition, forget Church teaching. If it doesn't suit Jamie it's wrong.

"So whether or not parishioners like their priests or agree with the teachings of the institution, they’ll stay for the sacraments that they receive through one another."

It's ok to not like your priest, but you have to agree with the teachings of the Institution or risk putting your soul in jeopardy by receiving our Lord unworthily. So as you take the sacrament just before you rush off to a lesbian pro choice rally, you are just adding one sin on top of another.

"Even if one is lucky enough to find a spiritual home within a Catholic parish, no Catholic should remain complacent as long as children of God are being "turned away" and spiritually harmed by the church in which they continually participate."

Who is being turned away? Is it turning someone away to tell them they are putting their soul in danger? It is turning someone away to say we do not condemn you, but you must "go and sin no more". No one is turned away, all are called, but sometimes the call includes the call to repent.

Jamie, I will keep you on my prayer list. I will pray for you, and for all you are leading astray.

After reading JP II's Theology of the Body, his Letter to Women, his Mulieris Dignitatem, I can't see how the Church can be called "so virulently anti-women."
I can't see, in a Church that exalts the Virgin Mary to the point it does (as the greatest part of creation!), how one could claim this.
Imagine a culture in which Christendom never stepped in to speak up for women's rights and their fundamental equality with men.
I think the Church is anti-women-who-want-to-be-the-same-as-men. Because it defends an authentic femininity.
Mike

If these people are faithful to their parishes you can bet the only kind of sermons they are hearing is "Jesus Loves!" There are plenty of bad priests in the Catholic Church today & the large majority of them are not abusers! I've had to tell off about 10 or so of them myself!

Nice comments, Jamie. Thank you. As an older priest I ended up working with an intentional community of some 50-60 people who had been coming to our former junior Seminary for over 30 to 40 years. Some started when it was still a functioning seminary and came because they were either teachers or parents of the students. Other came because they had started Vatican 2 reforms in their parishes and then got "squashed" by the existing Cardinal of the diocese at the time, so they began to search out a Mass where they could feel comfortable and accepted.

After the Seminary closed, and even after the Franciscans Province had to sell the property to help pay for some of the abuse cases that had occurred there, they kept coming. It was the sense of community which drew them. And still draws most all of them even after I got moved to a care facility out of the state. They had formed themselves into a non-profit organization for mutual care and support (on my advise) and were able to continue to rent the Chapel from the new owners when we sold it. And even now, after I had to move and the Franciscans did not allow for a replacement, they decided to simply continue the Community with some of the married priests who were long time members.

A few people left and joined a parish, but for the great majority the sense of being a part of their own small community was the most important thing.

Seems like a good illustration of what you are talking about.

3 words for the above response: primacy of conscience. I agree with the article.

Quote:

"how much more powerfully the parishioners spoke about giving Communion to one another than about the priest’s praying over the elements."

In my parish, I have a friend, who relishes the role of Eucharist Minister because of the tactile nature of the act.

We have a woman who seems to be EM at every Mass she attends, if you are assigned for that Mass but towards the back, she'll beat you to the santuary every time.

I am not thrilled by EMs who insist on addressing me by name.

I am not thrilled by EMs who insist on deep meaningful eye contact.

Can we not recall that the power of the Sacrament is far greater than the emotional bond with the EM / recipient. Can we not the power of grace in simply serving another, for the sake of service.

More broadly, that is the basis for whatever distrust I might have for the women's ordination movement. I simply dont feel comfortable someone who feels "personally called by God" or "inherently entititled" to the priesthood, no matter whether they are male or female.

Jamie, Thank you for this report, which I find to be true of my parish. Women love our parish, which has an empowered lay leadership and good priests who recognize the gifts of the laypeople among them. We tried the Episcopal church, and realized that we are more Catholic than anything, and there is dissent in every congregation. I believe disagreement without a need for consensus keeps us interesting and healthy. Women's ordination is a crime equal to pedophilia? Really? If we disagree, we need to relocate? Sorry, in the words of the lead in "Dreamgirls" "I'm stayin', I'm stayin' and you are going to love me."

Jamie, take me "astray"...or is that Calgon take me away? Whatever!

I wonder if God listens to prayers offered up in a patronizing manner?

Jamie, your article so very much captures my personal understanding of what being a Catholic truly is. Thank you from an "authentic feminine" Catholic. :)

The Church belongs to all Catholics equallly. Why do traditional/conservative Roman Catholics always encourage progressive Catholics to leave? IN the US, there are more "dissenting" Catholics in the RCC than compliant ones. Why should the majority leave?

http://tinyurl.com/3746aeq

I've had this quotation from Walter J. Burghardt, SJ, on my refrigerator more than 20 years:

"Let me make an uncommonly honest confession. In the course of half a century, I have seen more Catholic corruption than you have heard of. I have tasted it. I have felt it. But I JOY in this church - this living, pulsing, sinning People of God. I love it with a crucifying passion.

Why?

For all the Catholic hate, I experience here a community of love. For all the institutional idiocy, I find here a tradition of reason. For all the individual repressions, I breathe here an air of freedom. For all the fear of sex, I discover here the redemption of my body. In an age so inhuman, I touch here tears of compassion. In a world so grim and humorless, I share here rich joy and earthly laughter. In the midst of death, I find here an incomparable stress of life. For all the apparent absence of God, I sense here the real presence of Christ."

For those who have been baptized into Christ and who have become members of his Mystical Body, do not let ANYONE chase you out of the Church. In spite of everything, it remains the source of grace and the sacraments. Affirm your right to stay AND to dissent - and to pay attention to your own well-informed conscience. It's the truly Catholic thing to do!

For all your sincerity and passion, Jamie, I'm convinced that ultimately you're not on the right track.

Thanks kscrawler for the most lucid and intelligent point on this whole page.
It's time for the dissenters to go elsewhere. But that would require courage among other things...

I reading this article two years after the parish that was part of me for 23 years was suppressed and its members scattered. It's too bad none of the priests involved ever realized that it's not all about them!

Interesting but flawed. Your appeal to the importance of the community and the role of relationship is right on. However, the fundamental flaw in your reasoning is that you restrict these relationships only to your existing community. The Church as a Communion means that we ought to be in communion with the whole Church, not restricted by space and time, and certainly not restricted to my little parish or a circle of friends, with whom I happened to agree with.

No, the Church is not an intentional community. We are invited guests. Therefore we should not try to form the Church according to our own image or likeness (that would be rather narcissistic), rather we should let the Church (the Body of Christ) form us into God’s image and likeness.

Jamie, you make good sense and you are practical in writing about the disenfranchising of women, young people, gays and lesbians and those of us who yearn for the Church of Vatican II where fresh air was let into the room of the stuffy and out-of-date Church approaches to the laity. I understand how many prefer the comfort of the old way before the Council, but they should no act so santimonious in inviting out of the Church those who want a fairer and more Jesus-like-love for everyone as People of God, a phrase of the Council discarded by the right wing of the Church that does not want to elevate lay people that recognition. Three thousand bishops met in a Council and set down fresh rules. If a Council is of a rank with the Pope as head of the Church, how can one half vitiate the other? Who empowered Pope JPII to alomost totally ignore the teachings of Vatican II. For example: Freedom of Conscience. When was the last time the Vatican uttered a word of teaching about that liberating document of the Council? Why fear the free conscience?

Out of all the "young voices" columnists I enjoy reading Jamie the most. She is honest, and straight forward. She is the product of a liberal education and makes no efforts to hide it. I respect that, even though I disagree with everything she says.

She begins by quoting a liberal theologian Fr. Osborne who states "Jesus, the Church tells us, is present in the gathering of the community, in the proclamation of the word, and in the banquet of bread and wine..." while that is a true statement it is incomplete. If a science teacher said photosynthesis is made possible by sunlight, he or she wouldn't be wrong, but they wouldn't be a good teacher because they leave out the rest of the ingredients. Fr. Osborne first neglects the fourth way that the Church says Christ is present in the Liturgy, the priest. He also twists the words by saying "the banquet of bread and wine" the catechism simply says bread and wine. In other words, it is not in the eating in drinking, but in the substance which is eaten and drank.

I think this is very telling of liberal theology, it is very selective. It is used to say "something" it is not meant to stand on its own. Jamie herself alludes to this by her term "sacramental power" and that is what she boils the Eucharist down to, power. Because of this she sees a power struggle, between priests and laity, between hierarchy and subject, between liberal and conservative.

She even goes so far as to deny the Kingdom that Jesus preached, first by her politically correct, albeit stupid, use of 'kin(g)dom' and then saying that the Church has no definition, that it begins and ends nowhere. And yet, the message of Christ has always been about the establishment of a Kingdom and the call to live in Kingdom. There is a struggle and tension in the Gospel between those who answer the call to live in the Kingdom and those who don't.

The emerging Church that she refers to is really the same as the early heresies and the protestant rebellion. She fancies it to be something new, but in the end she will be left standing in the same pit.

Thank you for this article. It is spot on. What a nice note for me to go out on. I am no longer going to read the "comments" on the NCR articles.

Why?

Because I have grown weary of the Hate, and lack of tolerance by those who proclaim to be such good Catholics that they follow the letter of the law down to the last t crossed and i dotted.

You all know the ones. The ones who spew HATE, INTOLERANCE and proclaim that everyone else should leave the church.

Those people are not being very Christ-like nor are they doing what Jesus would do. They can hide behind their 'orthodoxy' all they want but hate is hate. Period.

Perhaps those who claim to be 'true' Catholics and follow every edict from Rome should stop and look in the mirror and see the hate and intolerance they spew. Until then, I'm done. The God I believe in, the Jesus I know would not treat others with such hate and intolerance and tell others who believe differently to go elsewher. If that is what it takes to be a Roman Catholic then I don't want anything to do with it - after 40+ years.

The author invokes a feel good spirituality, but the Church was also built up in an atmosphere of self-denial and ascetism. Where these values are present, the Church prospers. (e.g. Father Groeschel"s CFR congrgation,etc,)

A very astute observation from someone this young.

A very big schism is about to happen. The anger is there.

By the way many priests are sympathetic to the laypeople but keep quite to continue serving these people and to keep their jobs. The problem is that there is no real dialog. The great schisms in 451, 1054 , 16th and 19th centuries were more about other issues than just the doctrinal issues.

There are about 200 bishops in the United states with creditable apostolic lines and who are not in communion with Rome. Many have ordained women.

In the last few years we have seen whole parishes revolt against a bishop. We had a priest in Sacramento leave and become the Episcopal bishop. Some Episcopalians moved to the Roman church. Religious leaders should not appeal to blind loyalty but should follow the Master, who spoke with authority. His parables and stories were short and not like the 50 page encyclicals from Rome.

Interestingly, the person in the pew next to you may have attended a schismatic Mass the week before and is in the Roman church because it is most convenient. Even if the bishops kick them out, they may not leave. When I see the nasty hell and damnation replies to your articles, I realize that some people are really threatened.

Debates over these questions are pointless. Here's the sum total of what Christ is recorded to have said about gays, Catholic priests, ordination, and the creation of a hierarchical church: "(blank)." So who cares? Christ's unmistakable mission to humankind was to align himself with the poor, the poor in every sense, both material and spiritual. With so many among us dying of poverty, why divert one's self for a millisecond about ordination or other such man-created nonsense? You want "reproductive choice" and to feel better about same-sex, go right ahead. Your church teaches you're headed toward the flames. Disagree if you like -- it's your life and your eternal soul. Do you really think that if the Magisterium were to suddenly decree that your every desire may be fulfilled so long as it's done "lovingly" or with "commitment" or in "community" that these sorts of pronouncements would have any more meaning than those to the contrary do now? My advice is to stop being so egocentric and start living out the clear Gospel call.

1) "Virulently anti-women"?
I don't think so and I am a Catholic, professional, multicultural feminist. Not when God Himself selected a woman to send His Son into this world to redeem us. He depended on the fiat of a woman so that His divine plan would materialize. The Catholic Church has no authority to ordain women and that is an immutable fact. To state or imply otherwise is, in essence, to renounce one's Faith.

2) "their deepest connection with God came in two experiences: in the moment of looking into the eyes of the communicant and in the meal that they would share with members of the congregation after Mass"
In essence Protestantism! Definitely not Catholicism. Hence the dire need for re-evangelization.

3) Many Catholics need to regain what is known as interiority and this is applicable to all members of the Mystical Body. Cafeteria catholicism is what has caused the most harm to the Church, not the universal Catholic Church.

This hits home with me more than anything I've read in a long time. I've subscribed to NCR since the early 70s, think of myself as a loyal but unhappy Catholic, and this is the real reason I stick. I've gone through battles with bishops over the pastor we've been assigned twice, put up with all sorts of ridiculous things, but I still feel the need to be active as a parishioner. However, now almost 70, I frequently wonder if I will die an active member of the church.
Andrew Greeley once wrote something about the worse the church treats its members, the more stubbornly we stay members, and the last ten years have certainly put us to the test.

Thank you Jamie. Maybe "virulently" is too strong a word, but I agree our Church is anti-women. (And I wrote to my Bishop last year and suggested the same.) But I will not leave the Church because I love my parish, my other local parishes, and the people of our Catholic community in my rural western outpost. More importantly, I love and truly believe the faith tenets of our Church. Someday, the hierarchy will come around and recognize that "authentic" femininity can save the infrastructure.

With all these polemics on both the left and the right....do we ever talk aboutour personal relationship with Christ. We talk about what we want for the church, that we are church etc. Do we ever talk about Christ's will, with serving CHRIST?? Jesus said that if we love him, we would observe his commandments. Do we ever talk about what THAT means. I think that perhaps the collapse of Christianity and the crisis of the church has to do with the fact that no body cares about Christ. Its all about us.I think we are missing what really matters here. Perhaps Pope Benedict is right about a smaller, purer church-one where as in th early days men and women burn with love of Jesus and only seek His will. PLEASE PEOPLE this is not a battle etween democtrta and republican,labor and tory.

Noticed that the relationships that supposedly make the church are all between currently living humans. I always thought a relationship between the beleiver and Christ was paramount, and that a relationship with saints was important as well.

Oh dear, another " The Mass is all about us" article. Whilst the Mass indeed has human input, and it is nice to meet fellow Parishioners afterwards. The Mass is first and foremost about GOD, and his relationship with us.Remember the sequence the commandments came in!!

Thanks to all the women who commented here in a way that articulated what I struggled with. As a Catholic pro life woman with a family, I was recently told that the Catholic Church holds women as equals to men (I was told this by a young seminarian, male of course).

But yet it is the males who are defining the female experience, their roles, their purpose in life, and what it means to be feminine...oddly enough, without any input from the women themselves. If women were invited to participate in the discussion about THEMSELVES, perhaps things would be somewhat different in the church for them. Things are rather heavy handedly decided for them as though they do not have brains or as though males are all knowing and as such, can know what the feminine experience is (as if there is only one). As long as men continue to define the feminine experience, it no doubt will be a definition that serves these men's convenience and agenda very well.

Odd that a solely male dominated structure defines itself as a "she." Odd that a structure that focuses on the unitive and procreative is dominated by one sterile, celibate gender.

Jesus surrounded himself with women as well as men. Too bad the Church Hierarchy can't follow his lead.

Mary Daly died alone in a nursing home. What about 'relationsips'? Glenn Beck, who now fancies himself as a theologian, says Jesus is our INDIVIDUAL savior. Now who's Right? ;)

Dear Jamie,

I was really intrigued by your articled. I have been campaigning for gay marriage in my state & was really upset after Church with my 2 teenage daughters one day when the "Let Us Pray" guy said something about "Let us pray that the voters of this state will vote to keep marriage between a man & woman". I knew they would say something, but to bring the word "voters" into into it, I felt was "campaigning" at Church, which I felt was wrong & my daughters almost walked out of Church - it was all I could do to keep them there. My husband & I wrote to our priest afterward & asked how we are supposed to keep our daughters in the Church (marriage, their children someday, etc.) when they pull stunts like that. Of course, as usual, after stunts like that, no reply. We haven't had a decent priest here since my oldest was 4. Then, I go to campaign, & most of them don't get it either: most say "why don't you leave the Church". I could no sooner leave the Church than stop being American. And unlike your article, it's not really the community - most of them are a lot older & more conservative it seems, though nice on the surface, I can't talk to them (on a daily basis - not holidays - there kids & there families come then). It is just that my family IS Catholic. Our feeling - even my very much older family members who are stricter Catholics than I am but still believe in equality for all - is that we have just as right to be Catholic as the Pope & we are not leaving, ever. Being Catholic is part of who I am. I read once that during WWII that walking into a Jewish household, they would have an impossible time hiding the fact that they are Jewish, or that gay couples today would have a very hard time trying to hide the fact that they are gay (by saying "my roommate" or whatever). Well, I would have an impossible time hiding the fact that I am Catholic. Just from where I am sitting, I see 2 rosaries, 2 portraits of my daughters at 1st Communion, I am wearing Saint's medallions, etc. It's too many years of history & beliefs. However, I do have on my car a bumper sticker that says "Catholics for Marriage Equality". And I have to say there is practically nothing coming out of the Vatican that I believe in anymore. I don't believe in adultery, I always joke. When Catholic Charities in Boston stopped helping with adoption, being adopted myself and having one adopted child, just because their state passed a law saying that same sex couples can marry meaning same sex couples can adopt, that was really beyond the pale - not helping children?? That is too much!! In our state, though there is no same sex marriage, same sex couples can adopt, for example, if something happened to my husband & I, we could leave our children to my aunt & my mother. On another topic, I was hoping that a third world Pope would become Pope last time because he would understand the horrors of overpopulation on the starving children of the world & perhaps take a different stand on birth control. On another note, I don't really know what "TPTB" as they say, have against woman. I really don't know about a lot of issues facing the Church, but I guess I can't go on about them all day. Anyway, I've written way too much - my point is - there are a LOT of things wrong with our Church & not getting better. I think we stay because it is OURS & we have FAITH that someday things will change for the better. Your article was great - I never write to people like this - keep them coming!

Thank you for speaking a profound and beautiful truth I had yet been unable to articulate. It moved my greatly and strengthens me for the journey ahead that our church faces.

We cannot have Jesus without the reality he created and in which he communicates himself.
-Benedict XVI

Just a few words..

Jesus lived and died a pious, devout Jew.
Our church, Christian, not catholic was founded by Paul, if you need to point to a founder.

The comment about a properly formed conscience is ancient and rejected
theology. Vatican II came out strongly in favor of the Primacy of the
Human Conscience and the author of that was the present Pope who was then
a Periti.

Peace and Love to all, we could do with less incrimination and more sharing
and listening.

TomC.